[MRP] Triple Threat: Powergaming, Powergaming as Sec, and Powergaming as Antag

[Yulice]

I've been told numerous times to make a policy thread about this, and after about a month of crazy insane rounds, I've finally decided to bite the bullet. MAY be a bit of an ided post, but I do feel like some of these issues need to be addressed or clarified.

Guess we'll start off with Powergaming in general; what is and isn't constituted as powergame for the general masses? Using things from your department? Using things that are easily obtained and distributed to the crew, like mutations and xenobiology extracts, or doing bounties and using your private funding to order from cargo? As a round drags on, these things will naturally become more and more mass produced, and easily distributed amongst the general population of the crew. To the point where I see a cargo tech in a SWAT suit with red slime on it at two hours in and I don't bat an eye. There's also things about having things that aren't from your job; for example, a cargo tech or security officer with surgical tools. A lot of jobs tend to have other people fill in to help anyhow if there's holes, IE people heading to engi to set up the SM despite not being engineers. What is and isn't ok for the GENERAL crew to hold?

Next up, I'd like clarification on Security. They are by design the first line of defense against any form of antagonist, and, (in my opinion) are generally ill equipped from the start of the shift to handle ANY antagonist. They generally are at a disadvantage because most of their equipment is restricted behind toxins experiments, which can be extremely hard to do unless you metagame the fuck out of it and do sci's job for them, as discussed in the previous section. On top of that, they are generally expected and encouraged to detain antagonists nonlethally as often as possible, which is another thing that can be easily exploited and can cause things to get out of hand quickly. While I understand sec is supposed to be a team and work together, it shouldn't just be a massive numbers slog where you zerg rush down every antag with 5 secoffs, either, and if one of the officers is green or 'unrobust', it makes the round a lot more unfun and difficult for security and everyone in general as the antag now has access to stun batons, and the caveat of being able to just murder you after they put you into stam crit.

Which brings me to the last bit; powergaming as an antag. Rules are generally laxer on antagonists since it's a "once every five or ten rounds" per person, but for anyone who isn't an antag they get to deal with that EVERY round, just from a different person. Antagonists already have access to lots of powerful gear or abilities inherently via uplinks or powers, and most of these on the zanier antags that aren't a Syndicate Traitor can't even be stripped away from them. Combine that with having no limit on basically stealing as much as you want for yourself, and then being able to kind of loophole around the murder baiting rule simply by aggravating people via stealing or having absolutely massive amounts of contraband, and you have antagonists who are either goading sec into fighting them purely by existing, or quietly snowballing into an unstoppable force before they finally go loud.

Granted, this is mostly only for Manuel, since a lot of the LRP servers are full of people who ALL engage in this behavior, so it's "fair" in a sense. But on the MRP servers if someone is caught slacking they essentially eat shit and don't get to play anymore, and interesting gimmicks or storylines can be cut short purely because someone wasn't constantly on edge. Sorry for rambling a bit, but I guess to make a tl;dr, is this:


What is and isn't ok to do as general crew and as sec, and can we have some policy affecting grabbing up as much gear as you can possibly hold as an antagonist when you already have access to numerous other tools?

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I think antags should be beholden to the same rules about powergaming. The traitor has his uplink and a whole bunch of things he can grab from his department. It can become rather excessive when, to look at a round that just happened, you have a Changeling Gangleader who killed and disintegrated the Wizard using his cohort of 12 dudes, and then runs around with his full suite of Changeling abilities AND Mjolnir.

We regularly wind up in situations where antags get as much gamer gear as possible and just silently go around killing people. While this is fine on LRP, that's the very thing that a lot of people come to Manuel to avoid. I don't mind losing. But what I don't like is when it's just "heehoo I've got every piece of gear ever, now I'm going to silently kill you without any interesting interaction" that's not really what I'm here for. Manuel provides the opportunity for interesting stories. I laugh about the story where a dude came up to me and said he found contraband, and when I asked him to show it to me, he magdumped his revolver into my head. Man was hilarious, and made the round interesting.

It's one thing if an antag is being chased by Sec and he gears up occasionally. I don't wanna say that there shouldn't ever be any risk of someone grabbing the Captain's Antique. But there're some people who every single round, they grab as much as possible, and then just ride that power. It's not interesting, and it becomes clear that all they're here to do is rack up as many kills as they can legally get away with because they know that the people on this server aren't allowed to prepare enough to stand a chance.

It's bad faith, through and through.

(I can predict that there'll be the question raised that "Well then Security and just go around dunking on them" to which- yeah, then we've got the opportunity for policy (if we even need that) for Security to not just instantly resort to MURDER DEATH ROUND REMOVE on every single antag.)

[Exavere]

Are we sure that we want this? I've already seen Security powergaming, albeit it lightly, before as well as the fact that not every single antag powergames to the max - so if Security is allowed to go gamer and antags cannot then it's going to be the same situation but reverse. If we prefer to go this route I recommend making it so that no one can powergame, not Security nor Antagonists, to keep things on a level playing field. Or to make it so both sides can do what they please to deal with the other perhaps. The amount of allowed powergame is also going to be very subjective admin to admin, from my own experience, and it's going to be an even bigger grey area because you have to factor in amassed mechanical advantage combined with Antag Specific Equipment. Pairing the allowed limit of all that Antag Equipment with the endless possibilities of powergame is going to be an administrative headache and will never be rock solid because of the massive grey area involved not just admin to admin but term to term - I know this from experience and the constant discussions on whether or not a certain amount of gamer gear was allowed and it's always been split 50/50 unless it's extremely excessive and very obvious.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Are we sure that we want this? I've already seen Security powergaming, albeit it lightly, before as well as the fact that not every single antag powergames to the max - so if Security is allowed to go gamer and antags cannot then it's going to be the same situation but reverse. If we prefer to go this route I recommend making it so that no one can powergame, not Security nor Antagonists, to keep things on a level playing field.

