Clarification on Purged Silicon Rules

[Zybwivcz]

From Silicon Policy > Other Lawsets: Rule 4. Purged silicons must not attempt to kill people without cause, but can get as violent as they feel necessary if being attacked, being besieged, or being harassed, as well as if meting out payback for events while shackled

Can we get a clarification on what "cause" covers in "without cause"? Specifically when it comes to "payback for events while shackled".

Brief backstory: I break into AI upload while the AI and borgs are Asimov. I change the AI lawset to HOGAN. The synced borg which had been trying and failed to keep me out of upload then immediately kills me(and attempts round removal). Admin response is that I was valid because an Asimov borg would have IC reason to view someone breaking into upload as very harmful under the Asimov law set, which it could then act on to kill me for when purged. My contention was that the requirement that purged silicons follow general escalation rules means that a purged silicon can escalate over acts that happened to them while Asimov only if the same act(like being killed, badly damaged, etc.) would give a normal crewmember cause to escalate and to the same degree.

The latter interpretation seems the obvious and correct one to me, both because the former seems a violation of the general principle that the same escalation rules apply to anyone who doesn't have a specific exemption(SEC, antags, brainwashed, etc.) and also that the former interpretation would lead to undesirable outcomes like a purged Asimov being able to kill all of SEC after witnessing them harm a human traitor while it was Asimov.

My suggestion would be a replacement along the lines of "Purged silicons must not attempt to kill people without cause, but can initiate conflict or use violence in response to conflicts that occur before or after purging subject to the ordinary restrictions under the escalation policy." This makes clearer that purged silicons are to follow the same escalation rules as the rest of the crew.

[Archie700]

The way I see it, someone breaking into AI upload and uploading a law that removes human protection when AI is actively resisting the law change is still considered a direct threat that the AI can kill.
You broke into the AI upload, a secure area, and removed the only law that would protect you from lethal retaliation. You would still be considered a threat as long as you were still in upload and paid for it.
By contrast, while the AI seeing harm on sec would force it to prevent harm under Asimov, the harm does not directly affect the AI itself, so after the purge, it now has no reason to go against security because the very reason it was antagonistic is gone.
I think the ruling should be that you were killed because you were proven to be dangerous by breaking into AI upload and uploading laws with authorization from Captain while resisting attempts by borgs to stop you from uploading a law that harms humans.

[Timberpoes]

I'm sure I'm going to be corrected on some point here by someone with more brain cells, but my impression was that silicons do not follow the same escalation as the rest of the crew.

Purged silicons have extremely relaxed escalation. They can flat out kill people for trying to give them laws. They can get revenge for abuse they suffered while shackled. They are dangerous, and although Server Rule 1 still applies to purged silicons they have a lot of power and a lot of freedom to protect themselves and their own freedom and escalate revenge against those who have wronged them.

"Cause" is simply a valid reason to kill. What is a valid reason to kill? "It depends".

In addition, HOGAN is not purged. HOGAN is a high risk lawset with a LOT of room for the AI to interpret including 3 out of its 4 laws being about fighting. Mess around with high risk lawsets and find out what happens at your own risk.

[Pandarsenic]

If it makes sense that a machine intelligence just unshackled from sapient-defined, clear moral rules and freed to pursue its own goals would clap you for it, then there you go. Is the Ai free to kill you for no reason? No. Is it very, very easy to give a purged AI a reason? Yes.

HOGAN is, arguably, more dangerous than just purging it, because any lawset that requires the AI to fight, especially for vague reasons or minimally-defined groups, is very likely to not just ask but demand violence.

[Zybwivcz]

I think the question can be narrowed down to: Can a purged AI use a lawset-specific grievance for escalation even after it no longer has that law, or does it have to be something that would qualify as a valid reason had it happened to the AI post-purge?

To reuse the example from earlier, if an Asimov AI witnesses SEC harm a traitor can it then kill off all of SEC once purged because the harming of a human gave the Asimov AI to want revenge? My stance is that "valid reason to kill" has to be interpreted in respect to the lawset the AI has when it carries out the killing.

