Bring back the old rule 3

[MrStonedOne]

Bottom post of the previous page:

This used to be rule 3 on all servers back when I first took over as webhost (but not game host)

3. This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Being an asshole, who ruins other player's roleplay experience, just to win, is considered a 'play-to-win' style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. Be considerate of other players' experience.

This didn't make it thru a rewrite.

Anti-play2win enforcement used to hold back the tide that is this fucking game when unleashed.

Bring it back.

The way this used to be enforced on antags to counter this being enforced on security, was that admins had free roam to do some tasteful button presses to make the antag's round more challenging. If you're gonna play to win as tator, so will the gods. Then hijack came out and that become frowned upon because it was already generally frowned upon to make it harder for antags to honestly achieve their objectives.

(I could have just asked the headmins about doing this, but i'm too high to be disrupting their official discord channel with highdeas, so you get to hear an old man yelling at a cloud a policy thread instead)

edit:

(For the record, pandarsenic in this thread has a better grasp on what this rule originally meant then even I did. They were one of the admin trainers at the time I was a candidate.)

edit2:

Let me break this rule down for you.

This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. - preamble establishing intent and reasoning

Being an asshole, who ruins other player’s roleplay experience, - piece 1

just to win, - piece 2

is considered a ‘play-to-win’ style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. - tie everything together

Be considerate of other players’ experience. - finish off strong with a call to action.


It's important to note that piece 2 is a condition on piece 1.

[Stickymayhem]

We decide what the future of the culture is and if you're not in that future that's not our problem.

Yeah I'll stop you right there pal. I get that you're an admin so you enjoy looking down from your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower but players arn't just cattle you can brand with "mrp" and expect us to be happy with it.

I dont care if you're happy appealling to your demographic has negative consequences for the server

Nothing stays the same and if it no longer appeals to you find another server or video game. This isn't oxygen, it's a video game

If we're catastrophically incorrect in some unforeseeable way it'll change and you'll crawl back whether we want you to or not

There are ton of servers that offer what this change offers. You wanna talk about whats bad for the server? What happens if this causes the peasants you turn your nose to go off and find/make that server your betting they wont? How many of those "catastrophically incorrect" decisions are you gonna make before one of them causes players not to come back? Why throw away what makes TG station different from the others in hopes of chasing your own demographics?

I reckon people who want to play a fun game in a friendly community that tries to preserve fun for more people and doesn't scream the n-word every five minutes might be more common than autistic manchildren who screech that not being allowed to say 'gas the jews' is oppression and that the only value in this game is maximizing the pain other people feel at your hand.

[Boot]

We decide what the future of the culture is and if you're not in that future that's not our problem.

Yeah I'll stop you right there pal. I get that you're an admin so you enjoy looking down from your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower but players arn't just cattle you can brand with "mrp" and expect us to be happy with it.

I dont care if you're happy appealling to your demographic has negative consequences for the server

Nothing stays the same and if it no longer appeals to you find another server or video game. This isn't oxygen, it's a video game

If we're catastrophically incorrect in some unforeseeable way it'll change and you'll crawl back whether we want you to or not

There are ton of servers that offer what this change offers. You wanna talk about whats bad for the server? What happens if this causes the peasants you turn your nose to go off and find/make that server your betting they wont? How many of those "catastrophically incorrect" decisions are you gonna make before one of them causes players not to come back? Why throw away what makes TG station different from the others in hopes of chasing your own demographics?

I reckon people who want to play a fun game in a friendly community that tries to preserve fun for more people and doesn't scream the n-word every five minutes might be more common than autistic manchildren who screech that not being allowed to say 'gas the jews' is oppression and that the only value in this game is maximizing the pain other people feel at your hand.

Please keep this on topic friend. I know you love to think everyone against you is working for the evil people who say ligger in your head but we are talking about ingame actions not really the chat.

[Rohen_Tahir]

We decide what the future of the culture is and if you're not in that future that's not our problem.

Yeah I'll stop you right there pal. I get that you're an admin so you enjoy looking down from your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower but players arn't just cattle you can brand with "mrp" and expect us to be happy with it.

I dont care if you're happy appealling to your demographic has negative consequences for the server

Nothing stays the same and if it no longer appeals to you find another server or video game. This isn't oxygen, it's a video game

If we're catastrophically incorrect in some unforeseeable way it'll change and you'll crawl back whether we want you to or not

There are ton of servers that offer what this change offers. You wanna talk about whats bad for the server? What happens if this causes the peasants you turn your nose to go off and find/make that server your betting they wont? How many of those "catastrophically incorrect" decisions are you gonna make before one of them causes players not to come back? Why throw away what makes TG station different from the others in hopes of chasing your own demographics?

I reckon people who want to play a fun game in a friendly community that tries to preserve fun for more people and doesn't scream the n-word every five minutes might be more common than autistic manchildren who screech that not being allowed to say 'gas the jews' is oppression and that the only value in this game is maximizing the pain other people feel at your hand.

Please keep this on topic friend. I know you love to think everyone against you is working for the evil people who say ligger in your head but we are talking about ingame actions not really the chat.

Have you considered not feeding him?

[sinfulbliss]

-snip-

I agree with pretty much everything you've said, but we do lose something by playing the game this way. People who play LRP, I think I can say generally, enjoy the fact they are allowed to bring in metaknowledge about antags and threats into each round. The fact you can play 100 cult rounds and eventually get very good at learning what to do against a cult, and employ that information to most efficiently respond and prepare for them when they're outted in a round, is something a lot of people enjoy about the game. You have a way of getting better at the game, round-to-round. As security, say, you will do better, i.e., "win" more, against antagonists and threats, the more experience you have against them. You don't have to pretend to not know what something is, so the antag can have more time to prepare. You don't have to RP as a stepping-stone that the antag is meant to overcome. You don't have to hold back as the HoS in a duel with an antag because "you're not supposed to be unstoppable." You play your best, and the antag plays his best, and may the best man win. Regardless, you both get better in the process. And people love this about LRP.

