Raise the standards of the LRP servers to that of the MRP servers

[The Wrench]

As it has been stated many times by the maintainer team “We code for MRP and accidentally code for HRP on occasion” and “We don’t balance features around bad faith players.” It does not make sense to me to continue having massive policy differences between each server when the codebase (Excluding configuration) are exactly the same for the entire community. Logically, We should strive to have as much parity between our servers and our community as possible. We have hugbox servers with metagangs like Manuel, and racial slur screaming hyper gamer NRPers on terry where murderbone and round removal are common. We should raise the rule standards on LRP actually have RP on them, and besides for the Manuel culture the ruleset is something strive worthy.

[The Wrench]

To clarify, I’m asking for the expanded “Manuel rules” to apply community wide to help move the community in a more favorable direction.

[Drag]

Before we raise the standard for any of the servers there needs to be a slight re write and clarification for the MRP ruleset itself. To me, personally, it's messy and sometimes the line on where to use MRP rules vs Official server rules starts to blur.

[Valorium]

In general, if maintainers or admins or whomever are going to push for changes based on "TG being an MRP codebase", then we should either update the rules and policy to reflect that or we should drop the argument entirely. You can't have it both ways.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Before we raise the standard for any of the servers there needs to be a slight re write and clarification for the MRP ruleset itself. To me, personally, it's messy and sometimes the line on where to use MRP rules vs Official server rules starts to blur.

By the very nature of Roleplay Rule 1 ("These are an extension of the base rules, not a replacement") you can technically argue that murderboning is completely legal. After all, sure RPR5 says you can't, but Rule 4 also says that Lone Antagonists can do whatever they want, so if it's just an extension and not a replacement, then I'm not breaking the rules!

Of course, any intelligent admin would immediately swat that down, probably via Rule 1, but possibly via 0, and probably escalate the punishment for Bad Faith, but. Y'know.

The fact that it's technically correct is probably a sign they could use a little work.

[Timberpoes]

Look at the front page. We have 3 normal servers and 2 roleplay servers.

Look at the rules. We have server rules which apply to non-roleplay servers, with a special set of rules for the roleplay servers.

Look at the hub listing:
> [/tg/Station Sybil [ENGLISH] [US-WEST] [100% LAG FREE] (Default): no respawn, AI allowed, 14/90 players]
no mention of roleplay at all.

The first step is figuring out just what our so-called LRP servers currently are, because if you go by the rules page and the server listing on the home page they not servers featuring any RP.

The rules state how players are allowed to have complete knowledge of all game mechanics including metainfo about antags and use it in-game with no RP justification.
Players are allowed to act on OOC information, gathering armour and weapons or preparing themselves to fight off threats based on the fact we run dynamic. You know, typical powergaming stuff.
Antags themselves are treated in terms of valid/not valid with no RP justification.
Heads of Staff and other important roles are expected to just not log out at or near roundstart, with no requirement to actually play their roles.

So... Are our non-roleplay servers actually even at the LRP standard?

It seems a dumb question to ask, but the only mention of Low/Medium RP in our rules is in the RP rules themselves.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Roleplay_Rules
> Please note that a ban on the low roleplay servers is a ban on the medium roleplay server, and vice versa.

The core server rules give players freedom to optimise the fun out of the shift and maximise their own personal enjoyment.

The RP rules try to take steps to reverse that through restricting player freedoms to try (whether it's successful or not, I reserve judgement on) and bring players into more meaingful and higher quality interactions with eachother.

To quote MSO from https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 6991444992

/tg/ has always been described as MRP to LRP. it slipped into LRP during ssethtide and the other expansions events as well as when we put the servers on the hub, because new players outpaced culture absorption. then manuel had to be made.

...

manuel but tators can still do what ever, but admins are free to make tator's lives harder if they go overboard, is basically how 2013 /tg/ was

Present day there's barely any hint of roleplay in the server rules. I sure would like to have experienced old tg from 2013, as it sounds like a pretty cool middleground between LRP and MRP compared to whatever the fuck we have now on the non-RP servers and whatever the fuck we're building on the RP servers.

[NecromancerAnne]

The Sybil I visited and played on in 2018-2019 was pretty much the best middleground between a roleplay and a high action traitor server I've come to experience from our ruleset. It was entirely player driven as to how the roleplay came about, and it seemed like a lot of people were kind of onboard. The way it managed this was mostly a smaller population with little bleedover.

