How IC are Prayers?

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Hulkamania
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How IC are Prayers?

Post by Hulkamania » #615909

Recently while discussing the topic of prayer bans on the discord, RaveRadbury had this to say:
Prayers are an IC action that receives an IC response

If a player is abusing prayer they are opening themselves up to admin fuckery up to and including full round removal

I could even see kick being a divine intervention of some kind

If they aren't getting the message at that point, idk, might be time for a general rule 1 talk or a talk about how spam is unwelcome here
Whether or not prayer bans are a good thing, I take interest in the "IC action" line.

When I was trained, I was told prayers WERE strictly IC, and anyone behaving outside that was opening themselves up to a smite or something along those lines. However the trend I've seen in the last year or two is that prayers exist in a nebulous space between IC and OOC. Chaplains will do prayer rituals to try to get your attention, but some players will use it to ask for a TC trade, admins will use it to talk directly to their friends, and sometimes players will use it to add something to an ahelp that they forgot to say.

There are other means of players speaking IC to admins, namely the communications console. This comes with a hefty warning that if you're using it frivolously you're opening yourself up to retribution from the administrators. Prayers operate the same way and yet carry no such warning, and indeed anyone can pray at any time, including while dead or without having joined the round.

Punishments for making stupid prayers are usually just relegated to a light smite like shoe knots, or sending them a cookie to recognize that you saw them type a thing but choose not to respond to it. This is vastly based on culture however and not any particular precedent other than admins watching other admins. This is also how OOC prayers came to be I would imagine, with admins assuming it's okay because other admins let it slide. Culture shifts happen and I get that, but if the headmins are saying one thing (as Rave did) and the server is acting in another way, there's a discrepancy.

So I ask, how IC are prayers? Beyond that, how IC SHOULD prayers be?
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #615926

Is it necessarily a bad thing if they're nebulous? Only admins are going to be seeing the prayers anyway, so it's not like ooc in prayers is going to disrupt anything, while having IC responses allows humorous responses to "stupid shit" prayers.
I don't see anything wrong with letting people pray however they want, with the knowledge that if they're acting like a moron or spamming prayers they'll get slapped for it.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Rohen_Tahir » #615928

anyone can pray at any time, including while dead or without having joined the round.
That's probably a bug.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Hulkamania » #615930

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:16 pm Is it necessarily a bad thing if they're nebulous? Only admins are going to be seeing the prayers anyway, so it's not like ooc in prayers is going to disrupt anything, while having IC responses allows humorous responses to "stupid shit" prayers.
I don't see anything wrong with letting people pray however they want, with the knowledge that if they're acting like a moron or spamming prayers they'll get slapped for it.
What is the harm in allowing anyone to say OOC things out of character? Yes it's arbitrary but there has to be a line at some point in the chain. The fact is it's an IC tool through all in game circumstances (someone actually saying a prayer to a higher power) and as such doesn't make sense to be speaking to an admin out of character.

If you wanted to speak to an admin out of character, you should be using ahelps, OOC, or deadchat. We have three seperate tools available, instead people use it as a way to speak directly to admins and sometimes even get commentary on what's going on in the round "did you just see that?" or "why would they do something like this?"

Admins are probably more guilty of this than players themselves. I've personally witnessed plenty of admins talking to their admin buddies OOC, but they often divert into conversations about the ongoing round, even if it's limited to things like what I just mentioned.

THIS is why it's bad to have them in a nebulous state, because the more you treat it like your personal semi-private line to talk to your best buds the more it encourages things that start to skew towards favoritism and special treatment.

Speaking of, I've also seen this lead into admins spawning things in for their friends. Usually harmless stuff like pies or a simple mob, but even if you consider these micro-interventions as "events" then other players should have equal opportunity to experience them, rather than your administrative friends. Prayers are a direct line to all these things happening.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Farquaar » #615931

I think there shouldn't be a hard and fast rule as to whether it's IC or OOC: it all depends on context. If it ain't broke, don't fix it eh?

Generally speaking though, I feel like if your prayer is phrased OOC (i.e. "dear mods") you open yourself to more admin memery than if you were praying to Space Jesus or the Honkmother.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by RaveRadbury » #615936

There are some functional exceptions to the idea of exclusively IC prayers, largely having to do with things that we don't want clogging the tickets.