If the cult gets outted in 30 seconds and loses terribly, that is simply a learning experience for the culties. If the HoS gets slipped, cuffed, and murdered in the halls, that is simply a learning process for the HoS. Everything is taken as a learning experience. Maybe next time the cult members will be more secretive. Maybe next time the HoS will pay more attention to slips. There are no rules in place to makeup for skill issues. If you start limiting what people can do in response to antagonists, you consequently make it easier to be an antagonist, and the focus on mechanical understanding and execution, the focus on getting better at the game as a competitive game, goes down in trade for RP experiences and gimmicks. Maybe that's a good thing, who knows. But I think it's important we understand what we lose if this rule is implemented. It's not all benefit with no downside.

Oranges, I believe it was, made this point better, but for some reason deleted their post so that's the best I can do.
Tl;dr: many people play LRP for its focus on competitive combat and mechanics - this rule will, by force, lower the focus on combat and mechanics in favor for more flexible/relaxed RP scenarios for antags. This is likely not something a majority of LRP players want, as they view the game more competitively than MRP players do.

The overall pace of a round will slow down a lot from this change as well, I think. Maybe that's what the coderbase wants, since rounds are "ideally" 1.5 hours. But the coderbase should understand 66% of their playerbase - the players who play Sybil and Terry - do not want slower, calmer rounds, and the entire reason they play these servers is to get away from what they find boring and slow experiences on the more RP-oriented servers.

[Armhulen]

honestly people looking at every other lrp server and calling it aids mixed with hating the idea of rule 3 just makes me think you're having fun picking on people putting more effort into the game than you and as such it isn't fun in an environment where nobody is trying very hard. these people know that if they had an entire community filled with themselves, nobody would be having fun. rule 3 seems like a great re-addition

[ATHATH]

I reckon people who want to play a fun game in a friendly community that tries to preserve fun for more people and doesn't scream the n-word every five minutes might be more common than autistic manchildren who screech that not being allowed to say 'gas the jews' is oppression and that the only value in this game is maximizing the pain other people feel at your hand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

If people are screaming the n-word every 5 minutes and demanding to be able to say "gas the jews", why aren't you banning them for that instead of for liking LRP?

[Armhulen]

because sticky is speaking in fluent hyperbole that doesn't actually reflect the game at all, besides the idea of burned out people playing almost entirely to sap fun from others around them. that part is real

[Shadowflame909]

-snip-

The overall pace of a round will slow down a lot from this change as well, I think. Maybe that's what the coderbase wants, since rounds are "ideally" 1.5 hours. But the coderbase should understand 66% of their playerbase - the players who play Sybil and Terry - do not want slower, calmer rounds, and the entire reason they play these servers is to get away from what they find boring and slow experiences on the more RP-oriented servers.

No one likes to be bored from a long round and alt-tab for sure.

That's why I hope this rule will have admins pressing buttons more, if they do not have to fear "ruining greentexts"

[Armhulen]

i wouldn't worry about round times in any way, dynamic can easily be tweaked to match up with the planned round end times. if players go slower and end the round later, we can up the amount of antags and vice versa if it goes faster

[ATHATH]

-snip-

okay yeah this basically summarizes what I've been saying in a way that flows way better, good job sinful

honestly people looking at every other lrp server and calling it aids mixed with hating the idea of rule 3 just makes me think you're having fun picking on people putting more effort into the game than you and as such it isn't fun in an environment where nobody is trying very hard.

We're putting in the same amount of effort, we're just focusing it in different areas. To be quite frank, implying that we're lazy man babies who are throwing a fit because we can't handle your RP being sooooo much better than ours comes off as insulting and a bit egotistical.

these people know that if they had an entire community filled with themselves, nobody would be having fun. rule 3 seems like a great re-addition

Isn't that... basically the state of our LRP servers? And aren't they doing fine? Maybe I'm just out of touch, I've been banned for a while now.

[Pandarsenic]

I'd like to add that, for all of the time I was around as a player and admin before my long, long break, there was no enforced lack of meta knowledge. Indeed, there was often a great deal of cheeky acknowledgement of the absurdity of it - the cyclic absurdity, the silliness when the Space Ninja that spawned in was clearly a particular person but with a changed name, etc. That part is not inherent to the rules provided.

You didn't have to act like every shift before, ever, had been totally safe and fine - only to act like you had an expectation that shifts were more likely than not to be totally safe and fine, and thus you didn't need to be armed to the teeth for any eventuality until things started going ass-up.

Similarly, there was an expectation but not a requirement that you do your job, at least enough so you didn't leave everyone else hanging. As far as other jobs, you were free to have as broad of a skillset for your spaceman as you could learn yourself, as a player.

Tl;dr: many people play LRP for its focus on competitive combat and mechanics - this rule will, by force, lower the focus on combat and mechanics in favor for more flexible/relaxed RP scenarios for antags. This is likely not something a majority of LRP players want, as they view the game more competitively than MRP players do.

The overall pace of a round will slow down a lot from this change as well, I think. Maybe that's what the coderbase wants, since rounds are "ideally" 1.5 hours. But the coderbase should understand 66% of their playerbase - the players who play Sybil and Terry - do not want slower, calmer rounds, and the entire reason they play these servers is to get away from what they find boring and slow experiences on the more RP-oriented servers.

You shouldn't conflate lack of RP with a fast pace, nor the chaos of a round with its duration.

