[MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

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CMDR_Gungnir
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[MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #626959

So, with the change to traitors that came with Progression Traitors, assassination objectives were changed for Calling Cards/beheadings. I generally consider this a good change, as it means that they're not obligated to completely round remove people, allowing them to get back into the game later on.

The problem that I'm noticing, however, is that there's still very little incentive for the tot to do so. In fact, there's even LESS incentive, because their ability to remain undercover lets them get more TC, especially with the Starfury or other things being a big reward at the end if they do well. They don't want that target being revived and revealing who killed them.

On LRP, with an average round time of 20-40 minutes, it's not too bad, but on MRP where even on high-pop it's not uncommon for rounds to last upwards of two hours or longer, being made to sit out for an hour and a half because you had the misfortune to find a body, or the bad luck to be one of the targets rolled, with zero interaction or chance of being found, kinda sucks, especially when it doesn't NEED to be that way, with the way that objectives are formulated.

So I propose introducing the blackout rules that a lot of other servers have in place for these types of things. Upon revival, you don't remember most of the details surrounding your death. You can remember being killed, but not who.

This way, antags are encouraged to allow people to get back into the round, since they don't have to worry about having their cover blown if their victims are found. This lets antags be more creative with how they handle their objectives, and lets people get back into the round.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Ryusenshu » #626961

This might make it even worse, since traitors will always remove witnesses when they can
And now even when revived they will get away with it, no matter how loud they were

I think the best way for this is if you only get one kill objective at the very end, which is a mechnical change
(or scrap the entire thing, but might be too late for that)
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #626964

Ryusenshu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:07 pm This might make it even worse, since traitors will always remove witnesses when they can
And now even when revived they will get away with it, no matter how loud they were

I think the best way for this is if you only get one kill objective at the very end, which is a mechnical change
(or scrap the entire thing, but might be too late for that)
Witnesses could still yell while the person is alive, encouraging the antag to still TRY to be sneaky. And we already have policy in place that you shouldn't intentionally get a body found to have the excuse to kill witnesses. Besides, the more people they have to kill, the more chances there are for someone to speak up, giving them an incentive to still try not to have witnesses. And if they DO and manage to kill 'em all...the people still get to get back in the round, which beats the alternative where they do all of that and then make sure nobody finds the bodies. At least, in my opinion, anyway.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Ryusenshu » #626969

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:20 pm
Witnesses could still yell while the person is alive, encouraging the antag to still TRY to be sneaky. And we already have policy in place that you shouldn't intentionally get a body found to have the excuse to kill witnesses. Besides, the more people they have to kill, the more chances there are for someone to speak up, giving them an incentive to still try not to have witnesses. And if they DO and manage to kill 'em all...the people still get to get back in the round, which beats the alternative where they do all of that and then make sure nobody finds the bodies. At least, in my opinion, anyway.
Not every antag is interested in being sneaky

Killed by nukies? Well you wont remember that, so why do you still have that gear?
Telling the revived guy that he was killed by a blob, he was fighting, will be weird
Asking the CMO what happened and they wont be able to say anything, about the 4 people that bashed his skull in, will be annoying

And those are the simple examples

Even then, with a policy like this, there is no guarantee they wont round remove you anyway just because its easier
Its already a problem that Prog Traitors are TOO sneaky, most of them only get noticed when they call in the end reward

tl;dr
more policing with little to no effect , imo
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #626970

Ryusenshu wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:55 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:20 pm
Witnesses could still yell while the person is alive, encouraging the antag to still TRY to be sneaky. And we already have policy in place that you shouldn't intentionally get a body found to have the excuse to kill witnesses. Besides, the more people they have to kill, the more chances there are for someone to speak up, giving them an incentive to still try not to have witnesses. And if they DO and manage to kill 'em all...the people still get to get back in the round, which beats the alternative where they do all of that and then make sure nobody finds the bodies. At least, in my opinion, anyway.
Not every antag is interested in being sneaky

Killed by nukies? Well you wont remember that, so why do you still have that gear?
Telling the revived guy that he was killed by a blob, he was fighting, will be weird
Asking the CMO what happened and they wont be able to say anything, about the 4 people that bashed his skull in, will be annoying

And those are the simple examples

Even then, with a policy like this, there is no guarantee they wont round remove you anyway just because its easier
Its already a problem that Prog Traitors are TOO sneaky, most of them only get noticed when they call in the end reward
You won't remember being killed by the Nukies, but if you'd geared up to fight them, you're still going to remember that there ARE nukies. Everyone else is also going to be very aware.