In a small way I may have been a part of the turning of the tides a little, being that I left playing Bagil at the time, the highest pop server and where many people were playing very aggressive mass murder antags and powergaming out the arse, and brought that style with me. I definitely didn't endear myself much to the community after 7 rounds of traitor back to back after I arrived. It took a little bit for me to realize where I was going wrong.

I think Manuel helps with being a guided server so to speak, giving players the headsup on expectations, but in a way also stops dumbasses showing up with different standards ruining things too hard. At the same time, its quite a bit less organic in this than you would think, and I think a more organic style would require server cultural agreement and less so admin oversight, since I believe admin/policy involvement to maintain player roleplay standards to be the least organic method on the basis that anything it takes away some of the improv element and push it toward a more directed experience.

[Valorium]

The big issue at hand is that there seems to be a fundamental disconnect between the playerbase (as well as some administrative/coding staff) and the rest of the administrative/coding staff as to the RP status of TGstation as a unit. We have some members who claim that TG has always been a MRP codebase, and that Manuel is in fact a HRP server akin to Bay or Aurora, and some who claim otherwise. A unified vision would help clarify both bad-faith arguments in one way or another (using RP level as a way to justify the merging of certain PRs, for example) and to ameliorate the divide between these two groups.

[Sylphet]

It can't be done. The culture of LRP is very set at this point, and even if we could somehow get all of the admins in agreement to raise the standard, no amount of bwoinks or bans can erase that. It's fun in its own way, but we're not getting anything like 2019 Sybil (my beloved) back. Change has to come from the players, and even Manuel can't decide what it wants for itself, some people want no murderbone LRP, some people think it's HRP, some people want a zero antags bar rp nightmare where no one is ever threatened - how could we make such different communities agree ?

[UvvU]

This is very much so a culture problem rather then rule issue. It used to be that those who wanted to do heavy to med rp and those who wanted no to light rp mixed their cultures together and ended up with what happened in bagil/sybil in 2019. With the introduction of Manuel and the like, those communities have separated, and gone into more extreme ends of each. Rules won't fix the culture issue, and people are still having fun, so I don't see any good reason for any kind of action being taken.

[Mothblocks]

What rule proposals do you actually have in mind to fix what is ostensibly an issue of culture and familiarity?

[Somepan]

I mean if you want to alienate LRP players who care about antag freedom, this is the way to go.

[The Wrench]

What rule proposals do you actually have in mind to fix what is ostensibly an issue of culture and familiarity?

What I’m suggesting is that the roleplay rules are applied community wide instead of just on the hugbox containment server Manuel. (The anti powergaming rules and the stay in your lane rules.) If we really are an MRP community, we can’t have bad actors making all of TG culture this powergaming hellspawn

[The Wrench]

Valid culture needs to burn

[The Wrench]

I mean if you want to alienate LRP players who care about antag freedom, this is the way to go.

Antag freedom does not mean freedom to self antag

[EdgeLord_exe]

I support this notion with absolutely no reason whatsoever

[The Wrench]

I mean if you want to alienate LRP players who care about antag freedom, this is the way to go.

Antag freedom does not mean freedom to self antag

point.png

In my experience, people who complain about antag freedom are really dog whistling for their freedom to self antag or powergame as a non antagonist.

Hurrr durr if bad man have boom boom stick me need bigger boom boom stick to boom bad man before boom boom me.

[TheFinalPotato]

In general, if maintainers or admins or whomever are going to push for changes based on "TG being an MRP codebase", then we should either update the rules and policy to reflect that or we should drop the argument entirely. You can't have it both ways.

There is a hard division between codebase and server, the maintainers can't force the admin team to change rulings, just as they can't force us to make code changes.
We're coding for an "MRP" codebase, but that codebase can be used however the admins want. That freedom leads to a much more stable server I feel. Don't like the assertion that they should just do what we say (Implying they ever would, but whatever)

[Rohen_Tahir]

I mean if you want to alienate LRP players who care about antag freedom, this is the way to go.

Antag freedom does not mean freedom to self antag

point.png

In my experience, people who complain about antag freedom are really dog whistling for their freedom to self antag or powergame as a non antagonist.