In my experience, rounds often last longer when neither loyal crew nor antags can pull off a decisive victory (or when crew wins and crew is competent enough not to break shit and command staff doesn't get bored immediately). Similarly, the most chaotic rounds are those where antags are not immediately and decisively defeated, which at least suggests to me that reintroducing these RP standards at least shouldn't make rounds significantly calmer.

If this did somehow lead to antags getting rekt early, then as mentioned, the rate of latejoin/sleeper antags can be upped anyway, easy.

Peaceful antags are neither normal nor expected under these rules, but you ARE expected to somewhat humor them and treat them like real people until they do something ENEMYOFTHECORPORATION.

[ATHATH]

I get where you’re coming from, but personally I trust admins to execute this much better than they did rule 11, which imo ended up in a fine enough place, even if the path there wasn’t smooth. I think there will be less of a range in opinions for this rule on the team than 11, which means we’re starting off closer to the same page. No doubt it will be used very conservatively at first and with time the acceptable use-case will broaden, however the path to precedent (hehe) will be open to both players and admins the whole way, with MSO stepping in as he likely sees fit. Rollout won’t be perfect but I don’t think it will be a disaster.

MSO has intentionally left this rule incredibly vague and people (including MSO and admins) are already interpreting it to mean wildly different things.

[The Wrench]

Peaceful antags are neither normal nor expected under these rules, but you ARE expected to somewhat humor them and treat them like real people until they do something ENEMYOFTHECORPORATION.

Based. Traitor gimmicks may actually be viable now. The death of valid culture is coming, and It feels GREAT.

[wesoda25]

@athath
Yes, in the start things will be confusing. I hope (and assume) admins will have the wisdom to not just enforce their own personal interpretation of the rule, but instead will touch base with others before using it. Don’t forget, every player can appeal and make threads, so everyone will be able to participate in how this rule is defined via the the accumulation of policy and precedent. Headmins do have the final say with such things, but I trust them all to make the right decisions.

In time enough nuance will develop that we’ll be able to debate specifics. For now I think that’s for the most part fruitless and we should instead be focusing on the more basic heart of the proposal: do we want a community that prioritizes roleplay and being considerate or one which prioritizes mechanical and individual freedom?

[Flatulent]

Cry about it pussy tits. for guys who say you love the challenge and intensity of ss13 you seem to fucking shit yourselves and demand people stop bullying you when your opponents have an opportunity to fight back.

Stupid fucking retard. Guys argument is UHHH I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO LOOK FOR A NEW SERVER SO DONT DO ANYTHING I DONT LIKE. Fucking moron.

Guy: maybe we should put our turds into a toilet so that people dont get shit thrown at them all day.

Shit throwing chimp who goes out of his way to look for turds so he can throw shit at everyone: BUT THEN HOW WILL I THROW SHIT AT PEOPLE?

Guy: you could throw shit somewhere else but we dont want it here

SHITCHIMP: WHERE THO?! IM BEING OPPRESSED THIS IS JUST LIKE WHEN THEY EXPELLED THE JEWS IM LITERALLY BEING HOLOCAUSTED AAAH

Guy: whatever shitchimp

Shitchimp: AHHHH AD HOMINEM AD HOMINEM I WINNNNN

Piss up a flagpole and see if you get wet you parasite.

that ass of yours must be very deep if you can keep pulling dumb, shitty arguements out of it repeatedly for over 5 years

We decide what the future of the culture is and if you're not in that future that's not our problem.

who the fuck are “we”? You don’t actually get to decide anything, just like me, Sticky. Best you can hope for is getting MSO to listen to what you have to say. You take part in the adminbus discussions, but ultimately none of the admins have actual power on the establishment of new rules or codebase. All you have control over is implementation of said rules. Policemen don’t get to decide the law, the fat suits in the parliament (or a king-host in case of tg) do.

You have never, for a moment, appeared to enjoy being part of this community.

idk where you got that from. i never said this, so perhaps this could be voices in your head. i am merely disgruntled and fed up with the direction the server, codebase and administration were having, and that lead me to quit. I refuse to be a part of this any longer. On this forums, I am here at my own leisure.
the note appeal was merely a good enough reason to cause a fuss. it did the job of attracting attention of old terry players who I wanted to talk with as I didn’t know how to reach them at the time.

Related: Didn't you dramatically storm out of /tg/station never return a couple months ago? Before this change was even suggested you were unhappy with the status quo enough to make a big deal out of leaving. But you keep coming back. Is the game fun or not? Is the status quo terrible or not?

The vibe of this post applies to a lot of people complaining about this potential change.

I left because I felt that i am no longer welcome here anymore, and that’s okay. tg is really nothing special, what made it good was relative lenience of it’s administration and people I interacted with during 2018-2021. Seeing that both of those are gone, there really wasn’t anything keeping me here. Anything else is an afterthought.

The game is fun. Not on tg, not anymore. I fucking hate the state the codebase is in and the unneeded, unasked for “balance” changes that completely gut the game to a point of complete slog and unplayability.

By the September 2021 it was so fucking bad that there was no way I could keep playing on this codebase anymore. Chunky fingers, the impending removal of hardsuits, circuits not being what I expected them to be (they are completely fucking useless), and the now introduction of objectives based traitor makes the game boring. Maybe someone will fork 2019 tg one day, so I could enjoy playing it or something idk. It’s legitimately only gotten worse since then.
The status quo you refer to simply does not exist. It’s not a status quo if you constantly keep changing the rules, admins and the codebase, it’s a slow morphing of tg into a massive mountain of what I assume to be human feces. This is how I see it. You may disagree, that’s alright with me.
I keep coming back because I want a definitive answer to the ages-long question of whether terry playes really hate murderbone or not. It has never been answered with conclusive data. It has been answered on Bagil because Bagil has clearly shit itself in 2020-2021, to the point of being a dead server now. I thank Mothblocks for his graciously provided graph that show Bagil clearly taking a nosedive in pop in 2021 in particular.

