High Transmission Regen Coma

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Justice12354
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High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Justice12354 » #636374

Many people dislike Regen Coma. Whether it is because they don't want to suffer its fake death stun during combat, or because they'd rather just heal themselves.

I'll be mainly referring to the former since it's what makes it extremely annoying. Getting in combat with an antagonist, like Nukies, while having Regen Coma is a death sentence since it's just so obvious and the stun is so long. Currently, we don't have any way of choosing when Regen Coma is used, so it's just a trap waiting to be stepped on. With this being said, I believe you should be able to choose when and whether you get Regen Coma. There are suggestions to fix it through code, but, while it's not, I think it'd be wise to get something down on this matter:

Is spreading a high transmission virus with regen coma grief?

I see many people bothered about viruses that have regen coma with high transmission (Airborne or On Contact) specifically and, even if it comes down to a "It depends on the context and intent", it'd be important to raise some awareness to this annoying symptom, in my opinion.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Tearling » #636375

If high transmission regen coma is considered grief, then all positive viruses with high transmission that have downsides should also be considered grief.
Self-resp prevents CPR, meaning high transmission self-resp is grief.
Space healing I BELIEVE (could be wrong) damages slime people, meaning high transmission starlight condensation is grief.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Justice12354 » #636376

Tearling wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:53 pm If high transmission regen coma is considered grief, then all positive viruses with high transmission that have downsides should also be considered grief.
Self-resp prevents CPR, meaning high transmission self-resp is grief.
Space healing I BELIEVE (could be wrong) damages slime people, meaning high transmission starlight condensation is grief.
Although there's a logical relation between these, CPR is not a required element since no one uses it consistently enough and we have epi-pens. Also, slimepeople chose to become slimepeople, so that's on them. I'd argue that, out of all the positive symptoms with downsides, Regen Coma is by far the one with the worst downside.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Nabski » #636383

Here's my take.

If it's part of a healing virus package with some other positive symptoms, it's probably not intended to be grief.

If the only thing the virus does is spread really fast and give regen coma, that's kinda shitty why would you do that. I would put that at "a good meme once or twice, lynchable by the crew, shouldn't be a reoccurring habit, but not outright griff ban worthy".
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by NecromancerAnne » #636387

It's debatable. I think in a situation where someone spreads it during an emergency situation, like nukies, they should be doing literally any other virus, but that's an optimization consideration. The real issue here is that punishing people for poor optimization is probably bad form. Rather, it would be better to consider whether there is an option available to remove the virus. If the virologist is blocking any attempts to get a cure when you don't want it, you might want to be less forgiving of the behaviour.

Just as a heads up for anyone wanting to know 'what virus do I do then'

Starlight condensation. The station has a high probability of being blown to pieces during an emergency, and it can help you survive in vacuums just a little bit longer. If you're on icebox, get self-respiration otherwise you might start having people dying to N2O and CO2.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Pandarsenic » #636390

Being bad at your job isn't grief

/thread
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Shellton(Mario) » #636396

Annoying yes, grief no. I think regan coma needs a rework but thats coding and not policy. Also to be fair am pretty sure it triggers when you are pretty close to crit anyways. So if you are getting put to sleep by it you were most likely going to lose the fight already. if we made it bwoinkable to use regan coma it would legit never be used. Best advice is if you don't want it make the vaccine for it.

In short: Skill issue
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Tearling » #636402

Justice12354 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:15 am
Tearling wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:53 pm If high transmission regen coma is considered grief, then all positive viruses with high transmission that have downsides should also be considered grief.
Self-resp prevents CPR, meaning high transmission self-resp is grief.
Space healing I BELIEVE (could be wrong) damages slime people, meaning high transmission starlight condensation is grief.
Although there's a logical relation between these, CPR is not a required element since no one uses it consistently enough and we have epi-pens. Also, slimepeople chose to become slimepeople, so that's on them. I'd argue that, out of all the positive symptoms with downsides, Regen Coma is by far the one with the worst downside.
Even if it has the worst downside, which I would agree it does, it's still an overall positive symptom. If you disagree that it's not positive, this shouldn't be a policy thread, it should be a coding thread because they're the ones who determine which traits are positive or negative, right?
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #636404

Justice12354 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:15 am
Tearling wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:53 pm If high transmission regen coma is considered grief, then all positive viruses with high transmission that have downsides should also be considered grief.
Self-resp prevents CPR, meaning high transmission self-resp is grief.
Space healing I BELIEVE (could be wrong) damages slime people, meaning high transmission starlight condensation is grief.
Although there's a logical relation between these, CPR is not a required element since no one uses it consistently enough and we have epi-pens. Also, slimepeople chose to become slimepeople, so that's on them. I'd argue that, out of all the positive symptoms with downsides, Regen Coma is by far the one with the worst downside.
I'm sorry what? Medical Doctors use CPR all day every day, and some of them I see avoid self resp just like people want to avoid regen coma in this thread.

I still don't think that on contact regen come should be considered grief though, for the simple reason of intent - obviously if your virologist makes a maxed out regen come or self resp virus with on contact transmission, they're not trying to grief anyone, they're trying to make a super good virus.

You know what viruses griefer virologists make? High transmission alopecia. Or high transmission hallucinations or some shit.