Hurrr durr if bad man have boom boom stick me need bigger boom boom stick to boom bad man before boom boom me.

Do you know what that term means?

[The Wrench]

I mean if you want to alienate LRP players who care about antag freedom, this is the way to go.

Antag freedom does not mean freedom to self antag

point.png

In my experience, people who complain about antag freedom are really dog whistling for their freedom to self antag or powergame as a non antagonist.

Hurrr durr if bad man have boom boom stick me need bigger boom boom stick to boom bad man before boom boom me.

Do you know what that term means?

[Rohen_Tahir]

I mean if you want to alienate LRP players who care about antag freedom, this is the way to go.

Antag freedom does not mean freedom to self antag

point.png

In my experience, people who complain about antag freedom are really dog whistling for their freedom to self antag or powergame as a non antagonist.

Hurrr durr if bad man have boom boom stick me need bigger boom boom stick to boom bad man before boom boom me.

Do you know what that term means?

Ok so why would tiders use them, what's the point

[Bawhoppennn]

I have always been an ardent supporter of RP on tgstation, long before Manuel. I was excited when Manuel came out, and still enjoy it greatly (despite its own problems). However, that being said, I do miss the unity of the community we used to have. Even though there's always been server factions between Basil/Sybil, I do think Manuel and Sybil are far too polarized now.

In all honesty, I would fully support a middle-ground compromise ruleset to apply across all servers. Things that limit the excesses of valid-hunting/powergaming a bit, but still allow for plenty of player freedom, as is tgstation tradition. I'm not sure of the exact rule wordings at this time, but I think it would be the best in the health of this community to move forwards towards that path.


(Also FYI, coding staff should not be brought into this discussion. Division between the server and project is absolute. This is more a point about our community policy itself)

ALSO, shitposters please leave this thread. Thank you.

[Shadowflame909]

I like LRP though....

Personally MRP and HRP are too restrictive and feel much more like work. Leave the "Fear RP", "Well Thought Out Reactions" and "Rules Lawyering" at the door!

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Manuel current position is too restrictive for the whole server as is, but a reunification ruleset that drags the people who have to be whipped to not use leetspeak / talk about rounds or antags and the people who keep trying to get any form of violence on the station removed (I still cannot beleive that the definition of murderbone was retconned to *killing anyone not in your objectives without a good reason* out of the blue) together to form a fusion culture? That seems ok.

[Shadowflame909]

To add to that. The higher the standard of roleplay, the less "Fringe" situations are allowed.

Currently we have fun rules that say "You can blow up the station, as long as you kill the stronger evil antag in the process" and "Throwing the clown into the singulo can act as a final gambit in decreasing its gravitational pull"

With HRP and MRP, you're supposed to act way more sane and less like a raving LRP lunatic. So you'd be more encouraged to stay in your role and not..do these round remembering things.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

To add to that. The higher the standard of roleplay, the less "Fringe" situations are allowed.

Currently we have fun rules that say "You can blow up the station, as long as you kill the stronger evil antag in the process" and "Throwing the clown into the singulo can act as a final gambit in decreasing its gravitational pull"

With HRP and MRP, you're supposed to act way more sane and less like a raving LRP lunatic. So you'd be more encouraged to stay in your role and not..do these round remembering things.

Not exactly. We've had a few moments of maxcap suicide bombing the cult while they're trying to summon, and the person responsible has never gotten in trouble for it.

[Shadowflame909]

oh.

WELL...I think it'd be disincentivized on manual more, compared to LRP.

For example, I was playing LRP and the xeno-egg spawned. The crew did the whole "Oh impregnate a crewmember, don't worry it'll be fine" shtick that they always do. And then with no preperations and no set-up, it was released and killed us all.

On MRP, crewmembers are expected to not be braindead, and that antag probably wouldn't even be released unless a traitor did it.

[GamerAndYeahMick]

Nope. On the other servers we like it how it is, if you don't want to play them then just play manuel/campbell.

[GamerAndYeahMick]

In general, if maintainers or admins or whomever are going to push for changes based on "TG being an MRP codebase", then we should either update the rules and policy to reflect that or we should drop the argument entirely. You can't have it both ways.

