Return intradepartmental access

[Pandarsenic]

I haven't watched git close enough to know if it was a bug that got "fixed" or a feature that got removed/rolled back, but Policy seems more appropriate than Code Feedback since this is just an adjustment, in theory, of starting job access?

The sharing of similar-job access (Atmospheric Technician with Station Engineer; Cargo Tech with Shaft Miner; Medical Doctor with Chemist; Scientist with Roboticist; etc.) was hugely helpful as far as accomplishing shit when you have some combination of lowish but not skeletal population, AFK or tiding coworkers, no command staff, etc.

Was super nice and I really miss it. It made it a lot easier to get things done when within your own department when you can't rely on other people to actually do their jobs (always).

[iain0]

Also preferred the skeleton access mode, the idea that a department's balance is determined by the global population is pretty poor ; you will get many people filling jobs that don't do the job even on high pop, or jobs that aren't even taken, virology access is a good example exclusive to the virologist (who may not exist) and the CMO. If neither of those exists or is on the ball curing a virus then medical's got no access to the pandemic which significantly delays the process (if MDs can even access all the requisite parts, and assuming research is done to build a new one).

Same's true with atmos and engi, often overlap there based on the rather low turnout of people who actively maintain the stations infrastructure.

Probably other places too but these are the big ones for me.

(Edit: On LRP for the above, the stay-in-lane and perhaps expectation people do their roles on MRP may make it more realistic to segregate a departments functions more)

[Timberpoes]

This will always ebb and flow.

I originally requested bonus skeleton access kept permanently on because with nu-IDs I introduced a bug that ignored the config and all my playtesting occurred with everyone having max access. When I fixed the bug, I asked the config be adapted to keep the same end result of permanent skeleton access.

As people got used to the nu-IDs feedback shifted towards "highpop sucks because people keep walking into my subdepartment and doing my job/getting in the way, why do they even have access here?"

As a result, it got disabled again and highpop access was back to the limited amount.

I'm not sure there is a winning move, however the amount of complaints that get forwarded to me is significantly lower with skeleton accesses unavailable in highpop than it ever was with them on every card.

[sinfulbliss]

It makes more sense for some departments and less sense for others. On highpop there will be chemists, almost certainly, so allowing MDs into chemsitry (which has 2-3 workstations, with a limited energy supply) would be detrimental to the chem department. This problem doesn't really exist with, say, engineering having access to atmos, or atmos having access to engineering. It seems those jobs would actually benefit from always having skeleton access, since they're centered around repairing and maintaining a functioning station (the more the merrier, here).

[Aeri]

It makes more sense for some departments and less sense for others. On highpop there will be chemists, almost certainly, so allowing MDs into chemsitry (which has 2-3 workstations, with a limited energy supply) would be detrimental to the chem department. This problem doesn't really exist with, say, engineering having access to atmos, or atmos having access to engineering. It seems those jobs would actually benefit from always having skeleton access, since they're centered around repairing and maintaining a functioning station (the more the merrier, here).

This indeed, every single time that the game says I can't go into atmos as an engineer, I disagree, very loudly, with my tools, as I dismantle and reprogram the door.

Engineers, at the very least, should come preloaded with atmospherics access because in my personal opinion engineers are a lot more common and can do basically the same job, plus it's entirely possible for there to be a reasonable population (not few enough for skeleton access iirc) and there being no atmos techs, and you know what that means, engineers are suddenly required in an area they don't have access to. I say this part only with confidence as I spend equal measures playing an engineer and a clown. People tell me that engineers and atmos techs are different and I want to tear their bloody lips off, one should have at least a working knowledge of the other.

I feel it's a delicate departmental thing though, like I'm not sure a paramedic should be able to blitz into the viro lab, or something,

[BrianBackslide]

I think it's more of a mapping problem. If I'm the cook, am I going to repeatedly ask the botanist to fill my beaker with flour because some chucklehead decided to map the biogenerator in the back of the other department?

No. I'm going to either tailgate my way in or ask to have Botany access. Doctors already have similar access with the Pharmacy. Do we ever want to go back to the days of doctors not having that access? Of the chemist disappearing to fuckwherever and the hapless doctor in need of mannitol just SOL?

The big overlap problem I see is with Engineering and Atmos. They both end up kinda doing each other's work.

[zxaber]

Adjusting access to fit the needs of the crew is half the reason we have the HoP at all. One-off situations (AFK/tiding crew member, sudden important need, etc) can be soved by the HoP, the AI, or just classic breaking in. Most people won't try and stop you if you can pause and explain the dire need that led to you breaking into Chemestry.

There is an agument to be made on the code-side that sub-departments (viro, chemistry, robotics, genetics, mining, and atmos) should have their areas revert to basic department access if absolutely no one has taken a spot in those roles. This is probably what skeleton access was intended to do, and if we had a system dynamically assigning skeleton access to empty sub-departments (at any pop count) we could possibly just do away with the existing skeleton access system.

In my experience with the "full crew" skeleton access, it was little more than an open inventation for the rest of your department to come in and loot anything not nailed down (and sometimes certain things that were), and otherwise stand around just being in the way and loudly demanding their powergamer gear (or pushing you out of the way to make it themselves). It's not terribly fun and the easiest way to fix the problem was just replacing the department-access door with a wall.

(Seriously, most sub-departments have little service windows that face the rest of the department. We should encourage players asking for something with words, not barging in, shoving aside the player actually supposed to be doing a thing, to do it themselves.)

[Ryusenshu]

I would like to see this come back, but the current system has its advantages aswell
It used to be harder to deal with, when robotics had no access to get a slime scan but that got changed thankfully

Dept pop requirement instead of Pop, would work out better in my opinion though
In one highpop round there were only me and another miner in cargo and it was cult
This made it especially hard to deal with it and i was forced to break into cargo bay to order equipment, which ended up taking too long

Really have to agree with Engi / Atmos Access , these jobs are way too connected to be seperated

[Mothblocks]

I miss being able to go into chemistry and get a welding helmet as a doctor but other than that I think what we've had now is fine. By convenience I usually don't end up breaking in to places I used to have access to, there's usually some better way to get what I want or I can just ask the people who are there.

[TheFinalPotato]

I got a lot of complaints from atmos techs about feeling invalidated because engies would just walk in, do the work, and then leave. Using skeleton access to cover for poor base access requirements also seemed silly, and in the end I don't think was necessary
In retrospect perhaps a policy thread would have been useful, rather then just asking the headmins directly. Would have provided a better record. IDK

Mothblocks and zxaber seem to have it right here, though it's semi devolving into code changes which the headmins can't be expected to act on.

[terranaut]

make it so that 2 heads or ai + head can enable skeleton access globally, or a head alone for their department. reverting works the same.
youre welcome

[dragomagol]

We are open to tweaking the population limits for skeleton access in the config, but we are against disabling it entirely.

There are some interesting ideas in this thread, like departmental skeleton access, but as those are currently unimplemented we cannot enable them.

Headmin Votes:
Dragomagol: Agree
RaveRadbury: Agree
NamelessFairy: Agree