This thread is ridiculous because it is completely dismissive of what the virologist is thinking about when they make the virus, which is the central element of griefing, instead focusing purely on the game mechanics.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #636405

The solution, imo, is to just...make it so that Regen Coma is something you click, rather than an automatic activation. But that's code, not policy.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Istoprocent1 » #636417

Regen Coma has always been a bit griefy, especially when its distributed via air/contact. There are plenty of approaches that could be taken. One option would be making virologists name the virus correctly as well as mass produce and provide a cure for their airborne/contact viruses as a policy. Another one would be code related to fix specific viruses like Regen Coma and Self-Respiration.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Pandarsenic » #636419

If you don't like it, just demand a vaccine. Put the virologist into a regenerative coma and steal their stuff if you need to.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #636420

Istoprocent1 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:07 amOne option would be making virologists name the virus correctly as well as mass produce and provide a cure for their airborne/contact viruses as a policy.
This is ridiculous. We don't require any other job to have fallbacks to fix positives. This is like demanding medbay be required to keep large stocks of monkey organs for transplant in the event that someone gets revived using cybernetic organs but they decide they don't like it because it makes them more EMP vulnerable. If I was an MD and someone got mad over that, I would tell them to lay back down for surgery, remove their cybernetic organs, and then let them fucking die and toss their ungrateful ass in a morgue tray. Same thing here.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by terranaut » #636421

drink some orange juice and you'll get rid of it idiot
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by iamgoofball » #636424

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:34 am
Istoprocent1 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:07 amOne option would be making virologists name the virus correctly as well as mass produce and provide a cure for their airborne/contact viruses as a policy.
This is ridiculous. We don't require any other job to have fallbacks to fix positives. This is like demanding medbay be required to keep large stocks of monkey organs for transplant in the event that someone gets revived using cybernetic organs but they decide they don't like it because it makes them more EMP vulnerable. If I was an MD and someone got mad over that, I would tell them to lay back down for surgery, remove their cybernetic organs, and then let them fucking die and toss their ungrateful ass in a morgue tray. Same thing here.
Saving someone's life in an emergency because they need a new liver or whatever is absolutely different from spreading a self resp virus around. I fucking hate self resp, I can't do CPR on people with it.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by sinfulbliss » #636425

I think it should be treated like other annoying viruses which is that it makes the viro valid but isn't something they could be bwoinked over. Especially since it's at least intended as a helpful virus. It's bad for combat but plenty of people get injured/die from environmental reasons too, and for that regen coma can be really helpful.

At worst you could require viros to make a cure for it if they make the virus, for people who don't want it.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by chocolate_bickie » #636428

sinfulbliss wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:43 am I think it should be treated like other annoying viruses which is that it makes the viro valid but isn't something they could be bwoinked over. Especially since it's at least intended as a helpful virus. It's bad for combat but plenty of people get injured/die from environmental reasons too, and for that regen coma can be really helpful.

At worst you could require viros to make a cure for it if they make the virus, for people who don't want it.
This tbh. Any viro that spreads a virus to people, good or bad, without consent, is perfectly valid.

If virologists don't wanna be killed over this just make 0.1u pills of the virus and leave them in lobby, arrivals, bar, etc
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Sylphet » #636456

Absolutely not. Every positive symptom virus hurts someone. Self resp hurts med. Regen coma hurts mining. Starlight hurts slimes. Resonance hurts anyone who doesn't have it. Are any of those grief ? What separates these from the grief symptoms like alopecia or coughing are that those do not have any kind of positive, and they are spread with the intent to be annoying. Someone not liking a virus is not the same as being griefed and the comparison is ridiculous. Even if we specify regen coma released with no other symptoms this is arbitrary, administratively forces gameplay optimisation and punishes inexperienced players disproportionately. I want to lynch viros who release self resp but it doesn't give me the right to kill them. The intent in releasing it is still good, and it is still positive for most people.
Justice12354 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:15 am Although there's a logical relation between these, CPR is not a required element since no one uses it consistently enough and we have epi-pens.
What ? No one uses CPR ? Citation needed. CPR is critical to medbay. Epipens and salbutamol pens are a finite resource. Oxyloss chems have downsides and cannot function on patients in stasis. Regen coma is potentially harmful only if and when you are put in crit, leaving aside the fact that if you're that hurt enough to trigger coma, you were going to lose the fight anyway. Self resp on the other hand, from the moment of infection, locks you out of a basic treatment option that is used constantly by literally every doctor after defibbing, as well as any crewmembers who may be helping an injured person without access to medical care, and you have no option but to go get it cured if you want CPR back.
chocolate_bickie wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:37 am This tbh. Any viro that spreads a virus to people, good or bad, without consent, is perfectly valid.
This is completely false. If you outright kill a viro for releasing a good virus just because you don't like its symptom, you will be banned for it. Use your words in this roleplaying game to get a vaccine from them. If they don't give you one, then you can either ask literally any other medstaff, or follow escalation policy and beat one out of them.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by thgvr » #636462

All released viruses should be released in pill form and optional, regen coma is extremely debilitating and will knock you out with deceptively little damage.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by datorangebottle » #636464

Players shouldn't be banned for using the tools of their job appropriately. Spreading a virus with only beneficial symptoms(read: none of the annoying ones like "heehoo you grow a beard") is an appropriate use.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #636465

Sylphet wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:54 pmThis is completely false. If you outright kill a viro for releasing a good virus just because you don't like its symptom, you will be banned for it. Use your words in this roleplaying game to get a vaccine from them. If they don't give you one, then you can either ask literally any other medstaff, or follow escalation policy and beat one out of them.
Objection - vaccines require mostly knowledge of chemistry, not virology. I mastered virology ages before I even touched chemistry. Please don't encourage people to beat up newbie virologists.