The blob point...I feel like that's a case of putting 2 and 2 together. You know there's a blob (unless you got killed when you discovered it, but then someone else would've seen it when getting you). "Huh, there's a blob. I went off to go fight it with everyone. Then I died. Blob probably killed me." You're not forgetting everything you did, you just don't remember how you died. You don't know if it was a blob zombie, or a the blob taking direct control to do it.

You're right about the CMO not being able to tell anyone about the four dudes that bashed his head in, but chances are someone else saw it, and if they didn't, how the fuck'd the CMO get back up? It's such a niche, rare case.

Why would they, though? What about it would be easier? It actually takes more effort to strip the body, stuff it in a crate along with all of its stuff than it is to just kill and leave it there. Even if they do..sure. But they would've done so otherwise, anyway.

I don't think it's a perfect solution, mind you. Your concerns are definitely valid and I do respect the disagreement. But I'd just like to see SOME kind of incentive for antags to not just mindlessly RR. As it stands, it's a clash between their objectives and the playstyle that feels awkward to me, personally.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Ryusenshu » #626973

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:01 pm
You're right about the CMO not being able to tell anyone about the four dudes that bashed his head in, but chances are someone else saw it, and if they didn't, how the fuck'd the CMO get back up? It's such a niche, rare case.
Niche, but saw it happen before
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:01 pm Why would they, though? What about it would be easier? It actually takes more effort to strip the body, stuff it in a crate along with all of its stuff than it is to just kill and leave it there. Even if they do..sure. But they would've done so otherwise, anyway.
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CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:01 pm I don't think it's a perfect solution, mind you. Your concerns are definitely valid and I do respect the disagreement. But I'd just like to see SOME kind of incentive for antags to not just mindlessly RR. As it stands, it's a clash between their objectives and the playstyle that feels awkward to me, personally.
Yeah i agree with that
But I dont think we can change peoples playstyle with this
Personally i would like to see less RR but im less than optimistic
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Shadowflame909 » #626974

It works on paradise. It'd definitely work here.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Ryusenshu » #626975

Now that i think about it this could actually be codified

Traitor placing the calling card (or collecting the reward for it) could sent a signal into the victims chat to forget the murderer

Might solve it for prog traitors without touching the other antags
Shadowflame909 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:16 pm It works on paradise. It'd definitely work here.
I dont know the culture there, so i cant make any statement on that
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Donpedrito » #626980

IMO traitors have enough gear for staying anonymous, like the mulligan, chameleon kit and agent ID, etc. that this isn't necessary; you can even just grab a grey jumpsuit from dorms and any kind of mask if you don't want to spend TC; ultimately if you want to stay undercover, you should be taking action to intentionally hide your identity.
Also, there's a lot of different ways someone can be revived (here I'm using "revived" very loosely as "becoming able to talk and therefore name your killer"), there's defibbing but there's also borging, ethereal crystals, podpeople, soul shards, changeling revival, and others, so I'm not sure death policy more complicated than "if you saw it while alive you remember it" is a good idea because there's so many different nuanced situations for both death and revival.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Mothblocks » #626984

Don is on the money here. Part of the point is to incentive slower, more deliberate traitor play--if a traitor eskews anonymization, then they should not be afforded it by the rules. Any changes you are proposing should definitely not be MRP only, as LRP having "20-40 minute average rounds" (not generally true, by the way) is not something we (designers) want to actually promote--the goal and what we, and ESPECIALLY biddle traitors, design around is 90 minutes.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #626985

Donpedrito wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:46 pm IMO traitors have enough gear for staying anonymous, like the mulligan, chameleon kit and agent ID, etc. that this isn't necessary; you can even just grab a grey jumpsuit from dorms and any kind of mask if you don't want to spend TC; ultimately if you want to stay undercover, you should be taking action to intentionally hide your identity.
Also, there's a lot of different ways someone can be revived (here I'm using "revived" very loosely as "becoming able to talk and therefore name your killer"), there's defibbing but there's also borging, ethereal crystals, podpeople, soul shards, changeling revival, and others, so I'm not sure death policy more complicated than "if you saw it while alive you remember it" is a good idea because there's so many different nuanced situations for both death and revival.
This is certainly true, and it's a point brought up when I was talking about the thread when someone linked it in deadchat, that it creates a lot of work for administration.