The two examples that immediately come to mind are antag giveaways (pray a number between 1 and 10) and song requests.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by PKPenguin321 » #615940

my prayer isn't "not IC enough," you're just discriminating me based on my religion.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by spookuni » #615941

Didn't know this thread was put up so reposting from admin chatter (wew leaks oh no)

One thing that I do think is a bit of a minor thing when talking about prayers IC vs just talking to admins is that we don't really have a better way of talking to admins or conveying low priority messages than with prayer, there's a lot of minor stuff that, for better (oh hey look I found this low priority bug or glitch keep an eye out for it) or worse (how was your day admin who is my friend who I can see in adminwho) that's both a message for admins and low priority (and thus unneeding of the big bwoink noise of distracting people who might be in the middle of something genuinely important) and there's no real better way than prayer to shoot those messages across

In my opinion, if we want to reassert strict IC status for in character prayers (something I am not at all opposed to), it would help a lot to have some other explicitly OOC method for communication with online admins. Ideally a separate message would have the same public logging (Prayers are, to the best of my knowledge, not considered an admin channel and are thus publicly logged) and would take the place of prayer for non-spammy / low-priority messages for admins. Because as much as IC prayers are great and I love them, at the moment I'd rather people pray their OOC comment about coders and genturfs than get 7 different ahelp tickets about how icebox popped a genturf in a place easily viewable by players again.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Mothblocks » #615943

I'm part of the new culture around OOC prayers, and I think it's pretty harmless and I disagree that they should be exclusively IC.

OOC prayers are useful in that they're always available, but also are made without intent on actually expecting a response. If I pray "did you see that", and they didn't, they just don't respond, and neither of us care since there's no residue (such as a leftover ticket). If they did "see that", I get to share a cheeky moment with someone that I probably won't care enough to bring up later.

Furthermore, prayers are so inconsequential (most people have the sounds off, I figure) that enforcing them as "strictly IC" sounds, above all things, pointless. If someone is constantly spamming prayers, I can prayer mute them that round. However, if we want to hold them to a stricter standard, I now have to either note bad prayers (which feels super petty), or do harsher smites than knotting shoes, which also feels petty.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Hulkamania » #615945

None of that post addresses the fact that issues can arise from people treating prayers like their own personal private line to their admin buddies. I also don't know where anyone is getting the idea that this was every about prayers being "Strictly IC" the thread title is clearly "how IC are prayers?"

There are cases inbetween such as using prayers as a means to give out antag, but outside that circumstance it is functionally an IC property. As mentioned before, you are literally praying to the gods, you are not looking up to the sky to the gods themselves and going "lmao did you see that new jerma video bro."

Moreover using prayers to communicate candidly with admins in an OOC manner while still being in game gets kind of borderline when viewed through the lens of how we treat talking about an ongoing round in general. An ahelp is a designated OOC place to talk about OOC things, deadchat is OOC where you can talk about the ongoing round. If you were to go on discord and DM an admin something about an ongoing round that wouldn't be allowed, but using a prayer to seek their commentary about an ongoing round in an OOC fashion somehow is. It's horribly inconsistent and as much as we'd like to say admins are above doing such thing, as I've pointed out multiple times in this thread they're usually the biggest culprits.

If there's a bug or something that's ahelp material because all an admin can even do about it is maybe give you a fix, which needs to be done through a ticket. If you want to ask how an admins day was you can do it in OOC or do it outside the game.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Cobby » #615949

Prayer is pretty much deadchat tier lines between admins. I would consider it a *MORE* IC way of communicating with admins and brings down the chance of holy retribution when you’re not sending admins big bwoinks for something silly like a free revive.

We don’t tell people to knock it off for asking IC stuff in the OOC communication to admins either. Maybe we should (?) but it seems like this is gonna be a thread where we muddy the waters on if it’s asking for what the current stance is compared to what the stance SHOULD be.