Otherwise agreed though, this thread is ridiculous.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Sylphet » #636466

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:53 pm
Sylphet wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:54 pmsnip
Objection - vaccines require mostly knowledge of chemistry, not virology. I mastered virology ages before I even touched chemistry. Please don't encourage people to beat up newbie virologists.

Otherwise agreed though, this thread is ridiculous.
That's the last thing I want to see happen, I had assumed that it was obvious that I was talking about a viro capable of making a vaccine who refuses - since I would expect literally any level of dialogue from people before horizontal-ing them, a new player would have the chance to explain that they genuinely don't know how. Sorry if this was unclear !
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Pandarsenic » #636471

Sylphet wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:58 pm That's the last thing I want to see happen, I had assumed that it was obvious that I was talking about a viro capable of making a vaccine who refuses
That's all virologists, now that they lack skeleton access to Chemistry.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by borb197 » #636479

Never in the entirety of my time playing this game have I see anything good come out of high transmit regeneration coma.
Regeneration coma, starlight condensation and self respiration all have fatal downsides and having them as high-transmit viruses will lead to people dying, so all three should only be transmitted in pill form.
With the current state of virology, a virus with either of the three symptoms and a high transmission rate, especially if it is airborne or on-contact will become uncontrollable and will fuck people over.
I am fully in support to have not just regeneration coma but also the other two symptoms to be mandatory to only be released in pill form, because no matter what side you're on, I'm sure that you can agree that cutting the entire crew's max health to 70 in combat before they are basically dead, delimbing, draining the blood of and killing people from toxins, and preventing medical from using a CPR which is often critical to saving people's lives are all things that can be considered grief, and it is when you subject the entire crew to it with no control over it and most of them having no knowledge of the virus until it's too late, all of those are affects caused by the use of the aforementioned "positive" symptoms, and them being used in uncontrollable high-transmit viruses should be something prohibited long ago, but for some reason despite all three of those being grief, when virology is mentioned people flock to it being not grief because all three of those provide nearly unnoticeable upsides.

Arguing over intent makes this even worse, intent is hard to identify and regeneration coma alongside the other symptoms being classed as positive symptoms allows people with the actual intent to grief to hide this claiming that they believed regeneration coma was an actually good symptom.

Overall, if there isn't anything to prohibit players from releasing viruses which can have such adverse affects on the entire fucking crew and the potential to round remove people or at the very least kill them, then people will continue doing it, and the argument that this would harm newbies wanting to learn and be helpful is also just stupid considering that regeneration coma harms the crew and the lack of control on it leads to new players learning bad habits - if you defend regeneration coma staying uncontrolled you are effectively saying you want newbies to learn bad habits and you want newbies to ask why they are getting lynched or ahelped over something they thought was alright.

Also, inorganic regeneration coma viruses completely round remove androids & regeneration coma round removes augmented humans, and self respiration can heavily fuck with atmospherics and prevents capture of changelings, just something I figured I'd mention.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by borb197 » #636480

Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:41 am Being bad at your job isn't grief

/thread
Is it grief to accidentally connect plasma to distro because I accidentally placed a single omni layer adapter as an atmos tech?
Is it grief to accidentally plasmaflood ordnance / detonate a maxcap prematurely, making a very large breach in science, because I didn't know that would happen?
Is it grief to kill people and sometimes effectively round remove them because I gave them large quantities of a chemical they are allergic to / overdosed them?
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Nabski » #636483

Borb what the fuck are you talking about with starlight condensation having any downside at all.

Having healing be conditional/require some downside or effort was part of the "deal" required for virology to have healing at all.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Shadowflame909 » #636485

If this indeed becomes grief. Then Virology should get side-effectless healing back, but weaker or whatever. Like Nabski said...this is intentional. Not grief!
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #636487

borb197 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:37 am
Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:41 am Being bad at your job isn't grief

/thread
Is it grief to accidentally connect plasma to distro because I accidentally placed a single omni layer adapter as an atmos tech?
Is it grief to accidentally plasmaflood ordnance / detonate a maxcap prematurely, making a very large breach in science, because I didn't know that would happen?
Is it grief to kill people and sometimes effectively round remove them because I gave them large quantities of a chemical they are allergic to / overdosed them?
No
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #636499

Nabski wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:56 am Borb what the fuck are you talking about with starlight condensation having any downside at all.

Having healing be conditional/require some downside or effort was part of the "deal" required for virology to have healing at all.
It fuckin' deletes Slimepeople. Most of medical won't realllllly know how to fix it properly, so it's near enough to a round remove half the time, potentially.