You didn't mention it, so I'm curious on your take on the matter, what's your opinion on the (at least to my perspective) clash between Objectives being dialed back to not RR and people still doing it anyway so noone snitches?
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #626988

Traitors round removing people who know too much isn't a bad thing. See rule 10.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by bastardblaster » #626989

Lethality and round removal isn't bad, just do something else for an hour
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #626990

Mothblocks wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:59 pm Don is on the money here. Part of the point is to incentive slower, more deliberate traitor play--if a traitor eskews anonymization, then they should not be afforded it by the rules. Any changes you are proposing should definitely not be MRP only, as LRP having "20-40 minute average rounds" (not generally true, by the way) is not something we (designers) want to actually promote--the goal and what we, and ESPECIALLY biddle traitors, design around is 90 minutes.
Then what's the intended situation with the change to the kill objectives? Am I correct in there being a clash between the intended design and the usual playstyle (IE, Calling Card/Decap instead of Keep Dead, and them often just keeping people dead and hidden anyway), or am I misunderstanding the intention? If the latter, then I'll concede and either let the thread close, or (if I even can) modify its discussion to more accurately represent this, and if the former, then what would you think's best?
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by NecromancerAnne » #627000

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:21 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:59 pm Don is on the money here. Part of the point is to incentive slower, more deliberate traitor play--if a traitor eskews anonymization, then they should not be afforded it by the rules. Any changes you are proposing should definitely not be MRP only, as LRP having "20-40 minute average rounds" (not generally true, by the way) is not something we (designers) want to actually promote--the goal and what we, and ESPECIALLY biddle traitors, design around is 90 minutes.
Then what's the intended situation with the change to the kill objectives? Am I correct in there being a clash between the intended design and the usual playstyle (IE, Calling Card/Decap instead of Keep Dead, and them often just keeping people dead and hidden anyway), or am I misunderstanding the intention? If the latter, then I'll concede and either let the thread close, or (if I even can) modify its discussion to more accurately represent this, and if the former, then what would you think's best?
As I understand, deliberately keeping someone dead is an inappropriate thing to do on the roleplay rules with the new prog traitor, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to not bothering with hiding your identity. Traitors can get both the cham kit, agent card and infil suit for the purpose of making a disguise. Use it. That's the intent. You don't get a free kill pass just because you're too lazy to consider keeping your identity hidden.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Screemonster » #627006

NecromancerAnne wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:14 pm As I understand, deliberately keeping someone dead is an inappropriate thing to do on the roleplay rules with the new prog traitor, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to not bothering with hiding your identity. Traitors can get both the cham kit, agent card and infil suit for the purpose of making a disguise. Use it. That's the intent. You don't get a free kill pass just because you're too lazy to consider keeping your identity hidden.
I can see this getting very messy when a disguised tator kills someone, that someone watches them as a ghost and finds out their identity, gets revived and calls them out, because if the tator ditched the disguise it's going to be a nightmare to look back in the logs and establish "was this dude disguised when he made the kill and how good was the disguise"
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #627017

NecromancerAnne wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:14 pm
As I understand, deliberately keeping someone dead is an inappropriate thing to do on the roleplay rules with the new prog traitor, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to not bothering with hiding your identity. Traitors can get both the cham kit, agent card and infil suit for the purpose of making a disguise. Use it. That's the intent. You don't get a free kill pass just because you're too lazy to consider keeping your identity hidden.
Where in the roleplay rules does it say you can't keep someone dead?
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #627019

