Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

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Imitates-The-Lizards
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Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639270

So, a bit ago, I had an issue in a shift - I was playing detective, and on the security channel, a call was put out to arrest the Clown for inciting a riot. I don't necessarily disagree with the Clown in that shift for doing so, by the way, he was fighting with the Warden for stealing his golden bike horn heirloom and using krav maga gloves on him unnecessarily. But, regardless, I'm on team Security as a Detective, so, since I saw him in the halls next to me, I pulled out my baton, and whacked him down. And then, in true security fashion, slipped on him, dropping my baton. A passing Janitor grabbed my baton and ran off with it, so, I went to my office and set them to arrest for theft (taking my baton) and obstruction of justice (interfering with my arrest of the clown who was trying to incite a riot). They decided to wander in front of the brig, and when confronted by security for being wanted, they did in fact return the baton, but I still arrested them for the obstruction charge, since by this time an actual riot was actually forming in front of the Brig due to the god damn clown who got away earlier because my baton was stolen.

The problem is, they decided to sit and argue over the charge with me. "Oh, but I returned the baton.". "Oh, but the Clown was innocent, the warden was krav magaing him!" "Oh, but security let him go earlier!". Etc.

By the time I explained to them and got through all their arguments and explained to them how they were wrong (you still stole the baton, but whatever, you're in for obstruction, not theft, that's an issue for the Captain/hos to deal with, it's not your business, and the call for his arrest for incitement was after he was released), they then said, by that time, they had already served what their sentence should be for obstruction, so they should be released.

I disagreed, but, on account of not wanting to get lynched by the anti-security riot outside the brig, I relented and released them.

Now, on to why I think that time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for lesser offenses - it's because like shown during this shift, it creates perverse gameplay incentives for security and arrestees alike. For security, this punishes you for doing your job properly - if you take the time to discuss things with arrestees, you are stuck not doing your job wherever you may be needed more. I could have and should have been outside of the brig helping to deal with the riot and other crimes, but instead I had to sit in the brig explaining the ins and outs of obstruction to a Janitor. And for the arrestee Janitor, they had an incentive to sit and argue with me - best case, they get off early, worst case, they don't spend any extra time in the Brig because time spent in custody is counted towards their sentence. This incentivizes poor faith players, shitters, greytide, etc. to spend all their time arguing with security so their fellow law-breakers can do whatever they want while all of securities time is tied up with legal argumentation in the Brig, at no cost in terms of sentencing time for them.

Therefore, time spent in custody for lesser offenses should not count towards your sentence, and if you take issue with a lesser offense you were brigged for, the assumption should be that you will raise the issue with the HOS/Captain/Lawyer/Warden and seek recompense for the issue after the fact. Security should not be punished (by being unavailable for other tasks) for taking the time to explain in detail their issues, and arrestees should not be rewarded (by wasting all of securities time for their friends) for petty argumentation over minor offenses.

Obviously, for major offenses where you will be thrown in perma, executed, or gulaged, none of this should apply, because it's quite reasonable to want to argue to avoid those sentences.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #639271

There is (nearly) no policy behind what number sec sticks on your jail cell

You just pull a number out of your ass and go "lol, lmao, sucked in"
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639274

XivilaiAnaxes wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 9:02 am There is (nearly) no policy behind what number sec sticks on your jail cell

You just pull a number out of your ass and go "lol, lmao, sucked in"
It becomes ahelpable past 10 minutes.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Fatal » #639276

Generally speaking from my experience, if you adminhelp that you've been in the brig forever and then given a long sentence on top of it which seems excessive, admins will take a look at it, however

No reason to have a proper policy about this because space law is not enforceable so I don't see how this could be either
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Misdoubtful » #639277

XivilaiAnaxes wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 9:02 am There is (nearly) no policy behind what number sec sticks on your jail cell

You just pull a number out of your ass and go "lol, lmao, sucked in"
Basically this. If sec is being reasonable then great, but if they are getting out of hand its not like non-sec can't make their life's difficult (outside of the protections they get I guess). If they are being extreme and just making your round suck that's a different story.

