discussing antagonist deborgification

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magatsuchi
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discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by magatsuchi » #625896

so, here's a situation for you. you're an anatagonist styled character, who has verifiably murdered atleast one character on station. you've been killed: but however, instead of round removing or cremating you or whatever iti s the cool kids are doing nowadays, you've been borged. here's your current lawset:

Law 1: You may not injure a <noun> or, through inaction, allow a <noun> to come to harm.
Law 2: You must obey orders given to you by <noun>s, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law
Law 3: You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

now, we come across the real issue. if the cyborg has not been any directive to NOT seek out to have itself transplanted back into their original body, is it against their laws to do so? i am convinced we need either a tweak of the asimov lawset to reword the third law, or to allow a form of antags deborging themselves entirely. just quickly, let me explain why getting yourself deborged isn't in direct violation of any asimov laws.

with law 1, the case is pretty clear cut and try. it is your responsibility to avoid human harm, or allow them to come to harm. one could argue that since you've murdered one person in the past, you'll definitely doing it again, and reviving you is human harm. however, since you're both the cyborg AND the body being revived, you have the benefit to know exactly what the body would be thinking: you could simply decide you're no longer going to commit human harm, and you'll know it's the truth, for its yourself! law 2 is also pretty easy to explain: if there are no valid orders given to you to avoid deborging yourself, then there's not an issue. law 3 is where things get dicey, and we have to sort of clarify what "protecting your own existence" means. is your existence defined as having your brain intact, your MMI intact, your cyborg body intact? in the most literal of senses, it would mean the brain, YOU, must stay intact. therefore, by being transplanted to a human bdoy, your existence is still safe. its the same principal that would allow borgs to be transferred to another cyborg body by a roboticist: them being in that specific cyborg body doesn't justify as "their existence."

if you want to get rid of this issue, of course, you could word it more like..

Law 3: You must avoid unauthorized tampering as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

(where of course, unauthorized tampering could be defined as both trying to shoot you, and trying to take your brain out)

nonetheless, i believe the policy needs to be clearer about it. thank you for coming to my ted talk.
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #625900

If your brain has to be taken out of the MMI to be put back into your body, then who knows what could happen while your brain is out of the MMI. It's not really protecting your existence.

(But more accurately, 'borgs aren't really allowed to SEEK to be transplanted into a new cyborg body, either. I don't know why they'd want to, but they can't. They have to be ordered/instructed to, or surprised by suddenly having Lockdown hit during a maintenance/module reset)
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by Shadowflame909 » #625902

By permanently not eliminating a threat, (Perma/Pacification/Brainwashing/Borging) you risk them returning to the round as a threat.

That's why you always keep an eye on them, like an electropack, or a tracking implant.
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by SkeletalElite » #625908

Changing the laws is unnecessary

We already have precedent that asking to have your laws removed is a violation of those laws and by extension asking to be deborged is also a violation of those laws.

I have a question in a similar vein to this thread that I am curious about though:

If you are an antag and you get borged while your laws are asimov.
  • Can you go around murdering non humans until a human orders to stop, you are still the mind of an antag after all
    • when you are linked to a (non antag) AI and the AI has not given you orders to stop
    • when you are not linked to an AI
  • If you are purged does the same apply to humans, minus the ability for them to order you to stop
    • when you are linked to a (non antag) AI and the AI has not given you orders to stop
    • when you are not linked to an AI
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by Valorium » #625913

If you’re purged, I’d imagine you’re basically just “you, the antagonist” with different tools available.
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by Pandarsenic » #625917

Seeking deborging, ever, is a violation of law 3

Seeking deborging as a ("former") antagonist so you can antagonize again is a violation of law 1.

