Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

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NamelessFairy
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Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by NamelessFairy » #635106

Bottom post of the previous page:

Currently rule 11 specifically covers "race, sex, gender, orientation or the like", this thread is focusing on the "or the like" section and is seeking one of two resolutions, either adding disability status to the list of covered things, or stating that it is covered by the "or the like" part of the rule if it is considered to be part of this rule.

This thread shouldn't need to much of an explanation but in short, I believe that bigotry directed at people based on physical or learning disability status, mental health conditions and people with protected impairments is already rule breaking and would like to see the general community consensus on this, get an official headmin stance and ideally get it put in writing. I think that bigotry focusing on disabilities is just as damaging as the other types of bigotry already specified in the rule and we should seek to eject its expression from the community as we do with the other types. Doing this would require wider consensus then a few admins personally considering it rule breaking and hence why I think this thread will be beneficial, as a ruling from headmins will allow more consistency between admin rulings on the topic.

I also want to bring a quick mention to soft filters. Last term a selection of slurs were added to the soft filter, I think that should headmins include disability status within the rule then the word list should be further expanded to include slurs focusing on people with disabilities.

TLDR Version: I'd like to see rule 11 expanded to include bigotry thats based on disability status as well as see commonplace disability slurs added to the word filter.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by oranges » #635501

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:55 am
oranges wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:50 am the server goes where the staff go
If that's the case, why is Policy Discussion even open to non-staff posting? Just to make it look like you care about our opinions even if you actually don't? So you're just going to do whatever you want regardless of counter-arguments presented or if it will piss off everyone, just because YOU personally want it?

Like, how am I supposed to even feel about this post? It's incredibly dismissive and dehumanizing towards regular players, you're straight up just saying you don't give a shit about what we think or feel here. Are you a literal psychopath? Because you seem to have zero empathy.
I'm telling you how it's been, how it will always be and you should be grateful honestly, because everyone else here is too much of a sociopath to tell you the truth

The staff, especially the admins, decide exactly what the server will do, the only way players have input in that realistically is to become admins and then influence the internal decision making.

I think everyone who participates in /tg/station should understand this fact pretty clearly, because the misconceptions only hurt feelings when things don't go the way people want.

like: do you really think anyone from the playerbase had any real input on the rule 11 change? Firstly, it only happened because mso got annoyed at some behaviour, and secondly, if it had been put to the community I expect it would have lost any poll. What about that kind of thing makes you think in any way you had the ability to influence the server?

I think if we're going to have any kind of real discussion we should be honest about exactly what it looks like.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Shadowflame909 » #635502

oranges wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:33 pm I'm telling you how it's been, how it will always be and you should be grateful honestly, because everyone else here is too much of a sociopath to tell you the truth

The staff, especially the admins, decide exactly what the server will do, the only way players have input in that realistically is to become admins and then influence the internal decision making.

I think everyone who participates in /tg/station should understand this fact pretty clearly, because the misconceptions only hurt feelings when things don't go the way people want.
Honesty without kindness is just brutality. Though, you didn't say anything rude or incorrigible. I just like the quote.

I think rule 11 should just be a sub-rule of rule 0 entirely. Banning dual meaning words like autism, or retarded just hurts the games "drama" factor. Paranoia makes you say mean things
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #635505

Do you remember when world police begged for "BAN SLURS" and said "no no retard wouldn't be banned don't be preposterous that's just slippery slope fallacy"?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Stickymayhem wrote:Imagine the sheer narcisssim required to genuinely believe you are this intelligent.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #635506

tg admins are regularly expected to execute common sense with policies like this yet quite a few of the admins seem to lack common sense at times and it leads to a bitter taste in the mouth of the face-fucked community additionally the fact you said you are using terminology adopted by the UK government makes my blood curdle do you expect us to adapt the speech laws of the United Kingdom now in order to not cause alarm and offence aboard the station, next you'll tell me we need PDA licenses...

