/tg/Station 13

Recently we've gained the ability to soft filter words and phrases, this allows players to use a term but only after passing a warning, admins are also warned when done so. At present the filter is used for two mostly OOC in IC terms with occasional IC usecases (ERP and Antag). The other headmins and I would now like to open a discussion on expanding the soft filter list to include slurs. This will allow slurs to still be used in acceptable usecases as defined by MSO but will show a warning that will hopfully deter player from using slurs in a way that breaks rule 11. And if slurs are used in a way that does violate rule 11, admins are notified of its usage and will find it easier to catch.

This thread is to allow people to discuss the idea as well as suggest words that should/should not be included.

This would be fine, if only because I put "soft filter" on my highlight list so I can catch the cases out earlier.

Would also be nice in further discouraging the use of slurs.

kinda dont see the point where would you use slurs in ic chat in a respectable way

Dislike this idea.
Speaking as someone whos been the target of racial slurs a fair bit, "we let people call you slurs but we can bonk them easier for it" is hardly a nice thing to hear when you could just stop it all together instead
Speaking as an admin, the soft filter in its current implementation doesn't work for the words already on it at all, they haven't decreased in frequency nor has there been any usages I've seen that have been ic, and I have no doubt that itll be the same for anything else added to it. Id prefer we just add these things to the hard filter to prevent idiots from being idiots all together, rather than having us note each person who uses it incorrectly each time they do so (which is all of them, all the time)
The reason why admins exist is to make the game more enjoyable, hospitable, and fun. The soft filter does not enable this, putting slurs on the soft filter doesn't enable this. It just makes it easier to ban people. What's the point, when we have a better solution available to use that ends in no one getting banned?

Dislike this idea as well, but I'm not for hard filtering it either like Cyan is.
If someone's being targeted by slurs (faggot, etc) then it's breaking ooc in ic because "no more homophobia/racism/etc in 2560" - they can and should ahelp this. I'm not sure if people are aware that they CAN ahelp this and it's probably an administrative matter that I'll try to look out for and get on top of, but that's besides the point.
if someone's not being targeted and/or is fine with the words in question, soft filtering it will load admins' chat with usage of the word for what's essentially a non-issue. Doubly so if cyan's correct (I believe my damp marshland themed friend) and people just constantly OK themselves past a soft filter anyway.

TL;DR I don't think we need a soft filter on this one? And if my argument tastes too similar to the arguments against hard filtering the funny hard R, then why not just... hard filter em all too?

kinda dont see the point where would you use slurs in ic chat in a respectable way

Frankly I'm just going based on the assumption that they can't be put on the hard filter, I would absolutely love for them all to just be hard filtered.

I won't agree with censoring any words unless they are replaced by friendly alternatives automatically because a) this will piss people off who try to use them b) this idea makes me laugh, also what words would you soft filter? Would you soft filter retard for example?

GamerAndYeahMick wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:21 am I won't agree with censoring any words unless they are replaced by friendly alternatives automatically because a) this will piss people off who try to use them

Ive seen this method used in other places, it wont piss anyone off. theyll just start using it in place of the word and itll become an edgy in joke

censoring words is fake and gay unless it's like the town of salem system
that one's kinda funny sometimes

I don’t see the need for additional filters, especially not hardfilters.

1984 filters, please no filters.

GamerAndYeahMick wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:21 am I won't agree with censoring any words unless they are replaced by friendly alternatives automatically because a) this will piss people off who try to use them b) this idea makes me laugh, also what words would you soft filter? Would you soft filter retard for example?

The friendly alternatives become instant dogwhistles and you'll have people running around the community saying "buddy" in place of the n-word making everything extremely messy.

Soft word filters make total sense for IC in OOC, there's no value to keeping slurs that outweighs our stupid, immature community's inability to not be edgy racists.

Can we do this for abbreviations? I always thought it was dumb that things like "wtf" are filtered even though it is obviously meant to be said as what the fuck.

Ive seen this method used in other places, it wont piss anyone off. theyll just start using it in place of the word and itll become an edgy in joke

Sad!! Didn't think about that

Soft word filters make total sense for IC in OOC, there's no value to keeping slurs that outweighs our stupid, immature community's inability to not be edgy racists.