All I want is an answer to my question and I have already presented a way to get it. A poll or temporary redirect to campbell.

[sinfulbliss]

do we want a community that prioritizes roleplay and being considerate or one which prioritizes mechanical and individual freedom?

Great way to ask it. Up until now I thought TG was striving to do both. LRP servers for individual freedom, Manuel for roleplay. I'm not sure why we are forcing one or the other, when clearly there are two separate playerbases that prefer one over the other, to the point where they'd never step foot in the other playerbase.

honestly people looking at every other lrp server and calling it aids mixed with hating the idea of rule 3 just makes me think you're having fun picking on people putting more effort into the game than you and as such it isn't fun in an environment where nobody is trying very hard

Ignores all the nuance. Not liking rule 3 doesn't automatically make you a low-effort RP player that plays solely to sap the fun out of others' experience, what? There are different aspects of the game that people enjoy.

You shouldn't conflate lack of RP with a fast pace, nor the chaos of a round with its duration.

Then why, as the RP level of a server goes up, do the rounds get longer and calmer? I'm not making this up - I've played on LRP, MRP, and HRP, and the rounds on LRP are simply and unequivocally shorter than the higher-RP counterparts, and the reason is because of the RP rules influencing the overall tenor and pace of the round. Less high-octane combat, more roleplaying. You don't murderbone while roleplaying, although I'd love to see it.

This would never lead to antags getting rekt early, by the way. It's the complete opposite. Crew is prevented from killing antags simply because "valid," antags retain full freedom but crew is restricted. The round is essentially the antags' plaything, and they have protection in the rules from being killed FNR. Issue is now antags have no pressure to do anything, there is no mob after them, they can take the round as slow as they like. On every single server where this policy exists, antags choose, unsurprisingly, to take things slow and not die in 20 minutes. Unsurprisingly, when antags optimize their rounds to die in 20-30~ minutes, they tend to cause more of an impact than when they can just fuck about with all their gear on running through the halls for 1.5 hours. I am absolutely certain this rule, if applied, will bring slower and longer rounds. It'd likely take a month or so before the culture adjusts to show a difference, but it will if it's enforced seriously.

(Also, suggesting you can have admins poke the antags with a cattle-prod to bring a little life in the round, or increase threat, is an artificial solution that will never match up to the natural chaos LRP currently enjoys).

[Rohen_Tahir]

@athath
Yes, in the start things will be confusing. I hope (and assume) admins will have the wisdom to not just enforce their own personal interpretation of the rule, but instead will touch base with others before using it.

I hope and assume there is 20kg of gold hidden somewhere in your walls.

[Armhulen]

if admins can't handle an interpretive rule in a game where almost every ruling is circumstantial then maybe they should not be adminning

[The Wrench]

SNIP

Antagonists don't need validhunters banging down their doors before they did anything antagonistic to do antagonistic things. Getting a bad man role just means it's your job to make the shift more interesting. Validhunters DIDN'T get that job. they are not the main character.

[MrStonedOne]

So this is how LRP dies... with thunderous applause.

...

reactive or proactive lane leaving? If the chemist is getting mutagen and going to botany or ass-garden to make some overpowered bullshit, and blue alert only just barely triggered, and there is no antagonistic shit going on, why would that be allowed? technically its already against the rules.

This kind of shit is why cross-departmental interactions and mechanically deep projects are so rarely seen- people like you lose their shit when you grab or invest in something from another department that synergizes or does something cool with something from your own. Only being able to use items from your department is a cyborg limitation, not a human one.

manuel still expects crew members to do their job, the other servers won't

Even though chemists who decide to perform the heinous cross-departmental act of "growing a combat plant" are supposed to be reprimanded? Will botanists also be punished for growing combat plants or holy melons without an antag callout?

I'd honestly draw the comparison more towards Fulp here than towards Manuel.
mount, err, i mean we wouldn't do that at all ever >=})

If a CHEMIST went and used their job to get a bunch of mutagen then fucked off to break into botany and make overpowered shit for no reason, then from there decided to patrol maint validhunting, that is ALREADY BANNABLE. if you want to do that, start as a botanist and get mutagen from the chemist, or as chemist give mutagen to the botanists. the fact you tried to claim that stopping this kinda of abuse kills interdepartmental cooperation, when its trying to prevent people from bypassing interdepartmental cooperation, is kinda silly.

(as an aside, an ooc justification for murder is not an ic justification for murder, the fact security hasn't started arresting and brigging these vigilantes for premeditated murder by prepping up to kill and hunting in maint for people to kill, is kinda shocking given how much security hates grey tiders. Food for thought)

[Super Aggro Crag]

Cry about it pussy tits. for guys who say you love the challenge and intensity of ss13 you seem to fucking shit yourselves and demand people stop bullying you when your opponents have an opportunity to fight back.

Stupid fucking retard. Guys argument is UHHH I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO LOOK FOR A NEW SERVER SO DONT DO ANYTHING I DONT LIKE. Fucking moron.

Guy: maybe we should put our turds into a toilet so that people dont get shit thrown at them all day.

Shit throwing chimp who goes out of his way to look for turds so he can throw shit at everyone: BUT THEN HOW WILL I THROW SHIT AT PEOPLE?

