update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Locked
User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by iamgoofball » #624268

viewtopic.php?p=624234#p624234
as per MSO's ruling here:
when i made the "This rule applies to ALL OOC bigotry, even when expressed in IC. There is no racism in 2561, just species-ism: there is no homophobia, just xenophiliaphobia, etc." bit of the bigotry rule, for species-ism i was basically thinking of ligger and the goal was to clarify it wouldn't be banned.

It should be valid for (initially non-lethal) escalation however. It's perfectly ic to want to beat the ass of some speciesist asshole.

Spacelaw could also be reworked to take it into account, not sure about the best way to do so, but it's an option.
please append the rules on escalation to include saying the n word with the n swapped for an l, so that players can point to that during ahelps about escalation

additionally,
viewtopic.php?p=624265#p624265
I was going to leave this open to see if the convo moves to space law.

It did not.
mso, according to your admin team, space law isn't a real thing when it comes to the rules, see:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30655

"space law" is not a justification for bypassing the rules page, are you declaring it is? if so please put this on the rules page!!!
User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by iamgoofball » #624272

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, insulting you via speciesist slurs, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)
Here's an example of how updating this rule would look on the rules page.
User avatar
Farquaar
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
Byond Username: Farquaar
Location: Delta Quadrant

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Farquaar » #624322

MSO said IC racism makes you open to non-lethal violence per escalation. He never said it makes you valid. Fix your thread title.
► Show Spoiler
User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by iamgoofball » #624503

you know it really makes u think how many people were in the other thread celebrating this ruling but are mysteriously absent when it comes to the thread where I ask for the ruling to be put in the rules officially
User avatar
Vekter
In-Game Admin
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:25 pm
Byond Username: Vekter
Location: Fucking around with the engine.

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Vekter » #624509

I mean, I'm not down for it making you valid, but I'm down for it being a valid reason to escalate.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
User avatar
Not-Dorsidarf
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #624558

if someone complains after being beaten up by lizards after insulting them fnr the admins should be allowed to tie their shoelaces together
Image
Image
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Cobby » #624620

is there something suggesting contrary to this that you cant escalate against someone targeting you with slurs? What part needs clarification?

I dont think we need to have every permutation in the rules because then it suggests if its not in the magic list its not doable.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by iamgoofball » #624639

Cobby wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:22 am is there something suggesting contrary to this that you cant escalate against someone targeting you with slurs? What part needs clarification?

I dont think we need to have every permutation in the rules because then it suggests if its not in the magic list its not doable.
all of the examples in the escalation list right now are physical in-game actions(theft of an object, actively physically harming your spaceman), and it's safe to assume that you can't retaliate for verbal abuse since all the given examples for retaliation are physical abuse things instead of verbal abuse things

which is why we should explicitly point out that verbal abuse counts as an escalation reason as per MSO's ruling
User avatar
Screemonster
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:23 pm
Byond Username: Scree

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Screemonster » #624651

it's performing an action which is of no benefit to you besides making other people upset
User avatar
GamerAndYeahMick
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:17 pm
Byond Username: GamerAndYeahMick
Location: Quahog

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #624697

no. I would rather have no list AT ALL of things that people could use to justify going around validing everyone, they just should just take it on a case by case basis themselves and justify their level of violence if need be, clearly whenever someone tries to get a rise out of you with their negative words and you respond to that in a reasonable manner no sane admin is going to ban you/note you anyway, and if they did it would get overturned
Image
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Cobby » #624698

It’s “valid” for escalation not makes the individual valid.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
Boot
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 10:16 pm
Byond Username: B00t

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Boot » #624805

iamgoofball wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am
Cobby wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:22 am is there something suggesting contrary to this that you cant escalate against someone targeting you with slurs? What part needs clarification?

I dont think we need to have every permutation in the rules because then it suggests if its not in the magic list its not doable.
all of the examples in the escalation list right now are physical in-game actions(theft of an object, actively physically harming your spaceman), and it's safe to assume that you can't retaliate for verbal abuse since all the given examples for retaliation are physical abuse things instead of verbal abuse things

which is why we should explicitly point out that verbal abuse counts as an escalation reason as per MSO's ruling
Can we add "nyaa" as verbal abuse that opens you up to a non-lethal beating?
Image Image
thgvr
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:43 pm
Byond Username: Thgvr

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by thgvr » #624830

is this going anywhere? the rules should be clearly updated if MSO wants people to be saying "ligger", or other permutations of the nword in character with no threat of admin action being taken against you.

especially since it's "our fun" to say ligger and gas the lizards and and and-
User avatar
The Wrench
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:06 am
Byond Username: The Wrench