I’d like prayers to be visible to ghosts long term so I personally don’t mind if we agreed to nudge people to use both appropriately.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Armhulen » #615959

The current stance is roll a d6 for each admin on the team and 1-2 means they think it's ic, otherwise they think it's ooc

i hope there's a ruling on it
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Booktower » #615961

Mothblocks wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:35 am OOC prayers are useful in that they're always available, but also are made without intent on actually expecting a response. If I pray "did you see that", and they didn't, they just don't respond, and neither of us care since there's no residue (such as a leftover ticket).
Absolutely this, I've always had prayers muted personally

I don't see how smites for shit prayers are petty though, if someone ahelps "cat vore" 1-2 times every round they certainly deserve it
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Booktower » #615962

Hulkamania wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:54 am None of that post addresses the fact that issues can arise from people treating prayers like their own personal private line to their admin buddies."
Could you elaborate on these issues, as I don't really see them?
Hulkamania wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:54 am Moreover using prayers to communicate candidly with admins in an OOC manner while still being in game gets kind of borderline when viewed through the lens of how we treat talking about an ongoing round in general. An ahelp is a designated OOC place to talk about OOC things, deadchat is OOC where you can talk about the ongoing round. If you were to go on discord and DM an admin something about an ongoing round that wouldn't be allowed, but using a prayer to seek their commentary about an ongoing round in an OOC fashion somehow is. It's horribly inconsistent and as much as we'd like to say admins are above doing such thing, as I've pointed out multiple times in this thread they're usually the biggest culprits.
Ahelps are OOC Communication that can be about the current round(IC things). Admins are trusted not to share information in ahelps, and ahelps can be very casual at times. There is nothing wrong with this, we're social human beings who appreciate communicating with each other, not robots.
Hulkamania wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:54 amIf you were to go on discord and DM an admin something about an ongoing round that wouldn't be allowed, but using a pray er to seek their commentary about an ongoing round in an OOC fashion somehow is.
DMing an admin on Discord wouldn't be a huge deal at all, especially if they're unable to ahelp(for technical reasons or simply not being aware of it) or otherwise have reason not to do so in-game. If you can't handle someone DMing you ooc information how can you handle OOC information gotten while being a ghost (and getting revived later or becoming a ghostrole that could act on the OOC knowledge)?
You obviously can't trust people, but you don't need to treat admins like they're not to be trusted either. Personally I find this pretty unfortunate & insulting.
If you want to ask how an admins day was you can do it in OOC or do it outside the game.
Doing it outside the game makes it not associated in logs which is clearly much worse for finding admins revealing meta information, which you seem to be worried about.


Personally to me it seems like you're trying to stick to rules for the sake of rules rather than being pragmatic.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Fikou » #615963

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:16 pm Only admins are going to be seeing the prayers anyway
they are in parsed logs, anyone can view them after the round ends
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Booktower » #615964

I'd also like to add that to my knowledge Skyrat trusts everyone with respawns etc. because players there don't act on Information their Character didn't obtain IC. It's honestly not that difficult to discard Information you (perhaps unintentionally) gained through OOC means.
Speaking of, I've also seen this lead into admins spawning things in for their friends. Usually harmless stuff like pies or a simple mob, but even if you consider these micro-interventions as "events" then other players should have equal opportunity to experience them, rather than your administrative friends.
I can't tell whether this is a case of "Hey can I have x" where x is incredibly minor which some admins might simply do for anyone or if there's an actual issue with certain admins that should have been brought up.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Misdoubtful » #615968

Armhulen wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:28 am The current stance is roll a d6 for each admin on the team and 1-2 means they think it's ic, otherwise they think it's ooc

i hope there's a ruling on it
When it comes to prayers I ALWAYS liked and stuck to the Paradise approach (for the most part).