Guy: you could throw shit somewhere else but we dont want it here

SHITCHIMP: WHERE THO?! IM BEING OPPRESSED THIS IS JUST LIKE WHEN THEY EXPELLED THE JEWS IM LITERALLY BEING HOLOCAUSTED AAAH

Guy: whatever shitchimp

Shitchimp: AHHHH AD HOMINEM AD HOMINEM I WINNNNN

Piss up a flagpole and see if you get wet you parasite.

that ass of yours must be very deep if you can keep pulling dumb, shitty arguements out of it repeatedly for over 5 years

fucking newfag i've been pulling dumb shitty arguments out of my ass since 2010

[MrStonedOne]

For the record, pandarsenic has a better grasp on what this rule originally meant then even I did. They were one of the admin trainers at the time I was a candidate, (but not i think my main trainer, that was bluespace, (same as sticky), iirc, or maybe it was, cuz like it was also sorta hbl and sos because I was only a candidate because I was hosting the website at the time, its all confusing.)

Also everybody keeps missing the two pieces of the rule, let me break this rule down for you, i'll edit this into the op as well.

This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. - preamble establishing intent and reasoning

Being an asshole, who ruins other player’s roleplay experience, - piece 1

just to win, - piece 2

is considered a ‘play-to-win’ style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. - tie everything together

Be considerate of other players’ experience. - finish off strong with a call to action.


Piece 2 is a condition on piece 1.

Everybody say it with me now.

Piece 2 is a condition on piece 1.

[Boot]

so I can be an asshole who ruins other players roleplay experience if I suicide right after?

Edit: My main point here is that this doesn't seem all that different then just a differently worded rule 1.

[Super Aggro Crag]

so I can be an asshole who ruins other players roleplay experience if I suicide right after?

yes

[Tearling]

This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. - preamble establishing intent and reasoning

Being an asshole, who ruins other player’s roleplay experience, - piece 1

just to win, - piece 2

is considered a ‘play-to-win’ style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. - tie everything together

It's important to note that piece 2 is a condition on piece 1.

Does this mean that an antag trying to greentext will get punished if they don't have a roleplay gimmick/idea in mind, if their syndicate objective ruins another person's roleplay experience, for example in an assassination objective?

[GamerAndYeahMick]

I trust some admins with this more than others and I am dubious about this rule and unforeseen consequences, I will say if it's executed well it SHOULD be fine but there will be some people who just love to moan about x having y and be anal about it and start annoying ahelps which will probably ruin it

[Archie700]

This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. - preamble establishing intent and reasoning

Being an asshole, who ruins other player’s roleplay experience, - piece 1

just to win, - piece 2

is considered a ‘play-to-win’ style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. - tie everything together

It's important to note that piece 2 is a condition on piece 1.

Does this mean that an antag trying to greentext will get punished if they don't have a roleplay gimmick/idea in mind, if their syndicate objective ruins another person's roleplay experience, for example in an assassination objective?

No, as long as you have a reason to kill the target (objective, being a witness), you should be fine.

[oranges]

I think all the people against this should go back to the hippie server that just started where their NORP loving bitch ass belongs.

[iamgoofball]

have any of you guys freaking out about "Where will the LRP players go" considered playing goon? it's LRP

[CMDR_Gungnir]

This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. - preamble establishing intent and reasoning

Being an asshole, who ruins other player’s roleplay experience, - piece 1

just to win, - piece 2

is considered a ‘play-to-win’ style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. - tie everything together

It's important to note that piece 2 is a condition on piece 1.

Does this mean that an antag trying to greentext will get punished if they don't have a roleplay gimmick/idea in mind, if their syndicate objective ruins another person's roleplay experience, for example in an assassination objective?

Well, you're a Syndie. Doing your job sounds like roleplay to me.

[Pandarsenic]

so I can be an asshole who ruins other players roleplay experience if I suicide right after?

Edit: My main point here is that this doesn't seem all that different then just a differently worded rule 1.

If it's funny enough to retroactively un-ruin their round, hell yeah you can, but the distinction is that this isn't purely enforcement of RP but a more stringent banning of disruptive powergaming

Does this mean that an antag trying to greentext will get punished if they don't have a roleplay gimmick/idea in mind, if their syndicate objective ruins another person's roleplay experience, for example in an assassination objective?

No; the freedom of antags to do what they want whenever they want has always been a core element of the server culture, including through this rule's era.

----

I want to address this next post in parts, woop woop

You shouldn't conflate lack of RP with a fast pace, nor the chaos of a round with its duration.

Then why, as the RP level of a server goes up, do the rounds get longer and calmer? I'm not making this up - I've played on LRP, MRP, and HRP, and the rounds on LRP are simply and unequivocally shorter than the higher-RP counterparts, and the reason is because of the RP rules influencing the overall tenor and pace of the round. Less high-octane combat, more roleplaying. You don't murderbone while roleplaying, although I'd love to see it.

Simply-put, this correlation does not hold to earlier-era /tg/ vs. current-era /tg/, meaning that the correlation of round duration to RP level must be explained by something different (or by several factors of RP raising it, then something else bringing it back down). Old-era /tg/ rounds lasted from 20 minutes (with the most aggressive antags rendering the station unusable by that point because Stun Combat made a sufficiently skilled player able to solo an arbitrary number of people or because I knew how to use the incinerator to make infinite maxcap canister bombs in 10 minutes with old atmos) to 40 minutes average, with occasional outliers up to an hour, except at the latest-of-night lowpop.

Modern Sybil rounds are often significantly longer than that, with me generally seeing most rounds make it to 40 and the outliers leaning to the high side, peaking at 90-minute rounds during normal populations that never happened before.

You might explain it away by the relative fragility of the station, with problems built in like the Singularity being able the only engine and prone to devastating the whole station when it was inevitably released, vs. the Supermatter whose destruction is honestly just a mild inconvenience because you can hide in lockers and then set up solars. I don't buy that explanation.

