[Manuel] borged sec officers

[ATHATH]

During a Manuel round this night, Hulkamania claimed that being borged "wipes your personality" (but not your memories), and thus, borged sec officers are not allowed to do sec-like things like hunt (nonhuman) antags (even if doing so wouldn't violate their laws). I've never heard anything about borging wiping your personality before, and that's never been how I've RPed it. When I asked hulk about this, he said that the conversation was over and closed the admin ticket.

Is this an established policy or something??

[Jonathan Gupta]

You're a brain in a machine, does being meched fuck you also?

[NecromancerAnne]

Your 'personality being wiped' sounds like a really fucking stupid thing for Hulk to say given it's objectively not anywhere in current ruling or policy. In fact, the only current policy we have suggests it's straight up the opposite. Even if it is dealing with antagonists, the lack of verisimilitude just to tell you how to play your character like an overbearing GM is a fucking dumb thing to lean on when trying to tell someone to not validhunt. If he came at me with that excuse I'd tell him to fuck off into the sun and bring in a headmin to back him up.

Here is the rub of his real intent with this. Don't validhunt as an enslaved borg and prioritise being an asset to the AI. Maybe the AI will ask you to go stop a badman anyway but all the same, you have a bigger priority as an enslaved borg.

If you're an unlinked borg who gives a shit if you're not breaking your laws. You were security. You did opt to take the role. And being a borg has plenty of potential risks and hangups that make it actually actively detrimental to have a borged officer.

TL;DR Hulk is probably sick of arguing with you, ATHATH, and wants you to stop validhunting as a borg, this hardly needs to be new policy.

But I find it funny that this was how he went about it, and I now actually want to see if someone will bend over backwards to try and enforce deadpan emotionless borgs on Manuel just out of spite for this.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Your brain is not wiped as a borg, but validhunting as a borg is cringe and probbably against policy, I dont care how deep your character's validhunting lore is.

[wesoda25]

I think it’s interesting for players to retain their IC motivations upon being borged. Besides, if it results in them doing lame stuff all it takes is a law 2 order to stop it.

[GamerAndYeahMick]

Even if your personality isn't "wiped", validhunting as a borg is about the lamest failrp shit you can do - you should be a neutral party when it comes to station vs antagonists and should only care about harm

[Not-Dorsidarf]

If it results in them doing lame stuff all it takes is a law 2 order to stop it.

This was a stronger argument when 4/5ths of the crew were humans rather than 1/3rd

[ATHATH]

Even if your personality isn't "wiped", validhunting as a borg is about the lamest failrp shit you can do - you should be a neutral party when it comes to station vs antagonists and should only care about harm

The rub here is that I was being borged as a (gibbed) security officer, a member of the security team. I shouldn't simply stop caring about my old job and duties upon being borged, no?

Also, I forgot to mention this earlier, but Hulk did also (correctly) point out that borged antags could still follow their objectives, but claimed that that was an exception, not the rule.

The round ID for my conversation with him was 173408 (Manuel), if anyone wants to look up my (second) conversation with Hulk.

[GamerAndYeahMick]

It really depends what you are doing. You shouldn't validhunt as a borg, if you want to continue to be some sort of sheriff-esque law-abiding personality fine, but imho the job and duties of sec includes a lot of validhunting people or being station aligned which is very not what silicons should do (in my eyes)

[ATHATH]

It really depends what you are doing. You shouldn't validhunt as a borg, if you want to continue to be some sort of sheriff-esque law-abiding personality fine, but imho the job and duties of sec includes a lot of validhunting people or being station aligned which is very not what silicons should do (in my eyes)

I thought that the reasoning behind the "you shouldn't validhunt as a borg" arguments was that roundstart or posibrain borgs aren't members of sec, right? But a borged sec officer IS still a member of sec, just in a metal body and with a need to follow their laws.

[cSeal]

the reasoning isnt solid but the spirit is there. validhunting as a silicon is cringe, doubly so on mrp. Go fix a window you bloodthirsty fridge

[Pandarsenic]

I don't know about any others, but I REALLY don't want to see mandated loss of continuity of subjectivity/personhood at a lore/policy level.

I'm even fine with borging removing antag status, which is what I had always taken as the case, though that may be an artifact of me playing before Positronic Brains were brought to /tg/! I would prefer it so you can have someone who has IC feelings and thoughts about their cyborgization while not being a huge liability rather than needing to go through a "10 lasers to the head and throw 'em in the morgue, then print a positronic brain" circus.