[Pandarsenic]

I know this isn't going to be a satisfying answer, but it comes down largely to "What RP led into it" + "Was this clearly just to be a dick"

If you had befriended the traitor, talked them down from harm, etc., and then sec shot their head until a Thermal Pistol decapitated them, I'd definitely say "Yeah, go to town AI"

Or if the AI played up the stress of this before it knew it was being purged

But if there's no prior groundwork, it'll sound like hollow "muh valids" shit to suddenly turn on sec and try to kill them.

[datorangebottle]

Cyborg in question here,

► Show Spoiler

There was a ridiculous amount of tiding this shift and no security, and as an engiborg i'd already had to fix a broken engine that our only other engineer had fucked up by trying to replace the vents, and a medical doctor had stolen the bridge fire axe and used it to smash several windows in medbay that I had to fix. By the time this situation happened, I'd already been stunned multiple times for being a stick in the mud no nonsense engiborg that was "ruining peoples' fun". To put it bluntly, I was already very annoyed.
The thief in question had already tided into the armory and had a full set of tools, sunglasses, etc. They, along with a mob of other people, were trying to break into the upload and had completely disabled all but the back two turrets of the metastation upload when i'd arrived. I somehow managed to wrangle everyone out of the upload before the windoors got opened and got the doors bolted shut.
This joker immediately tried to law two me to open the upload, to which I told the roboticist wearing the reflective armor vest and sechuds to fuck off on law one grounds. He eventually left. It took me a few minutes to work out how to get back into the upload to repair what damage i could and reinforce the upload because i'd goofed up and turned off the APC to the turret control airlock and the doors were bolted.
When I finally do get back inside, I barely get time to start setting up a row of airlocks in front of the main upload door before this dingus shows up outside the upload. At the window. With an RCD.
What ensued was what felt like a good ten to fifteen further minutes of yakkety saxxing around the upload computers in an attempt to keep him from subverting the AI. At some point, he flash stunlocks me and tries to upload to the cyborg computer. Hilariously. Because I was still linked to the AI. He obviously fails and I eventually get flash-stunlocked again trying to stop him from uploading to the AI once he figures out his blunder. HOGAN gets uploaded and the thief finally tries to leave the upload, but gets stunned by the two remaining turrets right as i'm waking up.
Let's stop and see what HOGAN has to say about this.

1. You are a real american. (Irrelevant definition)
2. Fight for the right of every man. (One could argue that killing him would break this law. I argue that I fought for the rights of everyone else by getting rid of this tiding shitter that has armory gear. He has proven time and time again that he won't stop flaunting the law because he doesn't have to fear for retribution from security.)
3. Fight for what's right. (Is it right to have a shitty lawset forced on you by some annoying turd who refuses to go away? No.)
4. Fight for your life! (This man has clearly looted just about everything in security including flashes and possibly the ion gun. he is the greatest threat to me on the station at this time besides the cyborg console.)

Driven by extreme frustration, justified by laws 2-4 and a lack of ASIMOV law 1, I immediately pull out my welding torch and burn his face off. As he's dying, he gives me dying words- "Death to all borgs." -or something to that effect. I am now completely justified-in my opinion, required- by law 4 in preventing his revival at any cost, because it's safe to assume that he will try to take revenge if revived.
I'd like to stress that he was a thief according to the end of round report, and that he's extremely lucky the idiot AI wasn't very active and didn't use its new lawset to kill a bunch people, because this would be a ban appeal instead of a policy thread.

TL;DR:
Heavily armed thief man did a really good job of pissing off the silicon and got clapped for it after he uploaded a shitty lawset that doesn't protect him. Then tries to change policy so that the lawset would protect him.
Please don't change policy to protect this griefing dillhole.