Sure, it was their choice to become a Slimeperson, but. Still.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Pandarsenic » #636500

borb197 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:37 am
Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:41 am Being bad at your job isn't grief

/thread
Is it grief to accidentally connect plasma to distro because I accidentally placed a single omni layer adapter as an atmos tech?
Is it grief to accidentally plasmaflood ordnance / detonate a maxcap prematurely, making a very large breach in science, because I didn't know that would happen?
Is it grief to kill people and sometimes effectively round remove them because I gave them large quantities of a chemical they are allergic to / overdosed them?
No
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #636506

borb197 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:37 am
Pandarsenic wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:41 am Being bad at your job isn't grief

/thread
Is it grief to accidentally connect plasma to distro because I accidentally placed a single omni layer adapter as an atmos tech?
Is it grief to accidentally plasmaflood ordnance / detonate a maxcap prematurely, making a very large breach in science, because I didn't know that would happen?
Is it grief to kill people and sometimes effectively round remove them because I gave them large quantities of a chemical they are allergic to / overdosed them?
No.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #636518

Okay, I've got a complaint to make here - No one who is arguing in favor of the OP is arguing in good faith. Every single one of their posts has this weird implicit idea that regen coma is an inherently negative symptom, with basically no upsides, and in fact it is SO bad it should be considered griefing.

Regen coma makes you effectively immune to environmental death (except for extreme scenarios like plasmafires or walking in to lava), and it's honestly about 50/50 if it will get you killed in a fight IF IT EVEN PROCS IN A FIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE, dependent on if the virologist bothered to max out the stats for regen coma to make it more deceptive, and if the person you're fighting ACTUALLY notices it's regen coma and continues to beat you after you deathgasp and look dead. Basically only really good players who have played for at least 500-750 hours are likely to notice this, AND it's dependent on if you even get put into a coma in the first place, in which case the coma only effectively gave you one less max hit before you were down - not an insignificant negative, but when you lay all this out, regen coma is still like 95% positive, 5% negative. By this logic we should be banning fucking oxygen from distro because it's used to fuel fires 5% of the time. For the vast majority of the playerbase, who are not 3k hours ubersweaters getting into random deathmatches 2 hours into the shift with another 3k hours player for unknown reasons, and it's not some one-sided fight where it was actually really close and you just needed one more hit to win, regen coma is an overwhelmingly positive trait.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by PKPenguin321 » #636528

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:23 am
Nabski wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:56 am Borb what the fuck are you talking about with starlight condensation having any downside at all.

Having healing be conditional/require some downside or effort was part of the "deal" required for virology to have healing at all.
It fuckin' deletes Slimepeople. Most of medical won't realllllly know how to fix it properly, so it's near enough to a round remove half the time, potentially.

Sure, it was their choice to become a Slimeperson, but. Still.
Sounds like Xenobiology is griefing by making slimeperson potions then...
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Istoprocent1 » #636529

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:49 am Okay, I've got a complaint to make here - No one who is arguing in favor of the OP is arguing in good faith.
This is a bad faith argument and is just a weak attempt to label anyone who is not onboard with your idea of whats good or bad.

Its a fact that people do not enjoy getting randomly KOd by regen coma that they never had a chance to consent to.

Releasing viruses is never an accident for the majority of cases, because virology and virologists are equipped with the tools to contain their experiments - isolated lab, health scanner, medical HUDs and headset to ask for chemicals to be left at the door of the lab in order to cure the viruses without releasing them. Making pills for the potentially detrimental diseases is not that hard. Should we start yeeting the virologists? Probably not, but we should move towards the goal where releasing airborne AIDS that can be potentially lethal is not the norm.
PKPenguin321 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:27 am Sounds like Xenobiology is griefing by making slimeperson potions then...
What about going around and shooting people with lizard mutation toxin? At the end of the day It all boils down to consent - you don't wanna be randomly turned into a lizard? Well some people don't want their health reduced by 30%.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #636530

Istoprocent1 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:37 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:49 am Okay, I've got a complaint to make here - No one who is arguing in favor of the OP is arguing in good faith.
This is a bad faith argument and is just a weak attempt to label anyone who is not onboard with your idea of whats good or bad.
Me: "People on the other side are arguing in bad faith because their posts are worded in a way to imply regen coma is always overwhelmingly negative, without showing it's positives in the slightest." (Notice how I gave reasons to justify my argument, instead of just stating the other side is acting in bad faith! Crazy concept.)

Response: "You can't just say the other side is arguing in bad faith because they're acting like regen coma is basically satan despite it's massive upsides which they're conveniently ignoring! That's a bad faith argument in and of itself!"

Sure bud. Whatever you say.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Istoprocent1 » #636535

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:43 am
Istoprocent1 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:37 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:49 am Okay, I've got a complaint to make here - No one who is arguing in favor of the OP is arguing in good faith.
This is a bad faith argument and is just a weak attempt to label anyone who is not onboard with your idea of whats good or bad.
Me: "People on the other side are arguing in bad faith because their posts are worded in a way to imply regen coma is always overwhelmingly negative, without showing it's positives in the slightest." (Notice how I gave reasons to justify my argument, instead of just stating the other side is acting in bad faith! Crazy concept.)

Response: "You can't just say the other side is arguing in bad faith because they're acting like regen coma is basically satan despite it's massive upsides which they're conveniently ignoring! That's a bad faith argument in and of itself!"

Sure bud. Whatever you say.
Slow down, partner. You are driving too fast.

Regen coma is negatively affecting a lot of the people and they would prefer that the virus, which is not overwhelmingly negative be something they have an option to consent to.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #636536

Istoprocent1 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:54 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:43 am
Istoprocent1 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:37 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:49 am Okay, I've got a complaint to make here - No one who is arguing in favor of the OP is arguing in good faith.
This is a bad faith argument and is just a weak attempt to label anyone who is not onboard with your idea of whats good or bad.
Me: "People on the other side are arguing in bad faith because their posts are worded in a way to imply regen coma is always overwhelmingly negative, without showing it's positives in the slightest." (Notice how I gave reasons to justify my argument, instead of just stating the other side is acting in bad faith! Crazy concept.)