But I think it's incredibly fucking boring to essentially mandate that borging someone makes them an entirely new person, lorewise. Should they be validhunting? No, or longer, "Only within the constraints of laws, orders received, etc.," mostly because proactively validhunting as a borg is just shit and I'm sure I'm not the only one happy to see secborgs gone forever. But I just find the lore/RP implications of Hulk's assertion super fucking boring in addition to being entirely without precedent.

But seriously don't go chasing around and fucking nonhumans/antags over for laughs to be a piece of shit. Just get moved to a monkey-human body if you're that determined to keep being shitsec.

[Jonathan Gupta]

But seriously don't go chasing around and fucking nonhumans/antags over for laughs to be a piece of shit. Just get moved to a monkey-human body if you're that determined to keep being shitsec.

you cannot request to be no longer a borg(He got gibbed yeah let me tell em as a ghost.)

[NecromancerAnne]

If it results in them doing lame stuff all it takes is a law 2 order to stop it.

This was a stronger argument when 4/5ths of the crew were humans rather than 1/3rd

Command is always human, and command has priority on orders, so this argument is just grouching about nonhumans pointlessly.

I think it’s interesting for players to retain their IC motivations upon being borged. Besides, if it results in them doing lame stuff all it takes is a law 2 order to stop it.

This is why I think it makes sense to me. If anything, this should really be more of an IC issue. We don't need to micromanage policy to this degree just because something is generally distasteful, Rule 1 already somewhat empowers admins to handle situations where this is excessive.

And we already have validhunting rules. Those rules account for security. I don't think we should strip someone of previous role allowances the moment they become a free/unlinked borg (I think these qualifiers are important, and I feel a linked borg shouldn't follow their previous role objectives, they've new ones as a linked borg). They're the same character, and I think treating it as total character death and not just body death is contextualizing borging in the wrong way. It should be up to the player how they conduct themselves within the scope of allowed policy as a borg, which includes character motivations from their previous life and still retaining their previous personality (or not, it's up to them).

[cSeal]

and command has priority on orders

Fairly certain silicons dont care about CoC. theyre free to take a command from heads of staff over conflicting orders from other crew but thats not policy im like 999999 percent sure

[cSeal]

Also dorsi makes a really good point "just law 2 them to not be lame" simply is not a reasonable way to solve silicons being lame

[NecromancerAnne]

and command has priority on orders

Fairly certain silicons dont care about CoC. theyre free to take a command from heads of staff over conflicting orders from other crew but thats not policy im like 999999 percent sure

I mostly extrapolated from some level of deference towards both the Captain and RD to matters involving their laws and their orders. If we can assume the captain and RD have some kind of priority assuming they're not harmful, they probably are useful to point too as having priority in order conflicts.

But checking silicon policy again, I was actually wrong. Conflicting orders are handled however you like assuming you're following at least one of them, so mostly CoC is a convenient excuse I've seen before. Which is different to an actual rule, I'll give you that. But command is definitely still human, so their orders have absolute priority over non-humans, and so you can assume command will have the reigns in those situations.

Here is the relevant rule

You must follow any and all commands from humans unless those commands explicitly conflict with either: one of your higher-priority laws, or another order. A command is considered to be a Law 2 directive and overrides lower-priority laws where they conflict.
1. In case of conflicting orders an AI is free to ignore one or ignore both orders and explain the conflict or use any other law-compliant solution it can see.
You are not obligated to follow commands in a particular order, only to complete all of them in a manner that indicates intent to actually obey the law.

Also dorsi makes a really good point "just law 2 them to not be lame" simply is not a reasonable way to solve silicons being lame

Being heavy handed on telling people how to play can be equally lame, because it can feel like you have some looming admin judging you too harshly for your actions when you're otherwise not doing anything wrong by the rules. You just sometimes need to let things play out naturally, and shouldn't be looking for wrong doing where there isn't any.

It's when people take it too far, too often, and do it to an excessive degree is when admins should step in to resolve matters. And by that I mean they're trying to lean on being a borg to become an all-access lawless robocop with borg immunities or something. That's lame. But becoming an unintentional actual robocop, complete with the robocop laws, is cool and thematically interesting and generates RP.

By the way, we have a robocop lawset, so dedicated cop is actually something borgs CAN be by their laws.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

silicons tend towards using CoC as a conflict resolution because usually the command staff are giving you less obnoxious/gonna-get-you-killed orders than the assistants.

[terranaut]

remember when picking nonhuman was a choice you made knowing it would make you nothing in the AIs eyes
antag status isn't lost on borging, why would the reverse be true? makes no sense

[Cobby]

Uh your personality is free to be retained on borging, that’s different than saying for instance that your personality as a valid hunter is dumb to begin with because security isn’t really meant to validhunt either.