NecromancerAnne wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:14 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:21 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:59 pm Don is on the money here. Part of the point is to incentive slower, more deliberate traitor play--if a traitor eskews anonymization, then they should not be afforded it by the rules. Any changes you are proposing should definitely not be MRP only, as LRP having "20-40 minute average rounds" (not generally true, by the way) is not something we (designers) want to actually promote--the goal and what we, and ESPECIALLY biddle traitors, design around is 90 minutes.
Then what's the intended situation with the change to the kill objectives? Am I correct in there being a clash between the intended design and the usual playstyle (IE, Calling Card/Decap instead of Keep Dead, and them often just keeping people dead and hidden anyway), or am I misunderstanding the intention? If the latter, then I'll concede and either let the thread close, or (if I even can) modify its discussion to more accurately represent this, and if the former, then what would you think's best?
As I understand, deliberately keeping someone dead is an inappropriate thing to do on the roleplay rules with the new prog traitor, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to not bothering with hiding your identity. Traitors can get both the cham kit, agent card and infil suit for the purpose of making a disguise. Use it. That's the intent. You don't get a free kill pass just because you're too lazy to consider keeping your identity hidden.
Then it should be listed somewhere because it's still happening. This isn't an "uwu i had my antag round ruined because someone i killed reported me" thing (I'm actually pretty sure I still have 90% of my antags turned off!), this is a "hey this feels like a really weird clash between expectations and reality, what can we do to resolve it?" thing.
Screemonster wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:14 pm
NecromancerAnne wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:14 pm As I understand, deliberately keeping someone dead is an inappropriate thing to do on the roleplay rules with the new prog traitor, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to not bothering with hiding your identity. Traitors can get both the cham kit, agent card and infil suit for the purpose of making a disguise. Use it. That's the intent. You don't get a free kill pass just because you're too lazy to consider keeping your identity hidden.
I can see this getting very messy when a disguised tator kills someone, that someone watches them as a ghost and finds out their identity, gets revived and calls them out, because if the tator ditched the disguise it's going to be a nightmare to look back in the logs and establish "was this dude disguised when he made the kill and how good was the disguise"
That'd already be the case, no matter what, though.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by TheFinalPotato » #627021

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:31 pm On LRP, with an average round time of 20-40 minutes, it's not too bad, but on MRP where even on high-pop it's not uncommon for rounds to last upwards of two hours or longer, being made to sit out for an hour and a half because you had the misfortune to find a body
I think it's worth noting that 90 minutes is our target for round length. lrp is hitting that pretty well, mrp's just a bit above
Rounds that go on for hours more are going to feel a bit worse just by default, because it's not how the game's being designed
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by NecromancerAnne » #627022

Screemonster wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:14 pm I can see this getting very messy when a disguised tator kills someone, that someone watches them as a ghost and finds out their identity, gets revived and calls them out, because if the tator ditched the disguise it's going to be a nightmare to look back in the logs and establish "was this dude disguised when he made the kill and how good was the disguise"
That kind of metagaming is extremely easy to beat with a few simple questions. Namely, getting them to describe the disguise against what the tot would describe, get them to explain how they knew the true identity of the person behind the disguise, and then assessing if they had any reasonable possibility of having determined this while alive. Also, href logs exist for examining mobs, so you can check that too. If the person claimed they were wearing a named PDA on their belt but the only time they saw this item was while they were dead because they never examined the person while alive, then you can absolutely determine that it was metagaming.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by NecromancerAnne » #627024

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:49 pm
NecromancerAnne wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:14 pm
As I understand, deliberately keeping someone dead is an inappropriate thing to do on the roleplay rules with the new prog traitor, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to not bothering with hiding your identity. Traitors can get both the cham kit, agent card and infil suit for the purpose of making a disguise. Use it. That's the intent. You don't get a free kill pass just because you're too lazy to consider keeping your identity hidden.
Where in the roleplay rules does it say you can't keep someone dead?
once a target is dead and the objective is complete, they're not your target anymore. Going further than this is murderboning, because you're trying to prevent the revival of someone who isn't a target. You don't have to go to any effort to revive, or make it obvious where their body is, just don't go to any effort to ensure they can't be like destroying the body or hiding the head/brain. I'm gonna say this was something specifically Melbert was saying the other day, so I'll take his word for it.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #627026

