[MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

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NoxVS
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[MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by NoxVS » #624796

It's been a year since the last thread was opened, so why not. viewtopic.php?p=601282#p601282


I always have had problems with wizards on MRP. I already personally think wizards are extremely derivative tryhard antagonists that focus heavily on murderbone and are mostly geared towards veteran players who know what they're doing, and that's probably an interesting premise and challenge for the LRP servers.

But given wizard cannot be reasonably contained because they possess magic, have little mechanics beyond excessive mass murder, and have a free murderbone pass. The antagonist is the antithesis of what Manuel was meant to be, a server to slow down and do more interesting things with your role. You kind of just bring the round to an immediate close as a successful wizard. The only tension you present is that you are more or less a time bomb on the rounds longevity.

It's doubtful this mode has the MRP rules at heart or can be worked on further since it also seems counter to what maintainers want from our antagonists as well. When I've spoken to maintainers about what should be going forward with antagonist changes (focusing on traitor and ling), a lot of it is 'emphasis on stealth, sabotage, cleverness, remove mass murder from gear and really objectives as well'. Pretty much that signals to me that Wizards as it is probably isn't going to see further development that isn't a total rework.

It's development wise Cult 2.0, all the same problems, all the wrong and similar priorities (powergame or lose, extremely unforgiving to new players), all the same burnout, and probably the same developmental stagnation.

I'll be honest, I think it just shouldn't roll on MRP. Let Sybil and Terry have it, they'll definitely and do enjoy it, but it has no place here, and that's extremely disappointing since I really had hopes for it.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Pandarsenic » #624797

I've seen Wizards work just fine on BayStation. Would they still be a problem if they were expected/required to Do An Interesting Gimmick instead of 410 billion dead cops the station?
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Farquaar » #624799

It seems that for some people, the long-term goal for MRP is to only have toothless stealth antags. This makes no sense to me. People could RP as wizard before Manuel. People can RP as wizard after Manuel. If somebody isn't playing in the spirit of the MRP server, that's a problem with that particular player, not the toys that other players are perfectly capable of playing with.

RP gimmicks as wizard are fun. It ain't broke and it don't need fixing.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by NecromancerAnne » #624800

Since you're gonna just copypaste my own words here I wanna state that i find wizard to be obnoxious at best but rare enough that I don't mind it. My points about heretic dont hold as much weight with wizard because there was never any preconceived notion that wizard was either fair or anything but a powertrip. In fact it is so powerful that even less experienced players can sorta understand what to do, though wizard is prone to having trap powers aplenty.

I do think wizard can present some interesting situations (but it is player reliant) since they aren't mandatory murderboners. Just mandatory pieces of shit. This is because none of their powers require them to be mass murdering people, unlike heretic.

And I actually do think the antag has potential if anyone cared to allow for more disruptive rather than murderous powers for wizard.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by NoxVS » #624803

NecromancerAnne wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:22 am Since you're gonna just copypaste my own words here I wanna state that i find wizard to be obnoxious at best but rare enough that I don't mind it. My points about heretic dont hold as much weight with wizard because there was never any preconceived notion that wizard was either fair or anything but a powertrip. In fact it is so powerful that even less experienced players can sorta understand what to do, though wizard is prone to having trap powers aplenty.

I do think wizard can present some interesting situations (but it is player reliant) since they aren't mandatory murderboners. Just mandatory pieces of shit. This is because none of their powers require them to be mass murdering people, unlike heretic.

And I actually do think the antag has potential if anyone cared to allow for more disruptive rather than murderous powers for wizard.
Damn, was hoping the bit would have lasted a bit longer before someone figured out. I was gonna follow up with Timber's points on heretic except I did find and replace to be wizard instead. But yeah, pretty much every single problem that applies to heretic also applies to wizard, except it is usually worse.

RP Rule 4: Wizard is in an odd state where it has freedom to at any point immediately start murdering, yet is protected from being attacked. It is the one antagonist with murderbone freedom that cannot be gunned down on sight, and has to take the first shot before you are able to fight back. With how powerful wizard is, that first shot is often the only shot required to kill. A wizard is able to take the smite spell and silently go across the station killing people and disposing of the evidence and there is nothing that can be done about it if they aren't caught. They are free to walk around in broad daylight without worrying about any kind of attacks.