I guess my take can be summed up best by this video (which I can't seem to embed using the bbvideo button thanks mso)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4FdZRkRswk
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #635513

Restricting speech is the opposite of progressivism.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Indie-ana Jones » #635538

In all seriousness I'd love to see a player poll about their feelings to something like this, and then show the results of that poll with the numbers filterable by the server used to vote.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #635540

Indie-ana Jones wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:34 am In all seriousness I'd love to see a player poll about their feelings to something like this, and then show the results of that poll with the numbers filterable by the server used to vote.
This would only work if you also added a filter by ckey so we could see all the Manuelets who visited all the other servers to try and skew the vote.
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USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST -- Stop the completely off topic random server tribalism.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Mothblocks » #635545

stop the off topic anti-manuel posting, it is not a convincing argument

go to your discords or whatever to complain about servers you dont like
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #635561

Shadowflame909 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:39 pm ~snip~

I think rule 11 should just be a sub-rule of rule 0 entirely. Banning dual meaning words like autism, or retarded just hurts the games "drama" factor. Paranoia makes you say mean things
GamerAndYeahMick wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:09 pm tg admins are regularly expected to execute common sense with policies like this yet quite a few of the admins seem to lack common sense at times and it leads to a bitter taste in the mouth of the face-fucked community ~snip~
Expecting to use common sense in both capacities may be a lot to ask in putting them both together, i call back to my opening point that /tg/ administrators have autonomy (in many ways, something to be praised) but it should be emphasised whether they are trained in the right way and are passing the right messages along in their role for discretion to trainee admins and community figures.
Mothblocks wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:46 am stop the off topic anti-manuel posting, it is not a convincing argument

go to your discords or whatever to complain about servers you dont like
Off Topic
Imitates-The-Lizards shouldn't have posted that there, not that it was worth the infraction.

Manuel is obviously growing bigger as to start overshadowing conversation because the demanded seperation of policy treatment isn't enough or particularly fair either-way of each RP level trying to overpower the other, like a dish with too many unbalanced ingredients of strong flavor. I am building a thread to address these issues in the "Site, Forums, And Wiki" subforum with a proposition.

Spoiler:
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by cacogen » #635571

Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:47 am Now let's take 'schizo'. If we ban schizo it prevents the exclusion and discomfort of people who have schizophrenia (a much smaller group so we get less consequential utility out of banning it) and there is a significant overlap between people who casually use schizo, and reasonable functioning members of the community. Similar arguments can be made for retarded. It's too casually used and that casual use is tied to a population of people that has less overlap with other negative groups. CAN we ban it? Yes, most of these people (unlike the aforementioned nazis etc) will change their behaviour because they're simply more conscientious, but enforcement also comes with downsides.
All I'm getting from this post is you don't like the /pol/tards who use nigger but are fine with people who use retard and schizo. But the argument for hard filtering them is the same. An unknown portion of the server is part of the groups these terms apply to. They're not white, they have a disability, or they have some kind of mental health problem. And the use of these words may make them feel uncomfortable or "othered" while on the server. But because you find utility in the use of words like retard and schizo, and don't see a correlation between the people using them and the /pol/tards who you want to win some victory against, you're happy not to do anything about them.
Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:47 amsaying you're an asshole to someone with diagnosed narcissism is discriminatory
This is very funny.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by oranges » #635669

I dont' know why my post was deleted, but headadmins, if you include this, how would you justify to not including "cracker" to the filter?

It's a derogatory term to white people.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #635718

oranges wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:26 am I dont' know why my post was deleted, but headadmins, if you include this, how would you justify to not including "cracker" to the filter?

It's a derogatory term to white people.
This is covered in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31230

As you can see, with a post from MSO themselves, it's not based on an objective standard - it's based on "common sense".

If it was based on the objective standard of "do not be discriminatory or use discriminatory language", then "cracker" would have been banned without hesitation, because even if it does not have the same "weight" behind it as people put in that thread, it is used with the same intent of trying to be discriminatory against white people. Whether or not it actually accomplishes that is a separate matter. However, then you run in to the issue of "Well, now we have to ban literally everything discriminatory", which is obviously waaaay too broad, as sticky pointed out, we'd have to ban effectively every insult to include ridiculous things like "pom" or "asshole". Or, in my opinion, things like what this thread is calling for, "dumb" and "retarded".

