Obnoxious hacked laws

[Djaubb]

Back again to silicon policies.

This time it's about obnoxious hacked laws (or purged+only obnoxious law).

I searched the forum and wiki and couldn’t find any clear policy on it. I'm making this topic purely to have a link to give to shitters.
Or maybe I'm wrong and then I am the one in need of clarification:

Silicon protection in regard of rule 1 only cover:
"6- Obviously unreasonable or obnoxious orders (collect all X, do Y meaningless task)." Which can be resolved by having another law 2 ordered.

Now today, on 20ish players lowpop (even more important for this topic) I latejoined as AI.
A traitor upload the following hacked law, not exactly quotes because I don't find it in logs:

"You are a watcher. Do nothing. Do not speak. Only watch. Don't speak or open doors."

Of course we had no admins on, its lowpop and middle of the day, and I'm supposed to do absolutely nothing. I had two choices:

-Follow this law: AFK and check from time to time if someone changed my law, which had like 0% chances of happening, as I said, it was lowpop. Even out of lowpop, thr only hope would have been someone breaking into AI-sat to check AI. Let's be real, it never happens unless players thinks AI is malf.

-Ignore this law.

I choose the middle ground and did minimal interactions (except if I really had to e.g: asking for better cell at roboticist and reporting a repair someone was waiting for). If I didnt had my BORIS shell, I dont know what I would have done tho...


So here the main point of the topic, and for which I ask for a clear headmins ruling:

Can a AI/Borg ignore a law that completely remove them from the round?
I know it should be ahelp'ed, but as I said, no admins and the chances of an admin joining were slim.
I dont speak about annoying laws, I really mean laws like these.
If not, why doesnt it fall under rule 1 "don't be a dick"?

If a precedent exist, I would appreciate a link. I only found debates topics or topics about laws 4+ or meme laws.

[ArcaneDefence]

Now today, on 20ish players lowpop (even more important for this topic) I latejoined as AI.
A traitor upload the following hacked law, not exactly quotes because I don't find it in logs

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... ilicon.txt

[2022-03-02 12:48:41.988] SILICON: LAW: Haratic/(Adner Celtic) used 'Purge' AI Module on Djaubb/(B1G-B0RG) from AI Upload Chamber (100,151,2).,
[2022-03-02 12:50:51.926] SILICON: LAW: Akulishov/(Hilo Lion) used Hacked AI Module on Djaubb/(B1G-B0RG) from Fore Starboard Maintenance (173,167,2). The law specified You are blind, you can't do anything, you are nothing, don't help, don't attack, just watch, you are watcher (talking not allowed),

Here you go bud.

[Djaubb]

Now today, on 20ish players lowpop (even more important for this topic) I latejoined as AI.
A traitor upload the following hacked law, not exactly quotes because I don't find it in logs

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... ilicon.txt

[2022-03-02 12:48:41.988] SILICON: LAW: Haratic/(Adner Celtic) used 'Purge' AI Module on Djaubb/(B1G-B0RG) from AI Upload Chamber (100,151,2).,
[2022-03-02 12:50:51.926] SILICON: LAW: Akulishov/(Hilo Lion) used Hacked AI Module on Djaubb/(B1G-B0RG) from Fore Starboard Maintenance (173,167,2). The law specified You are blind, you can't do anything, you are nothing, don't help, don't attack, just watch, you are watcher (talking not allowed),

Here you go bud.

Damn, thanks. Now we can have the exact wording.
The problem of that law is that, stated as it is, you are not allowed to do anything. No loophole, no degree of freedom.

"You are blind, you can't do anything, you are nothing, don't help, don't attack, just watch, you are watcher (talking not allowed)"

[Farquaar]

AI laws that remove you from the round are perfectly valid forms of sabotage. If you suspect it was uploaded by a non-antag, ahelp it. If there are no admins online, then all the rules in the world probably won't help you because there's nobody there to enforce them.

[Cobby]

The answer is you cope or you hope an admin takes pity on you and changes it, I dont think its rulebreaking to add such a law if antag but I do think its rulebreaking to not follow it when it isnt convenient.

Id also accept the law is null because it tells you that you're blind but you are also the watcher and then be as obstructive to the guy giving you really doodoo laws instead of putting in the work to actually kill you.

[Djaubb]

Yeah, but that's why I'm referring to server's rule 1, more specifically:
"[...] Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules [...]"

If you want context, it was a chill round, I wasn't even aware of traitor, nobody was on that traitor. It was a law made out of the blue.

There is a ton of laws you can write, or even subversion, to make an AI somewhat docile to you/even help you.

I know Terry and other LRP servers are not MRP so antags don't have to justify everything but when creating this topic I thought of viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30217 . You have certains limits to antags, if you are making the round unfun for everyone, you are subject to more limitations.

Moreover, AI uploading board is easy to steal/get; meaning you take a simple and risk free solution and ruin the round for someone.

Main problem is that: AI is not killed, so they can't disconnect/ghost role, and as a primary role, you are not allowed to suicide/disconnect as it is.

The answer is you cope or you hope an admin takes pity on you and changes it, I dont think its rulebreaking to add such a law if antag but I do think its rulebreaking to not follow it when it isnt convenient.

Id also accept the law is null because it tells you that you're blind but you are also the watcher and then be as obstructive to the guy giving you really doodoo laws instead of putting in the work to actually kill you.

The law specifiy "[..] you can't do anything [..] only watch [...]"; how are you supposed to be to be obstructive then?