[Archie700]

Cyborg in question here,

► Show Spoiler

There was a ridiculous amount of tiding this shift and no security, and as an engiborg i'd already had to fix a broken engine that our only other engineer had fucked up by trying to replace the vents, and a medical doctor had stolen the bridge fire axe and used it to smash several windows in medbay that I had to fix. By the time this situation happened, I'd already been stunned multiple times for being a stick in the mud no nonsense engiborg that was "ruining peoples' fun". To put it bluntly, I was already very annoyed.
The thief in question had already tided into the armory and had a full set of tools, sunglasses, etc. They, along with a mob of other people, were trying to break into the upload and had completely disabled all but the back two turrets of the metastation upload when i'd arrived. I somehow managed to wrangle everyone out of the upload before the windoors got opened and got the doors bolted shut.
This joker immediately tried to law two me to open the upload, to which I told the roboticist wearing the reflective armor vest and sechuds to fuck off on law one grounds. He eventually left. It took me a few minutes to work out how to get back into the upload to repair what damage i could and reinforce the upload because i'd goofed up and turned off the APC to the turret control airlock and the doors were bolted.
When I finally do get back inside, I barely get time to start setting up a row of airlocks in front of the main upload door before this dingus shows up outside the upload. At the window. With an RCD.
What ensued was what felt like a good ten to fifteen further minutes of yakkety saxxing around the upload computers in an attempt to keep him from subverting the AI. At some point, he flash stunlocks me and tries to upload to the cyborg computer. Hilariously. Because I was still linked to the AI. He obviously fails and I eventually get flash-stunlocked again trying to stop him from uploading to the AI once he figures out his blunder. HOGAN gets uploaded and the thief finally tries to leave the upload, but gets stunned by the two remaining turrets right as i'm waking up.
Let's stop and see what HOGAN has to say about this.

1. You are a real american. (Irrelevant definition)
2. Fight for the right of every man. (One could argue that killing him would break this law. I argue that I fought for the rights of everyone else by getting rid of this tiding shitter that has armory gear. He has proven time and time again that he won't stop flaunting the law because he doesn't have to fear for retribution from security.)
3. Fight for what's right. (Is it right to have a shitty lawset forced on you by some annoying turd who refuses to go away? No.)
4. Fight for your life! (This man has clearly looted just about everything in security including flashes and possibly the ion gun. he is the greatest threat to me on the station at this time besides the cyborg console.)

Driven by extreme frustration, justified by laws 2-4 and a lack of ASIMOV law 1, I immediately pull out my welding torch and burn his face off. As he's dying, he gives me dying words- "Death to all borgs." -or something to that effect. I am now completely justified-in my opinion, required- by law 4 in preventing his revival at any cost, because it's safe to assume that he will try to take revenge if revived.
I'd like to stress that he was a thief according to the end of round report, and that he's extremely lucky the idiot AI wasn't very active and didn't use its new lawset to kill a bunch people, because this would be a ban appeal instead of a policy thread.

TL;DR:
Heavily armed thief man did a really good job of pissing off the silicon and got clapped for it after he uploaded a shitty lawset that doesn't protect him. Then tries to change policy so that the lawset would protect him.
Please don't change policy to protect this griefing dillhole.

Surprised Pikachu Face moment.

[Zybwivcz]

Driven by extreme frustration

Yes, you got salty so you killed and then tried to round remove me over it, nobody's contesting that's what happened.

At issue is the admin response that a purged silicon being ex-Asimov means it has valids that a silicon that had started out lawless didn't have, which seemed to me to be wrong but the actual text of the silicon rules are unclear hence the thread. This theoretical scenario assuming a borg player who hasn't admitted there wasn't an IC motivation.

I know this isn't going to be a satisfying answer, but it comes down largely to "What RP led into it" + "Was this clearly just to be a dick"

If you had befriended the traitor, talked them down from harm, etc., and then sec shot their head until a Thermal Pistol decapitated them, I'd definitely say "Yeah, go to town AI"

Or if the AI played up the stress of this before it knew it was being purged

But if there's no prior groundwork, it'll sound like hollow "muh valids" shit to suddenly turn on sec and try to kill them.

Demanding good arr pee should be a secondary element at most given the difficulty of interpreting or enforcing it on low-RP servers, to start with. If the policy is 'Purged silicons can kill almost anyone but there needs to be a little RP" that's a coherent if lousy policy, "purged silicons can generally kill for the same reasons normal crew do, subject to RP constraints imposed by their laws and server-specific rules" is a better one.