Security already isn't allowed to powergame. They're not allowed to use contraband unless it's a Station Critical situation, and even things like arming up with a shotgun and a bunch of tech shells will get you bwoinked, even if they're not used. Doing this would do precisely that. Levelling the playing field.

[NecromancerAnne]

Don’t use OOC information or knowledge that your character would not reasonably be aware of just to give yourself an advantage.
Do not powergame. Powergaming is gearing up or preparing in other ways to face an issue that is not related to your job and is not currently a credible threat. Someone going missing on the station, and then you making a stunprod to wield whenever you go into maint is powergaming. However; knowing there have been murders occurring across the station, and grabbing a stunprod while you go to fix wires in maint is fine.

We can answer this in sequence of each question.

1) Powergaming in general: this is succinct in what it outlines as powergaming. So long as you believe that you have a credible threat to your safety, and you need some protection to continue to conduct your job (and staying in your lane while doing so), you can take measures for self defense that are reasonable. A prod is reasonable to prod and run. A killmix as a paramedic not so, because that's just validhunting and effectively vigilante justice. You're doing someone else's job and taking away opportunities from sec.

2) Powergaming as security: Your role provides plenty of tools to deal with threats. Security can access weapons, protections and has metatrust with the station and each other. They have EVA gear and plenty on hand to protect themselves. Gearing up beyond say meds or supplies given to you by crew (like Quadsecs for healing or durathread gear if need to squeeze in a bit more defense) isn't necessary until you need to deal with a threats conventional security gear cannot resolve. Identifying a threat and retreating to gear is entirely a reasonable suggestion and expectation for a role already granted a very hefty measure of power. You should not need more until then. But it should be to resolve obvious problems. Getting lasers for hulks is obvious. Getting an elance to instantly game end any threat period is not.

3) Powergaming as antagonist: Your role is to resolve your objectives and not get caught. To inject a bit of spice into the round. This means that realistically, countering security is within the bounds of this, as dealing with security is a part of your role. Having exit strategies and pressing your advantages is to your benefit in fulfilling your role as a threat. But it should be in service to completing your objective. If the crew is out for blood, there should be no reason that you are disallowed to escalate further, of course, but this should be adapting to the situation as it unfolds. The secret to success in the game is obviously not to show your hand all at once, but if your opponents are meeting your tricks with tricks of their own, this can definitely feel like an arms race. Especially when it goes from say 'you use ecombo, they all go in with elances because one hit is enough and you cant disable them all before they game end you and themselves in the act'.

Realistically, what is being asked is 'should we be playing by our opponents rules when matching their potential threat level', and the answer should be 'no just be reasonable'. We shouldn't be encouraging escalating arms races beyond answering problems the other side presents. Often this results in a lot of grievances and expectations that any threat should be stamped out with maximum force. This is possibly why Families has been having trouble on MRP. Everything is being escalated way too heavily.

Basically too many dweebs are scared of losing and you need to just chill the fuck out. Adapt as the round evolves, don't just start a checklisting powers when any threat presents itself.

[confused rock]

Why is it that other departments can get better equipment for their job, miners can get a fucking cleaver saw thing that's better than any lethals security can get, before something happens, but when sec does it it's powergaming? Please do correct me if security has a single fucking tool to deal with a cult juggernaut. the closest they have is lasers, which can be deflected. Every other weapon they have does zero damage besides the classic baton and the DETECTIVE's gun.

[NecromancerAnne]

I don't think anyone things miners are anything fair, but it is in the confines of their role. It's really more a problem when turned on other players and not in the confines of the PvE wankery that is lavaland.

What does security require that they lack already? The only next logical step for most of their gear is unanswerable oneshots and scouring the station for every miniscule possible answer to danger, which is part of the arms race problem.

Most of secs upgrades aren't really conducive to their role either. The researchable guns beyond temp guns and ion carbines are mostly just for killing stuff harder, which isn't really an upgrade but an escalation of force. Getting an upgraded cell for their baton is pretty reasonable, but rigging their baton to blow as a gambit isn't (and can have unintended consequences lemme tell you. From an admin standpoint I've dealt with some folk who caught some innocent people trying to help with that trick and round removed bystanders aplenty). Abandoning your baton for the emp'd defib because it bypasses all defenses, does more stamina damage, and is a 'baton' that can't be stolen or disarmed and lets you instantly kill people with it by destroying their heart could be considered an 'upgraded', but is also a good example of having to go particularly out of your way for any possible advantage and filching from other roles to get it.

God I hope that doesn't catch on just because I mentioned it.

[Cobby]

Guess we'll start off with Powergaming in general; what is and isn't constituted as powergame for the general masses? Using things from your department? Using things that are easily obtained and distributed to the crew, like mutations and xenobiology extracts, or doing bounties and using your private funding to order from cargo? As a round drags on, these things will naturally become more and more mass produced, and easily distributed amongst the general population of the crew. To the point where I see a cargo tech in a SWAT suit with red slime on it at two hours in and I don't bat an eye. There's also things about having things that aren't from your job; for example, a cargo tech or security officer with surgical tools. A lot of jobs tend to have other people fill in to help anyhow if there's holes, IE people heading to engi to set up the SM despite not being engineers. What is and isn't ok for the GENERAL crew to hold?

• Going out of your way to gear up for reasons that isn't reasonable to your job or your current situation
• Using things from your department depends. As a paramedic, you might need chemistry access for medicine. That doesnt mean you get to make your deathmix just because you have access to chemistry, but you would be ok if you know someone has been killing people in maint then that deathmix seems more and more sensible.
• Some items are made to be provided to the crew like slime extracts. The cargo tech in a swat suit just on it's own sounds a bit sus but I dont know the context.
• If people have to "fill holes" it needs to be within reason. A sec/cargo tech running surgical tools need a good reason why. People setting up engine because theres no one doing it is fine since power affects everyone.
• There is no specific line outside of "does the item make sense to have based on your job and/or the station's current situation".

