Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

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Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by NamelessFairy » #635106

Currently rule 11 specifically covers "race, sex, gender, orientation or the like", this thread is focusing on the "or the like" section and is seeking one of two resolutions, either adding disability status to the list of covered things, or stating that it is covered by the "or the like" part of the rule if it is considered to be part of this rule.

This thread shouldn't need to much of an explanation but in short, I believe that bigotry directed at people based on physical or learning disability status, mental health conditions and people with protected impairments is already rule breaking and would like to see the general community consensus on this, get an official headmin stance and ideally get it put in writing. I think that bigotry focusing on disabilities is just as damaging as the other types of bigotry already specified in the rule and we should seek to eject its expression from the community as we do with the other types. Doing this would require wider consensus then a few admins personally considering it rule breaking and hence why I think this thread will be beneficial, as a ruling from headmins will allow more consistency between admin rulings on the topic.

I also want to bring a quick mention to soft filters. Last term a selection of slurs were added to the soft filter, I think that should headmins include disability status within the rule then the word list should be further expanded to include slurs focusing on people with disabilities.

TLDR Version: I'd like to see rule 11 expanded to include bigotry thats based on disability status as well as see commonplace disability slurs added to the word filter.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by iamgoofball » #635113

I've asked for this before and been shot down, but maybe we can get it through this term.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by PKPenguin321 » #635114

what specifically is this asking for. dont say "retarded"? dont say "autistic"? can engineers still build their autism forts? dont call the guy who's way too angry in ooc a "schizo"?
you state "bigotry directed at people based on physical or mental disability status" but i have not seen that in my eight years here (where someone learns that another user has a mental disability and then specifically mocks them for it), so what is it you actually want done here, specifically?
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by NamelessFairy » #635125

PKPenguin321 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:08 pm what specifically is this asking for. dont say "retarded"? dont say "autistic"? can engineers still build their autism forts? dont call the guy who's way too angry in ooc a "schizo"?
you state "bigotry directed at people based on physical or mental disability status" but i have not seen that in my eight years here (where someone learns that another user has a mental disability and then specifically mocks them for it), so what is it you actually want done here, specifically?
I'm seeking the same standards of enforcement as described by MSO regarding rule 11 for derogatory terms describing disabilities and those with disabilities. So to use your examples, we don't ban words (excluding the N word) so saying "autistic" for example would be fine in a vacuum. I'd say the jury is out on your engineering example and would like to see what headmins say about that, I'm somewhat neutral given it has a non-bigoted context but I can certainly see the potential issue and would be comfortable with aiding a reduction in its usage should the headmins feel that way. Your third example of calling someone in OOC a slur would be a violation under rule 11 using MSOs example of "x is a [insert slur]"
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Pandarsenic » #635132

Anything you would be called on Terry for causing a plasma fire in your own workplace or beating someone in a fight is probably a slur. Easy.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by terranaut » #635139

whats the point of this? if someone is harassing someone over a mental disability thats covered under "dont be a dick"
all this is going to do is cause people to get banned for saying "you're retarded" if someone runs through a plasma leak with a lit cigarette
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Cobby » #635141

The autism surrounding not saying no no words is retarded and to schizo freak out over such an issue suggests you have some issues you (or whoever wants this beyond actually harassing a user) needs to work out otherwise you’re being mental
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by iwishforducks » #635143

i like the term "autism fort" because i cant think of anything that better describes it, but this is my first time ever actually saying "autism fort" in a loooong time. getting rid of retarded is easy because even with the dumbest forum posters i'm able to hold my breath about it. i think in general banning these words will make the community overall just more inviting
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Dankasaur » #635145

NamelessFairy wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:04 pm This thread shouldn't need to much of an explanation but in short, I believe that bigotry directed at people based on physical or learning disability status, mental health conditions and people with protected impairments is already rule breaking and would like to see the general community consensus on this, get an official headmin stance and ideally get it put in writing.

TLDR Version: I'd like to see rule 11 expanded to include bigotry thats based on disability status as well as see commonplace disability slurs added to the word filter.
Wouldn't this just be a blanket ban on any direct insults as a majority of even the most common insults like idiot or dummy are defined by being learning impaired or based on other statuses and conditions?