I agree that people being edgy racists degrade the quality of the experience that we offer. That being said i'd like to see what words are being proposed before I agree to anything

Suggestions:
"jew" - there is a lot of acceptable ways to use this word but insulting QMs isn't one.
"fag" - part of "fag out", also used to refer to cigarettes
"negro" - "black" in Spanish and Portugese
"Niger" (capitalized) - there is a river and a country.
"squaw" - four different plants and a duck are named this, apparently.
"kraut" - apparently nationality is protected now, so this should probably be filtered. Can also be used to refer to the cabbage dish sauerkraut
"gypsy" - apparently a lot of stuff is named "Gypsy"

I'm assuming you plan on keeping the n word in the hard filter despite this?

i hope so

saprasam wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:28 am censoring words is fake and gay

yeah it's difficult because personally i hate seeing the /pol/ troglodytes getting away with it but being a woke scold that polices other people's language in order to virtue signal or whatever is incredibly fucking lame. censoring a word has no respect for context and intent which is what actually makes something hateful and it's patronising 'we know better than you' bullshit

If I stated my true opinions on this I would seem insane, so for now I'll do something softer.

censoring things is meh I can't describe my hatred for censoring, but it's whateva do whatever ya need to stop things from going out of control.

At least they are doing it for the best in mind for /tg/

Jonathan Gupta wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:25 am At least they are doing it for the best in mind for /tg/

They're doing it for entirely self-serving, narcissistic reasons. Forcing their own values on the playerbase because they're offended. I remember when Goonstation did this (and it would alert the admins too and then they'd adminPM you telling you to cut it out) in like 2012 or 2014 or something and people on /tg/station would use it as a sign of their overbearing administration.

cacogen wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:19 am They're doing it for entirely self-serving, narcissistic reasons. Forcing their own values on the playerbase because they're offended.

Whateva man, even If I went up in protest about it nothing diffrent would change, it's the same no matter what I say.

And it's the popular opinion might as well go with the flow.

I would trade away the presence of every person who is bothered that their slurs get filtered combined just to keep around even one single person who gets annoyed at trite slurs from people who cry about censorship or cancelation when they're shown the door for being annoying.

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:17 am people who cry about censorship or cancelation when they're shown the door for being annoying.

there is more to it.

I think I may have hit on something there

The words are going to get filtered regardless because an admin is going to ban you for saying them. You’re not arguing if they’re going to be filtered at all as you’ve already lost that when rule 11 gets plopped in, you’re only (supposed to ig) arguing what happens AFTER you say it ingame.

I would rather the hard filter be used for any slurs, you see the “uh oh ur sentence is naughty”, and you change it + cope even if it’s in that 1% of “acceptable use of the slur”. That is 100% better than being banned and you crying in appeals about the libitals taking over. Not doing that seems to go against rule 11 as you’re trying to catch byond the realm of bigotry expression (since you can entirely prevent the expression of bigotry but choose not to for ???)

Any system that has full room to act in a way that saves people from bans AND upholds the rules but chooses not to is the epitome of the “banbot” archetype and actually kinda embarrassing tbh.

If they violate rule 11 anyway, why aren't they already added? This saves both players (they know it's a no no word) and admins (less bwoinking and arguing with players) a lot of headaches.
I'm sure that someone has already grepped all server logs for the most used slurs.

Everything else is borderline banbot behavior as cobby already said. I'd just be miffed if I couldn't call my chem coworker a retard anymore for blowing up the lab with meth.

Please stay on topic without provoking each other.

Sort of a slippery slope, if every offensive word is banned because it doesn't support the kind of atmosphere we want then what will people call each other when they're super pissed off? Dumby dumbo?

N-word is legitimately offensive but I'm not sure we want to go much farther than this, the minorly offensive ones can be punished ICKly by making the person valid or, if they're used in a bigoted way, can be bwoinked for via rule 11, but blocking the words themselves ignores all the contextual situations where they're actually used appropriately and aren't bwoinked for.

Sort of a slippery slope, if every offensive word is banned because it doesn't support the kind of atmosphere we want then what will people call each other when they're super pissed off? Dumby dumbo?

Something other than slurs, it's fairly easy

I don't like this because we shouldn't have a soft filter at all, just a hard one.

That way headadmins are encouraged to think about what they're filtering because it will block those messages and be inconvenient.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:51 pm Sort of a slippery slope, if every offensive word is banned because it doesn't support the kind of atmosphere we want then what will people call each other when they're super pissed off? Dumby dumbo?

Consider:
fucker idiot moron motherfucker cocksucker cum guzzler abortion shitcock cunt asshole bugger twat wanker bitch dickhead redditor shiteater chuckefuck bastard inbred [noun] dense [noun] Casse couille pig rat swine cow fatty bidet shitter dogfucker whore son of a whore

Also read Cobby's post above.

I'm not convinced the soft filter does anything. Whenever I see someone trigger it on live they just ignore it, and admins either don't care or don't notice.
Seems futile, what's the point?