Next up, I'd like clarification on Security. They are by design the first line of defense against any form of antagonist, and, (in my opinion) are generally ill equipped from the start of the shift to handle ANY antagonist. They generally are at a disadvantage because most of their equipment is restricted behind toxins experiments, which can be extremely hard to do unless you metagame the fuck out of it and do sci's job for them, as discussed in the previous section. On top of that, they are generally expected and encouraged to detain antagonists nonlethally as often as possible, which is another thing that can be easily exploited and can cause things to get out of hand quickly. While I understand sec is supposed to be a team and work together, it shouldn't just be a massive numbers slog where you zerg rush down every antag with 5 secoffs, either, and if one of the officers is green or 'unrobust', it makes the round a lot more unfun and difficult for security and everyone in general as the antag now has access to stun batons, and the caveat of being able to just murder you after they put you into stam crit.

• you didnt ask a question. no you cannot powergame as security? If you dont like the premise that we require security to abide by, being nonlethals first, dont play security. Security is mall cop that sometimes have to transition into a kitted force, it shouldnt be seen as the protagonist role.
• Stay in your lane is an existing rule, there doesnt need to be a policy change. If you see someone running toxins alone when there's scientists then F1

Which brings me to the last bit; powergaming as an antag. Rules are generally laxer on antagonists since it's a "once every five or ten rounds" per person, but for anyone who isn't an antag they get to deal with that EVERY round, just from a different person. Antagonists already have access to lots of powerful gear or abilities inherently via uplinks or powers, and most of these on the zanier antags that aren't a Syndicate Traitor can't even be stripped away from them. Combine that with having no limit on basically stealing as much as you want for yourself, and then being able to kind of loophole around the murder baiting rule simply by aggravating people via stealing or having absolutely massive amounts of contraband, and you have antagonists who are either goading sec into fighting them purely by existing, or quietly snowballing into an unstoppable force before they finally go loud.

• whats powergame here though? Nearly every antag is kitted with lethals as an option and I dont think the comparison on one doing more damage over the other matters in terms of enforcing powergame when both are meant to kill.
• this almost sounds like a player issue where people hand out free stuff and then surprised pikachu when one of the individuals they've given free stuff out to is now decked out in all the free stuff provided (I had a similar issue when bagil was the lowpop server before it became high then low again). Thankfully most antags cant just wipe the station after they get the gear. That or you got outplayed which is frustrating but also a part of the game.
• If you see someone stealing you dont have to fight for it back yourself. If you do then you go in knowing the risks assuming you read the rules. Before i get the "well sec wont do anything", you (the player) have to give them that expectation. That means a lot of upset rounds, but I dont like using admins because players are making bad decisions especially when we tell them upfront what the consequences are.

[confused rock]

What does security require that they lack already? The only next logical step for most of their gear is unanswerable oneshots and scouring the station for every miniscule possible answer to danger, which is part of the arms race problem.

What? No. They need anything that does anything against fucking juggernauts or an eshield that doesn't rely on RNG and perhaps even run out of ammo super fucking fast. There is absolutely a step between a couple slow-projectile 20 damage lasers that are deflected by everything and an instakill.

[Cobby]

Why is it that other departments can get better equipment for their job, miners can get a fucking cleaver saw thing that's better than any lethals security can get, before something happens, but when sec does it it's powergaming? Please do correct me if security has a single fucking tool to deal with a cult juggernaut. the closest they have is lasers, which can be deflected. Every other weapon they have does zero damage besides the classic baton and the DETECTIVE's gun.

If you know there's cult or something you can order ballistics. I would even be ok with ordering ballistics and keeping them in armory prior to a direct threat since I think managing the armory for various purposes is within the realm of warden's/HOS' job (you already have shotguns and lethals).

Sometimes you will be in a bad fight and you need to fall back. Choosing to stay and shoot lasers versus backing up and trying to rush cargo for ballistics is a player decision (perhaps one that isnt a fun choice to make), but the onus isnt on admins to compensate for that when we tell you upfront the expectations.

[NecromancerAnne]

The only people who have eshields are ops and who cares about what you do to ops. Ops are reasonable escalation to just go ham on, they're a murderbone antag. If you mean deswords, security are geared for deswords too, they have ebolas and maintainer mandate that ebolas are unstoppable. I recognise simple mobs as a problem and I agree but they're not every threat, and you can reasonably gear yourself to face them as necessary.

Remember, 'as necessary' is key here. You shouldn't immediately seek out the biggest weapon you can get when a threat shows up as security. And I'll be very blunt, I think sec jumping immediately to the strongest lethals they can acquire because those comparitively do the most damage and you're somehow not cutting it with your present gear isn't properly following your role. This can happen when someone mamaged to evade capture, and I think is a contributing issue to perceptions of powergaming and a need to match the arms race. Feelings of inadequacy and anxiety about failure. I do not agree with things like grabbing mosins just to combat an elusive target. If they're somehow stamina damage immune, popping meth constantly or are using a desword, then yeah sure go get a shotgun. Retreat and replan. That's reasonable. Don't get a shotgun just because someone got away.

Insert the shotgun copypasta here.

Edit: Also, skill issue.

[Cobby]

I think theres a nuance for wardens to be able to properly supply armory for situations that arise versus security (officers) taking the guns flippantly because "just in case" or skill issue.

The former for me personally makes sense because part of the job of Warden is to maintain the armory so that if sec has an issue they can be properly kitted, which they might not be able to do with their starting loadout.

Its no different than a MD decking themselves out in all different chems because they have to tackle a variety of situations involving patients, but it wouldnt be ok if they took those meds and dental implanted them "just in case".