Response: "You can't just say the other side is arguing in bad faith because they're acting like regen coma is basically satan despite it's massive upsides which they're conveniently ignoring! That's a bad faith argument in and of itself!"

Sure bud. Whatever you say.
Slow down, partner. You are driving too fast.

Regen coma is negatively affecting a lot of the people and they would prefer that the virus, which is not overwhelmingly negative be something they have an option to consent to.
You can't just SAY it's negative, you have to say it's negative AND THEN GIVE REASONS that it's negative.

Under what circumstances is regen coma negative? You have to meet all of the following requirements:

You are in a fight with another player (Because regen coma is massively and overwhelmingly positive for environmental damage),
The fight is not one-sided because the other player didn't do something deceptive like first strike you with a syringe gun after asking you a question, or has an item that gives them a large advantage, like them having a fireaxe while you only have a toolbox,
You are both of a roughly equal level of skill in combat, and so would get the same number of hits in, meaning the -1 max hit you get actually has an impact
They do not notice that the regen coma was a fake death, because they are experienced enough to do so
The healing from regen coma does not buy you enough extra time for someone else to save you after you get put in to a coma

If you can meet ALL of these requirements, then you can NOW say regen coma has impacted you negatively. I don't really think that's a negative enough trait for it to be considered griefing, but everyone else arguing in favor of the OP is just saying it is like it's a given.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #636560

PKPenguin321 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 6:27 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:23 am
Nabski wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:56 am Borb what the fuck are you talking about with starlight condensation having any downside at all.

Having healing be conditional/require some downside or effort was part of the "deal" required for virology to have healing at all.
It fuckin' deletes Slimepeople. Most of medical won't realllllly know how to fix it properly, so it's near enough to a round remove half the time, potentially.

Sure, it was their choice to become a Slimeperson, but. Still.
Sounds like Xenobiology is griefing by making slimeperson potions then...
I didn't say Starlight Condensation is griefing. But they asked about it "having any downside at all".
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by borb197 » #636570

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:49 am Okay, I've got a complaint to make here - No one who is arguing in favor of the OP is arguing in good faith. Every single one of their posts has this weird implicit idea that regen coma is an inherently negative symptom, with basically no upsides, and in fact it is SO bad it should be considered griefing.

Regen coma makes you effectively immune to environmental death (except for extreme scenarios like plasmafires or walking in to lava), and it's honestly about 50/50 if it will get you killed in a fight IF IT EVEN PROCS IN A FIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE, dependent on if the virologist bothered to max out the stats for regen coma to make it more deceptive, and if the person you're fighting ACTUALLY notices it's regen coma and continues to beat you after you deathgasp and look dead. Basically only really good players who have played for at least 500-750 hours are likely to notice this, AND it's dependent on if you even get put into a coma in the first place, in which case the coma only effectively gave you one less max hit before you were down - not an insignificant negative, but when you lay all this out, regen coma is still like 95% positive, 5% negative. By this logic we should be banning fucking oxygen from distro because it's used to fuel fires 5% of the time. For the vast majority of the playerbase, who are not 3k hours ubersweaters getting into random deathmatches 2 hours into the shift with another 3k hours player for unknown reasons, and it's not some one-sided fight where it was actually really close and you just needed one more hit to win, regen coma is an overwhelmingly positive trait.
I think the main reason people arguing against high-transmit regeneration coma argue without providing any positive examples because they have no positive experiences from the virus to speak of.
Also, despite you saying its 95% positive and 5% negative, you spent more time going through the negative than the positive.
Sure, it has potential to help some people, this is why it's still a positive symptom, alongside the other two symptoms I mentioned. They have positive effects and can be very helpful, but this argument is about high-transmit regeneration coma, which is a whole different story.

High transmit regeneration coma forces the symptom to everyone who isn't overwise immune to viruses. This can be beneficial to prevent environmental death, but unless you are dealing with very, very new players, people don't find themselves in breached areas very often without EVA gear or otherwise environmentally unfriendly areas to the point where regeneration coma procs. You could argue that someone could bomb, however bombings lately are very rare, so providing literally game-changing detriments to anyone who wants to fight (which I will mention in more detail) for an event that probably won't even occur, and instead of just making it low-transmit as a pill which in that case would bring no issues at all and I and others can agree that is totally fine and probably the original intent for regeneration coma to be used in. Also, I guess it could help with fighting blobs? Good luck if you get knocked out right beside it or by a blobbernaut but I suppose to give your argument some merit I can mention that. I've provided quite a lack of examples where it's useful just because I don't ever see it being useful - that's the problem with it.

Sure, you could also argue that the occasional atmospheric technician or station engineer might be saved from dying to breaches while trying to repair them, but they're also both roles with very easy access to both spaceworthy MODsuits and both roles which can hack into, and in my opinion should long have access to, EVA - which has a large stock of much more reliable suits to be protected from space from, and being trapped in regeneration coma to rely on surviving in a breach is both not going to be fun at all for the engineer, but will also prevent them from responding to it entirely, having at best a few seconds to do something before it's another 30 seconds staring at a grey screen.