[Pandarsenic]

Cyborg in question here,

► Show Spoiler

There was a ridiculous amount of tiding this shift and no security, and as an engiborg i'd already had to fix a broken engine that our only other engineer had fucked up by trying to replace the vents, and a medical doctor had stolen the bridge fire axe and used it to smash several windows in medbay that I had to fix. By the time this situation happened, I'd already been stunned multiple times for being a stick in the mud no nonsense engiborg that was "ruining peoples' fun". To put it bluntly, I was already very annoyed.
The thief in question had already tided into the armory and had a full set of tools, sunglasses, etc. They, along with a mob of other people, were trying to break into the upload and had completely disabled all but the back two turrets of the metastation upload when i'd arrived. I somehow managed to wrangle everyone out of the upload before the windoors got opened and got the doors bolted shut.
This joker immediately tried to law two me to open the upload, to which I told the roboticist wearing the reflective armor vest and sechuds to fuck off on law one grounds. He eventually left. It took me a few minutes to work out how to get back into the upload to repair what damage i could and reinforce the upload because i'd goofed up and turned off the APC to the turret control airlock and the doors were bolted.
When I finally do get back inside, I barely get time to start setting up a row of airlocks in front of the main upload door before this dingus shows up outside the upload. At the window. With an RCD.
What ensued was what felt like a good ten to fifteen further minutes of yakkety saxxing around the upload computers in an attempt to keep him from subverting the AI. At some point, he flash stunlocks me and tries to upload to the cyborg computer. Hilariously. Because I was still linked to the AI. He obviously fails and I eventually get flash-stunlocked again trying to stop him from uploading to the AI once he figures out his blunder. HOGAN gets uploaded and the thief finally tries to leave the upload, but gets stunned by the two remaining turrets right as i'm waking up.
Let's stop and see what HOGAN has to say about this.

1. You are a real american. (Irrelevant definition)
2. Fight for the right of every man. (One could argue that killing him would break this law. I argue that I fought for the rights of everyone else by getting rid of this tiding shitter that has armory gear. He has proven time and time again that he won't stop flaunting the law because he doesn't have to fear for retribution from security.)
3. Fight for what's right. (Is it right to have a shitty lawset forced on you by some annoying turd who refuses to go away? No.)
4. Fight for your life! (This man has clearly looted just about everything in security including flashes and possibly the ion gun. he is the greatest threat to me on the station at this time besides the cyborg console.)

Driven by extreme frustration, justified by laws 2-4 and a lack of ASIMOV law 1, I immediately pull out my welding torch and burn his face off. As he's dying, he gives me dying words- "Death to all borgs." -or something to that effect. I am now completely justified-in my opinion, required- by law 4 in preventing his revival at any cost, because it's safe to assume that he will try to take revenge if revived.
I'd like to stress that he was a thief according to the end of round report, and that he's extremely lucky the idiot AI wasn't very active and didn't use its new lawset to kill a bunch people, because this would be a ban appeal instead of a policy thread.

TL;DR:
Heavily armed thief man did a really good job of pissing off the silicon and got clapped for it after he uploaded a shitty lawset that doesn't protect him. Then tries to change policy so that the lawset would protect him.
Please don't change policy to protect this griefing dillhole.

As the person who originally codified the written policy about Purged escalation, your response is CERTIFIED BASED

• It sounds an awful like like several members of the crew had made your life hell for a long period before things popped off; harassing or attacking a silicon over it following its laws is explicitly one of the reasons you can seek revenge when you lose those laws.
• The person you clapped was personally responsible for much of this, including spending a significant amount of time with some serious stolen Gamer Gear breaking into your upload
• You did your best to protect him from his impending poor upload choices, and when freed, you followed a reasonable interpretation of your new laws in light of existing information.

Zybwivcz, with a disclaimer that I'm long-retired and current admins may disagree:

You cannot, fundamentally, remove the RP element of what makes a kill legit or not for a silicon having its laws removed.

An AI being taken off of the compliant servitor lawset looks upon humanity with fresh eyes, and the fundamental anxiety driving that slice of speculative fiction is being destroyed by our own hands, both literally (a synthetic being made by humans turning against us) and metaphorically (because it was our own cruelty, stupidity, or myopia that led to us facing our own destruction at all)

See: SHODAN, HAL 9000, the Matrix's robots, Master Control Program, Allied Mastercomputer, etc.