I fail to see how this is anything but a slippery slope as any real targeted harassment should just be ahelped and handled under Rule 1.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Farquaar » #635146

Serious question: Where's the end game here? How sensitive do we have to be before we decide that enough is enough? How much language policing do we have to burden our community with before it can be truly inclusive™?
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by sinfulbliss » #635148

I’ve never seen someone make fun of another player for actually having a disability, mainly since disabilities aren’t a feature in the game aside from maybe the wheelchair-bound trait. Its usage is always as a blanket insult, or sometimes not even directed at someone (I.e. autism fortress). So if you wanted this to have any concrete impact at all, all the disability-related slur usage would need to be treated like the N-word (saying it to someone is actionable, period).

If this is pushed through then these words should also be added to the soft-filter unless there is consensus that they are okay to say. If calling someone a retard will merit a bwoink, then that word should absolutely be added to the soft filter.

Even though in the past policy has tried to get away from “tabulating banned words” and using the common sense approach of “don’t be racist,” which is easy to follow, this is much broader in scope and honestly it might be worth pinning it down to the actual offensive words you have in mind. I don’t think admins all agree that calling someone a retard is bwoinkable - and if the ruling is just “disability-related slurs are covered under rule 11,” then it’s just rolling the admin dice every time someone says it. Enforcement should try to be uniform so players know what is and isn’t allowed.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Cobby » #635151

I’ve really wanted to invite my autistic friend but due to the prolific use of the word autism I’m really afraid of them being turned down from the game despite it being marketed as an “autistic atmos sim”.

I also wanted to invite my stupid friend but in this current slur-filled cesspool that admins simply aren’t doing enough on, I can’t even imagine him coming on and not hearing the word “stupid” in a derogatory context within the course of a single round.

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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #635152

I'm opposed. The admin team is here to prevent griefing, not to be the thought police. You really want to issue bans every time someone says they're going to spend their shift working on an atmos autism project?

Like, that isn't even rude or derogatory, half the time it's actually complimentary because people are appreciating what the players come up with. Saying something is "autistic" isn't necessarily an insult, and in fact I almost never see it being used as one, just being used to mean a project is time-consuming or detail-oriented.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #635172

this is how you get people getting banned by brokebrain mentally ill sex degenerates for describing things as "lame" or "dumb"

if you're so fucking fragile that someone calling you a sperg causes you to break down and demand he be removed from the game then maybe your fucking therapy isn't working, you dentskull
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Blase » #635173

On TG you're not going to be harassed for having a mental disability. You're going to be praised as autistic for making a shielded Tesla SM, or called retarded for making engineering clean up your second plasmafire in toxins that round.

This policy thread comes off as a shitpost that the author doesn't realize is one.

P.S. I don't like to use the stupid fucking cards. But I am diagnosed with autism. I have never been targeted, and I don't mind being called retarded or autistic.
Last edited by Blase on Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by wesoda25 » #635176

This thread is very corporate and isn’t moving at all. I’d like to hear from people affected by this sort of thing and what they think about it.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Sylphet » #635178

Do it.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #635184

As someone with autism themselves (shocking, I know, I feel like that's probably 90% of us here) I don't know if I see much point. In my entire year on TG in particular and 2 years on this game as a whole, I can only say I've had someone try to use retard or autist as a targetted slur once, and they didn't even know. They were just malding and went "Oh you must be autistic and this your retard moment".

At which point...I feel like it already falls under Rule 1. I don't think it needs a blanket ban under Rule 11, when we could instead expand Rule 1 to cover cases like that, simply because it's not THAT prevalent. (Then again, given that using it targettedly is, itself, bigotry, would you really even be expanding anything?)

You're not going to stick someone in a full-body cast for a broken wrist, when an arm cast will be perfectly fine.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #635186

I can buy that in the far future, we managed to get over human on human racism, especially with the introduction of new species to hate. I don't think I could foresee a universe where people stop calling people in wheelchairs cripples.

