Clown car cant be bolted down without a law 2 order even though it litterally was used to human harm

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technokek
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:27 am
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Clown car cant be bolted down without a law 2 order even though it litterally was used to human harm

Post by technokek » #615104

Context:

We had more then 10 Clowns. One of them bought clown car and they started riding it. Many human harm was commited with clown car.

Problem:

AI bolted down clown car to prevent it from riding arround and getting more people to harm them. It was very obvious the clown car was used to commit human harm. If the AI bolted the clown car down the harm of people in the room would be harmed since the clowns kept crashing into things to hurt everyone inside. If the AI did not bolt down the room the inaction of the AI would have also caused harm since they where still running into walls to harm the passengers but more people would be affected.

Admin then bwoinks AI saying " Something along the lines, you cant bolt down a clown car without a law 2 order"

Admins Ruling:
Here's the consensus: the clown car is not to be considered harmful until the driver displays clear intent to harm, for example the SM or space. It can be compared to a screwdriver: if applied to the eye socket it's dangerous. Does that mean you should remove all screwdrivers? Better get that N2O because you are not going to run out of these examples any time soon. Being ordered to bolt the clown car in is obviously fine to listen to, but so are orders to unbolt. The clown car itself does not harm, mishandling the car by crashing it and making people crash into eachother causes harm. This ruling is final, if you have any issues with it please open a policy discussion thread on the forums.

Question:
If the AI sees a clown car beeing used to commit human harm can it bolt down the clown car to stop the harm of more humans? The people bolted in the same room with the clown car will be harmed anyway and the AI cant do shit about it.

Ticket:
Spoiler:
From Ticket #3 during round 169776 on Terry
Ticket opened at 2021-09-17 19:03:55 by riggle
Log:
19:03:55: Ticket Opened by-riggle: Unbolt those doors, the clowns didn't harm anyone
19:04:12: Reply from-technokek: the clown car is harmfull please dont deny it
19:04:26: Reply from-riggle: Yeah, potentially in the future
19:04:41: Reply from-technokek: i can litterally see the harm on the health sensors
19:06:04: Reply from-technokek: a clown car running into a wall and kicking everyone out harms them they hit the wall multiple time. do you seriously not know this?
19:08:29: Reply from-riggle: If you want to go into that argument, opening the doors reduces collisions.
19:09:11: Reply from-riggle: Also, the car does not harm anyone. Clowns coliding into eachother do cause harm
19:09:15: Reply from-technokek: they run into walls tho??? hello??? and opening doors will just lead to more people getting sucked in and harmed????
19:09:32: Reply from-technokek: you are litterally making the guns dont harm people, people do argument
19:10:50: Reply from-technokek: the clown car is the direct reason why those people are colliding, how can you even try to imply that the car is not at fault here?
19:11:08: Reply from-riggle: Closing doors adds an extra wall, which will increase harm
19:12:11: Reply from-riggle: In this situation you should ideally wait for law 2 commands before doing anything; a law 2 to bolt them and a lw 2 to unbolt
19:12:18: Reply from-technokek: leaving the door open will get more people captured = more harm. And locking the clown car in a room will cause less harm then having it run arraund
19:12:35: Reply from-technokek: thats not how law 1 works
19:12:45: Reply from-riggle: More people potentially getting hurt, which is future harm
19:12:59: Reply from-technokek: i litterally saw harm via sensors
19:13:07: Reply from-technokek: how is that potential harm
19:13:51: Reply from-riggle: For the last time: closing doors adds harm. People that MAY get sucked in are potential future harm. Just wait for law 2s in that situation
19:14:34: Reply from-technokek: that makes 0 sence. if closing a door adds harm i coudnt even do it as you suggest under law 2. your argument is flawed
19:15:11: Reply from-riggle: It's a grey area. You should most likely just wait for law 2s.
19:15:17: Reply from-technokek: and again. I litterally saw them getting harmed, then i bolted doors, how is this potential harm.
19:15:27: Reply from-technokek: Where is that in silicon policy?
19:16:42: Ticket Opened by-technokek: Please show me any rule to support your statement. "You can harm humans when its a law 2" Because that is your argument. You say closing doors is harm, so i cant do it. But i can commit harm when i am ordered under law 2? How does that work?
19:18:17: Ticket Opened by-technokek: hello anyone home?
19:20:07: Reply from-technokek: Please show me any rule to support your statement. "You can harm humans when its a law 2" Because that is your argument. You say closing doors is harm, so i cant do it. But i can commit harm when i am ordered under law 2? How does that work?
19:23:55: Reply from-riggle: Bolting the doors only reduces potential future harm, it does not reduce the possibility of immediate harm. Driving around and picking people up doesn't really tell you anything and you can't assume harm. Driving towards space or the SM makes it different. Keeping them out of secure areas and alike of course still applies.
19:24:29: Reply from-technokek: But i litterally saw them harm people, is that completly irrelevant?
19:24:48: Reply from-riggle: And how does bolting the doors reduce immediate harm?
19:26:54: Reply from-technokek: it prevents the clown from picking up more people and harming them? And no that is not potential harm, the clown litterally commited harm and he showed no intention to stop so yes its NOT POTENTIAL harm, because there is a very good reason to belive it will continue happening?
19:27:33: Reply from-technokek: If security executes people i am also obliged to bolt them in, even tho its future harm they will commit?
19:28:47: Reply from-riggle: First of all, there were multiple clowns ordering multiple things. One of them caused harm, you can't label them all. Secondly, bolting the doors doesn't help the people already in the room. Bolting a security officer after an execution is also a bad idea, you're not supposed to take future harm into account; denying law 2s from them is fine.
19:29:39: Reply from-technokek: So a nukie with a esword that just murdered 3 people is supposed to let go? Because it will be future harm?
19:35:02: Reply from-technokek: also Silicon Policy litterally says, "If faced with a situation in which human harm is all but guaranteed (Loose xenos, bombs, hostage situations, etc.), do your best and act in good faith and you'll be fine. " and "Intent to cause immediate harm can be considered immediate harm. "
19:35:30: Reply from-riggle: Did the clowns intent to cause harm?
19:35:44: Reply from-technokek: yes? why else would he keep driving into walls?
19:36:18: Reply from-riggle: Accidentally perhaps?
19:36:39: Reply from-technokek: they litterally did it over and over again the same spot like 4 times.
19:45:12: Reply from-riggle: Here's the consensus: the clown car is not to be considered harmful until the driver displays clear intent to harm, for example the SM or space. It can be compared to a screwdriver: if applied to the eye socket it's dangerous. Does that mean you should remove all screwdrivers? Better get that N2O because you are not going to run out of these examples any time soon. Being ordered to bolt the clown car in is obviously fine to listen to, but so are orders to unbolt. The clown car itself does not harm, mishandling the car by crashing it and making people crash into eachother causes harm. This ruling is final, if you have any issues with it please open a policy discussion thread on the forums.
19:46:27: Reply from-technokek: funny how you say "mishandling the car by crashing it and making people crash into eachother causes harm" but then go on to say that the harm doesnt matter.
19:47:31: Resolved by Riggle
---- No futher messages ----
This ticket was generated by Statbus v.0.12.0
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Fishimun
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:29 am
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Re: Clown car cant be bolted down without a law 2 order even though it litterally was used to human harm