And again, I want to be clear, regeneration coma itself is not that bad, it's a very good symptom if the people you infect it with know that they have it and consent to having it. Most of the actual grief from regeneration coma is from people having their effective health axed to 70 while they are not aware of it in the slightest, up until it is too late. And no, this is not an argument to defend regeneration coma saving you in a fight, when someone falls down earlier than they should've and instantly deathgasp, along with appearing dead on examine, you know they are in regeneration coma. This is why I'm arguing against regeneration coma being a high-transmit on contact/airborne virus, rather than regeneration coma altogether being grief.

Regeneration coma mostly affects the heads of staff (as they need to deal with bagel traitors now), all of security (the head of security, warden, detective and however many security officers a shit brings), and shaft miners. Of course, people are going to be getting into a lot of conflicts outside of these jobs, just from the inherent nature of /tg/ and from being an antagonist, however for the sake of not relying on if someone actually is a traitor/etc to be affected, I'll just focus on the roles that are basically guaranteed to be in conflict at one point or another.

First, heads of staff and security. These will often be in conflict with the common three antagonists; traitors, heretics, and changelings, and now in conflicts with them their max health is axed down to 70.
None can rely on healing such as security benefitting from quadsec (which actually does give you an extra hit in prolonged conflicts), as proccing regeneration coma forces you to be completely helpless up until you are fully healed.
When up against these antagonists, and I'm also not going to be mentioning non-antagonist shitters which you will also find yourself fighting a lot just to save having to rely on the probability of a nonantagonist on nonantagonist conflict, all three of them have a lot of tools to aid with fighting you, some of them dealing very high damage (25 damage armblades, 35 damage double edged energy swords or 30 for regular energy swords), all of which except for the desword (unless you are wearing armour) now kill you in 1 hit less. How fun! This might not seem like a big deal, but most fights aren't just a clickfest to see who hits eachother more, you will be moving around a lot and doing a lot more to avoid getting hit, so each hit is just as punishing but less likely to occur, so with the loss of that one hit you are at a big disadvantage, as you now have one less hit which you can take as a mistake, and overall less room for error. Sure, you could get them into regeneration coma before yourself, and now congratulations! You won a fight against someone because they are now the victim of grief from the virologist. They did not know they had regeneration coma, and as such played as if they didn't, and now they got fucked over.

For shaft miners, it's pretty rare that you'll find yourself with one of these viruses if you're one of the miners that goes back up to the station once for plasma cutters, satchels of holding and the ORM, then you might not really get the virus, but if you do, it is pretty fucking devastating.
As a miner, you will be finding yourself taking a lot of damage. Even if you're some miner god or you use the hierophant cheese trophy, you will likely still get hit. This isn't an issue because you have access to a lot of strong healing, so if you get low you can take some time to evade and focus on healing - and with the use of penthrite in the luxury mining pens, you can stay standing up to -40% health, giving you even more room for error and as an experienced miner you'll know that, so being in near-crit will be something more usual for you as habits are built. But now, with the regeneration coma virus you didn't know you had, your effective health is literally halved. Now, instead of crit at 0% health or -40% health if you use luxury mining pens, you now are literally dead at 30% health. You lost half of the health you're used to and meant to have, just because the virologist mindlessly released a regeneration coma virus with high transmit.

This also can cuck people in situations where, for the example you mentioned earlier in plasmafires, regeneration coma won't save you from this environmental death, and the 30 health you gain by not having it is extremely useful, but since this is as rare as if not rarer than bombings, I won't dwell on it.

Overall, I can say from my own experience, seeing so many reactions from players and their experiences; and a general lack of witnessing any positives from regeneration coma - which isn't from inactivity or playing too much of fighting roles I spend the majority of my time playing as jobs such as in engineering or science, usually far away from conflict, and even then it manages to fuck me over in one way or another pretty much every time I have it.
And to restate, this is not going to just grief new virologists trying to be helpful, it's going to prevent them getting into bad habits, and there's no denying that protecting someone from learning from their mistakes because they are new, rather than teaching them that this is a bad habit and harms a large part of the crew directly, you are doing more harm than good to them if you stop newer virologists from learning what is directly going to negatively affect a lot of the crew while positively affecting usually no-one, at best a few people who get stranded in a breach, rather than allowing them to learn that if they still want to do this, they can use a pill based low transmit virus which will have all the positives with none of the negatives - and if someone who takes it and gets fucked over, that's their own problem for taking the virus in the first place.
Also, regeneration coma ultimately fucks up newer players in the aforementioned roles - security, heads and mining, as there's now even less room for error for them to learn how to do their job properly / fight properly, as now they're being fucked over by a mechanic they might not have even known existed!

rant over, do as you will tell me im dumb or a spawn of satan or whatever because i dont like high transmit instant low max health virus
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by YBS » #636573

I think the largest problem this faces is that your average virologist absolutely believes that regen coma is a helpful thing to introduce, so they will. If this became policy, I don't know if I could ever bring myself to note someone for it unless I caught them twirling their mustache and laughing at people being stunned.

If it went to PMs I could see the conversation going something like this:

"Hey there, please don't spread regen coma, it's not helpful and causes stun"
-"But it's a positive effect? Why is it in the game then?"

Virology is already on a razor tight leash with spreading virus' as non antag already. A player basically has to perfectly understand the virus mechanic to not risk some form of ramification on breaking quarantine.

Suddenly having this effect that makes-smiley-face on medhud actually be punishable makes absolutely no sense.