NecromancerAnne wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:29 pm
Itseasytosee2me wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:49 pm
NecromancerAnne wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:14 pm
As I understand, deliberately keeping someone dead is an inappropriate thing to do on the roleplay rules with the new prog traitor, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to not bothering with hiding your identity. Traitors can get both the cham kit, agent card and infil suit for the purpose of making a disguise. Use it. That's the intent. You don't get a free kill pass just because you're too lazy to consider keeping your identity hidden.
Where in the roleplay rules does it say you can't keep someone dead?
once a target is dead and the objective is complete, they're not your target anymore. Going further than this is murderboning, because you're trying to prevent the revival of someone who isn't a target. You don't have to go to any effort to revive, or make it obvious where their body is, just don't go to any effort to ensure they can't be like destroying the body or hiding the head/brain. I'm gonna say this was something specifically Melbert was saying the other day, so I'll take his word for it.
You are allowed to kill someone as an antagonist that is not your target given in character justification. The possibility of them being revived and exposing you as a syndicate should be sufficient in character justification.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #627027

TheFinalPotato wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:22 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:31 pm On LRP, with an average round time of 20-40 minutes, it's not too bad, but on MRP where even on high-pop it's not uncommon for rounds to last upwards of two hours or longer, being made to sit out for an hour and a half because you had the misfortune to find a body
I think it's worth noting that 90 minutes is our target for round length. lrp is hitting that pretty well, mrp's just a bit above
Rounds that go on for hours more are going to feel a bit worse just by default, because it's not how the game's being designed
That's fair! I admittedly don't play on the LRP servers very often, I've been to Terry to visit a friend like, twice? And both rounds didn't last longer than 40 minutes, so I just kinda assumed it was the norm.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Farquaar » #627036

NecromancerAnne wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:29 pmonce a target is dead and the objective is complete, they're not your target anymore. Going further than this is murderboning, because you're trying to prevent the revival of someone who isn't a target. You don't have to go to any effort to revive, or make it obvious where their body is, just don't go to any effort to ensure they can't be like destroying the body or hiding the head/brain. I'm gonna say this was something specifically Melbert was saying the other day, so I'll take his word for it.
This isn't how the MRP rules work. You're allowed to murder anyone with proper justification, be they an objective, a witness, or an obstacle. Whether one round removes them or not is entirely up to the antag.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #627037

Farquaar is right. why would it be murderboning to cover your own ass
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by NecromancerAnne » #627060

That's not what I said. You absolutely could kill them and keep them dead. What I said was going a step too far was body destruction and permanent round removal, like brain removal and frying. At that point you start running into the exact same problems that got heretics yeeted out of MRP.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #627082

NecromancerAnne wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:15 am That's not what I said. You absolutely could kill them and keep them dead. What I said was going a step too far was body destruction and permanent round removal, like brain removal and frying. At that point you start running into the exact same problems that got heretics yeeted out of MRP.
Body destruction / Brain theft is an extremely common way of keeping someone dead you dont want revived. In fact, virtually the default given how easy it is compared to old time) way of preventing someone from being revived (post c4gib that is). The only other options are a) Borging and hoping the borg knows its laws and doesnt snitch on your human butt, b) Hiding it in a locker and hoping no random jerk crawling maint for bounty items is opening all the boxes looking for donk pockets or c) Spacing (Pretty unreliable).
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Sylphet
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Sylphet » #627104

We had this thread last year, a solution was proposed, and no one coded it. viewtopic.php?f=33&t=27391

My position has changed since then, I think blackout rules are a shit idea. I adminned a server that had blackout rules and it didn't work at all. Players are absolutely incapable of ignoring metaknowledge, and it creates a nightmare to enforce. Sticky's post in that thread is (as always) correct and the linked idea viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27401 is by far the best way to do it. Which is a code change, not a policy change, unfortunately. The best fix for this is to make it so that players cannot gain the metaknowledge causing this problem to begin with.
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https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=27175
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CMDR_Gungnir
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #627107

Sylphet wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:06 pm We had this thread last year, a solution was proposed, and no one coded it. viewtopic.php?f=33&t=27391

My position has changed since then, I think blackout rules are a shit idea. I adminned a server that had blackout rules and it didn't work at all. Players are absolutely incapable of ignoring metaknowledge, and it creates a nightmare to enforce. Sticky's post in that thread is (as always) correct and the linked idea viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27401 is by far the best way to do it. Which is a code change, not a policy change, unfortunately. The best fix for this is to make it so that players cannot gain the metaknowledge causing this problem to begin with.
It wouldn't help with the problem of the traitor going around killing people and then hiding the bodies because "oops he saw me", which is what inspired this, because hey if it keeps people in the round more, I'm generally all for it. That leads to more fun for all players. But! I do actually think that idea is extremely cool, and would absolutely help fix some areas that could definitely use it.