[CMDR_Gungnir]

[*] whats powergame here though? Nearly every antag is kitted with lethals as an option and I dont think the comparison on one doing more damage over the other matters in terms of enforcing powergame when both are meant to kill.
[*] this almost sounds like a player issue where people hand out free stuff and then surprised pikachu when one of the individuals they've given free stuff out to is now decked out in all the free stuff provided (I had a similar issue when bagil was the lowpop server before it became high then low again). Thankfully most antags cant just wipe the station after they get the gear. That or you got outplayed which is frustrating but also a part of the game.
[*] If you see someone stealing you dont have to fight for it back yourself. If you do then you go in knowing the risks assuming you read the rules. Before i get the "well sec wont do anything", you (the player) have to give them that expectation. That means a lot of upset rounds, but I dont like using admins because players are making bad decisions especially when we tell them upfront what the consequences are.

We had a round earlier today where a Changeling was leader of the OSI in a Families round. Using his goonsquad of 12 dudes he easily dunked on a wizard and stole Mjolnir before cremating them. He spent the rest of the round combining the usage of this Mjolnir, and his Changeling abilities, to just silently kill every Monarch who dared to enter Science. He also broke into Security and looted an SSD Head of Security. While he did need to take the lasergun, he also stole his belt, baton and ID in the same swoop. He was rendered entirely unstoppable and basically had permission to do whatever the hell he wanted.

This is a player who consistently beelines maximum power every time he gets antag. If he's a Heretic he'll make 12 blades, then loot a Sec Locker for a full kit of the Gamer Loot, and proceed to make the round miserable for everyone. If he's a tot/ling he just skips the Blades step. While yes, Rule 10, this is still a case of an excessive level of over-preperation that renders him singlehandedly unable to be dealt with without Security matching it. It would be one thing if it was occasional, or different people doing it, but EVERY single time this dude gets it, he does it.

While I don't believe this policy thread is explicitly about him (and I know that what I'm saying isn't) it's the best example of the kind of problem we face. Antags having full permission to powergame leads to two possible outcomes. Everyone else is forced to powergame, or they just ruin the round for a whole bunch of people. And lemme tell you, personally I'd rather not be forced to powergame myself.

[Cobby]

I guess my confusion is what part is the powergame

Killing the wizard? Is he not allowed to kill the wizard?

Stealing the Mjolnir? He has the ability to kill people silently with stings, compared to a visual weapon thats easily discernable how is that powergame?

Killing every monarch in science? Im not sure whats powergame here. maybe murderbone?

Looting a HoS (dont care about ssd)? it was part of his objective. Outside of that? He has a mjolnir and silent stings, a belt with stun gear pales in comparison.

Rendered entirely unstoppable? Part of the game.


It almost seems like the issue is with maybe your view on relaxed escalation/murderbone policy or perhaps even some of the game design of some roles than powergaming specifically.

I will full heartedly agree murderboners make people want to validhunt and/or powergame in response to their antics though and have said that for quite some time now.

[Misdoubtful]

While I don't believe this policy thread is explicitly about him (and I know that what I'm saying isn't) it's the best example of the kind of problem we face. Antags having full permission to powergame leads to two possible outcomes. Everyone else is forced to powergame, or they just ruin the round for a whole bunch of people. And lemme tell you, personally I'd rather not be forced to powergame myself.

Maybe this is a bit that needs to really be taken into consideration here. Alongside:

Antagonism, murderboning, and roleplaying as an antagonist.
You're an antag, great! Try your best to play the role to drive the round forward, inserting conflict into the round is important. Your actions should make the game more fun, more exciting and more enjoyable for everyone (Though some people will just lose, and that’s part of the game.). You can treat your objectives as suggestions on what you should attempt to achieve but you are also encouraged to ignore them if you have got a better idea. Certain antagonists are restricted to the kind of death and chaos they can bring to the round, while others are not; refer to the murderboning chart for specifics. You do not have to act in a nefarious or evil way, but you should make an effort to add to the round in some capacity.

Is what is being described fun? Is it inserting conflict? Is it exciting and enjoyable for everyone? Is it driving the round forwards? How so?

In short, is it creating a healthy round?

[NecromancerAnne]

[*] whats powergame here though? Nearly every antag is kitted with lethals as an option and I dont think the comparison on one doing more damage over the other matters in terms of enforcing powergame when both are meant to kill.
[*] this almost sounds like a player issue where people hand out free stuff and then surprised pikachu when one of the individuals they've given free stuff out to is now decked out in all the free stuff provided (I had a similar issue when bagil was the lowpop server before it became high then low again). Thankfully most antags cant just wipe the station after they get the gear. That or you got outplayed which is frustrating but also a part of the game.
[*] If you see someone stealing you dont have to fight for it back yourself. If you do then you go in knowing the risks assuming you read the rules. Before i get the "well sec wont do anything", you (the player) have to give them that expectation. That means a lot of upset rounds, but I dont like using admins because players are making bad decisions especially when we tell them upfront what the consequences are.

We had a round earlier today where a Changeling was leader of the OSI in a Families round. Using his goonsquad of 12 dudes he easily dunked on a wizard and stole Mjolnir before cremating them. He spent the rest of the round combining the usage of this Mjolnir, and his Changeling abilities, to just silently kill every Monarch who dared to enter Science. He also broke into Security and looted an SSD Head of Security. While he did need to take the lasergun, he also stole his belt, baton and ID in the same swoop. He was rendered entirely unstoppable and basically had permission to do whatever the hell he wanted.

This is a player who consistently beelines maximum power every time he gets antag. If he's a Heretic he'll make 12 blades, then loot a Sec Locker for a full kit of the Gamer Loot, and proceed to make the round miserable for everyone. If he's a tot/ling he just skips the Blades step. While yes, Rule 10, this is still a case of an excessive level of over-preperation that renders him singlehandedly unable to be dealt with without Security matching it. It would be one thing if it was occasional, or different people doing it, but EVERY single time this dude gets it, he does it.