I'd be much more in favor of fixing regen coma to NOT be this proverbial venus fly trap for viros trying to be helpful.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Capsandi » #636577

"fixing" regen coma will at best make it free passive healing passed out to the crew every round.

I've only had good experiences with regen coma but that's because I played before 2019 and my eyes still dart to the chat box looking for tiny pricks.
If you are in a fight when regen coma starts all you need to do is to 'accidentally' hit yourself into crit with whatever is in hand while your fellow combatant assists you. Then you 'die' and the guy starts dragging you to medical or space. Either way you can usually get up in time and twat them into their own regen coma because everyone has it if its high transmission so the playing field is still even.
At this point its more of a code issue than a policy issue but if your losing a fight due to a disadvantage that both you and your opponent have its a skill issue
Also maybe balloon alert the wounds make you sleepy message
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Pandarsenic » #636584

borb197 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:17 pm I think the main reason people arguing against high-transmit regeneration coma argue without providing any positive examples because they have no positive experiences from the virus to speak of.

You could argue that someone could bomb, however bombings lately are very rare, so providing literally game-changing detriments to anyone who wants to fight (which I will mention in more detail) for an event that probably won't even occur
In rounds I've realized I had high-transmission regen coma, I've been saved at least 2 or 3 times by it, and I have never been killed by it that I'm aware of.

idk where you get the idea that bombings are rare, but against the last 400ish rounds I've been in (mostly Sybil, a handful on Manuel or Bagil), I've seen high-transmission regen coma like maybe 4 times at most compared to needing EVA gear to traverse the station at least 1 round in every 10, discounting situations where the breach is a rod or delamination that doesn't significantly affect where I am or what I'm doing.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #636591

borb197 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:17 pm-snip-
I just want to say I really appreciate this response! This is exactly what I was hoping for, clear-cut examples and reasoning, not just "Me no like regen coma, it griff, ban he viro".

The biggest reason I see in counterargument to most of what you said regarding command in security is what you yourself said - if it's high transmission, it will impact the antagonist too, putting you again on even footing with them with both sides being -1 max hit, meaning that the only impact regen coma had on your fight was actually positive - you both had the same new max health, but now when you go horizontal it's also healing you, buying you time for someone else to bail you out, and has a small chance of deceiving them and letting you get away completely if they are not paying attention. That seems to be a positive to me, no?

I wont disagree with you on it's annoyance for miners, but thankfully for them, they rarely catch the disease even if it is high transmission simply because they're usually on lavaland.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by borb197 » #636594

YBS wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:38 pm I think the largest problem this faces is that your average virologist absolutely believes that regen coma is a helpful thing to introduce, so they will. If this became policy, I don't know if I could ever bring myself to note someone for it unless I caught them twirling their mustache and laughing at people being stunned.

If it went to PMs I could see the conversation going something like this:

"Hey there, please don't spread regen coma, it's not helpful and causes stun"
-"But it's a positive effect? Why is it in the game then?"

Virology is already on a razor tight leash with spreading virus' as non antag already. A player basically has to perfectly understand the virus mechanic to not risk some form of ramification on breaking quarantine.

Suddenly having this effect that makes-smiley-face on medhud actually be punishable makes absolutely no sense.

I'd be much more in favor of fixing regen coma to NOT be this proverbial venus fly trap for viros trying to be helpful.
I don't intend for a policy change to punish virologists who are genuinely trying to be helpful, rather it should be enforced to those virologists with more verbal warnings that this can cause a lot of grief to the crew and to suggest to instead use pill low transmit viruses, while also giving us something to punish virologists who are repeat offenders, who have been spoken to and continue to release viruses like this knowing full well that it griefs the crew - those are the virologists who I would see getting noted and banned - while virologists who try to play in good faith can understand that not everything that appears helpful is actually helpful, and that regeneration coma appearing as the "best helpful symptom" is just completely misleading to the point where it gets released at such a large scale by so many new virologists who then learn the bad habit of continuing to do so, completely blind to the actual effects it has on crew.
Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:25 pm
borb197 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:17 pm I think the main reason people arguing against high-transmit regeneration coma argue without providing any positive examples because they have no positive experiences from the virus to speak of.

You could argue that someone could bomb, however bombings lately are very rare, so providing literally game-changing detriments to anyone who wants to fight (which I will mention in more detail) for an event that probably won't even occur
In rounds I've realized I had high-transmission regen coma, I've been saved at least 2 or 3 times by it, and I have never been killed by it that I'm aware of.

idk where you get the idea that bombings are rare, but against the last 400ish rounds I've been in (mostly Sybil, a handful on Manuel or Bagil), I've seen high-transmission regen coma like maybe 4 times at most compared to needing EVA gear to traverse the station at least 1 round in every 10, discounting situations where the breach is a rod or delamination that doesn't significantly affect where I am or what I'm doing.
Regeneration coma still saves people ever so rarely, even as you say yourself only two or three times has it saved you, and while high-transmission regeneration-coma is somewhat rare, it still happens enough for me to personally see others get fucked over by it, myself get fucked over by it and yet the only time I've ever heard a positive experience from people releasing regeneration coma is on this thread. I say that literally, I have never heard anyone have a positive experience with this virus up until now.

Bombings have been somewhat rare recently where I play lately (terry), so that's where I got them being rare from, and not once have I seen anyone benefit from regeneration coma during them, I just brought it up as an example of it being potentially useful in that case, in a legitimate brainstorm to try to get every reason I could think of where it might be somewhat useful.