So it isn't based on that standard, it's based on literally just whatever the headmins, or MSO apparently, decide is ((("""common sense"""))), which is really a shorthand in this case for "whatever I feel is sufficiently discriminatory based on the current political hivemind climate to warrant action.".

There are no standards or principles to be found here, whatever words are explicitly banned are LITERALLY just up to the 4 people at the top's personal feelings.

If it were to be based on logic or reasoning, there would be NO banned words, because the purpose of the admin team is to prevent people from murderboning or harassing each other and to create fun in-game events, not to be the thought police. If a player was found to be following around another player they knew was black ooc and spamming "nigger" at them everywhere they went in-game, they would obviously be banned under rule 1, or for just general harassment. So rule 11 is completely 100% unnecessary in the first place.

If you want things to be decided based on just whatever the staff team wants oranges, then this situation is exactly what you get.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Stickymayhem » #635720

oranges wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:26 am I dont' know why my post was deleted, but headadmins, if you include this, how would you justify to not including "cracker" to the filter?

It's a derogatory term to white people.
Already explained this keep up cracker

The line is arbitrary and always has been, there's no utility in banning cracker, or bitch, or Karen, or moron
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Tearling » #635822

Ghilker wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:49 pm and the slope is getting slipperier
This. When they started enforcing the N word I was all for it, and I still am. When people said slippery slope I thought they were dumb. Now I realize they were actually half-right.
oranges wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:33 pm The staff, especially the admins, decide exactly what the server will do, the only way players have input in that realistically is to become admins and then influence the internal decision making.

I think everyone who participates in /tg/station should understand this fact pretty clearly, because the misconceptions only hurt feelings when things don't go the way people want.

like: do you really think anyone from the playerbase had any real input on the rule 11 change? Firstly, it only happened because mso got annoyed at some behaviour, and secondly, if it had been put to the community I expect it would have lost any poll. What about that kind of thing makes you think in any way you had the ability to influence the server?

I think if we're going to have any kind of real discussion we should be honest about exactly what it looks like.
The best roleplay on tgstation occurs on policy discussion. We're all acting like we have a voice in matters the admins have already decided on.
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Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Stickymayhem » #635853

>person makes suggestion

SLIPPERY SLOPE TG IS ALREADY DEAD IT'S ALL OVER AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Really goes to show how meaningful the cries of slippery slope actually are, you people will cry slippery slope if it rains on a 1 degree incline
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by cacogen » #635973

Tearling wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:51 pm The best roleplay on tgstation occurs on policy discussion. We're all acting like we have a voice in matters the admins have already decided on.
They pick the opinion they like the most and pretend they always thought this way, so in that way these threads do matter
Stickymayhem wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:30 am Really goes to show how meaningful the cries of slippery slope actually are, you people will cry slippery slope if it rains on a 1 degree incline
It's ableist to think that couldn't slip at least one person
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Stickymayhem » #635976

cacogen wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:47 pm
Tearling wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:51 pm The best roleplay on tgstation occurs on policy discussion. We're all acting like we have a voice in matters the admins have already decided on.
They pick the opinion they like the most and pretend they always thought this way, so in that way these threads do matter
Stickymayhem wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:30 am Really goes to show how meaningful the cries of slippery slope actually are, you people will cry slippery slope if it rains on a 1 degree incline
It's ableist to think that couldn't slip at least one person
It's ableist to dunk on you in a public forum instead of directing you towards a treatment center but I do that too
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Mothblocks » #636026

We're going to go through with expanding rule 11.

Mothblocks - Agree with Hulk, who has been actively asking people not to throw around the word "schizo" lightly as a bigoted insult on Discord, and whom I would very much like to continue doing that work with a more protected Rule 11. The replies in this thread have not provided any convincing argument that could not just as easily be applied to rule 11 as a whole (as in, whose arguments are identical to those of "what if they end up banning the word bitch"). The several people in both this thread and in peanuts just posting epic clapbacks in the form of random anti-Manuel just calling those in favor retarded have done nothing but erode faith in opposition of an idea that I lean in favor of. Other posts seemingly just against rule 11 altogether have also not been convincing at all, as I've found rule 11 to be probably the best addition we've seen in terms of policy in a long time.