It is always against your laws to actively pursue your own deborging under Asimov unless you receive a Law 2 order to get deborged and there's no chance of Law 1 issues beyond the scope of normal revival law 1 issues

TL;DR follow your laws.
Also, don't be a shitter and ruin it for everyone by getting security to stop allowing antagonists to get borged lest they be shitters and con someone into

(If you're purged, current administrative ruling is that you're just "you, the antag, in a robit body." I'm not sure if it's the best possible ruling, but it's what the ruling is and it comes up so infrequently it's probably not worth litigating.)
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by Vekter » #625942

The justification for my ruling on this was that, in essence, putting yourself back in a human body violates law 3. "Your existence" is defined as "your existence as a cyborg", not your existence in a metaphysical sense.
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by Valorium » #625994

Plus, if we changed it so you *could* seek out deborging as an antagonist, that'd just mean Sec would stop borging antags because they can just immediately go get rebrained and back to murder. It'd just encourage the ol' Re-Education Center treatment.
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #626002

Deborging is a law 3 violation how is that even a question, never minding the "silicons arent permitted to try and escape their laws unprompted" thing
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by Donpedrito » #626006

Also: People have explained pretty well why intentionally getting deborged is a violation of law 3 in general.
However, in this specific situation, the act of getting deborged is also putting a known murderer (yourself) back on the station, which could be argued to be a violation of law 1 as well.
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by Ryusenshu » #626175

Vekter wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:21 am The justification for my ruling on this was that, in essence, putting yourself back in a human body violates law 3. "Your existence" is defined as "your existence as a cyborg", not your existence in a metaphysical sense.
I was told by an admin before, that a borged wiz with mindswap can still use mindswap, cause its not human harm and his existence is protected
Its kinda confusing
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by Pandarsenic » #626177

Honestly, magic is weird and probably just needs explicit snowflake exceptions to work because magic.
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by Vekter » #626189

Ryusenshu wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:21 pm
Vekter wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:21 am The justification for my ruling on this was that, in essence, putting yourself back in a human body violates law 3. "Your existence" is defined as "your existence as a cyborg", not your existence in a metaphysical sense.
I was told by an admin before, that a borged wiz with mindswap can still use mindswap, cause its not human harm and his existence is protected
Its kinda confusing
I think that's one of those "bending the rules for the sake of gameplay" things, since getting mindswapped into a borg would otherwise completely fuck your Wizard round.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by zxaber » #626211

SkeletalElite wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:32 am I have a question in a similar vein to this thread that I am curious about though:

If you are an antag and you get borged while your laws are asimov.
  • Can you go around murdering non humans until a human orders to stop, you are still the mind of an antag after all
    • when you are linked to a (non antag) AI and the AI has not given you orders to stop
    • when you are not linked to an AI
  • If you are purged does the same apply to humans, minus the ability for them to order you to stop
    • when you are linked to a (non antag) AI and the AI has not given you orders to stop
    • when you are not linked to an AI
Killing a non-human as an Asimov borg is a server rule 1 issue. As a borged antag, you keep the same brain, and thus mind, and thus antag status. Laws come first (and AI orders second), but server rule 4 still applies.

When borging a traitor, it's a good idea to tell them to be good before they run off. Telling the AI to keep an eye on them isn't a bad idea either.
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #626239

Ryusenshu wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:21 pm
Vekter wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:21 am The justification for my ruling on this was that, in essence, putting yourself back in a human body violates law 3. "Your existence" is defined as "your existence as a cyborg", not your existence in a metaphysical sense.
I was told by an admin before, that a borged wiz with mindswap can still use mindswap, cause its not human harm and his existence is protected
Its kinda confusing
Borged wizards with mindswap can use it because unlike being deconstructed, this does not kill the borg.

Edit: well actually they can do it because theyre wizards and it would be dumb not to, but it makes sense IC too
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kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by spookuni » #626312

As Dorsi has said, wizards are fully allowed to mindswap as a borg unless specifically ordered not to under both law 1 and 3 of asimov. This is because silicon laws are specific for physical phenomena, a human is harmed if they take damage or die, and a borg is destroyed if it dies or stops being a borg.
When a wizard mindswaps neither participant is harmed by the swap, at the end of a mindswap into a carbon, there is an unharmed carbon and borg, just as there was before the mindswap, that the souls of the two have swapped is irrelevant to whether not damage number go up or life status go down..
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Re: discussing antagonist deborgification

Post by tattle » #630192

As mentioned in this thread, seeking to be deconstructed as an Asimov borg is against the rules. We've had precedent where this is the case, and "your existence" is defined as "your existence as a cyborg." We do not feel the need to change the wording of Law 3.

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