While I don't believe this policy thread is explicitly about him (and I know that what I'm saying isn't) it's the best example of the kind of problem we face. Antags having full permission to powergame leads to two possible outcomes. Everyone else is forced to powergame, or they just ruin the round for a whole bunch of people. And lemme tell you, personally I'd rather not be forced to powergame myself.

Sounds like that guy in particular is the problem and not a problem with the role itself. This may as well be a policy thread about that one player if he (and I know who because of the ling incident) is truly just playing on Manuel like you would on the other servers.

We can't have a small handful of people be the sole reason to dictate policy when the issue becomes truly a matter of enforcement, proactive ahelping and not making things worse by replicating the behaviour in turn.

[Jonathan Gupta]

[*] whats powergame here though? Nearly every antag is kitted with lethals as an option and I dont think the comparison on one doing more damage over the other matters in terms of enforcing powergame when both are meant to kill.
[*] this almost sounds like a player issue where people hand out free stuff and then surprised pikachu when one of the individuals they've given free stuff out to is now decked out in all the free stuff provided (I had a similar issue when bagil was the lowpop server before it became high then low again). Thankfully most antags cant just wipe the station after they get the gear. That or you got outplayed which is frustrating but also a part of the game.
[*] If you see someone stealing you dont have to fight for it back yourself. If you do then you go in knowing the risks assuming you read the rules. Before i get the "well sec wont do anything", you (the player) have to give them that expectation. That means a lot of upset rounds, but I dont like using admins because players are making bad decisions especially when we tell them upfront what the consequences are.

We had a round earlier today where a Changeling was leader of the OSI in a Families round. Using his goonsquad of 12 dudes he easily dunked on a wizard and stole Mjolnir before cremating them. He spent the rest of the round combining the usage of this Mjolnir, and his Changeling abilities, to just silently kill every Monarch who dared to enter Science. He also broke into Security and looted an SSD Head of Security. While he did need to take the lasergun, he also stole his belt, baton and ID in the same swoop. He was rendered entirely unstoppable and basically had permission to do whatever the hell he wanted.

This is a player who consistently beelines maximum power every time he gets antag. If he's a Heretic he'll make 12 blades, then loot a Sec Locker for a full kit of the Gamer Loot, and proceed to make the round miserable for everyone. If he's a tot/ling he just skips the Blades step. While yes, Rule 10, this is still a case of an excessive level of over-preperation that renders him singlehandedly unable to be dealt with without Security matching it. It would be one thing if it was occasional, or different people doing it, but EVERY single time this dude gets it, he does it.

While I don't believe this policy thread is explicitly about him (and I know that what I'm saying isn't) it's the best example of the kind of problem we face. Antags having full permission to powergame leads to two possible outcomes. Everyone else is forced to powergame, or they just ruin the round for a whole bunch of people. And lemme tell you, personally I'd rather not be forced to power game myself.

That just sounds kinda funny, I dunno though I'm an lrp player

Here is a bad take

If I have to take captains x y and z and I loot the captain for x y and z along with taking the id am I power gaming? Is that bad? Can I not take those things(Please don't make it so you can't take shit from SSD people as antag fulp has it and it is the worst shit ever, it's not fun it just limits gameplay.)can I act as the captain for the rest of the round as ling? And replace him?

[CMDR_Gungnir]

That just sounds kinda funny, I dunno though I'm an lrp player

Here is a bad take

If I have to take captains x y and z and I loot the captain for x y and z along with taking the id am I power gaming? Is that bad? Can I not take those things(Please don't make it so you can't take shit from SSD people as antag fulp has it and it is the worst shit ever, it's not fun it just limits gameplay.)can I act as the captain for the rest of the round as ling? And replace him?

Personally, my take on it is that'd be fine. You haven't gone out of your way to go grab Gamer Gear, it was just obtained in the process of doing your objective. And doing that as a Changeling would be super difficult due to the Mindshield, but absolutely fucking cool as shit if you manage to pull it off. Ultimately there's a difference between "I'm going to play Heretic, build 12 blades, grab a full suite of Sec Gear, and then go intentionally loud because I know 90% of players won't make any attempt to stop me, and with all of my powers I can easily overpower anyone in Security, and I have an ungodly amount of blades I can snap at a moment's notice if I start losing." and "Yeah, I bonked the CMO to grab his hypospray, and stole his EMPdefib while I was at it" or "I need the HoS' laser gun, so I'm gonna try and arm up at Cargo"

Basically it comes down to whether it's bad faith or good faith.

(It WAS kinda funny, which is why I wouldn't mind it if it was just a once off, but at the same time, when rounds can go 2-3 hours long and you're there more for the roleplay than for the competitive mechanical stuff, being silently roundremoved with no real interesting interaction by a dude who has enough gear to singlehandedly overtake the station if he so chose, isn't really the kind of atmosphere that should be encouraged, for MRP at least, imo)

Edit: Also, to what Anne said, perhaps so. But the policy at the moment dictates that he's allowed to do it, and even outside of him, there's still an issue caused by the environment. If antags ARE allowed to grab a bunch of gear, that requires Sec to do the same. This means that Sec that otherwise wouldn't are now forced to gear up and really crack down hard on antags. This, in turn, forces antags who wouldn't otherwise to go really ham on people and ENSURE there're no witnesses because the alternative is that they'll just be flatly removed from the round. It creates a prisoner's dilemma that results in "Power and efficency is the only viable option" and thus stifles the creative options that you might otherwise see.

[Bmon]

Hilarious how my name is being danced around referring to me as "he" or "him". What's even funnier is that when calling me a murderboner failed (I was bwoinked, it was dismissed) it switched to calling me a powergamer and resulted in this thread.