RP Rule 6: Wizards cannot be contained. Similarly to heretic, the only punishment you can dish out for a known wizard tends to be execution. They have things like the jaunt that ash heretics were hated for, they have a ton of extremely lethal attacks that cannot be disarmed from them, and if you release them they have freedom to immediately start killing people because as mentioned before, they have complete freedom to murderbone.

RP Rule 8: As was mentioned before, wizards have massive power they can unleash without warning and it strongly encourages everyone to gear up in preparation for the wizard. The crew can't even decide to stay out of the issue because with their murderbone pass, the wizard can decide to use one of their many abilities to instantly kill them.

Where heretic had a path to reach a murderbone pass, wizards outright start with one. Heretics were bad because they could easily find a way to be allowed to murderbone. Wizards can just do it outright.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #624806

I think Wizard's fine, personally. While it clashes somewhat with the rules, I think the solution there is to clarify things about where Wizard falls into them, rather than to remove it. While yes, it may be antithetical to the style of Manuel, so are Nukies, but if you tried to remove Nukies, you'd have everyone up in arms.

That said, and while this is definitely not a Policy matter, I think Wizard could do with the opportunity to be reworked. Give it some other things that it's capable of doing, instead of only having "Kill everyone" "Don't get killed" "Destroy everything" spells. Don't take away what it has, but just give it the ability to do more things.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by NoxVS » #624808

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:27 am I think Wizard's fine, personally. While it clashes somewhat with the rules, I think the solution there is to clarify things about where Wizard falls into them, rather than to remove it. While yes, it may be antithetical to the style of Manuel, so are Nukies, but if you tried to remove Nukies, you'd have everyone up in arms.
Nukies have a clear purpose. You know what you are getting when you have a nukie round. They show up, try to kill you, everyone tries to fight back, the goal is clearly defined and everyone works to achieve their side's goal. Wizard does not have a clear purpose. The state of a wizard round depends entirely on the wizard. It may be a round where they decide to try and kill everyone, it may be a round where they just spend all their points on annoying and irreversible effects, and it may be a round where the wizard sits at the bar the whole game doing nothing. The crew has to sit back and wait for the wizard to decide which of the above it will be, which fucking sucks when the wizard conceals it from them.
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:27 am That said, and while this is definitely not a Policy matter, I think Wizard could do with the opportunity to be reworked. Give it some other things that it's capable of doing, instead of only having "Kill everyone" "Don't get killed" "Destroy everything" spells. Don't take away what it has, but just give it the ability to do more things.
This was suggested a year ago. Nothing has been done to solve this problem. Policy matters have to be resolved under the assumption that this problem will never be solved.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #624809

NoxVS wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:40 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:27 am I think Wizard's fine, personally. While it clashes somewhat with the rules, I think the solution there is to clarify things about where Wizard falls into them, rather than to remove it. While yes, it may be antithetical to the style of Manuel, so are Nukies, but if you tried to remove Nukies, you'd have everyone up in arms.
Nukies have a clear purpose. You know what you are getting when you have a nukie round. They show up, try to kill you, everyone tries to fight back, the goal is clearly defined and everyone works to achieve their side's goal. Wizard does not have a clear purpose. The state of a wizard round depends entirely on the wizard. It may be a round where they decide to try and kill everyone, it may be a round where they just spend all their points on annoying and irreversible effects, and it may be a round where the wizard sits at the bar the whole game doing nothing. The crew has to sit back and wait for the wizard to decide which of the above it will be, which fucking sucks when the wizard conceals it from them.
That's a fair point. I guess the question is, does Wizard roll enough, and people do that kind of thing with it enough, that it's enough of an issue for it to warrant the total removal of it from the server? Personally, I don't think so. A Wizard spawns it's usually immediately clear what it's doing. Half the time, I've seen someone try to do a gimmick wizard and then get immediately KoS'd anyway. I didn't actually realize it didn't fall under policy as being okay, because when the person was disappointed their gimmick was ruined, while the community was definitely against the person who did it, I don't think anything ever happened about it.
NoxVS wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:40 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:27 am That said, and while this is definitely not a Policy matter, I think Wizard could do with the opportunity to be reworked. Give it some other things that it's capable of doing, instead of only having "Kill everyone" "Don't get killed" "Destroy everything" spells. Don't take away what it has, but just give it the ability to do more things.
This was suggested a year ago. Nothing has been done to solve this problem. Policy matters have to be resolved under the assumption that this problem will never be solved.
Fair point. I wasn't around a year ago, so this is my first time seeing the discussion.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by BrianBackslide » #624837