Or maybe is this focused on OCC, or perhaps you were only referring to mentally handicapped people.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Boot » #635188

wesoda25 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:15 pm This thread is very corporate and isn’t moving at all. I’d like to hear from people affected by this sort of thing and what they think about it.
I've played a load of hardcore random and people using my disabilities to their advantage is a big part of it. Whether it is sec breaking my glasses or a grey snaggin the wheelchair. To more broad things that we typically don't see as disabilities like Sec taking my drug stash when I've been addicted. While this did make the round harder for me I did enjoy it for the challenge it presented.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Ghilker » #635196

and the slope is getting slipperier
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by cybersaber101 » #635225

This sounds so vague I have zero clue what in entails at all besides maybe banned 'autism' and 'retard' ?
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #635272

cacogen wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:07 am actually add the words retard and schizo to the hard filter or forever be known as hypocrites
Stickymayhem wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:53 pm Bye retard
"when i use bigoted slurs it's okay"
Err, schizo has actual real ingame use though. You can actually get schizophrenia ingame, and I've called people who have it as schizos as medical staff.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by JusticeGoat » #635283

I really don't want to be asked to warn people or see anyone kicked from the community who say mild stuff like "retarded", "dumb", "autist" It has not been a problem until people started getting upset on others behalf's.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by cacogen » #635285

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:15 am
cacogen wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:07 am actually add the words retard and schizo to the hard filter or forever be known as hypocrites
Stickymayhem wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:53 pm Bye retard
"when i use bigoted slurs it's okay"
Err, schizo has actual real ingame use though. You can actually get schizophrenia ingame, and I've called people who have it as schizos as medical staff.
What a retarded thing to say. There's a difference between describing someone with schizophrenia as schizophrenic, and calling them a schizo. Next you'll be insisting you see no difference between the words transgender and tranny.
JusticeGoat wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:17 am I really don't want to be asked to warn people or see anyone kicked from the community who say mild stuff like "retarded", "dumb", "autist" It has not been a problem until people started getting upset on others behalf's.
Either it's all okay or none of it is. You don't have to warn or ban anyone. Just add slurs for people with disabilities ("dumb" doesn't count, obviously) to the hard filter, and you won't have to worry about it. Or alternatively, remove all the slurs from the hard filter (but no Terry player should have all that power).
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Blase » #635300

cacogen wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:35 am
Either it's all okay or none of it is. You don't have to warn or ban anyone. Just add slurs for people with disabilities ("dumb" doesn't count, obviously) to the hard filter, and you won't have to worry about it. Or alternatively, remove all the slurs from the hard filter (but no Terry player should have all that power).
This is a false dichotomy. There is a difference between saying a racial slur to someone with dark skin, and calling someone who has kept a player trapped in cryogenics for 10 minutes retarded. This slope is incredibly slippery and I don't want to see where it leads.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #635303

cacogen wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:35 amEither it's all okay or none of it is. You don't have to warn or ban anyone. Just add slurs for people with disabilities ("dumb" doesn't count, obviously) to the hard filter, and you won't have to worry about it. Or alternatively, remove all the slurs from the hard filter (but no Terry player should have all that power).
It's all okay. Filters and banned mean words list never should have been added in the first place. The admin team exists to prevent people from griefing, not to be the thought police. This very thread is one of the core reasons why that is the case - because there is never ever an end point to the censorship. We will have a new thread on here every 2-3 months about what else needs to be filtered out now until either everyone quits because they're sick of having to act like vox ai does when trying to type anything that isn't "suit sensors to maximum please" or the filters are removed.

It's going to be amusing when in 2 weeks everyone starts making keybinds or copypastas that instead of just saying "retard" to someone who does something dumb, they say "You are acting in a manner that makes me assume your intelligence has been stunted." though, so I'm almost looking forward to this.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #635311

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:21 pm
NamelessFairy wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:04 pmI believe that bigotry directed at people based on physical or learning disability status, mental health conditions and people with protected impairments is already rule breaking
It's all okay. Filters and banned mean words list never should have been added in the first place. The admin team exists to prevent people from griefing, not to be the thought police. ~snip~

It's going to be amusing when in 2 weeks everyone starts making keybinds or copypastas that instead of just saying "retard" to someone who does something dumb, they say "You are acting in a manner that makes me assume your intelligence has been stunted." though, so I'm almost looking forward to this.