There will probably always exist a crew vs sec dynamic its part of the game, as will the inter-department fights. I'd rather have that dynamic than not.

If someone is making my life difficult as sec like that chances are I will add time on, if they make it easy they won't be there long. I'm less interested in the specifics and more interested in what that interaction will result in. Anti sec riot? Cool. Them coming back and vandalizing sec? Cool.

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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Nabski » #639280

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 9:30 am
XivilaiAnaxes wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 9:02 am There is (nearly) no policy behind what number sec sticks on your jail cell

You just pull a number out of your ass and go "lol, lmao, sucked in"
It becomes ahelpable past 10 minutes.
But just because it's ahelpable doesn't mean it's automatically wrong.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639282

All right. Well, we have several game admins who are likely to post here. So, if you're a game admin and the scenario listed in the OP happens, and, just for arguments sake, it took 10 minutes (the minimum time before a sentence would be ahelpable) of them being in custody to resolve whether or not they were guilty of a minor crime, they were explained rationally in character what they did wrong like in the OP, and then on top of the 10 minutes they were in custody they were made to serve a 3 minute sentence, would you side with the officer, or the arrestee?

If not even one game admin says they would side with the arrestee and would make the officer release them for time served, then we can happily just close this thread as existing standing policy.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #639293

Please consider the experience of the person you're holding in custody. If you're holding someone for 10 minutes to try and determine if they're even responsible for a "minor crime" then perhaps it'd be far more fair and enjoyable for the other party to just be let go at that point - you've already forced them to sit away from the rest of the game for 10 minutes while you play detective. What's the point of forcing them to sit away for an extra 3 aside from arbitrarily extending the amount of time you can force other people to suffer?

And let's play the other side of this: you hold someone in custody for significantly more than 10 minutes because it just so happens there are other things going on, or you need to talk with your boss, all while you're dragging around some poor schmuck who's cablecuffed to an office chair. Is it fair for you to then turn around after everything's said and done and inform this person that you'll be making them sit out for even longer because you didn't want to deal with them right away?

What of the policy implications? Will it become "meta" for secoffs who find the people they dislike oocly to cablecuff them, happen to have other issues while bringing them into custody, and remove them from the round for far longer than acceptable?

I just don't see this concept as fair or enjoyable for literally anyone else other than the arresting security officer.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by cacogen » #639296

This person still had to spend X minutes not doing what they want and instead spend it detained by and arguing with you so why would you then claim that isn't a punishment and they should have to do that time over in a cell as well. Also the cuffs should know and after 10 minutes they should unlock. The cell timer, it should unlock them and deduct the time spent in them from the time set as well.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639298

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 2:50 pm Please consider the experience of the person you're holding in custody. If you're holding someone for 10 minutes to try and determine if they're even responsible for a "minor crime" then perhaps it'd be far more fair and enjoyable for the other party to just be let go at that point - you've already forced them to sit away from the rest of the game for 10 minutes while you play detective. What's the point of forcing them to sit away for an extra 3 aside from arbitrarily extending the amount of time you can force other people to suffer?

And let's play the other side of this: you hold someone in custody for significantly more than 10 minutes because it just so happens there are other things going on, or you need to talk with your boss, all while you're dragging around some poor schmuck who's cablecuffed to an office chair. Is it fair for you to then turn around after everything's said and done and inform this person that you'll be making them sit out for even longer because you didn't want to deal with them right away?

What of the policy implications? Will it become "meta" for secoffs who find the people they dislike oocly to cablecuff them, happen to have other issues while bringing them into custody, and remove them from the round for far longer than acceptable?