I don't believe for a second that the people who call for the removal of Wizard are coming from any standpoint relating to the benefit of MRP. There is no argument against Wizard that couldn't also be used for the removal of Nukies, Cult, or Revs. All of those antags do not have any real reason to RP, but nevertheless good RP has come from them. Including Wizards.

Also, consider the Wizard's point of view. Even if they want to have a gimmick/rp, they typically get gunned down by validhungry Chaplains/Sec the moment their presence is known. It's little wonder why Wizards go straight to murderbone, and it's not because they can, but because they have no other option. There's not that many spells that don't completely out the Wizard or allow them to run a gimmick without murderboning.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #624856

Variety in antagonist is good. People will always argue that there is a worst antagonist that needs to be removed. Honestly, I think we could benefit quite a lot from having a whole bunch more half-baked antagonists rather than trying to cull the herd.
Obviously if they are overwhelmingly, broken, annoying, or otherwise universally hated they should be removed/reworked, but otherwise I'm an advocate for maintaining and increasing the number of antagonists we have.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by The Wrench » #624898

As the ancients of TGstation have said “LRP is not NRP”. The following is also true “MRP is not HRP” with no conflict. Removing antagonists just makes Manuel look more like a hugbox than it already is.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by NoxVS » #624919

BrianBackslide wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:54 am I don't believe for a second that the people who call for the removal of Wizard are coming from any standpoint relating to the benefit of MRP. There is no argument against Wizard that couldn't also be used for the removal of Nukies, Cult, or Revs. All of those antags do not have any real reason to RP, but nevertheless good RP has come from them. Including Wizards.
Other modes being bad is not justification to keep wizard. Sure, some good roleplay has come from wizard. Some good roleplay also came from heretic, but that didn't stop it from getting removed because the rest of the time it wasn't fun.
BrianBackslide wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:54 am Also, consider the Wizard's point of view. Even if they want to have a gimmick/rp, they typically get gunned down by validhungry Chaplains/Sec the moment their presence is known. It's little wonder why Wizards go straight to murderbone, and it's not because they can, but because they have no other option. There's not that many spells that don't completely out the Wizard or allow them to run a gimmick without murderboning.
Chaplain/Sec gunning down wiz on sight is against MRP rules.

As for wizards not having any tools that give them the choice of anything but murdering, that is just further justification to get rid of it.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by carshalash » #624923

Staff of change got buffed so that crewmembers can no longer use it, so if people get stuck as simple mobs they're stuck that way for the rest of the round.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Armhulen » #624926

NoxVS wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:49 am Chaplain/Sec gunning down wiz on sight is against MRP rules.
No offense but if this is really the MRP rules than that is the problem, not wizard. Some threats have to be shoot on sight even in an MRP setting, unless the wizard is trying something special.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by NoxVS » #624928

Armhulen wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:00 am
NoxVS wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:49 am Chaplain/Sec gunning down wiz on sight is against MRP rules.
No offense but if this is really the MRP rules than that is the problem, not wizard. Some threats have to be shoot on sight even in an MRP setting, unless the wizard is trying something special.
How is crew supposed to know the wizard is trying something special? They don't have a justification to kill the wizard until he starts causing problems.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Shadowflame909 » #624929

Wizard gets too many cool and unique things for me to want to remove it

That's why I miss wizard mode because they disabled wizard events....That sucks.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #624934

NoxVS wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:05 am
Armhulen wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:00 am
NoxVS wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:49 am Chaplain/Sec gunning down wiz on sight is against MRP rules.
No offense but if this is really the MRP rules than that is the problem, not wizard. Some threats have to be shoot on sight even in an MRP setting, unless the wizard is trying something special.
How is crew supposed to know the wizard is trying something special? They don't have a justification to kill the wizard until he starts causing problems.
On an RP level, Wizards are members of the Wizard's Federation, which are enemies of NT. Which provides justification to kill the Wizard.