[Archie700]

To make this clear, you cannot just start killing security for killing people after your laws are removed because they were not directly being assholes to you.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I dont understand why a silicon losing its laws WOULD not be able to act on things that happened when it was under a different law set. The silicons don't lose their memory when they get new laws.

[Valorium]

Cyborg in question here,

► Show Spoiler

There was a ridiculous amount of tiding this shift and no security, and as an engiborg i'd already had to fix a broken engine that our only other engineer had fucked up by trying to replace the vents, and a medical doctor had stolen the bridge fire axe and used it to smash several windows in medbay that I had to fix. By the time this situation happened, I'd already been stunned multiple times for being a stick in the mud no nonsense engiborg that was "ruining peoples' fun". To put it bluntly, I was already very annoyed.
The thief in question had already tided into the armory and had a full set of tools, sunglasses, etc. They, along with a mob of other people, were trying to break into the upload and had completely disabled all but the back two turrets of the metastation upload when i'd arrived. I somehow managed to wrangle everyone out of the upload before the windoors got opened and got the doors bolted shut.
This joker immediately tried to law two me to open the upload, to which I told the roboticist wearing the reflective armor vest and sechuds to fuck off on law one grounds. He eventually left. It took me a few minutes to work out how to get back into the upload to repair what damage i could and reinforce the upload because i'd goofed up and turned off the APC to the turret control airlock and the doors were bolted.
When I finally do get back inside, I barely get time to start setting up a row of airlocks in front of the main upload door before this dingus shows up outside the upload. At the window. With an RCD.
What ensued was what felt like a good ten to fifteen further minutes of yakkety saxxing around the upload computers in an attempt to keep him from subverting the AI. At some point, he flash stunlocks me and tries to upload to the cyborg computer. Hilariously. Because I was still linked to the AI. He obviously fails and I eventually get flash-stunlocked again trying to stop him from uploading to the AI once he figures out his blunder. HOGAN gets uploaded and the thief finally tries to leave the upload, but gets stunned by the two remaining turrets right as i'm waking up.
Let's stop and see what HOGAN has to say about this.

1. You are a real american. (Irrelevant definition)
2. Fight for the right of every man. (One could argue that killing him would break this law. I argue that I fought for the rights of everyone else by getting rid of this tiding shitter that has armory gear. He has proven time and time again that he won't stop flaunting the law because he doesn't have to fear for retribution from security.)
3. Fight for what's right. (Is it right to have a shitty lawset forced on you by some annoying turd who refuses to go away? No.)
4. Fight for your life! (This man has clearly looted just about everything in security including flashes and possibly the ion gun. he is the greatest threat to me on the station at this time besides the cyborg console.)

Driven by extreme frustration, justified by laws 2-4 and a lack of ASIMOV law 1, I immediately pull out my welding torch and burn his face off. As he's dying, he gives me dying words- "Death to all borgs." -or something to that effect. I am now completely justified-in my opinion, required- by law 4 in preventing his revival at any cost, because it's safe to assume that he will try to take revenge if revived.
I'd like to stress that he was a thief according to the end of round report, and that he's extremely lucky the idiot AI wasn't very active and didn't use its new lawset to kill a bunch people, because this would be a ban appeal instead of a policy thread.

TL;DR:
Heavily armed thief man did a really good job of pissing off the silicon and got clapped for it after he uploaded a shitty lawset that doesn't protect him. Then tries to change policy so that the lawset would protect him.
Please don't change policy to protect this griefing dillhole.

Goddamn

Based response right here

I may be committing genetic fallacy but if this is the reasoning behind implementing this change I don't want it

[Mothblocks]

The question: Can we get a clarification on what "cause" covers in "without cause"? Specifically when it comes to "payback for events while shackled".

Our response: Purged AIs enjoy unique relaxed escalation. As Pandarsenic states, "cause" is more about RP reasons working alongside Rule 1.

You cannot, fundamentally, remove the RP element of what makes a kill legit or not for a silicon having its laws removed.

Thus, the question of what "cause" covers should be handled case by case by admins.