You do raise a good point about blackout rules being hard to enforce. On a smaller server, maybe, but add in TG's size and it might be a little bit too hard, but I wasn't sure what else to suggest.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Sylphet » #627112

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:59 pm It wouldn't help with the problem of the traitor going around killing people and then hiding the bodies because "oops he saw me", which is what inspired this, because hey if it keeps people in the round more, I'm generally all for it. That leads to more fun for all players. But! I do actually think that idea is extremely cool, and would absolutely help fix some areas that could definitely use it.

You do raise a good point about blackout rules being hard to enforce. On a smaller server, maybe, but add in TG's size and it might be a little bit too hard, but I wasn't sure what else to suggest.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I felt about it in my thread too. It doesn't fix the issue directly, but it helps by reducing the amount of information that you have in where and how you died, which means when you're revived you're less able to explain exactly what happened so sec can go immediately valid the guy, which means destroying your body forever isn't so much of a life or death thing for antags. Would make a nice de-escalation from how things are.
Tell me how much you think that I should be thrown out of the nearest airlock !
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=27175
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #627136

Sylphet wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:11 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:59 pm It wouldn't help with the problem of the traitor going around killing people and then hiding the bodies because "oops he saw me", which is what inspired this, because hey if it keeps people in the round more, I'm generally all for it. That leads to more fun for all players. But! I do actually think that idea is extremely cool, and would absolutely help fix some areas that could definitely use it.

You do raise a good point about blackout rules being hard to enforce. On a smaller server, maybe, but add in TG's size and it might be a little bit too hard, but I wasn't sure what else to suggest.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I felt about it in my thread too. It doesn't fix the issue directly, but it helps by reducing the amount of information that you have in where and how you died, which means when you're revived you're less able to explain exactly what happened so sec can go immediately valid the guy, which means destroying your body forever isn't so much of a life or death thing for antags. Would make a nice de-escalation from how things are.
At the very least, it'd be a good start. How come it was never worked on before? Did people dislike it, or did just noone pick it up?

I do also think that other thread about reinstating the old Rule 3 about how it's RP first yada yada could help with the rest of the problem, too. It'd make Sec less likely to just roundremove the valids when they catch them, which'll make antags less likely to just unga round remove people, because they know that even if they do get caught, their round isn't just over.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by confused rock » #627166

I've played with true blindness on HRP. It fucking sucks. It's really frustrating to have no idea whether you should ghost or not when you're dying, and while that wouldn't always be as big a problem here, you're probably still gonna know who nabbed you from when you were awake.
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Sylphet
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Sylphet » #627185

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:06 pm At the very least, it'd be a good start. How come it was never worked on before? Did people dislike it, or did just noone pick it up?

I do also think that other thread about reinstating the old Rule 3 about how it's RP first yada yada could help with the rest of the problem, too. It'd make Sec less likely to just roundremove the valids when they catch them, which'll make antags less likely to just unga round remove people, because they know that even if they do get caught, their round isn't just over.
Yep, no one picked it up.
Tell me how much you think that I should be thrown out of the nearest airlock !
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=27175
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Misdoubtful
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by Misdoubtful » #627248

I actually tried implementing this on a couple of servers, it never worked out the way I would have hoped. I came to the hard conclusion that it will almost always boil down to two things in the majority of cases:

1. He said she said nonsense where there is plenty of unable to verify information. Plenty can be seen and inferred that isn't logged
2. People jumping to it the moment they run into anything that could relate to it as an antag, prompting constant investigation

It didn't matter if was on death, on cloning, relating to borging, etc... The benefits didn't seem to outweigh the taxing effort attached to it.

Its very culture dependent, to a fault.
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Re: [MRP] Introduce Death Blackout Rules

Post by RaveRadbury » #632572

We'd prefer death black out as a choice that players can consider to make the round more interesting rather than something that should be enforced

Headmin Votes:
RaveRadbury: Agree
NamelessFairy: Agree
Dragomagol: Agree
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