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by The Wrench » #624902

Ligger is a pointless slur, and deserves to die in a fire. Simple solution is to make it a valid slur al la WGW
Image
Jonathan Gupta wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:32 pm all you godamn do is whine and complain come up with ideas, stop bitching for christs sake.
Flatulent wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:02 am You and anyone who supports the rule 3 as described by mso is simply put not an lrp player
Image

Image

Image

Image
User avatar
Sylphet
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:35 am
Byond Username: Sylphet
Location: Rent free ~

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Sylphet » #624958

This needs to be done. It needs to be in the rules with the other basic reasons for escalation. All of the other reasons are physical violence, it is not implied that use of slurs is reason for escalation. oh no heheeee clown slip me I am going to MURDER isn't written word for word into the rules either, but that does not create constant policy threads. If we're going to decide that it's an exception to rule 11, it needs to be properly documented or this issue does not go away.
Tell me how much you think that I should be thrown out of the nearest airlock !
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=27175
Boot
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 10:16 pm
Byond Username: B00t

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Boot » #625005

Ligger isn't in violation of rule 11, it is explicitly allowed under precedent 2.
Image Image
User avatar
Sylphet
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:35 am
Byond Username: Sylphet
Location: Rent free ~

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Sylphet » #625026

Boot wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:21 pm Ligger isn't in violation of rule 11, it is explicitly allowed under precedent 2.
That isn't what this thread is about.
Tell me how much you think that I should be thrown out of the nearest airlock !
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=27175
Boot
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 10:16 pm
Byond Username: B00t

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Boot » #625073

Sylphet wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:03 pm
Boot wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:21 pm Ligger isn't in violation of rule 11, it is explicitly allowed under precedent 2.
That isn't what this thread is about.
Just making sure that you know that we arn't talking about some "exception" to the rule here :)
Image Image
User avatar
Not-Dorsidarf
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #625189

Should probbably be generalised to a clause saying "Particularly egregious insults to another character, such as unrestrained speciesism, will get your ass kicked and you can't complain about that"
Image
Image
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
User avatar
Pandarsenic
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Byond Username: Pandarsenic
Location: AI Upload

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Pandarsenic » #625192

There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem. These include ... the insulting or "fighting" words – those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
I once wrote a guide to fixing telecomms woohoo
User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by iamgoofball » #625846

Headmins keep closing the other threads so that means they're updating the rules soon right?
User avatar
Drag
In-Game Admin
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:16 am
Byond Username: Thedragmeme

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Drag » #625848

I don't see why we can't just add the word to the filter. The constant arguments generally agree that "Ligger" is just the N word with a single letter swapped around. It isn't a good "speciest" insult and it dosent feel creative. It just feels like bigatory that's being used to get around the word filter.
User avatar
Itseasytosee2me
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
Byond Username: Rectification
Location: Space Station 13

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #625850

Drag wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:59 pm I don't see why we can't just add the word to the filter. The constant arguments generally agree that "Ligger" is just the N word with a single letter swapped around. It isn't a good "speciest" insult and it dosent feel creative. It just feels like bigatory that's being used to get around the word filter.
See: MSO's ruling on the last thread for the reason given. You do not have to agree with it, but that is the reason nonetheless. In essence, he does not see it as racist despite how creative you think it is.
MSO wrote: The use of the L word on our servers predates the rise in people saying the n word and the rise in bigots on the server.

It was here before the bigots, it will be here after the bigots, and I refuse to let them take our fun.
Ultimately it's not a racial slur and has been used in non-bigoted way in the past. Words are a social construct, they have the meaning you give them.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
See you later
User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by iamgoofball » #625869

stop talking about mso catering to the most uncreative racists on the server, this thread isn't about that, it's about putting mso's ruling on the rules page, keep it on topic or ill start reporting posts
User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by iamgoofball » #628656

Given that escalation policy was rewritten, we need to work this MSO declaration into the new escalation policy. Does anyone have proposals on phrasing? Otherwise I can do it myself.
User avatar
NamelessFairy
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 pm
Byond Username: NamelessFairy

Re: update the rules to clarify that saying the n word with the n swapped for an l makes you valid as per MSO's ruling

Post by NamelessFairy » #628658

The following ruling is paraphrased from MSOs ruling on the forums as well as internal discussions with them.
As per MSO's ruling. A player expressing speciesism is valid for (initially non-lethal) escalation. It is perfectly IC to want to beat up some speciesist asshole. However, if you use speciesism to initiate conflict you can still be punished at an administrative level for winning those fights under the guise of self-defence. Admins should enforce this with the goal of preventing players from being speciesist so that they can "valid" those who respond to it with violence.
We will be adding this ruling to the escalation section of the Head Admin ruling page.

Headmin Votes:
NamelessFairy: Agree
Dragomagol: Agree
RaveRadbury: Agree
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users