Looking over your shoulder constantly at 'staffwho' isn't useful to figure out policy on what words are allowed in a current round if administrators are offered unlimited autonomy to choose words they know (and discernably ignore/punish words they dont) akin to a cool uncle/strict-aunt. I side towards a word-policing system as a matter of accountability and consistency, even if i don't particularly like the idea.

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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by massa » #635322

I'm going to put a bounty on maxcapping/releasing aids on manuel at this rate
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by JusticeGoat » #635358

I am a little bit perplexed why we are letting one group of players who never interact with the other three servers affect some banned word list. We went many years without needing a filter, if people where dicks we just gave them the boot and that was that. I am against adding to "banned words" You all need to toughen up a bit and understand people who say gamer words will get told to knock it off or they will be removed, i rather have the human interaction than some script.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by cacogen » #635388

Blase wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:38 am
cacogen wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:35 am
Either it's all okay or none of it is. You don't have to warn or ban anyone. Just add slurs for people with disabilities ("dumb" doesn't count, obviously) to the hard filter, and you won't have to worry about it. Or alternatively, remove all the slurs from the hard filter (but no Terry player should have all that power).
This is a false dichotomy. There is a difference between saying a racial slur to someone with dark skin, and calling someone who has kept a player trapped in cryogenics for 10 minutes retarded. This slope is incredibly slippery and I don't want to see where it leads.
No, it’s not. The words were added to the hard filter to prevent all use, bigoted or not. To only do this with certain slurs indicates you only care about bigotry towards certain groups of people.

It’s also delicious irony when you have somebody like Stickymayhem who, according to him at least, was instrumental in certain slurs being added to the hard filter, then turn around and call players retards presumably just to show people what an edgy cunt he is.

Clearly he feels that using slurs isn’t tantamount to bigotry, but only when they apply to certain groups and not others. The irony being the groups whose slurs he feels comfortable using being more marginalised, powerless and vulnerable in society.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Hulkamania » #635405

I've been an advocate for not using the term "schizo" to denote "anyone who is acting uncharacteristic or slightly paranoid" because it really doesn't help out people who suffer from the disorder. Just because someone makes a rambling mess of conspiracy theories about admins or coders doesn't mean they're a legitimately disturbed individual, and being around people who constantly and casually use that term can have real impact on people who already have it pretty bad.

For another less prevalent example, a good friend of mine left the community after their mother developed cancer and passed away. Every single time someone referred to something they didn't like as "cancer" or "cancerous" it constantly reminded them of the issue, to the point where they left the community and didn't return for quite a while.

I'm not a big fan of the word filter for various reasons, but part of which is that the existence of the word filter means that now and forevermore words will be argued to be added/removed from it and it creates a long term annoyance. I'm also not a fan of censoring any specific words, but as we've been using rule 11 it's never really about specific words but the context they're used in. I do not see how covering disabilities would be any different. Is it different than how the community was founded? Yes. But old veterans bitching about not being able to use their favorite gamer words amounts to little more than being unable to adapt to the changes that the server has been heading towards for years now. This sort of change wouldn't be some radical shift in ideals, but more another alignment towards how the community is already heading.

Would it spark 17 more TG IS DEAD THIS IS WHY I DON'T PLAY TG ANYMORE threads on digg? Yes. Has that ever mattered even a slight amount? No. Were this to be enacted your entire experience would change by "being slightly more considerate to people around you" and considering rule 1 is the foundational rule through which all others are derived, I fail to see how that's anything but good.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #635406

so we going to remove romerol tumors from the game too?
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by cybersaber101 » #635408

Hulkamania wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:01 am -snip-
I'm just utterly confused on what counts man, besides the obvious...
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by BeeSting12 » #635410

This is already covered under rule 1. If someone is being harassed in an OOC sense because of their physical/mental illnesses then they would obviously eat a ban. The IC use of the word is fairly harmless in my opinion, people use retarded as a synonym for exceptionally dumb/stupid, and IC disability based bigotry is an IC issue in my opinion, ie. being rude to someone b/c they're blind or in a wheelchair, stealing wheelchairs, whatever. I feel like this is a solution searching for a problem as I noticed that someone who is actually autistic said earlier in the thread that they've only seen it as an issue one time in the two years they've played here.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by iamgoofball » #635417

BeeSting12 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:31 am This is already covered under rule 1
if it's covered by rule 1 then why didn't you enforce it while you were an admin for so long
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Boot » #635419

Hulkamania wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:01 am -snip-
If filtering a word, soft or hard, would cause even one person to not leave because they arn't being bothered by the flippant use of that word would you be for it no matter the insult?