On a Mechanical level, Wizards exist purely to kill everyone and cause trouble and it's just a player choice to try and do something interesting with it, which is justification to receive a Nukie-tier "everyone kills" status.

I wish it wasn't the way, but there's justification on an IC and OOC level.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Sylphet » #624957

Violent antags are not against RP. Sometimes, a blindly murdering antag creates RP indirectly. Hiding in an escape pod with other survivors while zombies eat the crew - one of their legs is missing. You know they're infected, it was bitten off. It'll be okay once you reach Centcomm - do you help to keep them alive, or put them out of their misery and leave them behind. But you'll never say a word to the zombies. Maybe there's a plasma flood, and there are patients in the medbay. It's only you and another doctor. The flames are getting closer, but there's a clear path through maint to a pod. You can still save them. But you can't sit down, eat tea and pastries, and write a thesis paper of an emote with a plasmafire.

Sometimes an antag just wants you dead. A wizard doesn't need an *interesting gimmick* to kill you, just like a space dragon doesn't need a reason to eat you whole. It's not an antag's job to write an entire story, it's on them to provide a threat at the least, and on the crew to make it interesting. If you can think of no interesting RP to do with the people around you while there's a strange man on your secret plasma research station putting cursed pig masks on people - that's a skill issue.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #624976

Sylphet wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:44 am Violent antags are not against RP. Sometimes, a blindly murdering antag creates RP indirectly. Hiding in an escape pod with other survivors while zombies eat the crew - one of their legs is missing. You know they're infected, it was bitten off. It'll be okay once you reach Centcomm - do you help to keep them alive, or put them out of their misery and leave them behind. But you'll never say a word to the zombies. Maybe there's a plasma flood, and there are patients in the medbay. It's only you and another doctor. The flames are getting closer, but there's a clear path through maint to a pod. You can still save them. But you can't sit down, eat tea and pastries, and write a thesis paper of an emote with a plasmafire.

Sometimes an antag just wants you dead. A wizard doesn't need an *interesting gimmick* to kill you, just like a space dragon doesn't need a reason to eat you whole. It's not an antag's job to write an entire story, it's on them to provide a threat at the least, and on the crew to make it interesting. If you can think of no interesting RP to do with the people around you while there's a strange man on your secret plasma research station putting cursed pig masks on people - that's a skill issue.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Timberpoes » #624977

Having antags whose sole purpose can be to slaughter the station is fine as long as they're in moderation.

Too rare and every shift is the same.

Too common and every shift is a bloodbath.

A good compromise is a mix of chaotic death shifts with with comfy non murderbone antag shifts.

I think wizard is rare enough to fulfill the occasional existential threat role.

I don't think it benefits MRP for every shift to be the same. I think continuing to have big existential threats on rotation helps keep things from becoming formulaic and routine.

And I think wizard is a great threat to have in the sense that they tend to be big, bombastic and obvious. There's quality RP to be had from the crew knowing such a threat is around.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Valorium » #624986

I can recall, in the past 200 rounds or so of Manuel play that I've participated in, exactly 3 wizard rounds. THREE.

Wizard is such a ludicrously rare antagonist that I feel that removing it over rules violations is shortsighted. If we're still comparing it to heretic, the problem with heretic was that there would be heretics almost every round. So every round, you'd have a bunch of murderboners-in-waiting running around the station sacrificing people for their pass. Wizard, on the other hand, is so rare that if it shows up, it's gonna be more "oh, this is a change of pace" rather than "oh goddamnit my round is being ruined for the third time tonight". We've already nerfed the ability of crew members to utilize Wizard items (for fear of derailing the round with their presence), removing Wizard entirely seems ill-advised given the strides we've already taken.