I just don't see this concept as fair or enjoyable for literally anyone else other than the arresting security officer.
The point is to minimize both the time the security officer and the arrestee spend arguing over pointless legal semantics, and instead get them in the cell, starting their short sentence as soon as possible. If they care enough to argue about it (IE, they really dont believe they did anything wrong, and are in fact a good faith player) then having this policy in place will in fact reduce average time spent in the Brig because a good faith player will simply accept their 3 minute brig sentence to get out of the Brig faster, instead of potentially wasting 10 minutes arguing legal semantics. Or, if they want to, they can argue it after they're out, but either way they wont want to argue before their sentence is started in order to minimize time spent in custody.

If they are a bad faith player who is trying to waste security's time, with the suggested policy in place, they will no longer gain gameplay advantage over security, because they will be forced to serve their sentence in the end anyway.

So the suggested policy benefits good faith arrestees, punishes bad faith arrestees, and benefits security.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Nabski » #639305

Arguing legal semantics is more fun than sitting in a cell.

I'd rather spend 6 minutes going back and forth on why it's completely fine that I had a bloody saw in my bag and the hand teleporter followed by 3 minutes in a cell, than 3 minutes sitting wordlessly buckled to a bed.

The true crime is someone who rather than interacting with you in any verbal manner just searches you down to the deepest marrow of your bones, ignores everything you say, THEN throws you in the cell.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by blackdav123 » #639307

Nabski wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 5:59 pm I'd rather spend 6 minutes going back and forth on why it's completely fine that I had a bloody saw in my bag and the hand teleporter followed by 3 minutes in a cell, than 3 minutes sitting wordlessly buckled to a bed.
This. If someone is really being a shitter without any reason and does not have anything you say when you arrest them just toss them in gulag and watch them suicide when forced to do something productive
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639310

Nabski wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 5:59 pm Arguing legal semantics is more fun than sitting in a cell.

I'd rather spend 6 minutes going back and forth on why it's completely fine that I had a bloody saw in my bag and the hand teleporter followed by 3 minutes in a cell, than 3 minutes sitting wordlessly buckled to a bed.

The true crime is someone who rather than interacting with you in any verbal manner just searches you down to the deepest marrow of your bones, ignores everything you say, THEN throws you in the cell.
It's fine if you want to argue legal semantics - you still CAN under this policy. Security will just no longer be put at a gameplay disadvantage relative to you if you do so.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #639333

If I'm not mistaken, the ten minutes rule was put in place to stop people from sending annoying ahelps to admins because they didn't like that the sec officer but them in the brig for 5 minutes for stealing shoes, not to act as a limit as to how long you should strive to detain someone as sec or otherwise.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Shellton(Mario) » #639393

In an ideal world time spent waiting for an officer to put you into a cell would count towards brig time and if the combined times waiting amounted over 10mins it would be ahelpable. But will this happen, fuck no. The simple reason is by the time the admin gets to the bottom of the issue through looking at logs talking with people etc and for this case getting the person to let you out your brig time will had most likely been up. Its not worth the effort to ahelp an issue if the issue will be solved before the admin has time to look into it.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by terranaut » #639398

why's it bad if security is put at a "gameplay disadvantage" because someone is arguing against their sentence for 5 minutes but it's good/irrelevant if an innocent player gets brigged falsely for 8 minutes
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639402

terranaut wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 9:58 am why's it bad if security is put at a "gameplay disadvantage" because someone is arguing against their sentence for 5 minutes but it's good/irrelevant if an innocent player gets brigged falsely for 8 minutes
It's not good/irrelevant if they get falsely brigged. Where on earth did you come up with that idea?
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by terranaut » #639409