Them designing the game to be less like fortnite doesn't mean we need a bunch of extra rules that don't achieve anything but make the game less chaotic ultimately

[Shadowflame909]

a part of me hopes headmins do team up and make it MRP everywhere. Then I'll have no incentive to stick around because MRP servers like paradise are boring. (You get bwoinked for getting into any "Escalation". It's just do your job for 1 hr till shuttle call. Only when you roll antag should you be attacking anybody

[confused rock]

The manuel rules still fucking suck, 90% of them are still “placeholder” rules from goonstation.

[The Wrench]

The manuel rules still fucking suck, 90% of them are still “placeholder” rules from goonstation.

Another reason to unify all of TG under the same rules, so they can be improved for the benefit of the entire community.

[Indie-ana Jones]

Manuel was the worst thing to happen. The playerbases were better together and less polarized, but Manuel fractured us and made the two groups distinct from each other to the point where recombining them is unrealistic.

[UvvU]

Manuel was the worst thing to happen. The playerbases were better together and less polarized, but Manuel fractured us and made the two groups distinct from each other to the point where recombining them is unrealistic.

I agree entirely with this. The day that manuel was introduced the culture shifted heavily, and in my opinion, not for the better. Not only did the pop become more spread out, but it also separated culturally. Rather then lrp being the minimum amount of rp required with heavier rp still very much encouraged, it made it so that the playerbase saw the rp level as the *set* amount of rp you should do. This heavily limits players. In a large amount of cases, a small amount of lrp mixed into a heavier rp can increase its quality drastically. This also made quite a few problems on the lrp side of things, as many people who tended to do quality rp left for the mrp servers. This cuased the culture of the lrp servers to shift into lrp being the maximum amount of rp, and anything more was shutdown by either no one reciprocating the rp, or by some spucmon with a toolbox. I feel as though a large amount of people who played before the introduction of Manuel would agree with this, or at the very least remember the experience before Manuel being a thing as better then the current experience.

[Jonathan Gupta]

the idea comes from a good place, but you just want to stop valid culture instead of actual RP.

All the time on forums all you say is related to how bad tiders are and why LRP sucks. LRP is more chaotic but it isn't just validating and self antag.

[Somepan]

I mean if you want to alienate LRP players who care about antag freedom, this is the way to go.

Antag freedom does not mean freedom to self antag

point.png

In my experience, people who complain about antag freedom are really dog whistling for their freedom to self antag or powergame as a non antagonist.

Hurrr durr if bad man have boom boom stick me need bigger boom boom stick to boom bad man before boom boom me.

No i just think that being able to do anything you want as antag including being able to kill rude cunts without having to respect escalation is cewl. It involves crew into the conflict with antags more than it does on MRP and HRP where crew is pretty much excluded from the conflict if not the immediate target.
Also, little question, how much time have you spent on MRP and LRP recently ?

[Somepan]

The manuel rules still fucking suck, 90% of them are still “placeholder” rules from goonstation.

Another reason to unify all of TG under the same rules, so they can be improved for the benefit of the entire community.

the thing is that the community currently isn't heterogeneous, people who play on server with the base rules might want to keep the base rules, i also doubt it's necessary to expand the RP rules to all servers if you want to see them improved, i'm pretty sure you could do that by opening another thread with that expressed goal. Which would be smart to do BEFORE expanding them to all server.

[The Wrench]

the idea comes from a good place, but you just want to stop valid culture instead of actual RP.

All the time on forums all you say is related to how bad tiders are and why LRP sucks. LRP is more chaotic but it isn't just validating and self antag.

I mean, it isn’t really relevant to the conversation at all. I mainly play Sybil and I don’t care for Manuelite hyper snowflake metagangs either, that still doesn’t change the facts of the matter

[The Wrench]

The manuel rules still fucking suck, 90% of them are still “placeholder” rules from goonstation.

Another reason to unify all of TG under the same rules, so they can be improved for the benefit of the entire community.

the thing is that the community currently isn't heterogeneous, people who play on server with the base rules might want to keep the base rules, i also doubt it's necessary to expand the RP rules to all servers if you want to see them improved, i'm pretty sure you could do that by opening another thread with that expressed goal. Which would be smart to do BEFORE expanding them to all server.