Snipping out the unrelated:
1) Don't confuse prayers with ahelps, [...] etc.
2) In general, don't pray for obvious material aid, especially aid that compensates for your mistakes.
3) Put effort into your prayer.
4) Understand that there are many gods, and they range from friendly, through hostile, to insane. You have no idea which god will get/answer your prayer.
5) Understand that praying "I am bored" will result in terrible things happening to you.
6) The gods do not care if you are a Chaplain, or Clown.
7) Good results from prayers are not always obvious.
8) Watch out for hints after praying.
9) 'Eat what you are given, improv'
10) [...]
11) Don't treat prayers as get-out-of-jail-free cards.

https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/t ... to-prayer/
Prayers being full of hot garbage without any kind of recourse just ends up diluting the prayer pool with low quality and no inspiration to answer them. They already kind of suck because they get lost in the chat feed (but that's beyond the point), so why encourage prayers being as lackluster as possible by turning something that is for all intents and purposes IC into some kind of OOC hotline? It would just give me even less reason to consider attempting to read them.

As Hulk said if you want to chat with admins, deadchat and OOC are available. If you REALLY want to chat one and one with your favorite admin, slide in their dm's idk, its not that hard.

I for one would rather see good prayers practices being encouraged.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by iamgoofball » #615969

I use prayers for two things.

Extremely long religious based shitposts, and to append extra information to an ahelp I just filed that I forgot to put in and hasn't gotten a response yet.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Cobby » #615971

If we can allegedly trust admins to actively play and receive information about the round they shouldn’t have (to which they play in such a way that is different than how they normally would but it’s ok) then from a consistency point I don’t see an issue, especially when it’s framed around the original goalpost that prayers are being used to gm their admin bros.

While I think more IC variants of prayers should follow the above guidelines, I don’t have an issue with more ooc topics being discussed there as well. Like I said it’s on par with deadchat, with the added bonus that prayers can’t be infiltrated ICly like deadchat can.

Again that’s not to say can we can’t edit that but just removing it for the sake of IC Purity when it isn’t even player facing until post round seems silly.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Yuki » #615972

It use to be strictly IC and if you weren't role-playing or funny then you were ignored. Recently a few admins have replied with ooc terms like lol, it is a pet peeve of mine because admins are supposed to enforce those same rules during rounds. Also had some great responses too which led to making the round more enjoyable.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #615981

Fikou wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:02 am they are in parsed logs, anyone can view them after the round ends
Mm, but I meant in relation to the ongoing round. Everyone can see antags once the round ends, but knowing that out-of-character information while the round's going on is different from hearing it after or outside of the "rp experience".


Booktower wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:57 am
Hulkamania wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:54 am None of that post addresses the fact that issues can arise from people treating prayers like their own personal private line to their admin buddies."
Could you elaborate on these issues, as I don't really see them?
Considering prays are apparently in parsed-logs I don't have to worry about leaking here
I've seen it happen more than a couple times in one round - wubli asked us (me and a few other admin candidates + two other admins who were on with us) on sybil once if we noticed anything different about her character in the past week, as well as some general back-and-forth between another candidate

I'm not trying to throw any shade at all towards either of the people involved in this, wubli's great and my fellow candidates are great as well. Hell, I responded to that initial prayer about noticing anything different. (Jill's wearing a suitskirt now) (amazing) But it does happen every so often.

As the person who DID respond with "is there anything wrong with prayers necessarily being somewhat ooc" I think that chatting with admin buddies is fine so long as it's not disruptive to the overall round flow, and worries about "potential preferential treatment" are probably unfounded - we trust the admin team to be unbiased, if someone's abusing one system to be preferential to their favorites they are probably not going to last very long on it.

EDIT
To build specifically on that "chatting with admin buddies" thing because I know it's bound to be contentious: if you're a player and expected to do something (being a head, being a silicon, even being in a somewhat-vital job) and instead sitting around and chatting with your admin buddies, that's disruptive. But if you're just an assistant and choosing to talk with your friends who you know are adminning instead of friends who are beating each other with toolboxes in maint, I don't see what's necessarily "wrong" with this, so long as the admin(s) responding aren't interrupting what we're expected to be doing in order to go and respond back. Just like nobody's going to complain if a bunch of assistants dogpile around the dorms table and chat with each other about books or people or experiences in this wacky wild game, I don't think people should necessarily complain about just talking with friends through prayer. If that evolves into preferential treatment or something more, there's reason to be concerned, but alone I'm not sure what the problem is.
Last edited by Omega_DarkPotato on Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Fikou » #615982

id argue prayers being in parsed logs is one of the reasons why they should be IC, there's some personal information being shared sometimes especially with admins talking to their friends that anyone can read
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Booktower » #615985

iamgoofball wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:00 pm I use prayers for two things.

