/tg/Station 13

PR link for more info:https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/64144
With the new addition on thieves more "validing" may arise due to objectives of the role.
For example Deranged's objective is to hoard a certain place with corpses. At what point players should be able to chase/arrest people who will be fireman carrying corpses?
-Is arresting/roundremoving someone having a heirloom in their bag allowed?
-Would finding more than 1 insulated gloves in someones bag be justifiable to declare them as hoarder?
-Can anywho carries more than 2 guns be arressted/roundremoved for being a Black Market Outfitter?
-Can thieves use lethal means to defend themselves?
To summarize:
-How should thieves defend themselves?
-How must security act according to it?

it's not really meant to be an antag to be so mechanically destroyed and played it's meant to add flavour so the sort of questions i'm seeing already make me sad at the state of affairs.

I think security should only act when they know someone stole something and arrest them for it, not execute them on the spot for being an antagonist and screeching "HES A THIEF KILL HIM!!1!!! I CAN SEE MECHANICAL TELLS111!!!!", and importantly I think they should obviously be allowed to defend themselves from an attack

I agree with burger. Security should not really have a licence to kill thieves freely; thieves can't randomly kill people either. They're not a full antagonist and can't act under rule 4, why should the crew use rule 4 as an excuse to kill them then? Thieves should of course be allowed self defence, maybe even allowed to kill a person or two if they can justify it (for example, killing an engi for their gloves). Round removal should still be a no, so should be hiding the bodies. If a thief has killed someone to steal their items, they should be made valid to security, or at the very least permabrigged.

-Is arresting/roundremoving someone having a heirloom in their bag allowed?

If you have reason to believe it's not theirs (the victim reported it, it doesn't match the job, they don't have heirloom quirk), you can arrest like you would most accounts of burglary, or at least investigate it.

-Would finding more than 1 insulated gloves in someones bag be justifiable to declare them as hoarder?

It might be a good reason to ask them why they need both, and to keep watch on them for later to see if they get more.

-Can anywho carries more than 2 guns be arressted/roundremoved for being a Black Market Outfitter?

Non-security who have MORE THAN TWO WEAPONS can definitely be arrested for it like anyone else.

-Can thieves use lethal means to defend themselves?

I would argue not more than anyone else, though they don't need to respect security, and can let escalation increase from there.

Security shouldn't be allowed to kill/round remove thieves just on being thieves alone. If that ends up being the case, then thief will just be all pain for zero reward, which sucks given how common it is.

I think LRP could use more less-black-and-white antagonists (when admins and players understand the limitations), and so would not like to see this design space clamped down further.

Heirloom seems like something where you can just ask "Is anyone missing some fingerless insuls/a shitty toolbox/a toy mouse" etc. rather than needing to go "hey you have the wrong one/don't have heirloom quirk in medical records"

Having a bunch of weapons is already often arrest-worthy so it doesn't seem like a special ruling is needed?

Big agree that sec shouldn't validsalad thieves or potential thieves at the drop of a hat

I think thieves are in a weird spot intentionally where they just grief the crew and thats it.

But then the crew escalates upon them and they can't escalate back.

Thieves should be able to kill in self defense, and then by the rules prioritize reviving those they kill.

Really quick and dirty way to see if you're playing alright: treat it as abductor. otherwise, agree with mothblocks on their take. Also, I'll make code changes to make sure more people know what is an heirloom

Rules of escalation should apply but thieves shouldn't have a license initiate with a kill. You can easily balaclava/gas mask and stamcrit with improvised weapons. You can stun-tie that same engi, disposals their headset and take their tools and gloves.

And at least validsalad thief is a much harder case to prove than the syndicate with a makarov in his chest cavity.

After speaking with Armhulenn, we've decided on the following policy for thieves:

Like abductors, obsessed, and brainwashed victims, thieves are not full antagonists and therefore rule 4 does not apply to them. Security should treat thieves as they would any other crew member who is maliciously stealing items. Likewise, thieves should not be using murder as a first resort to get items, and should escalate regularly.

Headmin Votes:
Dragomagol: Agree
RaveRadbury: Agree
NamelessFairy: Abstain