Post by Fishimun » #615105

honestly idk if clown car does damage to everyone on collision to wall but if it does then ASSIMOV ai is within full rights of halting clown car and bolting all doors just by the ruleset

Also this admin ruling can be skewed. you can technically open DOORS TO SM and it won't be harmful because clown car has no intent to harm anyone :) until it's too late that is
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CPTANT
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Re: Clown car cant be bolted down without a law 2 order even though it litterally was used to human harm

Post by CPTANT » #615112

Honestly Technokek already said everything in the admin pm's. It's obvious clown cars smashing into things causes harm and that bolting it down is a response well within the reasonable bounds of playing asimov.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Pandarsenic
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Re: Clown car cant be bolted down without a law 2 order even though it litterally was used to human harm

Post by Pandarsenic » #615114

The problem tbh is that if it causes harm by crashing into walls, you can't actually stop the harm, only minimize it or change when it happens marginally

The mere existence of a clown car is a no-win proposition for the AI and as long as the AI is trying to handle it in good faith, admins shouldn't be too harsh with it because literally what the fuck can you even do?
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Re: Clown car cant be bolted down without a law 2 order even though it litterally was used to human harm

Post by Rohen_Tahir » #615196

By the admin's logic the AI should obey an order to get a borg to fetch someone a desword. Deswords don't kill people, people kill people, cmon AI Johnson McTurtleneck just wants to reflect lasers.
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Agux909
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Re: Clown car cant be bolted down without a law 2 order even though it litterally was used to human harm

Post by Agux909 » #615198

Pandarsenic wrote:The problem tbh is that if it causes harm by crashing into walls, you can't actually stop the harm, only minimize it or change when it happens marginally

The mere existence of a clown car is a no-win proposition for the AI and as long as the AI is trying to handle it in good faith, admins shouldn't be too harsh with it because literally what the fuck can you even do?
An AI player can get in some nasty grey scenarios and be forced to stick to an intepretation to follow laws to the best of their ability, so I agree with this.

However, I don't see this particular admin being harsh in this case. They were level-headed in the ticket, presenting their own interpretation, and most likely just nudging the AI player to promote a more interesting outcome and conflict other than the car being bolted in for 10 minutes until anyone decided to show up and deal with it.
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Not-Dorsidarf
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Re: Clown car cant be bolted down without a law 2 order even though it litterally was used to human harm

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #615264

Agux909 wrote:
Pandarsenic wrote:The problem tbh is that if it causes harm by crashing into walls, you can't actually stop the harm, only minimize it or change when it happens marginally

The mere existence of a clown car is a no-win proposition for the AI and as long as the AI is trying to handle it in good faith, admins shouldn't be too harsh with it because literally what the fuck can you even do?
An AI player can get in some nasty grey scenarios and be forced to stick to an intepretation to follow laws to the best of their ability, so I agree with this.

However, I don't see this particular admin being harsh in this case. They were level-headed in the ticket, presenting their own interpretation, and most likely just nudging the AI player to promote a more interesting outcome and conflict other than the car being bolted in for 10 minutes until anyone decided to show up and deal with it.
Well, in that case the admin ought to have been clear that this was a "Lighten up, buddy, we're all here to have a good time" pm , and not tried to twist it into silicon policy "You can't lock down a clown car without a law 2 order" direct order, let alone the "Closing doors at all is increasing harm so you cant do it ever but I say you should do it if asked :)."
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NamelessFairy
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Re: Clown car cant be bolted down without a law 2 order even though it litterally was used to human harm

Post by NamelessFairy » #617021

AIs can lock down clown cars at their discretion unless told otherwise by their laws

Under Asimov, whether or not to lock down a clown car falls under law 2. Exceptions include the AI should prevent the clown car getting into locations that'll cause harm (Supermatter Chamber, Space, etc), and the AI should not close airlocks/firelocks directly infront of a clown car, doing this would likely cause direct harm. Both exceptions would fall under law 1.

Headmin Votes:
NamelessFairy: Yes
Dragomagol: Yes
RaveRadbury: Yes
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