Yeah, I had a ton of gear as a changeling gang leader but that only happened because the opposing gangs leader who was a wizard decided to unga dunga rush into sci and a fight ensued. Was I meant to destroy the Mjolnir hammer? No, that's silly. Of course I am going to keep it and use it, it was practicality offered to me on a silver platter. Saying that I need to get rid of it because a magical sky god might get mad at me for being too powerful is laughable as me acquiring the Mjolnir hammer was due to circumstance.

Besides that, if you've ever read RP Rule 8 you'll realise it is specifically there to stop the crew from pre-gearing to fight a threat that doesn't yet exist, when you are the threat you can't really pre-gear. Antagonists should be allowed to do whatever they want to so long as it does not cross into murderbone. Other servers have tried to implement powergame rules for antagonists, mostly on the HRP end, but they always end up being incredibly arbitrary and ineffective speaking from personal experience.

The way to solve powergame is code changes, not bureaucracy.

[Farquaar]

The way to solve powergame is code changes, not bureaucracy.

I agree with this sentiment.

[Timberpoes]

Min-maxing your character will always exist in a sandbox game like SS13. Powergaming is just a part of that.

There are no code solutions to this without also removing the sandbox element and gimping player freedom.

Remove the sandbox element and players will go elsewhere. Removing the freedom to do whatever and the players will go elsewhere.

The sandbox and player freedoms are held together by rules and policies more than code. You start with rules and start with policies.

If admins cannot enforce them and cannot come up with any solutions that allow them to enforce them, then it comes to code.

When code is used to enforce rules or policies, nobody wins. Except the coders because we usually get good boy points and get to decide policy without admin oversight or bureaucracy.

[NecromancerAnne]

When code is used to enforce rules or policies, nobody wins. Except the coders because we usually get good boy points and get to decide policy without admin oversight or bureaucracy.

This part specifically is why I feel it especially deceitful to hide behind calls for code changes to solve a problem that is policy and enforcement. Policy is attempting to corral the contained chaos and freedom that is the game we possess, and is blind to the actual minutae of balance. When stuff starts requiring code solutions we're paddling up shit creek.

Also, Timber, you joker, you don't get gbp for balance changes! Everyone knows that!

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Hilarious how my name is being danced around referring to me as "he" or "him". What's even funnier is that when calling me a murderboner failed (I was bwoinked, it was dismissed) it switched to calling me a powergamer and resulted in this thread.

Yeah, I had a ton of gear as a changeling gang leader but that only happened because the opposing gangs leader who was a wizard decided to unga dunga rush into sci and a fight ensued. Was I meant to destroy the Mjolnir hammer? No, that's silly. Of course I am going to keep it and use it, it was practicality offered to me on a silver platter. Saying that I need to get rid of it because a magical sky god might get mad at me for being too powerful is laughable as me acquiring the Mjolnir hammer was due to circumstance.

Besides that, if you've ever read RP Rule 8 you'll realise it is specifically there to stop the crew from pre-gearing to fight a threat that doesn't yet exist, when you are the threat you can't really pre-gear. Antagonists should be allowed to do whatever they want to so long as it does not cross into murderbone. Other servers have tried to implement powergame rules for antagonists, mostly on the HRP end, but they always end up being incredibly arbitrary and ineffective speaking from personal experience.

The way to solve powergame is code changes, not bureaucracy.

RPR8 applies outside of just that. If there is known to be issues (there are! The alert level is on Blue from Shift Start), then surely a SecOff grabbing a bunch of medical supplies wouldn't be an issue, but we've seen Yulice get bwoinked and noted for doing that. Both admins and players will take the rule to be more than simply "Preparing for something that hasn't happened yet". I'm pretty sure if I shot you with an insta-kill syringe I'd still get hit for power game.

Also, a code change is not the answer here, because code changes are static and situations are dynamic. If you make a code change to the problem, there's no way to allow people to adjust to a situation as necessary. (Code Change will also apply to the LRP servers, where they're allowed to do so).

It's really not that hard to just not be bad faith.

[Bmon]

Hilarious how my name is being danced around referring to me as "he" or "him". What's even funnier is that when calling me a murderboner failed (I was bwoinked, it was dismissed) it switched to calling me a powergamer and resulted in this thread.

Yeah, I had a ton of gear as a changeling gang leader but that only happened because the opposing gangs leader who was a wizard decided to unga dunga rush into sci and a fight ensued. Was I meant to destroy the Mjolnir hammer? No, that's silly. Of course I am going to keep it and use it, it was practicality offered to me on a silver platter. Saying that I need to get rid of it because a magical sky god might get mad at me for being too powerful is laughable as me acquiring the Mjolnir hammer was due to circumstance.

Besides that, if you've ever read RP Rule 8 you'll realise it is specifically there to stop the crew from pre-gearing to fight a threat that doesn't yet exist, when you are the threat you can't really pre-gear. Antagonists should be allowed to do whatever they want to so long as it does not cross into murderbone. Other servers have tried to implement powergame rules for antagonists, mostly on the HRP end, but they always end up being incredibly arbitrary and ineffective speaking from personal experience.

The way to solve powergame is code changes, not bureaucracy.

RPR8 applies outside of just that. If there is known to be issues (there are! The alert level is on Blue from Shift Start), then surely a SecOff grabbing a bunch of medical supplies wouldn't be an issue, but we've seen Yulice get bwoinked and noted for doing that. Both admins and players will take the rule to be more than simply "Preparing for something that hasn't happened yet". I'm pretty sure if I shot you with an insta-kill syringe I'd still get hit for power game.

Also, a code change is not the answer here, because code changes are static and situations are dynamic. If you make a code change to the problem, there's no way to allow people to adjust to a situation as necessary. (Code Change will also apply to the LRP servers, where they're allowed to do so).

It's really not that hard to just not be bad faith.

Did you even read what I said? RP Rule 8 would apply to Yulices in that case because they are crew. You can't just round start run around the station collecting every single medkit to stash them away in the brig just to deny the antag from getting a medkit, that's going too far. As to if you'd be able to get away with shooting me with an instakill syringe it'd depend on the context of the round and if you preemptively geared yourself to do such.