Calling people cancer or retarded is pretty mundane. I also really like how "gamer word" has morphed over less then a year from nigger to retarded, someone set the clock to check what the excuse the "well its only a gamer word so who cares" argument will be wheeled out to censor come election night.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by BeeSting12 » #635423

iamgoofball wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:19 am
BeeSting12 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:31 am This is already covered under rule 1
if it's covered by rule 1 then why didn't you enforce it while you were an admin for so long
I never came across any case of OOC disability based harassment where the victim was bothered by it and brought it to my attention. If someone was genuinely being harassed for their mental/physical illnesses on a platform I could ban from, I would have dealt with the issue appropriately. I have definitely given out harassment bans in the past although not specifically related to bigotry, so I'm not sure why you'd think that this isn't something I would've enforced had I come across it. On the flip side, I am not going to interrupt banter between a couple players if neither of them are offended by it. Note that I'm excluding stuff like calling someone retarded as a synonym for stupid, saying shit like autism fort, etc. I don't believe that should be covered under the new rule 11.
Boot wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:32 am
Hulkamania wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:01 am -snip-
If filtering a word, soft or hard, would cause even one person to not leave because they arn't being bothered by the flippant use of that word would you be for it no matter the insult?

Calling people cancer or retarded is pretty mundane. I also really like how "gamer word" has morphed over less then a year from nigger to retarded, someone set the clock to check what the excuse the "well its only a gamer word so who cares" argument will be wheeled out to censor come election night.
welcome to the slippery slope we introduced with the word filter lol
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #635436

Hulkamania wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:01 amI'm also not a fan of censoring any specific words, but as we've been using rule 11 it's never really about specific words but the context they're used in. I do not see how covering disabilities would be any different.
It would be different because words like "autistic" and "retarded" are never used as genuine ooc insults (at least not on Sybil where I play). Instead, 99% of the time autistic is used as an actual compliment, and retarded refers to a specific action a player did that was dumb, like running head first into a plasma fire or something. Its almost never used to genuinely target the player ooc.
Is it different than how the community was founded? Yes. But old veterans bitching about not being able to use their favorite gamer words amounts to little more than being unable to adapt to the changes that the server has been heading towards for years now. This sort of change wouldn't be some radical shift in ideals, but more another alignment towards how the community is already heading.
This is terrible for several reasons. Firstly, you're flat out saying you just don't care about the veterans opinions. Secondly, you're making this weird claim of consensus, like "this is what the server really wants, its headed in this direction, deal with it." Okay well, you already said you don't care about what the veterans want and that they don't want this. So who is pushing for this change? Only the staff team and new players? Well, no, new players dont post in policy discussion threads, and even if you want to talk about what they want even if they don't post here, then we have to ask whether it makes more sense to cater to the veterans or the new players on this one, and the answer to that is obviously the veterans, because they have proven themselves to be the people here for the long run who will have to live with this policy, and staff seems to be 50/50 in this thread. So very few if any people support this change.
Would it spark 17 more TG IS DEAD THIS IS WHY I DON'T PLAY TG ANYMORE threads on digg? Yes. Has that ever mattered even a slight amount? No. Were this to be enacted your entire experience would change by "being slightly more considerate to people around you" and considering rule 1 is the foundational rule through which all others are derived, I fail to see how that's anything but good.
This is also terrible. Saying we can do a change just because we can ignore the consequences of doing so is NOT a good argument, in fact, you're arguing that this will be an unpopular and hated decision that will make a lot of people angry. So like, it cant be that you dont realize this, since you know that it will cause rage threads, you're just saying that you don't care.

If you're someone who just doesn't care about what the players actually want, you should step down from your staff position because you're detached from and dehumanizing the playerbase, and just advocating for whatever policies you personally want because you dont like no-no words, rather than if its actually good for the server as a whole.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by oranges » #635441

the server goes where the staff go
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #635442

oranges wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:50 am the server goes where the staff go
If that's the case, why is Policy Discussion even open to non-staff posting? Just to make it look like you care about our opinions even if you actually don't? So you're just going to do whatever you want regardless of counter-arguments presented or if it will piss off everyone, just because YOU personally want it?