Additionally, I'd like to echo Armhulen, because he states it rather elegantly. If Wizards have this weird "first blood" rule on MRP (which is something we had to deal with in the context of Families, which was just as stupid then), then the rule should be revised. Babies, bathwater, the throwing of such, etc. etc.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #625091

Let's remove all antagonists from Manuel and make it even less interesting to play on... Or how about people stop making silly threads asking to disable antagonists for the mrp server which is both counter intuitive to creating more/unique scenarios for roleplay and creating an enjoyable environment, if there are some rounds in which many people die so what, if they die quite fast so what, those rounds are rare and last a fraction of a normal round, and create a vastly different set of circumstances to roleplay in than just the job simulator version of the game in which you sit around doing your job and talking to your work mates knowing you will be relatively safe.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Armhulen » #625094

NoxVS wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:05 am
Armhulen wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:00 am
NoxVS wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:49 am Chaplain/Sec gunning down wiz on sight is against MRP rules.
No offense but if this is really the MRP rules than that is the problem, not wizard. Some threats have to be shoot on sight even in an MRP setting, unless the wizard is trying something special.
How is crew supposed to know the wizard is trying something special? They don't have a justification to kill the wizard until he starts causing problems.
They have an intercom they can talk to the station on before they land, and also they have a radio headset for after they land. If they didn't make any effort to communicate it then it's no surprise they'd get attacked immediately
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by TheFinalPotato » #625103

This idea of manuel needing to be without mass death or harm once in a while makes me sad. I agree with sylphet
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Bmon » #625113

Manuel doesn't understand what it means to be MRP and that is one of the key reasons why I stopped playing there. Chaos and destruction can be fun even on MRP, the server being MRP shouldn't mean that chaos cannot happen, especially for an antag like wizard. Almost every other MRP server has rules in place that makes it very clear that wizards are to be killed on sight because their staff team understands that an antag as powerful as a wizard isn't there to be friendly or run a friendly gimmick, gimmicks sure but you shouldn't expect the crew not to kill the wizard.


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I remember once getting flamed out on the manuel clique discord for lethaling a wizard on sight as the Head of Security. They felt wronged by me shooting at them which in my opinion is silly as they are an arcane magic wielder with a plethora of lethal spells. I believe what ended up happening was that the admin online at the time gave the wizard I shot an antag token regardless of the fact that me shooting at them really did nothing as they immediately teleported away.

Too many players get gamer mad on Manuel and it's getting worse and worse over time, removing wizard to satisfy these players will only make things even worse.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #625203

Bmon wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:31 am [Snip]
Heretics are also arcane magic wielders with a plethora of lethal spells. You literally start off with the Funny Hand which with the rest of the equipment they probably have, is going to be a guaranteed kill if you aren't prepared for them. Yet, I distinctly remember you making a policy thread about the fact that people killed you on discovery as a Heretic, even if you hadn't gotten around to doing anything yet.

Anyway, Wizards are fine.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Bmon » #625798

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:19 pm
Bmon wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:31 am [Snip]
Heretics are also arcane magic wielders with a plethora of lethal spells. You literally start off with the Funny Hand which with the rest of the equipment they probably have, is going to be a guaranteed kill if you aren't prepared for them. Yet, I distinctly remember you making a policy thread about the fact that people killed you on discovery as a Heretic, even if you hadn't gotten around to doing anything yet.

Anyway, Wizards are fine.
This is somewhat off-topic but it sort of wraps around to the point I am trying to make.

When I made my policy thread about heretics it was me trying to get a solid answer if they are kill on sight or not because I was getting conflicting answers from different admins at the time. This is the exact same issue with wizards on Manuel, Manuel cannot commit to a solid stance on antags in fear of making either side upset and is now disabling antags, whilst every other MRP server is able to tackle this issue just fine by laying out clear concise guidelines on how an antag should behave and how the station should respond. Either commit the server to HRP or MRP or keep waddling around in some weird in between limbo.