My goal here is to mend the culture of division in TG, and for the health of the game

[Farquaar]

Manuel was the worst thing to happen. The playerbases were better together and less polarized, but Manuel fractured us and made the two groups distinct from each other to the point where recombining them is unrealistic.

I don't think we should be afraid of recombining servers. We're still one community. If a couple metagangs are so obsessed with Manuel's less than ideal ruleset that they leave the community as a result of a merger, they probably weren't a good fit for /tg/station anyways.

[Somepan]

Manuel was the worst thing to happen. The playerbases were better together and less polarized, but Manuel fractured us and made the two groups distinct from each other to the point where recombining them is unrealistic.

I don't think we should be afraid of recombining servers. We're still one community. If a couple metagangs are so obsessed with Manuel's less than ideal ruleset that they leave the community as a result of a merger, they probably weren't a good fit for /tg/station anyways.

Leaving TG because of a massive change in rules like that (even if it was the only thing pushing to leave, which i doubt it would be) is still reasonable. Not everyone plays the game for the same reasons.

[Bytube]

I just want to see people get reprimanded for griefing on LRP honestly, if there's a way to do that without making Bagil/Sybil/Terry higher RP then I'm for it. The game isn't good if the only person having fun is the guy who's ruining it for everyone else.

[Jonathan Gupta]

I just want to see people get reprimanded for griefing on LRP honestly, if there's a way to do that without making Bagil/Sybil/Terry higher RP then I'm for it. The game isn't good if the only person having fun is the guy who's ruining it for everyone else.

this, is the better idea.

[Somepan]

I just want to see people get reprimanded for griefing on LRP honestly, if there's a way to do that without making Bagil/Sybil/Terry higher RP then I'm for it. The game isn't good if the only person having fun is the guy who's ruining it for everyone else.

Yup, i can clearly see a griefing issue, which isn't necessarly related to RP quality and such.

[confused rock]

I warned people at the time that making an mrp server would just kill rp on all our other servers and ruin the tg experience for people who like rp *and* action but no one would listen

[Flatulent]

I wholeheartedly agree and would support any decision by the admins, host, headmins or the code maintainers to drive the charred remains of the Honda Civic that is tgstation off a cliff.

[Farquaar]

Leaving TG because of a massive change in rules like that (even if it was the only thing pushing to leave, which i doubt it would be) is still reasonable. Not everyone plays the game for the same reasons.

Like what? I never spelled out what I wanted the new rules to look like.

[Bawhoppennn]

I warned people at the time that making an mrp server would just kill rp on all our other servers and ruin the tg experience for people who like rp *and* action but no one would listen

I had my own concerns too about splitting RP/LRP people up like that, as well as dividing the community somewhat, or Manuel's direction going too extreme. However when Manuel was created, the headmins forged ahead anyways despite concerns like these being voiced. You must be willing to take those chances though, for if you let caution always stop you, you will never be able to create anything positive and new. Even worse, if you aren't willing to change, you could stagnate and decay.
Because of this, I was fully onboard with the Manuel at the start, and tried to help shape its future. However now though, with enough time to observe its outcome and reflect on it, I believe the concerns have shown to be atleast somewhat true. This is why I believe having divided rulesets and a divided community is no longer in the best interest of the community and game as a whole.


I believe that shifting to the Manuel ruleset for all servers would be far too alienating, however I believe a compromise middleground ruleset would be successful. I have made another thread for discussion of this: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30789

Though not everyone would be happy, not everyone will ever be happy with every decision.

The extremes will always reject a more moderate position, however I believe that most players would be content and open with adopting a somewhat moderate ruleset.
Nothing too extreme of a divergence either way, no need to panic. Our differing rulesets are out sync in some key ways, but also are a lot more similar than in other ways than people realize. I absolutely think we would be successful and able to do so, while also healing the divide between our community.

[toemas]

i dont think ive ever finished a full round on manuel because its such an absolute snoozefest that i suicide or close the game before the round is finished, not sure why you would want this on every server

[The Wrench]

i dont think ive ever finished a full round on manuel because its such an absolute snoozefest that i suicide or close the game before the round is finished, not sure why you would want this on every server

To peanut post on my own thread, I’ve only been in one shift of Manuel, and I was snubbed by the metagangs at every chance when I tried to RP with them, so ideally if my proposal happens, Manuel would drop it’s hate for outsiders.