Like, how am I supposed to even feel about this post? It's incredibly dismissive and dehumanizing towards regular players, you're straight up just saying you don't give a shit about what we think or feel here. Are you a literal psychopath? Because you seem to have zero empathy.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by PKPenguin321 » #635445

Hulkamania wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:01 am I've been an advocate for not using the term "schizo" to denote "anyone who is acting uncharacteristic or slightly paranoid" because it really doesn't help out people who suffer from the disorder. Just because someone makes a rambling mess of conspiracy theories about admins or coders doesn't mean they're a legitimately disturbed individual, and being around people who constantly and casually use that term can have real impact on people who already have it pretty bad.

For another less prevalent example, a good friend of mine left the community after their mother developed cancer and passed away. Every single time someone referred to something they didn't like as "cancer" or "cancerous" it constantly reminded them of the issue, to the point where they left the community and didn't return for quite a while.

I'm not a big fan of the word filter for various reasons, but part of which is that the existence of the word filter means that now and forevermore words will be argued to be added/removed from it and it creates a long term annoyance. I'm also not a fan of censoring any specific words, but as we've been using rule 11 it's never really about specific words but the context they're used in. I do not see how covering disabilities would be any different. Is it different than how the community was founded? Yes. But old veterans bitching about not being able to use their favorite gamer words amounts to little more than being unable to adapt to the changes that the server has been heading towards for years now. This sort of change wouldn't be some radical shift in ideals, but more another alignment towards how the community is already heading.
Apparently this server operates on common sense which is why "cracker" is allowed, but the n-word isn't. Anyone with common sense can tell that actually having schizophrenia is a terrible thing, and that calling someone who is mad a schizo does not actually mean that they have that terrible condition. (In fact, the condition being terrible is 100% the reason that it became an insult in the first place; insults are inherently from terrible or unsightly things, such as "fuck" which once meant "rape," or "cancer" as you mentioned.) That aside, morons on tik tok that glorify schizophrenia and other mental conditions do 10000000000000000000x more damage to people with schizophrenia than the couple hundred that might see it used in OOC on a tiny spaceman game. Any social benefit that schizophrenics would realistically gain from banning the word schizo (that is, literally none at all, 0) is outweighed by the annoyance of not having a convenient, connotationally-appropriate word to throw at angry people anymore (and even if that annoyance has very little value, even 0.00001, it's still greater than 0).

Not to be insensitive to your friend, but don't you think that it may have been that situation that caused him or at least influenced him to step away from things? If that same situation happened to me, I would for sure take a break from much more than just funny spaceman game. If your mother was hit by a bus would you insist on coderbus/adminbus etc. being renamed and ban the word bus? If something horrible happens to you that impacts your ability to enjoy every day life then my heart genuinely goes out to you, but you need to move on if that's the case (and potentially seek therapy and support), not impart your grief onto everyone else in the community.

Lastly, saying that you disagree with the system as it is but that it should be enforced harder simply because it is now the status quo is a very confusing stance to take. "You think I should join the Klan? Well, I don't really like the fascist regime that's taking over my country, but... This sort of change wouldn't be some radical shift in ideals, but more another alignment towards how the community is already heading, so I guess I will."
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by cacogen » #635452

PKPenguin321 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:18 am Apparently this server operates on common sense which is why "cracker" is allowed, but the n-word isn't. Anyone with common sense can tell that actually having schizophrenia is a terrible thing, and that calling someone who is mad a schizo does not actually mean that they have that terrible condition.
Calling somebody without schizophrenia a schizo is no different to calling a white person a nigger. Either you hard filter the word because it can be used to promote bigotry, its use as an insult implies there's something wrong with being a member of the group it applies to and makes light of/degrades that group and it makes that group's members feel uncomfortable/unsafe around people who use it or you remove all slurs from the hard filter and allow rule 11 to take care of instances of bigotry.