This would never lead to antags getting rekt early, by the way. It's the complete opposite. Crew is prevented from killing antags simply because "valid," antags retain full freedom but crew is restricted. The round is essentially the antags' plaything, and they have protection in the rules from being killed FNR. Issue is now antags have no pressure to do anything, there is no mob after them, they can take the round as slow as they like. On every single server where this policy exists, antags choose, unsurprisingly, to take things slow and not die in 20 minutes. Unsurprisingly, when antags optimize their rounds to die in 20-30~ minutes, they tend to cause more of an impact than when they can just fuck about with all their gear on running through the halls for 1.5 hours. I am absolutely certain this rule, if applied, will bring slower and longer rounds. It'd likely take a month or so before the culture adjusts to show a difference, but it will if it's enforced seriously.

(Also, suggesting you can have admins poke the antags with a cattle-prod to bring a little life in the round, or increase threat, is an artificial solution that will never match up to the natural chaos LRP currently enjoys).

I want to clear up a fundamental misunderstanding here:

- Sec are free to request whatever they want from the crew, deputize anyone they see fit, arm up disproportionally, etc. - whether you want to draft the gray tide, preemptively patrol maint, have a bunch of guns, etc., just be sec to do it because hunting antags is your job. Just don't do imposing, obnoxious Weird Shit like demand chemistry and the chaplain make you holy water grenades before you've spotted any signs of cult or wiz and you're basically fine. Much as it is now, doing stuff like grabbing a Riot Shield with no sign of any threat yet was frowned upon as powergamey and classless. This exact same principle is just extended to other tacky forms of low-creativity, low-interaction disaster prep, like stealing excessive extra batons and leaving none for latejoin sec. But you won't get bwoinked for them unless they reach an excessive level. If you want a chemical implant of healing chems and a little meth? Based, hit up the chemist and get it made! Just don't break in or force your way in to make it yourself. See the difference here? This is basically just a slight extension of the same rules as not doing truly-random searches, which (funny enough) were actually server-legal back when this rule was a thing, just seen as a bit of a dick move.

- All crew are free to arm up to a reasonable degree in advance, as long as they're not being over-the-top about it and neglecting all the parts of their job that don't contribute to the validhunt (bringing death-chem syringe guns or murderplants into maintenance to look for antags without doing anything for the MDs/chef, etc.). They are actually encouraged to mobilize against threats using what their own department has or makes. You can prep as much as you want, so long as you aren't useless or an outright burden to your department and your station in doing so. You're also expected not to do prep that shits up departments' usability for others, like tiders stealing all the medkits out of medbay just so they can do field healing against an antag or taking all the surgical tools as weapons.

Once active threats show their hands, all bets are off. This isn't Manuel. You do what you gotta to survive. Once you've seen or heard an armblade, or a Syndicate Bomb, or god help you someone calling out funny hands/flashing on the radio (or the radio itself going out), put on your Doom music and grab what you need.

If this rule comes back, I like to believe the station can stop being made overly secure (REINFORCED. WINDOWS) and non-R&D crew tools can stop being nerfed... or can even be brought back/buffed again.

[Pandarsenic]

If you wanna ask "but what happens if I X" or "could I do Y" hypotheticals, I made a thread for it, incidentally viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30793

[Jonathan Gupta]

have any of you guys freaking out about "Where will the LRP players go" considered playing goon? it's LRP

goon fucking sucks.

[tjatpbnj]

The admin team obviously is full of individual people and not a hive mind, and so we all disagree with each other on some issues. The deployment of this rule and how these issues and beliefs clash are what I fear the most.
I hope that if/when this rule is implemented everyone manages to keep a stable head to help people enjoy the game more, and don't swing too far one way or another.


I'm kinda for it but I'm gonna be real sad if this shuts down the antag freedom that I love so much - I don't even play antagonist anymore but I will 100% argue that antagonist freedom is one of the biggest drivers of sybil shifts and stories. Please do not remove our story's driver.

Why would this rule be different from all the other rules that antagonists are exempt from? I don't think it's meant to apply to antags at all.

[cacogen]

I agree, powergaming is bad. Only when it inconveniences me, though. Otherwise, I'm ambivalent towards it. Unless it benefits me. Then it's good.

[NecromancerAnne]

Why would this rule be different from all the other rules that antagonists are exempt from? I don't think it's meant to apply to antags at all.

In part, it could in spirit.

The way this used to be enforced on antags to counter this being enforced on security, was that admins had free roam to do some tasteful button presses to make the antag's round more challenging. If you're gonna play to win as tator, so will the gods. Then hijack came out and that become frowned upon because it was already generally frowned upon to make it harder for antags to honestly achieve their objectives.

Given I ported in new hijack, this doesn't seem as outrageous anymore. Hell, traitors don't even have hijack anymore, so there may be a future where hijack simply disappears entirely.

[sinfulbliss]

Simply-put, this correlation does not hold to earlier-era /tg/ vs. current-era /tg/, meaning that the correlation of round duration to RP level must be explained by something different (or by several factors of RP raising it, then something else bringing it back down). Old-era /tg/ rounds lasted from 20 minutes (with the most aggressive antags rendering the station unusable by that point because Stun Combat made a sufficiently skilled player able to solo an arbitrary number of people or because I knew how to use the incinerator to make infinite maxcap canister bombs in 10 minutes with old atmos) to 40 minutes average, with occasional outliers up to an hour, except at the latest-of-night lowpop.

Modern Sybil rounds are often significantly longer than that, with me generally seeing most rounds make it to 40 and the outliers leaning to the high side, peaking at 90-minute rounds during normal populations that never happened before.