MrMelbert - Agree with expanding Rule 11, as I believe it's largely covered under rule 1 anyways, and provides a better basis to point a finger at when delivering rulings. Ultimately I don't imagine much will actually change. It's important to note that, as per rule 11, using words associated is still *fine*. You can call your engineering projects "Autism Forts" still under the expanded rules, as it's not being used to directly insult or demean someone. (emphasis added by me, Mothblocks)

Timberpoes - Disagree with expanding Rule 11. This slides Rule 11 towards policing politically incorrect language over genuine honest-to-God bigotry. Nothing stops the admin team from dealing with people who cross the line on their use of lanugage, except justifying it under Rule 1. I agree with an overarching goal of making SS13 a place anyone can come to play, but feel this is simply a step too far towards banning the use of slurs in general for me to be able to support it.

---

Policy discussions are voted on based on informed vote, and so expanding rule 11 wins.

This has been done in the form of adding the bold text to rule 11:
Intentionally seeking to demean others due to their actual or perceived race, sex, gender, disability, orientation or the like is not tolerated.
This is not currently coming with any chat filters, hard or soft. Enforcement of this will ideally be ironed out over time as we work with admins on what this entails, as rule 11 is not a simple word ban.

---

The Hulk post in question, for posterity:
Hulkamania wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:01 am I've been an advocate for not using the term "schizo" to denote "anyone who is acting uncharacteristic or slightly paranoid" because it really doesn't help out people who suffer from the disorder. Just because someone makes a rambling mess of conspiracy theories about admins or coders doesn't mean they're a legitimately disturbed individual, and being around people who constantly and casually use that term can have real impact on people who already have it pretty bad.

For another less prevalent example, a good friend of mine left the community after their mother developed cancer and passed away. Every single time someone referred to something they didn't like as "cancer" or "cancerous" it constantly reminded them of the issue, to the point where they left the community and didn't return for quite a while.

I'm not a big fan of the word filter for various reasons, but part of which is that the existence of the word filter means that now and forevermore words will be argued to be added/removed from it and it creates a long term annoyance. I'm also not a fan of censoring any specific words, but as we've been using rule 11 it's never really about specific words but the context they're used in. I do not see how covering disabilities would be any different. Is it different than how the community was founded? Yes. But old veterans bitching about not being able to use their favorite gamer words amounts to little more than being unable to adapt to the changes that the server has been heading towards for years now. This sort of change wouldn't be some radical shift in ideals, but more another alignment towards how the community is already heading.

Would it spark 17 more TG IS DEAD THIS IS WHY I DON'T PLAY TG ANYMORE threads on digg? Yes. Has that ever mattered even a slight amount? No. Were this to be enacted your entire experience would change by "being slightly more considerate to people around you" and considering rule 1 is the foundational rule through which all others are derived, I fail to see how that's anything but good.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Mothblocks » #636029

As an addendum for clarity, here are some bullet points:

1. At this time, we are choosing not to go as far as to say all uses of the word "retard"/"retarded" are bigoted, just hurtful, but being hurtful isn't what rule 11 is about. However, excessive harassment/spew like this (such as repeatedly demeaning someone to the point where you're being a dick more than you are roleplaying as a rude character) will continue to be enforcable under rule 1. There are no changes there, and we intend to defend admins who act on that.
2. As rule 11 is not a word ban, "autism"/"autistic" are not banned, or even placed under any filter yet. "Autism fort" is fine, calling people autistic as a means to demean them is not. For example, we want to highlight that calling someone an "autistic retard" will almost certainly be considered a discriminatory act. Context is key.
3. As one of the ultimate goals was to defend the existing practice of discouraging the use of "schizo" as a synonym for "paranoid", we will be continuing to defend admins that rule as such. "Schizo" or similar to refer to the in-game schizophrenia, or anything of that nature, is completely fine.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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