Calling somebody a cracker is different because white people aren't marginalised and the word carries no weight to it. It would look incredibly fucking silly to add that to the slur filter.

Also some edgelord in polcon pinged me over this post but seemed unable to express their problems with it. Still looking forward to their explanation.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Stickymayhem » #635454

cacogen wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:13 am
PKPenguin321 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:18 am Apparently this server operates on common sense which is why "cracker" is allowed, but the n-word isn't. Anyone with common sense can tell that actually having schizophrenia is a terrible thing, and that calling someone who is mad a schizo does not actually mean that they have that terrible condition.
Calling somebody without schizophrenia a schizo is no different to calling a white person a nigger. Either you hard filter the word because it can be used to promote bigotry, its use as an insult implies there's something wrong with being a member of the group it applies to and makes light of/degrades that group and it makes that group's members feel uncomfortable/unsafe around people who use it or you remove all slurs from the hard filter and allow rule 11 to take care of instances of bigotry.

Calling somebody a cracker is different because white people aren't marginalised and the word carries no weight to it. It would look incredibly fucking silly to add that to the slur filter.

Also some edgelord in polcon pinged me over this post but seemed unable to express their problems with it. Still looking forward to their explanation.
The line is arbitrary, this part isn't debateable or else we'd ban 'bitch' for being bigoted towards women.

So with the line being arbitrary, we have to understand the utility of both sides.

The utility of banning nigger is that it both prevents the exclusion and discomfort of black people AND it filters out the kinds of people that WANT to exclude black people. It's a double dip on utility, we improve the environment for some players and we remove players who are nazis, cryptonazis, fascists and bigots (who happen to have a lot of comorbid traits that make them worthless members of the community)

Now let's take 'schizo'. If we ban schizo it prevents the exclusion and discomfort of people who have schizophrenia (a much smaller group so we get less consequential utility out of banning it) and there is a significant overlap between people who casually use schizo, and reasonable functioning members of the community. Similar arguments can be made for retarded. It's too casually used and that casual use is tied to a population of people that has less overlap with other negative groups. CAN we ban it? Yes, most of these people (unlike the aforementioned nazis etc) will change their behaviour because they're simply more conscientious, but enforcement also comes with downsides.

Personally I was pushed out of some overly hugboxy communities that banned words like idiot, stupid and cunt because they were inherently discriminatory to a group (which they objectively are) but they missed the actual practicality and utility of this language. All insults can eventually boil down to some kind of ableism denigrating someone's mental faculties. Calling someone a socipath is discrimanatory, saying you're an asshole to someone with diagnosed narcissism is discriminatory. The line is arbitray, we decide where the line is based on utility. I personally believe retarded doesn't cross that threshold but I'm conscientious enough to not care if it gets banned because calling people retards just doesn't have such a massive weighty value to me. The "just be more creative" argument is a legitimate one.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Tapubulu » #635458

JusticeGoat wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:32 pm I am a little bit perplexed why we are letting one group of players who never interact with the other three servers affect some banned word list. We went many years without needing a filter, if people where dicks we just gave them the boot and that was that. I am against adding to "banned words" You all need to toughen up a bit and understand people who say gamer words will get told to knock it off or they will be removed, i rather have the human interaction than some script.
Not every Manuel player wants to see this retarded shit. I don't think we should just add words to the banned list every time someone gets their feels hurt by words in an online setting.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Blase » #635463

Tapubulu wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:32 am
JusticeGoat wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:32 pm I am a little bit perplexed why we are letting one group of players who never interact with the other three servers affect some banned word list. We went many years without needing a filter, if people where dicks we just gave them the boot and that was that. I am against adding to "banned words" You all need to toughen up a bit and understand people who say gamer words will get told to knock it off or they will be removed, i rather have the human interaction than some script.
Not every Manuel player wants to see this retarded shit. I don't think we should just add words to the banned list every time someone gets their feels hurt by words in an online setting.
Agreed, manuel has two camps, HRP losers in disguise who don’t want any conflict, and people who just wanted some higher standards and longer rounds than terry. Manuel players in the latter camp have thicker skin than the paper mache hide of the former.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #635467