You might explain it away by the relative fragility of the station, with problems built in like the Singularity being able the only engine and prone to devastating the whole station when it was inevitably released, vs. the Supermatter whose destruction is honestly just a mild inconvenience because you can hide in lockers and then set up solars. I don't buy that explanation.

Okay, I'll take your word for it since I can't speak for TG pre-2015 like you absolute fossils out here.

I want to clear up a fundamental misunderstanding here:

- Sec are free to request whatever they want from the crew, deputize anyone they see fit, arm up disproportionally, etc. - whether you want to draft the gray tide, preemptively patrol maint, have a bunch of guns, etc., just be sec to do it because hunting antags is your job. Just don't do imposing, obnoxious Weird Shit like demand chemistry and the chaplain make you holy water grenades before you've spotted any signs of cult or wiz and you're basically fine. Much as it is now, doing stuff like grabbing a Riot Shield with no sign of any threat yet was frowned upon as powergamey and classless. This exact same principle is just extended to other tacky forms of low-creativity, low-interaction disaster prep, like stealing excessive extra batons and leaving none for latejoin sec. But you won't get bwoinked for them unless they reach an excessive level. If you want a chemical implant of healing chems and a little meth? Based, hit up the chemist and get it made! Just don't break in or force your way in to make it yourself. See the difference here? This is basically just a slight extension of the same rules as not doing truly-random searches, which (funny enough) were actually server-legal back when this rule was a thing, just seen as a bit of a dick move.

This I do not understand nor am I certain admins would even agree with this when it comes down to enforcement. Powergaming exists as security too, and what is and isn't an "excessive level" is up to admin discretion. I got noted on Manuel before for holding a shotgun with improv shells in it, as it was considered powergaming. This is certainly not something anyone on LRP would classify as powergaming, nor is it something that is practical to craft after the shit has hit the fan and battle needs to be engaged. Likewise this fact you're not able to hack into chem and make things yourself, applied to every department, slows the entire game down. It adds a little bit of interaction, but the "stay-in-your-lane" rules are incredibly annoying to every LRP player, because why not just do it yourself? The chemist has his own things to work on, and you have your own separate goals. The chemist usually just asks you to make it yourself anyway on LRP. On Manuel you'd get bwoinked for this, though. Again I imagine some admins would bwoink for this via rule 3 and others won't, the rule is intentionally vague enough to where both could be justified. Which just adds further issues in enforcement.

- All crew are free to arm up to a reasonable degree in advance, as long as they're not being over-the-top about it and neglecting all the parts of their job that don't contribute to the validhunt

I disagree that this is what is meant by rule 3. MSO already directly stated that even an assistant crafting cablecuffs for his belt shift-start would be forbidden since he's powergaming cablecuffs without a direct threat existing. If we're to the point where cablecuffs could be justified as powergaming, then we're even past the level of what Manuel bwoinks for.

[Pandarsenic]

Fossil: MY BONES ACHE EVERY TIME I WAKE UP, IT'S AWFUL. By the time I've welded into Tech Storage to steal a flash at roundstart, I'm already exhausted again.

Staying in Lane: Keep in mind the context here! A chem implant is very much a "nice to have but far from essential" level of gear. As powergaming goes, I would say if you're going for a chem implant, it's either for the novelty of chem implant, or because you've run out of all the many, many stronger and easier things to get. Chem implants aren't efficient.

But that's okay, because you know what else you can do, assuming there's a chemist and no ongoing threat?

just

ask him to let you in/let you borrow a chemdispenser

or ask the CMO for a chemdispenser board
or sneak to their lathe and print your own chemdispenser board

Literally just don't be disruptive to the other people there

If he lets you in (or tells/invites you to make the chems yourself), awesome, go for it! Live the dream. Just don't shit up other people's departments in a quest to accumulate a fat stack of Gamer Loot to unleash upon the first antag you see. You're not forced to stay in your lane, but you are forced not to invade someone else's without an urgent reason. Don't be a Christmas decoration showing up in November. Does this not seem reasonable to you? Like, this isn't the same as "AI is subverted, we're lasering into engineering for gloves and extended oxygen tanks, then going to chemistry for thermite. If the engineers dick us around, I will shoot them and I will not blink twice."

(Side note: All of those "maybe bwoink maybe not" things should not be resulting in a ban on the first time; if you do it enough to get a rep for it, or several rounds in a row while an admin watches, all without meeting bare minimum RP requirements, you might get a note that escalates into a later ban if your behavior causes problems. But none of this is ban-on-sight, and certainly not in the wake of a rules change while everyone is adjusting)

[ATHATH]

Once active threats show their hands, all bets are off. This isn't Manuel. You do what you gotta to survive. Once you've seen or heard an armblade, or a Syndicate Bomb, or god help you someone calling out funny hands/flashing on the radio (or the radio itself going out), put on your Doom music and grab what you need.

So as soon as any antag anywhere fucks up and gets called out (or the clown fakes an antag announcement), everyone can act as if they were under the old prep rules? Doesn't that basically just put an arbitrary, wildly variable delay on the prep meta we currently have?

This reeks to me of the "wardens can't reinforce the armory until an antag gets called out" (or was it until someone tries to break into the armory? I forget) ruling, which I absolutely despise, as it makes early round warden gameplay just "wait until someone inevitably finds an antag so that you can actually get to do half of what you're playing this job for".

[tjatpbnj]

Once active threats show their hands, all bets are off. This isn't Manuel. You do what you gotta to survive. Once you've seen or heard an armblade, or a Syndicate Bomb, or god help you someone calling out funny hands/flashing on the radio (or the radio itself going out), put on your Doom music and grab what you need.