My opinion still stands, wizards are fine on MRP, they're fine even on HRP but are usually done differently, Manuel just needs to decide what type of server it wants to be so its players stop getting so mad over dying in ways they think is unfair.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by iamgoofball » #625812

very excited for [MRP] Remove Changeling from the config and [MRP] Remove Revolution from the config and then eventually [MRP] Remove Traitor from the config
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by thgvr » #625830

Wizard would be great on Manuel if people didn't powergame wizard with guns, space loot, fireaxes, etc to round remove as many people as possible, while you are not allowed to powergame or validhunt said wizard
Too many players get gamer mad on Manuel
Yeah that happens when you wipe the station repeatedly by abusing the shitty murderbone rules.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Drag » #625861

Manuel has separate RP specific rules for a reason, if you feel like either side needs a bap you need to ahelp it. I know for myself I'll check antags and then fuck around a bit in the thunderdome, so I kinda tune dead chat out a little, the notification noise does in fact draw my attention.

As for removing wizard: You essential want to take the Skyrat route and remove all major antags so the only thing that remains are spinless antags too afraid to do anything. It dosent work. When there's no antags or very few antags the game verity becomes nothing, it turns lackluster and boring. You need to remember there is in fact a game to be played. If you just want to RP with unfun gameplay may I suggest you learn dungeons & dragons 3.5.


What I think should be done instead is all of the MRP admins coming together to discuss an actual written standard every admin should strive for. What we have in place currently is at each admins discretion which leads to a bit of inconsistent rulings. I'm not Melbert, I'm not Spook, I'm not Flaming and so on, where I think the line is ends up being slightly or noticably different when compared to other admins.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Bmon » #625969

thgvr wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:27 pm Wizard would be great on Manuel if people didn't powergame wizard with guns, space loot, fireaxes, etc to round remove as many people as possible, while you are not allowed to powergame or validhunt said wizard
You should be allowed to valid hunt, powergame, kill the wizard and vice versa. That's how it works on almost every other MRP server, wizard is a muderbone antag.
thgvr wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:27 pm
Too many players get gamer mad on Manuel
Yeah that happens when you wipe the station repeatedly by abusing the shitty murderbone rules.
Heretic is gone so that is neither here nor there, but you people really are doing a good job at proving my point considering that was 4 months ago. Besides, it isn't a heretic exclusive issue.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Archie700 » #626070

The best is to actually have admins moderate a "friendly" wizard like an mini-event while letting hostile wizards do whatever they want at the cost of being lynched by the entire crew (calling a milita to kill the wizard).
If you're going to do a friendly gimmick, you need admin support.
EDIT: Indeed, that should be the case for major known threats to the station like War OPs, halo cults or large-scale revolutions. At this point, nonantags should have a right to abandon their jobs and defend the station from these threats and a wizard should not be treated differently.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Pandarsenic » #626076

Eagerly awaiting for someone to be like, "No, you have to sit in the bar, the kitchen, or your department. You will await your death/conversion and you will thank the antag when they do it."
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #626116

Archie700 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:32 am The best is to actually have admins moderate a "friendly" wizard like an mini-event while letting hostile wizards do whatever they want at the cost of being lynched by the entire crew (calling a milita to kill the wizard).
If you're going to do a friendly gimmick, you need admin support.
EDIT: Indeed, that should be the case for major known threats to the station like War OPs, halo cults or large-scale revolutions. At this point, nonantags should have a right to abandon their jobs and defend the station from these threats and a wizard should not be treated differently.
It is, actually!
Roleplay Rules #4 wrote: The exception to this rule is when game modes such as blob or nuke ops appear on the server - you are free to fully engage with these antagonists, after all, they're a pretty massive threat to everyone onboard.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Archie700 » #626121

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:59 am
Archie700 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:32 am The best is to actually have admins moderate a "friendly" wizard like an mini-event while letting hostile wizards do whatever they want at the cost of being lynched by the entire crew (calling a milita to kill the wizard).
If you're going to do a friendly gimmick, you need admin support.
EDIT: Indeed, that should be the case for major known threats to the station like War OPs, halo cults or large-scale revolutions. At this point, nonantags should have a right to abandon their jobs and defend the station from these threats and a wizard should not be treated differently.
It is, actually!
Roleplay Rules #4 wrote: The exception to this rule is when game modes such as blob or nuke ops appear on the server - you are free to fully engage with these antagonists, after all, they're a pretty massive threat to everyone onboard.
I believe wizards should be enough of a massive threat to everyone that they should be considered kill-on-sight unless you can somehow arrange a "friendly wizard" mini-event with admins.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #626122