In my opinion, if it doesn't need a code change it probably wasn't powergaming to begin with. Think the recent nerf to powered firebreath, that needed to be changed and was for sure powergame to use, albeit mostly legal under our ruleset.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Hilarious how my name is being danced around referring to me as "he" or "him". What's even funnier is that when calling me a murderboner failed (I was bwoinked, it was dismissed) it switched to calling me a powergamer and resulted in this thread.

Yeah, I had a ton of gear as a changeling gang leader but that only happened because the opposing gangs leader who was a wizard decided to unga dunga rush into sci and a fight ensued. Was I meant to destroy the Mjolnir hammer? No, that's silly. Of course I am going to keep it and use it, it was practicality offered to me on a silver platter. Saying that I need to get rid of it because a magical sky god might get mad at me for being too powerful is laughable as me acquiring the Mjolnir hammer was due to circumstance.

Besides that, if you've ever read RP Rule 8 you'll realise it is specifically there to stop the crew from pre-gearing to fight a threat that doesn't yet exist, when you are the threat you can't really pre-gear. Antagonists should be allowed to do whatever they want to so long as it does not cross into murderbone. Other servers have tried to implement powergame rules for antagonists, mostly on the HRP end, but they always end up being incredibly arbitrary and ineffective speaking from personal experience.

The way to solve powergame is code changes, not bureaucracy.

RPR8 applies outside of just that. If there is known to be issues (there are! The alert level is on Blue from Shift Start), then surely a SecOff grabbing a bunch of medical supplies wouldn't be an issue, but we've seen Yulice get bwoinked and noted for doing that. Both admins and players will take the rule to be more than simply "Preparing for something that hasn't happened yet". I'm pretty sure if I shot you with an insta-kill syringe I'd still get hit for power game.

Also, a code change is not the answer here, because code changes are static and situations are dynamic. If you make a code change to the problem, there's no way to allow people to adjust to a situation as necessary. (Code Change will also apply to the LRP servers, where they're allowed to do so).

It's really not that hard to just not be bad faith.

Did you even read what I said? RP Rule 8 would apply to Yulices in that case because they are crew. You can't just round start run around the station collecting every single medkit to stash them away in the brig just to deny the antag from getting a medkit, that's going too far. As to if you'd be able to get away with shooting me with an instakill syringe it'd depend on the context of the round and if you preemptively geared yourself to do such.

In my opinion, if it doesn't need a code change it probably wasn't powergaming to begin with. Think the recent nerf to powered firebreath, that needed to be changed and was for sure powergame to use, albeit mostly legal under our ruleset.

But that's not being done to prevent the antag from getting a medkit, it's being done to give medical equipment to Security Staff. Which is pretty different. The point, however, is that yes, when YOU are the threat, you can't really pre-gear for the threat, but we already treat the rule as more than just that, so this discussion is about if we SHOULD include Antags in it. Which yes, we should. Because of people like you making 25 heretic blades, AND getting a full suite of Security Gear, going out of your way to go as ham as physically possible while being practically impossible to contain and knowing full well that the crew isn't allowed to hunt you down, nor prepare for you.

It doesn't need a code solution because who knows if a situation can arise where maybe you DO need more than two blades. Code prevents you from dynamically adjusting to the situation, when policy can work better, because it's flexible.

It's really not that hard to just not be bad faith.

[Bmon]

Hilarious how my name is being danced around referring to me as "he" or "him". What's even funnier is that when calling me a murderboner failed (I was bwoinked, it was dismissed) it switched to calling me a powergamer and resulted in this thread.

Yeah, I had a ton of gear as a changeling gang leader but that only happened because the opposing gangs leader who was a wizard decided to unga dunga rush into sci and a fight ensued. Was I meant to destroy the Mjolnir hammer? No, that's silly. Of course I am going to keep it and use it, it was practicality offered to me on a silver platter. Saying that I need to get rid of it because a magical sky god might get mad at me for being too powerful is laughable as me acquiring the Mjolnir hammer was due to circumstance.

Besides that, if you've ever read RP Rule 8 you'll realise it is specifically there to stop the crew from pre-gearing to fight a threat that doesn't yet exist, when you are the threat you can't really pre-gear. Antagonists should be allowed to do whatever they want to so long as it does not cross into murderbone. Other servers have tried to implement powergame rules for antagonists, mostly on the HRP end, but they always end up being incredibly arbitrary and ineffective speaking from personal experience.

The way to solve powergame is code changes, not bureaucracy.

RPR8 applies outside of just that. If there is known to be issues (there are! The alert level is on Blue from Shift Start), then surely a SecOff grabbing a bunch of medical supplies wouldn't be an issue, but we've seen Yulice get bwoinked and noted for doing that. Both admins and players will take the rule to be more than simply "Preparing for something that hasn't happened yet". I'm pretty sure if I shot you with an insta-kill syringe I'd still get hit for power game.

Also, a code change is not the answer here, because code changes are static and situations are dynamic. If you make a code change to the problem, there's no way to allow people to adjust to a situation as necessary. (Code Change will also apply to the LRP servers, where they're allowed to do so).

It's really not that hard to just not be bad faith.

Did you even read what I said? RP Rule 8 would apply to Yulices in that case because they are crew. You can't just round start run around the station collecting every single medkit to stash them away in the brig just to deny the antag from getting a medkit, that's going too far. As to if you'd be able to get away with shooting me with an instakill syringe it'd depend on the context of the round and if you preemptively geared yourself to do such.

In my opinion, if it doesn't need a code change it probably wasn't powergaming to begin with. Think the recent nerf to powered firebreath, that needed to be changed and was for sure powergame to use, albeit mostly legal under our ruleset.