The issue comes in when they start lawyering to catch antags despite laws, like a law 2 order to let me go when all I had was a doormag or something. If you play as a nonhuman you take the L here that’s part of being a nonhuman.

[Valorium]

The issue here is that upon borging, your "job" is not Security Officer - your "job" is Cyborg of whichever model you choose. You may have been a Security Officer before, but you no longer have access to the tools or (usually) the lawset that enables that job, so suck it up and do the job you have now, which is whatever model you chose. If you started the round as a Security Officer, walked over to the HoP, changed your job to Station Engineer and got all the tools associated with Station Engineer, your job is not to go hunt antags, it's to do all the duties associated with being a Station Engineer. If you got demoted and forced to be a Station Engineer, it would be the same thing - you are unable to perform the duties of your previous occupation. In this case, you got "demoted" (gibbed, but whatever), and became unable to perform the duties of your previous occupation given your new circumstances (i.e. being a robot, yay!).

[mstachife]

The issue here is that upon borging, your "job" is not Security Officer - your "job" is Cyborg of whichever model you choose. You may have been a Security Officer before, but you no longer have access to the tools or (usually) the lawset that enables that job, so suck it up and do the job you have now, which is whatever model you chose. If you started the round as a Security Officer, walked over to the HoP, changed your job to Station Engineer and got all the tools associated with Station Engineer, your job is not to go hunt antags, it's to do all the duties associated with being a Station Engineer. If you got demoted and forced to be a Station Engineer, it would be the same thing - you are unable to perform the duties of your previous occupation. In this case, you got "demoted" (gibbed, but whatever), and became unable to perform the duties of your previous occupation given your new circumstances (i.e. being a robot, yay!).

This is only relevant as it pertains to him following his lawset and any orders from his AI, as that's the bare minimum to play a cyborg. If he still helped out security while doing those two things (due to him wanting to help out his coworkers in his new capacity), there isn't a conflict imo.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

The issue here is that upon borging, your "job" is not Security Officer - your "job" is Cyborg of whichever model you choose. You may have been a Security Officer before, but you no longer have access to the tools or (usually) the lawset that enables that job, so suck it up and do the job you have now, which is whatever model you chose. If you started the round as a Security Officer, walked over to the HoP, changed your job to Station Engineer and got all the tools associated with Station Engineer, your job is not to go hunt antags, it's to do all the duties associated with being a Station Engineer. If you got demoted and forced to be a Station Engineer, it would be the same thing - you are unable to perform the duties of your previous occupation. In this case, you got "demoted" (gibbed, but whatever), and became unable to perform the duties of your previous occupation given your new circumstances (i.e. being a robot, yay!).

This doesn't change the fact that Hulk came in saying that your personality yada yada are completely wiped upon being borged.

[Valorium]

The issue here is that upon borging, your "job" is not Security Officer - your "job" is Cyborg of whichever model you choose. You may have been a Security Officer before, but you no longer have access to the tools or (usually) the lawset that enables that job, so suck it up and do the job you have now, which is whatever model you chose. If you started the round as a Security Officer, walked over to the HoP, changed your job to Station Engineer and got all the tools associated with Station Engineer, your job is not to go hunt antags, it's to do all the duties associated with being a Station Engineer. If you got demoted and forced to be a Station Engineer, it would be the same thing - you are unable to perform the duties of your previous occupation. In this case, you got "demoted" (gibbed, but whatever), and became unable to perform the duties of your previous occupation given your new circumstances (i.e. being a robot, yay!).

This doesn't change the fact that Hulk came in saying that your personality yada yada are completely wiped upon being borged.

Yeah, I think that's fuckin' stupid. It inhibits RP and if it was actually true, dozens of people would be banned faster than you could blink. But, I think if you get borged, you should be trying to do the job associated with whichever module you pick, not attempt to secure valids with a flash and a welder.

[Farquaar]

The issue comes in when they start lawyering to catch antags despite laws, like a law 2 order to let me go when all I had was a doormag or something. If you play as a nonhuman you take the L here that’s part of being a nonhuman.

I never understood why some silicons insist on rules lawyering to keep miscreants and tators locked up/valided. Half the fun of AI is screwing over the crew because your laws made you do it.

[dragomagol]

Yes you do regain your memories, and your personality if you want to. That being said, getting borged to become a budget sec borg is extremely lame on LRP and MRP.

Anne put it well:

Don't validhunt as an enslaved borg and prioritise being an asset to the AI. Maybe the AI will ask you to go stop a badman anyway but all the same, you have a bigger priority as an enslaved borg.

Headmin Votes:
Dragomagol: Yes
RaveRadbury: Yes
NamelessFairy: Yes