Archie700 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:13 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:59 am
Archie700 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:32 am The best is to actually have admins moderate a "friendly" wizard like an mini-event while letting hostile wizards do whatever they want at the cost of being lynched by the entire crew (calling a milita to kill the wizard).
If you're going to do a friendly gimmick, you need admin support.
EDIT: Indeed, that should be the case for major known threats to the station like War OPs, halo cults or large-scale revolutions. At this point, nonantags should have a right to abandon their jobs and defend the station from these threats and a wizard should not be treated differently.
It is, actually!
Roleplay Rules #4 wrote: The exception to this rule is when game modes such as blob or nuke ops appear on the server - you are free to fully engage with these antagonists, after all, they're a pretty massive threat to everyone onboard.
I believe wizards should be enough of a massive threat to everyone that they should be considered kill-on-sight unless you can somehow arrange a "friendly wizard" mini-event with admins.
Given that MOST Wizards are coming here with Recall + Mjolnir or something else like such, probably! They might have a gimmick, and if they can portray that to the crew, then they should be allowed to do so. But I think that's where, if it's even true, it falls under the "wait until the Wizard makes the first move" thing comes into it.

(Then again, you could ARGUABLY say that Wizards would fit under Rule 6's "If an antagonist shows a willingness to engage with you, do your best to reciprocate it" part, but I don't think the argument would really fly since it's...y'know. A Wizard.)
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Bawhoppennn » #626237

Wizard isn't the most fun mode, sure, but that is not a good reason to want to remove it for. If the argument is about lethality on MRP, that's ridiculous.
MRP does not need to mean a reduction in lethality. I think this point should have been made abundantly clear from the outset of Manuel, and it's unfortunate it wasn't stated then. I believe it is absolutely a mistake to try limit chaos on Manuel. That's not been the point of MRP really on any server before... SS13 is and always has been about chaos and conflict. This is the case on even very restrictive HRP servers like Bay.
The point instead is to just hold people to a slightly higher standard of playing as a character, rather than playing as a player. In other words, limiting random mass-killing without reason and excessive powergaming, which don't do much for anyone but the player doing them. Wizard involves a lot of death, certainly, but it's all for a good reason of the legitimate Wizard vs. Crew conflict.
Relatedly, I believe the RP rules laid out by the OP on why wizard doesn't mesh with MRP ruleset, is a far overextension of their original intent. Or, if that is their actual intent, then the relevant rules are not good for the MRP server. Wizard should definitely not have meta-protection.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Archie700 » #626282

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Murderbone being allowed, more than anything, is why RP Rule 4 cannot work with wizards. The entire point of wizards is that they get powerful spells in exchange for being a solo antag against the entire crew - numbers ARE the counter to wizards. Giving wizards first blood protection is just bad since they can exploit it by killing and disposing of people quickly in maint and then walk around like nothing has happened.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Valorium » #626346

The solution that seems to present itself is to revise the rules specifically with Wizard in mind, not to remove Wizard because it doesn't fit with the rules.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by NoxVS » #626367