But that's not being done to prevent the antag from getting a medkit, it's being done to give medical equipment to Security Staff. Which is pretty different. The point, however, is that yes, when YOU are the threat, you can't really pre-gear for the threat, but we already treat the rule as more than just that, so this discussion is about if we SHOULD include Antags in it. Which yes, we should. Because of people like you making 25 heretic blades, AND getting a full suite of Security Gear, going out of your way to go as ham as physically possible while being practically impossible to contain and knowing full well that the crew isn't allowed to hunt you down, nor prepare for you.

It doesn't need a code solution because who knows if a situation can arise where maybe you DO need more than two blades. Code prevents you from dynamically adjusting to the situation, when policy can work better, because it's flexible.

It's really not that hard to just not be bad faith.

That's why let other secoffs dictate if they want a medkit or not instead of hoarding every single medkit on the station in the brig. I have expressed my concerns about why it's a horrible idea to apply RP Rule 8 to antags and why it only applies to the crew, I have nothing else to say.

[GamerAndYeahMick]

Antagonists should be allowed to powergame. Banning or noting antagonists for having items is in the extreme realms of bureaucracy & ludicrousness, Do you really want to have to spend 10 minutes being bwoinked and explaining to admins why you have x in your pocket as a traitor when instead you could be scheming and driving the round in a certain direction, isn't that just annoying and a bad player experience?

Anyway aside from that, restricting antags from powergaming makes even less sense on MRP because they are more restricted in what they can do with what they have anyway, if you end up in a scenario in which they are able to fuck with you somehow and you have no way to win then tough-luck, sometimes you lose and have absolutely no counter and that is written into the soul of our general rules, the game isn't about winning anyway

[Jonathan Gupta]

Antagonists should be allowed to powergame. Banning or noting antagonists for having items is in the extreme realms of bureaucracy & ludicrousness, Do you really want to have to spend 10 minutes being bwoinked and explaining to admins why you have x in your pocket as a traitor when instead you could be scheming and driving the round in a certain direction, isn't that just annoying and a bad player experience?

Anyway aside from that, restricting antags from powergaming makes even less sense on MRP because they are more restricted in what they can do with what they have anyway, if you end up in a scenario in which they are able to fuck with you somehow and you have no way to win then tough-luck, sometimes you lose and have absolutely no counter and that is written into the soul of our general rules, the game isn't about winning anyway

this is fulp, please I wanna fucking die.

[Screemonster]

Hilarious how my name is being danced around referring to me as "he" or "him". What's even funnier is that when calling me a murderboner failed (I was bwoinked, it was dismissed) it switched to calling me a powergamer and resulted in this thread.

Yeah, I had a ton of gear as a changeling gang leader but that only happened because the opposing gangs leader who was a wizard decided to unga dunga rush into sci and a fight ensued. Was I meant to destroy the Mjolnir hammer? No, that's silly. Of course I am going to keep it and use it, it was practicality offered to me on a silver platter. Saying that I need to get rid of it because a magical sky god might get mad at me for being too powerful is laughable as me acquiring the Mjolnir hammer was due to circumstance.

Besides that, if you've ever read RP Rule 8 you'll realise it is specifically there to stop the crew from pre-gearing to fight a threat that doesn't yet exist, when you are the threat you can't really pre-gear. Antagonists should be allowed to do whatever they want to so long as it does not cross into murderbone. Other servers have tried to implement powergame rules for antagonists, mostly on the HRP end, but they always end up being incredibly arbitrary and ineffective speaking from personal experience.

The way to solve powergame is code changes, not bureaucracy.

RPR8 applies outside of just that. If there is known to be issues (there are! The alert level is on Blue from Shift Start), then surely a SecOff grabbing a bunch of medical supplies wouldn't be an issue, but we've seen Yulice get bwoinked and noted for doing that. Both admins and players will take the rule to be more than simply "Preparing for something that hasn't happened yet". I'm pretty sure if I shot you with an insta-kill syringe I'd still get hit for power game.

Also, a code change is not the answer here, because code changes are static and situations are dynamic. If you make a code change to the problem, there's no way to allow people to adjust to a situation as necessary. (Code Change will also apply to the LRP servers, where they're allowed to do so).

It's really not that hard to just not be bad faith.

Did you even read what I said? RP Rule 8 would apply to Yulices in that case because they are crew. You can't just round start run around the station collecting every single medkit to stash them away in the brig just to deny the antag from getting a medkit, that's going too far. As to if you'd be able to get away with shooting me with an instakill syringe it'd depend on the context of the round and if you preemptively geared yourself to do such.

In my opinion, if it doesn't need a code change it probably wasn't powergaming to begin with. Think the recent nerf to powered firebreath, that needed to be changed and was for sure powergame to use, albeit mostly legal under our ruleset.

Yeah, there's a big fuckin difference between "keeping something that happened to fall into your lap through chance" and "gearing up"

one is picking up something that happened to be in your path, the other is specifically diverting your path in order to obtain things

like if you're running around and find a medkit, that's not the same as specifically going out to hunt down all the medkits

same as the earlier thread with the guy complaining that he tried to teleport-kidnap the geneticist and the geneticist shrek'd him with a hulk syringe - no shit he had a genetic superpower syringe to hand, he's the fucking geneticist, that's like complaining that an engineer has insuls so your genius shock deathtrap didn't work

[RaveRadbury]

Powergaming produces an arms race that significantly degrades the quality of the round. MRP players are expected to prioritize the story of the shift over tactical advantages. MRP admins are encouraged to engage sec, antags, and other crew that are going overboard with gear that doesn't fit the current circumstances (especially gear outside the scope of their job (as opposed to job products like plants and slime extracts)) and discuss the importance of pacing and sportsmanship. These conversations may result in notes or appropriate bans.

As always RP and style are encouraged, so if someone is making use of gear and equipment in a way that is memorable and engaging for players exceptions are possible.

Headmin Votes:
RaveRadbury: Yes
NamelessFairy: Yes
Dragomagol: Yes