Extremely long religious based shitposts, and to append extra information to an ahelp I just filed that I forgot to put in and hasn't gotten a response yet.
Please don't append to tickets like this, it's very likely to get lost and won't be logged like the ticket as well
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Booktower » #615988

Fikou wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:41 pm id argue prayers being in parsed logs is one of the reasons why they should be IC, there's some personal information being shared sometimes especially with admins talking to their friends that anyone can read
This is a very good point, but I think this should be dealt with by simply making people, especially admins, aware of it rather than culling friendly chatter. I think it's vital that people have channels for 1 on 1 casual chats outside of Discord, people like to be social and have friends, and this is an important aspect of the game(Heck, we get some of the admin candidate suggestions and denials this way).
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Misdoubtful » #615991

I mean yeah it's not exactly the most damaging thing in existence, but is it really the best use of the prayer system?
Booktower wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:05 pm
Fikou wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:41 pm id argue prayers being in parsed logs is one of the reasons why they should be IC, there's some personal information being shared sometimes especially with admins talking to their friends that anyone can read
This is a very good point, but I think this should be dealt with by simply making people, especially admins, aware of it rather than culling friendly chatter. I think it's vital that people have channels for 1 on 1 casual chats outside of Discord, people like to be social and have friends, and this is an important aspect of the game(Heck, we get some of the admin candidate suggestions and denials this way).
This isn't a good means for a 1 on 1 chat though, and I'd be worried if admin candidate related things were being tossed into a log like that.

Being social is great, using a quality social medium that fits the topic is better.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by SkeletalElite » #616038

Make prayers visible to dead chat, biggest issues are solved by immediate and obvious transparency.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by HommandoSA » #616043

I treated prayers as IC but was fairly lenient with what I'd tolerate. People who did prep work by setting up rituals were more likely to get a prayer response and people who just begged for antag or gamer gear were ignored. Players should avoid using OOC terms / internet shorthand and anyone spamming prayers should expect divine retribution. I think it's okay if someone wants to get an admins attention by saying "look at this" but they don't feel like it's important enough to open a ticket.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by MrStonedOne » #616050

Hulkamania wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:24 pm There are other means of players speaking IC to admins, namely the communications console. This comes with a hefty warning that if you're using it frivolously you're opening yourself up to retribution from the administrators. Prayers operate the same way and yet carry no such warning, and indeed anyone can pray at any time, including while dead or without having joined the round.
the barrier to fuckary is different for the two.

pray 'hello'
and
coms console 'hello'

will get two wildly different responses.
Rohen_Tahir wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:31 pm
anyone can pray at any time, including while dead or without having joined the round.
That's probably a bug.
nope. in fact a old trend for event fuckary before the admin tools to ask ghosts if they want to control a mob existed, used to be to say in deadchat "prey for fun" and just pick from the incoming preys.
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Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by Hulkamania » #616109

This is probably splitting hairs but the pray command is also in the IC tab FWIW
the barrier to fuckary is different for the two.

pray 'hello'
and
coms console 'hello'

will get two wildly different responses.
If anything I think this is only a result of how ubiquitous trash prayers are versus how much effort it takes to get to the console. Most console interactions I see are still just people getting smited for doing dumb shit they shouldn't be. Also the vast majority of times an admin interacts with them they're either forced to keep communicating with "centcom" via prayer or wait for the cooldown, which isn't useful for back-and-forth conversations.
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NamelessFairy
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 pm
Byond Username: NamelessFairy

Re: How IC are Prayers?

Post by NamelessFairy » #617394

Prayers can be used as both an IC and OOC method of communication, examples of what is allowed include but are not limited to: Praying to god ICly, Praying to admins to look at the cool thing you made/did, asking for TC trades. However treating prayers as a chat channel to hold OOC conversations with admins is not allowed and admins should refrain from engaging in extended conversations over prayers.

Headmin Votes:
NamelessFairy: Yes
Dragomagol: Yes
RaveRadbury: Yes
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