That said I hardly observe. But if the pattern is just mash through it I'm not sure why it exists

You know I hadn't played on Terry in awhile until recently and it reminded me of what it was like there. That portion of the playerbase singlehandedly justifies having slurs in the hard filter.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:09 am

Sort of a slippery slope, if every offensive word is banned because it doesn't support the kind of atmosphere we want then what will people call each other when they're super pissed off? Dumby dumbo?

Something other than slurs, it's fairly easy

Guess the issue I'm getting at is that a slur is ill-defined and a category which is consistently changing. Perhaps a "set of words" that headmins agree are always offensive, in any circumstance.

Will we run into any github related issues like the ones we had with the 'happy' mutation?

The filter list is stored in config, so github will never see it.

carshalash wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:50 am Will we run into any github related issues like the ones we had with the 'happy' mutation?

Naw, config is on our side so as long as slurs aren't a codebase default they'd never see github

Can head admins just step in on this already and propose something or just enforce what they want, can you give some clarification as to what is a slur, is it purely racial things? Is it about sexuality as well? What words is it and can you explain more please

If a Gamer feels the need to try to litigate whether or not it's a slur, it's probably a slur

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:12 am If a Gamer feels the need to try to litigate whether or not it's a slur, it's probably a slur

This isn't necessarily true, and I do not personally care if you can't call someone a <insert generic race based insult here>, and I feel its important that the head admins finally weigh in here and show leadership instead of dropping a contentious bomb and giving no direction, additionally it doesn't seem clear as to what mrstonedone himself would have to say about it all, and if he would ever except such a thing?

I think slurs would be a logical addition to the soft filter. Tranny and faggot would be obvious offenders and fairly uncontroversial I think.

As other have said though it would be better on the hard.

No they should be added to the hard.

(You) are just being dumb if you know (you) will never let someone say the word but (you) refuse to put it in the hard list because there is some ethereal situation that somehow is an acceptable use of the word rather than just having it not go through and the person has to change it.

The soft filter shouldn’t be seen as a concession to get whoever is blocking this to stop being stupid. It should be for things where they’re largely unacceptable but you can reasonably have the word said in a non bigoted context (cracker for instance is a good candidate because cracker is also a tasty bird snack and we have a bird Ingame every round).

It’s pretty telling how we have a rule that’s about expressing bigotry but we as admins try everything in our path to ensure that it’s expressed and only caring about it afterwards rather than targeting prior to it being expressed. how come I aka someone who didn’t care for slurs to be banned seem to have a more sensible approach to this lol.

I'll reiterate what I said before--I would love for slurs (such as tranny and faggot) to just be hard filtered, and I fail to be convinced otherwise. Barring that, if for whatever reason head admins refuse, soft filter is good to let people know these aren't okay, and over time will likely get moved anyway. My experience with the soft filter is it almost feels like a punishment to ME for giving a damn.

I think the only practical difference is that we would be allowing people to get themselves banned (or otherwise play the admin lottery) by using slurs rather than stopping them from doing so in the first place which I'm not sure can be considered an improvement

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:00 pm I'll reiterate what I said before--I would love for slurs (such as tranny and faggot) to just be hard filtered, and I fail to be convinced otherwise.

Do you think that people who use slurs like "tr--ny" and "fa--ot" shouldn't be banned? Because hard filtering them out won't ban them, right? It'll just encourage them to find more creative ways to insult people. Which hey, might just produce some colorful and creative insults! Great idea, actually. If the /tg/station community could come up with some even more offensive terms that somehow spread to outside the community that could bring back some great publicity. Unlikely, of course, but I'm starting to like this line of thinking. In fact hard filtering some of the more mundane insults like "idiot" would also encourage this creative production of insults.

I want people to stop using slurs, I'm not trying to maximize ban count. If they use other insults that aren't bigoted then I'm totally okay with that.

can I still call people the following?

Retard, Losa, I'll beat your ass, fight me, come on then big guy, IRA!, IRISH LOOKIN!, I bombed your mom last night!!!, #Your mom joke here.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:46 pm I want people to stop using slurs, I'm not trying to maximize ban count. If they use other insults that aren't bigoted then I'm totally okay with that.

Yeah, if there is a thing any player can do that will automatically lead to a ban for doing it under any and all circumstances, and it can easily be prevented, it *should not be possible to do so*.

Let the really bigoted slime work around it sure. Then smash them with the banhammer because our actual ban is on bigotry even if they come up with a funny new phrase for it. Now they're banned AND nobody can say the casually bigoted words they import the usage of from other communities.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I find myself in favour of hardfilters. Setting up a jury trial to identify whether somebody's use of a slur is bigoted or not is a recipe for disaster. Hardfilter is simpler, causes less headaches, and clearly conveys expectations to players so they can conduct themselves accordingly.