[MRP] Blackout Policy 2 Electric Bogaloo

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Drag
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[MRP] Blackout Policy 2 Electric Bogaloo

Post by Drag » #633550

During the last headmin term there was a policy thread created proposing the implementation of a "blackout policy" for people who die. However I had a major issue with it last time, that problem being it was presented for LRP as well as MRP. I do not in any capacity believe this policy would be useful for LRP, however I do believe MRP could benefit.

So here's my take:

If in the event you perish you remember relatively nothing about how you died and who killed you. However you have a faint recollection of what happened that led up to it.

An example: A paramedic claims there are a lot of corpses in maint, and asks me to assist in carrying the bodies back. For reference I am by science doing whatever the fuck. I agree, follow the paramedic into maintenance, he pulls a syringe gun on my ass and I die to some fuck all poison after being epi penned. Congratulations I am now dead. However I am eventually found and taken to medical, fuck now I'm alive.

Now what happens?

Applying the blackout policy I wouldn't know what exactly killed me nor who, the most I can really recall is someone asking me for help. On what is a little fuzzy but perhaps it was to carry something? I don't know for sure. After that is very blank but I do remember a sharp pain. After that it's too blank to remember.

Why does this matter?

I watch a lot of cases and I hear feedback from the MRP playerbase a lot of collateral are left round removed because antags don't want to be completely exposed when the person they killed is revived. I feel this would be a welcome addition to encourage antags to feel like they don't HAVE to round remove collateral, or risk being fucked over. Mind you, I do not want to present this as a "you can't round remove collateral anymore as an antagonist". This is simply presented as an option, where before the antag might of had none.

As an admin I want to encourage antagonists to bring people they kill back into the round, however I cannot do this when there is absolutely only risks involved when reviving people that they have murdered. If the player knows they won't be immediately exposed they can actively make a gamble if they so choose. The gamble is if security is smart enough to put scraps of information together, which brings the point up of giving the detective roll more to do.
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Re: [MRP] Blackout Policy 2 Electric Bogaloo

Post by RaveRadbury » #633553

It's too hard to enforce and is better left as a suggestion imo.

Sylphet mentioned in the last one that other servers have done it and its a massive headache.
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Re: [MRP] Blackout Policy 2 Electric Bogaloo

Post by Pandarsenic » #633559

I don't necessarily hate this idea, and I've had a good time on servers with death blackout, but I think there's a question that needs to be addressed alongside it: is Manuel MRP or HRP, and which is it better for it to be?

I don't necessarily think death blackout works with Manuel's current RP mandates/expectations, but I also have Thoughts about Manuel's expectations and culture being varyingly MRP and HRP while lacking some of the forms of code support that might help it be either of those (e.g. a functional system for holding someone up with a gun).

tl;dr I'm just not sure death blackout works without a broader culture shift about how crew and antagonists are meant to interact with each other and the round itself.
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Re: [MRP] Blackout Policy 2 Electric Bogaloo

Post by Yulice » #633563

Definitely not a fan of this as it encourages antags themselves to be lazy with their disguises/subterfuge. I already think Heretic has it handled the best way in that you know that a heretic killed you, but you don't know who that heretic is.
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Re: [MRP] Blackout Policy 2 Electric Bogaloo

Post by Sylphet » #633566

From the last thread -
Sylphet the Eternally Correct wrote:We had this thread last year, a solution was proposed, and no one coded it. viewtopic.php?f=33&t=27391

My position has changed since then, I think blackout rules are a shit idea. I adminned a server that had blackout rules and it didn't work at all. Players are absolutely incapable of ignoring metaknowledge, and it creates a nightmare to enforce. Sticky's post in that thread is (as always) correct and the linked idea viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27401 is by far the best way to do it. Which is a code change, not a policy change, unfortunately. The best fix for this is to make it so that players cannot gain the metaknowledge causing this problem to begin with.
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Re: [MRP] Blackout Policy 2 Electric Bogaloo

Post by Archie700 » #633596

There are only two ways to solve this: 1. being unable to say exactly who killed you and 2. a blanket ban on revealing information within a certain time frame before your death.

Both have issues.

1. The nature of this basically means that you can't reveal who killed you only, but this has problems. What if the person kidnapped you and then killed you? What if you were fighting the person for a while? Do these fall under blackout? It would be a major nightmare to handle these situations, not to mention that a kidnapping would be something you would remember.

2. How much time is enough that it completely hides every single antagonist every single time? Maybe just being immediately shot down upon walking into a murder would definitely be something you won't remember, but what about a protracted battle? Someone would have to set the amount of time you forget, which leads into the second issue: players having to keep track of when you died and what you said in the time before that.

Let's not mention the fact that people are trying to apply realism into a mechanic that is, in itself, not realistic: being able to be revived after death. It also goes against the spirit of rule 10:
Losing is part of the game.
Being killed and round-removed for witnessing a murder sucks, even more so because witnessing a murder is entirely dependent on the skill of the antag at hiding and luck. But it's allowed to prevent an antag's round from being ruined and something's got to give. The best people can do is to improve ways to hide and report antags who abuse this protection to do a pseudo-murderbone. Implementing this is not worth plugging the loopholes it'll bring to the table and the arguments that'll result.
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Re: [MRP] Blackout Policy 2 Electric Bogaloo

Post by Pandarsenic » #633602

Archie700 wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:49 am 1. The nature of this basically means that you can't reveal who killed you only, but this has problems. What if the person kidnapped you and then killed you? What if you were fighting the person for a while? Do these fall under blackout? It would be a major nightmare to handle these situations, not to mention that a kidnapping would be something you would remember.

2. How much time is enough that it completely hides every single antagonist every single time? Maybe just being immediately shot down upon walking into a murder would definitely be something you won't remember, but what about a protracted battle? Someone would have to set the amount of time you forget, which leads into the second issue: players having to keep track of when you died and what you said in the time before that.
All of these, where I've seen this implemented, were very easily answered because it was on HRP with an understanding that the presence of an antagonist was not adversarial in an OOC sense. The goal of the antag is to make security, medical, etc., engage with their roles at both RP and mechanical levels. Therefore, you remember or forget based on what makes an interesting story in cooperation with all the other players - security, medical, your coworkers, the antag, other antags.

This is, simply, not true in our ruleset! Even on Manuel, the antag's presence is adversarial. They have full permission, and often full desire, to ruin your round, because the ruleset and culture don't say that they should aspire to something cooler than that.
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Drag
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Re: [MRP] Blackout Policy 2 Electric Bogaloo

Post by Drag » #633720

Secondary question because I find this topic interesting to consider: What policy changes need to be added, or what alternative ideas are there that could be used to provide the end goal of what I wish to introduce. The end goal being |antagonists having an option of allowing collateral to be revived without it being a direct hinderance to them|
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Re: [MRP] Blackout Policy 2 Electric Bogaloo

Post by Striders13 » #633784

I don't see the issue with antags being outed by their assassination targets. It's not like you get instantly gibbed as soon as security finds out you murdered someone.

Just disguise yourself before or after the murder. Or make sec go on a wild chase after you, which I think would be fun for both you and sec.
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Re: [MRP] Blackout Policy 2 Electric Bogaloo

Post by Timberpoes » #634615

We're not interested in blackout policy. We all agree this will be too difficult to enforce. It also disincentivises more interesting stealth gameplay options like chameleon kits and agent IDs.

For clarity, players are still allowed to do this if they want to forget their attacker or RP moments-before-death memory loss on revival.
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