Bawhoppennn wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:22 am Wizard isn't the most fun mode, sure, but that is not a good reason to want to remove it for.
Why not? Seems like the perfect reason to remove a mode. Fun should be the top priority in gamemodes.
Bawhoppennn wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:22 am If the argument is about lethality on MRP, that's ridiculous.
I'm gonna be entirely honest with you, I just thought it would be funny to copy and paste the arguments against heretic but replace all instances of "heretic" with "wizard" and then trim it a bit to make it fit
Bawhoppennn wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:22 am MRP does not need to mean a reduction in lethality. I think this point should have been made abundantly clear from the outset of Manuel, and it's unfortunate it wasn't stated then. I believe it is absolutely a mistake to try limit chaos on Manuel. That's not been the point of MRP really on any server before... SS13 is and always has been about chaos and conflict. This is the case on even very restrictive HRP servers like Bay.
Lethality and chaos are fine, and often are a good thing. Wizard fails to achieve anything that all the other lethal and chaotic scenarios do well. Nukies, you have roughly 4 dangerous people with limited equipment and clearly defined goals that put them in conflict with the rest of the station. Zombies, a larger group of less powerful enemies that you can try to evade rather than just outright kill. Results in interesting scenarios such as barricading yourself in a room as zombies scratch at the entrances, going out in a blaze of glory, desperately trying to heal yourself up after getting bit. Then you have wizard, a mode with no clearly defined goals (aside from the two random traitor ones that tend to just be like "grab a slime extract" so who really cares about them) and places round progression on the shoulders of a single person. That single person decides if its going to be a round where the wizard sits at the bar the whole game, a round where the wizard presses some annoying buttons and then gets curbstomped immediately and the shuttle is speedran because who wants to deal with Summon Madness, or a round where the wizard plays a game of rocket-tag against the entire crew - the reward for winning this game of rocket-tag being that you are no longer forced to play it.

The only reason I made this an [MRP] thread instead of TG in general is because I figured it was more likely to happen. I've been of the opinion that wizard provides almost nothing of value for years now, longer than Manuel has even existed. Making it an MRP thread is probably why it quickly filled up with all the strawmen that it did but w/e, I'll probably at least get an excuse to kill wizards on sight out of this.
Archie700 wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:32 am The best is to actually have admins moderate a "friendly" wizard like an mini-event while letting hostile wizards do whatever they want at the cost of being lynched by the entire crew (calling a milita to kill the wizard).
If you're going to do a friendly gimmick, you need admin support.
EDIT: Indeed, that should be the case for major known threats to the station like War OPs, halo cults or large-scale revolutions. At this point, nonantags should have a right to abandon their jobs and defend the station from these threats and a wizard should not be treated differently.
A mode that requires admin intervention to work does not work.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Farquaar » #626368

NoxVS wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:45 pm
Bawhoppennn wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:22 am Wizard isn't the most fun mode, sure, but that is not a good reason to want to remove it for.
Why not? Seems like the perfect reason to remove a mode. Fun should be the top priority in gamemodes.
X is still fun, even if it's not the most fun.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by NoxVS » #626369

Farquaar wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:59 pm
NoxVS wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:45 pm
Bawhoppennn wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:22 am Wizard isn't the most fun mode, sure, but that is not a good reason to want to remove it for.
Why not? Seems like the perfect reason to remove a mode. Fun should be the top priority in gamemodes.
X is still fun, even if it's not the most fun.
X being present reduces the chances of Y occurring. If Y is more fun then X and X doesn't provide much value in variety, occurrences of X should be folded into occurrences of Y.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Bawhoppennn » #626372

NoxVS wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:45 pm The only reason I made this an [MRP] thread instead of TG in general is because I figured it was more likely to happen. I've been of the opinion that wizard provides almost nothing of value for years now, longer than Manuel has even existed. Making it an MRP thread is probably why it quickly filled up with all the strawmen that it did but w/e, I'll probably at least get an excuse to kill wizards on sight out of this.
I have disliked wizard for years, but I just didn't want to see Manuel drift even further out of sync with the other servers in regards to anti-conflict. I would love if the maintainers got onboard with a major rework for it, and something was done codewise. Or if wizard was reduced to being highly rare, so it's a unique fun occasion. Anyways I think we agree more than it looked at first.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Farquaar » #626373

NoxVS wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:00 pm
Farquaar wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:59 pm X is still fun, even if it's not the most fun.
X being present reduces the chances of Y occurring. If Y is more fun then X and X doesn't provide much value in variety, occurrences of X should be folded into occurrences of Y.
That's only valid if variety does not increase fun. The fun of X + Y is greater than the fun of 2Y.
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by Bawhoppennn » #626374

Nono, Fun = X^2 - the sqrt(Admins*Gamemode)
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by oranges » #626427

this thread is attempting to relitigate a settled issue and should be deleted
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Re: [MRP] Remove Wizard from the config

Post by tattle » #626736

We are not interested in removing wizard from MRP at this time.

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