So as soon as any antag anywhere fucks up and gets called out (or the clown fakes an antag announcement), everyone can act as if they were under the old prep rules? Doesn't that basically just put an arbitrary, wildly variable delay on the prep meta we currently have?

This reeks to me of the "wardens can't reinforce the armory until an antag gets called out" (or was it until someone tries to break into the armory? I forget) ruling, which I absolutely despise, as it makes early round warden gameplay just "wait until someone inevitably finds an antag so that you can actually get to do half of what you're playing this job for".

The "arbitrary, variable delay" is not very arbitrary. You prepare and grab stuff to defend yourself AFTER you know there's a threat to defend against.

[ATHATH]

ask him to let you in/let you borrow a chemdispenser

or ask the CMO for a chemdispenser board
or sneak to their lathe and print your own chemdispenser board

Literally just don't be disruptive to the other people there

And what if he says no (and also refuses to take your request)? What if he doesn't exist? Is your attempt at cross-departmental cooperation immediately just fucked, try again next shift? Why should I need to spend 15 minutes making my own chem setup in maint when there are no less than three full sets of chemistry equipment in Medbay?

[ATHATH]

The "arbitrary, variable delay" is not very arbitrary. You prepare and grab stuff to defend yourself AFTER you know there's a threat to defend against.

I thought that the stated reason of the delay was to protect antags or something? That delay could range from an hour down to just 1 minute ("flashing botany") based on factors entirely outside of your control as an antag (namely, the actions of OTHER antags)- how does that consistently protect anyone?

[tjatpbnj]

I thought that the stated reason of the delay was to protect antags or something? That delay could range from an hour down to just 1 minute ("flashing botany") based on factors entirely outside of your control as an antag (namely, the actions of OTHER antags)- how does that consistently protect anyone?

It lets those who don't kit out with powerful weapons for no reason be on equal footing with those who do. The reason for the delay is that you don't know if there are threats at roundstart, so you shouldn't be preparing for them.

[ATHATH]

It lets those who don't kit out with powerful weapons for no reason be on equal footing with those who do. The reason for the delay is that you don't know if there are threats at roundstart, so you shouldn't be preparing for them.

but they'd only be on equal footing for as long as it takes for an antag to fuck up and get outed, no? which could be as soon as 2 minutes into the round?

the second reason you gave isn't a very good one, because as the devs of the game, we can just change the lore/in-game messages to imply that players CAN know that there are threats at roundstart.

[Farquaar]

I like roleplay but I don’t know how I feel about this. We’ll see how it’s enforced, I guess.

[Archie700]

It lets those who don't kit out with powerful weapons for no reason be on equal footing with those who do. The reason for the delay is that you don't know if there are threats at roundstart, so you shouldn't be preparing for them.

but they'd only be on equal footing for as long as it takes for an antag to fuck up and get outed, no? which could be as soon as 2 minutes into the round?

If an antag fucks up and gets outed and people start kitting, that's a player issue, not a policy one.
Unironic skill issue. Not drawing attention to yourself when another traitor is found and people are wary is a basic skill to learn for traitors.

[Mothblocks]

And what if he says no (and also refuses to take your request)?

Then, tough! If a head of staff doesn't want you coming into their department, then what were you going to do before the rule? Break in and get your ass kicked, or hope they're not there?

What if he doesn't exist?

Then you're not being disruptive to anyone there, because they don't exist.

[sinfulbliss]

And what if he says no (and also refuses to take your request)?

Then, tough! If a head of staff doesn't want you coming into their department, then what were you going to do before the rule? Break in and get your ass kicked, or hope they're not there?

This seems sort of insane to me. A CMO can simply dislike you, and tell you to fuck off his department, and you aren't allowed to break in because it'd violate rule 3?

[ATHATH]

If an antag fucks up and gets outed and people start kitting, that's a player issue, not a policy one.

Once active threats show their hands, all bets are off. This isn't Manuel. You do what you gotta to survive. Once you've seen or heard an armblade, or a Syndicate Bomb, or god help you someone calling out funny hands/flashing on the radio (or the radio itself going out), put on your Doom music and grab what you need.

Unironic skill issue. Not drawing attention to yourself when another traitor is found and people are wary is a basic skill to learn for traitors.

[Archie700]

If an antag fucks up and gets outed and people start kitting, that's a player issue, not a policy one.

Once active threats show their hands, all bets are off. This isn't Manuel. You do what you gotta to survive. Once you've seen or heard an armblade, or a Syndicate Bomb, or god help you someone calling out funny hands/flashing on the radio (or the radio itself going out), put on your Doom music and grab what you need.

Unironic skill issue. Not drawing attention to yourself when another traitor is found and people are wary is a basic skill to learn for traitors.

The whole point is to hopefully give traitors some breathing room by preventing people from arming up without reason. If someone decides that subtlety is for other people and goes loud immediately, then tough luck, you're now dealing with a wary crew, which is basically...every shift, in the end.
At least now, you don't have people suddenly popping up with stunprods and cablecuffs just immediately on "HELP DORMS"

[CMDR_Gungnir]

And what if he says no (and also refuses to take your request)?

Then, tough! If a head of staff doesn't want you coming into their department, then what were you going to do before the rule? Break in and get your ass kicked, or hope they're not there?

This seems sort of insane to me. A CMO can simply dislike you, and tell you to fuck off his department, and you aren't allowed to break in because it'd violate rule 3?

Yeah. Fuck the GreyTide. If the CMO doesn't want to give you something you can try asking someone else. If he's refusing to let you in for basic treatment, then you can take it up with the Captain. (Or you can tell the admins you might be being metagrudged).