We must look to unspecified future year. The word filter must expand because certain words have archaic meanings that in the past were used to harm marginalized people. It must also expand because language changes over time, and thus formerly innocuous terms are actually hateful slurs being used as "dogwhistles." You WILL be banned for describing an in game playstyle as being "cheesy" because you're secretly referring to Asians as being racially inferior because they are lactose intolerant. An asian member of the community will come to your defense and state he is not offended, but he will be warned for peanut posting as his evidence is anecdotal, as as admin has posted that he has an asian friend that no one has ever met who once wanted to play ss13 but broke down in tears upon hearing someone make a joke about moth milk. Sticky will appear in the thread and accuse you of just wanting to use gamer words, and consulting his thesaurus, he calls you a filthy Albanian, Albania having become an acceptable target because of an Albanian football player not correctly supporting the current thing on twitter in a prompt enough manner. He will imply Albanians like you should be put in extermination camps and call you paranoid when you say something about it.

The bannings shall continue until inclusivity improves.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #635475

Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:58 am
oranges wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:41 pm I did wonder how you were going to cope with your actions coming back to smack you in the face
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Super Aggro Crag wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:41 pm We must look to unspecified future year. The word filter must expand because certain words have archaic meanings that in the past were used to harm marginalized people. It must also expand because language changes over time, and thus formerly innocuous terms are actually hateful slurs being used as "dogwhistles." ~snip~
The bannings shall continue until inclusivity improves.
There are less obscenely facetious ways of defending or expressing your points than this when ranting about extremes of each side of the arguement. Plain language to plain characters often needs plain near universally understandable slurs as we've accustomed to in real life, or start spanning into different dialects where they've gradually gained meaning. Many developers related to world-building and writing lore often put in cultural substitutions for words because the reader can buzz in the meaning for themselves on the given situation.

Calling someone a 'Zilla' can be the lizardpeople 'ligga', which is a further way to ripen the lore.

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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by BeeSting12 » #635485

Super Aggro Crag wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:41 pm We must look to unspecified future year. The word filter must expand because certain words have archaic meanings that in the past were used to harm marginalized people. It must also expand because language changes over time, and thus formerly innocuous terms are actually hateful slurs being used as "dogwhistles." You WILL be banned for describing an in game playstyle as being "cheesy" because you're secretly referring to Asians as being racially inferior because they are lactose intolerant. An asian member of the community will come to your defense and state he is not offended, but he will be warned for peanut posting as his evidence is anecdotal, as as admin has posted that he has an asian friend that no one has ever met who once wanted to play ss13 but broke down in tears upon hearing someone make a joke about moth milk. Sticky will appear in the thread and accuse you of just wanting to use gamer words, and consulting his thesaurus, he calls you a filthy Albanian, Albania having become an acceptable target because of an Albanian football player not correctly supporting the current thing on twitter in a prompt enough manner. He will imply Albanians like you should be put in extermination camps and call you paranoid when you say something about it.

The bannings shall continue until inclusivity improves.
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Re: Expand the definition of rule 11 to include disability based bigotry

Post by oranges » #635501

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:55 am
oranges wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:50 am the server goes where the staff go
If that's the case, why is Policy Discussion even open to non-staff posting? Just to make it look like you care about our opinions even if you actually don't? So you're just going to do whatever you want regardless of counter-arguments presented or if it will piss off everyone, just because YOU personally want it?

Like, how am I supposed to even feel about this post? It's incredibly dismissive and dehumanizing towards regular players, you're straight up just saying you don't give a shit about what we think or feel here. Are you a literal psychopath? Because you seem to have zero empathy.
I'm telling you how it's been, how it will always be and you should be grateful honestly, because everyone else here is too much of a sociopath to tell you the truth

The staff, especially the admins, decide exactly what the server will do, the only way players have input in that realistically is to become admins and then influence the internal decision making.

I think everyone who participates in /tg/station should understand this fact pretty clearly, because the misconceptions only hurt feelings when things don't go the way people want.

like: do you really think anyone from the playerbase had any real input on the rule 11 change? Firstly, it only happened because mso got annoyed at some behaviour, and secondly, if it had been put to the community I expect it would have lost any poll. What about that kind of thing makes you think in any way you had the ability to influence the server?

I think if we're going to have any kind of real discussion we should be honest about exactly what it looks like.
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