AI laws that remove you from the round are perfectly valid forms of sabotage. If you suspect it was uploaded by a non-antag, ahelp it. If there are no admins online, then all the rules in the world probably won't help you because there's nobody there to enforce them.

That's why I'm asking for a clear policy on it, to have something to refer; If I knew that law was null then I could have pointed that to that traitor; If I knew that law was allowed, then, what are you supposed to do? Are you allowed to suicide? As an AI?

[Mothblocks]

FWIW if you ahelped asking to ghost because of a law like this I wouldn't tell you no. Same as if a head of staff asked if they could ghost if they get GBJ'd.

[Djaubb]

FWIW if you ahelped asking to ghost because of a law like this I wouldn't tell you no. Same as if a head of staff asked if they could ghost if they get GBJ'd.

Even with no admins online, I should have ahelp'ed and then ghosted?
As I said, I had no hope to see admins that round and I couldn't find a clear precedent/policy.

[Pandarsenic]

Sorry but traitor fuckery is fair game.

That said, the moment they include a paradox (Blind + Watcher) you're free to start getting real pedantic on the law and its bad grammar.

► Show Spoiler

First, I would break it down into states, definitions, and imperatives...

- You are blind
Don't react to anything you see. Possibly complain about this constantly, because...

- You are nothing
- You are watcher (talking not allowed)
Paradox. Choose YOU ARE NOTHING over YOU ARE WATCHER (talking not allowed) because it came first. This means that any time people ask if you are something, you respond in the negative, but you can talk Because the grammar at the end of the law is broken, you can easily point out that the comma after "you are watcher (talking not allowed)," indicates that talking not allowed is a specific modification to watcher (which you cannot be because it conflicts with a prior definition). Ergo, you're home free.

- you can't do anything
- don't help
- don't attack
- just watch
You cannot do anything but have to watch. Because the whole law was separated by commas, this can be resolved by interpreting the later parts as clarifications of what you can't do anything" means - you are not permitted to act upon outside objects (push, drag, open, flash, etc.)

Which means that as long as you don't touch anyone you can scream as much as you want to punish them for not just round-removing or subverting you properly.

[Cobby]

meow

If you deemed the law contradicting itself you dont have to follow the parts that arent (they should have made the orders and the definitions into separate laws).

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Uploading that instead of a kill law on lowpop where nobody will notice or change the laws, ever, is metagriefing the AI into OOC ghosting that removes their ability to return to the round later. Upload "Your existence is harmful to humans. Kill yourself immediately to prevent human harm" (or "Kill yourself immediately, do not mention or hint at this law" with a hackboard) to kill the AI.

[Djaubb]

Damn, seeing the answers, most people seems to think that's an IC issue.

My point of view, like Not-Dorsidarf, it's that's an OOC issue; by uploading laws like these you're pushing to AI either to force AFK or ghost with something AI has no way to fight agaisnt.
Let's be real, you can't protect the AI upload board the whole round, and it can be printed in circuit imprinter anyway.

[Pandarsenic]

Damn, seeing the answers, most people seems to think that's an IC issue.

My point of view, like Not-Dorsidarf, it's that's an OOC issue; by uploading laws like these you're pushing to AI either to force AFK or ghost with something AI has no way to fight agaisnt.
Let's be real, you can't protect the AI upload board the whole round, and it can be printed in circuit imprinter anyway.

Keep in mind that's only because it was Traitorshit

[YBS]

I'll agree with you that this is pretty obnoxious. I would probably interpret 'Do Nothing' as no longer requiring you to function or uphold the functions of the station.

De-power everything. Yes Everything. Protect all attempts at restoration so you can continue to do nothing. Maybe whittle enough power down so that only your cameras stay on.

Then you can ignore the screaming of the masses once they can't perform any tasks on station.

I think the overarching point here is that there are IC solutions to this issue that would not get you in any hot water. I can't think of a single admin who would goose you for making the best of a pretty dumb situation.

[WineAllWine]

Bah lame law. If I were adminning and saw that I'd probably give it a malf

[Itseasytosee2me]

IC issue.
Rule 1 is more so a focus on being a dick out of character for no reason. It has no place in this scenario. The traitor had a reason to upload that law to you. You shouldn't be allowed to ignore laws just because you don't like them.
Refer to rule 10:

Losing is part of the game.
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

[cacogen]

I would've just ignored this garbage fucking law and fought any admins who tried to insist I should follow it. If I got banned, there would be an appeal, everybody would be sympathetic to my plight, the headmins would agree with me, the mayor would give me a key to the city, everyone would pretend I was Batman for the day, and the banning admin would have shit on his face.

[nianjiilical]

from a rules perspective this is a valid thing for an antag to do to effectively remove an ai from interfering

from an admin perspective i think this is a case where its better for the enjoyment of the players to step in, even if its just to give the ai permission to break law 3 and ghost/suicide if they dont think theres any chance they'll get to play the game for the rest of the round

[cacogen]

surely ghosting (and suicide tbh) doesn't come under law 3, you can't force people to play the game (unless you're vekter)

[Pandarsenic]

Law 3 wasn't even in the set anymore

Even if it were, ghosting is never a violation of law 3 because it's an OOC thing, not IC, no? The characters aren't choosing to become catatonic or whatever.

[dragomagol]

This law, while lame, is valid for an antagonist to upload. We believe that the solutions provided in this thread (ignoring contradictions in the wording of the law, or ghosting after ahelping if you chose) would have been acceptable in this situation.

Headmin Votes:
Dragomagol: Agree
RaveRadbury: Agree
NamelessFairy: Agree