And again, if you have positive experiences that's great but with the drawbacks presented it should just remain as a virus released in pill form, there's nothing wrong with that and it's not very hard to do.
Capsandi wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:57 pm "fixing" regen coma will at best make it free passive healing passed out to the crew every round.

I've only had good experiences with regen coma but that's because I played before 2019 and my eyes still dart to the chat box looking for tiny pricks.
If you are in a fight when regen coma starts all you need to do is to 'accidentally' hit yourself into crit with whatever is in hand while your fellow combatant assists you. Then you 'die' and the guy starts dragging you to medical or space. Either way you can usually get up in time and twat them into their own regen coma because everyone has it if its high transmission so the playing field is still even.
At this point its more of a code issue than a policy issue but if your losing a fight due to a disadvantage that both you and your opponent have its a skill issue
Also maybe balloon alert the wounds make you sleepy message
Fakedeath with regeneration coma is very obvious, even if you hit yourself into crit to somewhat disguise it when you can see it's about to proc, seeing someone die so quickly from either not being in crit at all or barely having entered crit, while you can bear in mind they could've succumbed, a lot of the time you will see them getting decapitated, which obviously prevents revival via regeneration coma.

Also, it very rarely makes the playing field actually even, because for a lot of the examples I used it directly reduces the amount of hits you need to take to fall into coma from a high damage weapon which is already exclusive to the other party armblades from 4 hits to 3, eswords from 4 hits to 3, deswords from 3 hits to 2, as crew you have very little weapons which are as damaging as those, which means that they will not be ultimately fucked over by the lower damage threshold to be coma'd as quickly as you would be, when in a fight without coma you as the traitor would need to take multiple more hits, and as sec/whatever you would only need to take one more hit, this doesn't even it out at all.

This also just directly buffs people who are immune to viruses altogether, someone who cured themselves knowing they had the virus, a nuclear operative or any species which is not affected by these viruses would not fight on the now uneven playing field your "beneficial" virus has created.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by borb197 » #636596

borb197 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:59 pm

Also, it very rarely makes the playing field actually even, because for a lot of the examples I used it directly reduces the amount of hits you need to take to fall into coma from a high damage weapon which is already exclusive to the other party armblades from 4 hits to 3, eswords from 4 hits to 3, deswords from 3 hits to 2, as crew you have very little weapons which are as damaging as those, which means that they will not be ultimately fucked over by the lower damage threshold to be coma'd as quickly as you would be, when in a fight without coma you as the traitor would need to take multiple more hits, and as sec/whatever you would only need to take one more hit, this doesn't even it out at all.
sorry for not being as clear with this on my first big response, should've mentioned that it impacts traitors significantly more, as now despite the crew having lower damage weapons you hit your regen coma threshold from taking two or three or even more less hits than you should've to get critted originally, this also just applies to anyone who'se being fought with normally less lethal and relatively low damage weapons.
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Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Nabski » #636604

Starlight condensation being bad because what about slime people is such an omega brained take. I understand Borbs points, even if I don't agree with the majority of them.
Shadowflame909 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:01 am The concept of downsideless healing
With the amount and impact of wounds, would non conditional healing even be that bad anymore?

The majority of my fights feel like they aren't determined by raw damage, but bleeding out from cuts, slowdown from breaks, or stamina-lock via some mess of grabs and tables and throws that I haven't figured out how to fight against.

Bad new healing virus ideas that interact with those systems.
Close your cuts 2-4x faster, but makes you go deaf/blind when active.
Heals your organs, but breaks your fucking leg bones.
Heals your bones, but causes brain damage in the process.
Converts all stamina damage into 1/2 as much toxin? damage. (okay that's better as a genetics mutation)
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Tearling
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:40 pm
Byond Username: Tearling

Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Tearling » #636669

Stealth regen coma has won me several fights before, and I've generally had more positive experiences with regen coma in general than negative experiences. It's already against the rules to spread regen coma with high transmission if you admit you're trying to grief with it, isn't it?

There's no reason to make any kind of policy changes specifically tailored around an incredibly rare virology disease (High transmission regen coma), which even more rarely actually effects someone negatively, which even more rarely was done with the intent of causing grief. Even if some 200 IQ giga brain viro self-antag decided to spread high transmission regen coma, and then went out of their way to try and put people into dangerous situations to get them killed with regen coma, they would be forced to go through the extra effort of actually breaking the rules to put people into lethal situations.

The idea of an evil villain self-antagging using regen coma high transmission is so laughably inconvenient for them that it seems comical.
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Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
Turbonerd
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:18 pm
Byond Username: AccountName5

Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Turbonerd » #636676

I don't want to get aids. Releasing any disease that can get transmitted to other people should be an instant bwoink+note, then ban if they already have a note.
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Farquaar
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
Byond Username: Farquaar
Location: Delta Quadrant

Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Farquaar » #636695

Hot take: Harmful diseases "leaking" out of laboratories should always be acceptable, but you're on the hook if anyone dies because of it.
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Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: High Transmission Regen Coma

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #636720

Turbonerd wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:20 pm I don't want to get aids. Releasing any disease that can get transmitted to other people should be an instant bwoink+note, then ban if they already have a note.
There are plenty of symptoms that do nothing but benefit, like tissue hydration or mind restoration.
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