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:31 am
terranaut wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 9:58 am why's it bad if security is put at a "gameplay disadvantage" because someone is arguing against their sentence for 5 minutes but it's good/irrelevant if an innocent player gets brigged falsely for 8 minutes
It's not good/irrelevant if they get falsely brigged. Where on earth did you come up with that idea?
You did
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:09 pm The point is to minimize both the time the security officer and the arrestee spend arguing over pointless legal semantics, and instead get them in the cell, starting their short sentence as soon as possible. If they care enough to argue about it (IE, they really dont believe they did anything wrong, and are in fact a good faith player) then having this policy in place will in fact reduce average time spent in the Brig because a good faith player will simply accept their 3 minute brig sentence to get out of the Brig faster, instead of potentially wasting 10 minutes arguing legal semantics.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639413

terranaut wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 11:30 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:31 am
terranaut wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 9:58 am why's it bad if security is put at a "gameplay disadvantage" because someone is arguing against their sentence for 5 minutes but it's good/irrelevant if an innocent player gets brigged falsely for 8 minutes
It's not good/irrelevant if they get falsely brigged. Where on earth did you come up with that idea?
You did
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:09 pm The point is to minimize both the time the security officer and the arrestee spend arguing over pointless legal semantics, and instead get them in the cell, starting their short sentence as soon as possible. If they care enough to argue about it (IE, they really dont believe they did anything wrong, and are in fact a good faith player) then having this policy in place will in fact reduce average time spent in the Brig because a good faith player will simply accept their 3 minute brig sentence to get out of the Brig faster, instead of potentially wasting 10 minutes arguing legal semantics.
Either you didn't read my post or you're being willfully malicious by misrepresenting what I said. I said it was a good policy because a good faith player who was arrested for what they believe to be false charges will not waste time arguing with security over it because with this policy in place, instead of making the decision to argue with security for 5 minutes over whether or not the charge is valid, players will choose to serve their sentence immediately, and then, if they feel it is worth pursuing, they will complain after the fact, either to the officer, or their superior, or maybe they could even make the lawyer relevant again and file a lawsuit. But either way, players will eat their 3 minute sentence, rather than spend 5 minutes arguing, and then potentially still have to serve their sentence at the end anyway. It reduces the amount of time good faith players will have to spend locked in the brig for minor offenses.

At no time did I say it was good or irrelevant that players get falsely imprisoned.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by terranaut » #639414

You are suggesting that innocent players simply lay down and take it when they could be arguing for their freedom because it is more time effective, especially for the arresting officer. Yeah, sure, it is time effective, but it's not right and I reject it on those grounds and those alone. Let them argue for days if they want, it's their time and you're forcing them in the situation by arresting them with what can only be bad evidence; if you had good evidence, there wouldn't be much of an argument.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639415

terranaut wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:44 pm You are suggesting that innocent players simply lay down and take it when they could be arguing for their freedom because it is more time effective, especially for the arresting officer. Yeah, sure, it is time effective, but it's not right and I reject it on those grounds and those alone. Let them argue for days if they want, it's their time and you're forcing them in the situation by arresting them with what can only be bad evidence; if you had good evidence, there wouldn't be much of an argument.
This Policy does not prevent players from spending an hour arguing legal rules with security. You can still make the decision to do so. It just prevents security from losing relative gameplay advantage when bad faith players make the decision to waste security's time.

I dont know where you got the idea that this would bar people from arguing with security. Did you actually read the thread?
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by terranaut » #639417

I have read the thread. How do you decide who's a bad faith actor and who's a good faith actor during an arrest? Why can a security officer brig some random schmuck off the hallway for 5 minutes over a literal nothingburger?
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639418

terranaut wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 1:33 pmI have read the thread. How do you decide who's a bad faith actor and who's a good faith actor during an arrest?
The security officer does not HAVE to determine if they are a good faith arrestee or a bad faith arrestee. It is completely irrelevant. The point of the policy is, if someone commits a crime, if they get dragged to the brig over it, if they choose not to argue it, they get their 3 minute sentence. If they choose to argue over their offense, whether in good faith (they legitimately think they did nothing wrong) or in bad faith (They are trying to waste security's time so their metafriend can steal shit from engineering across the station), at the end of the argument, they still get put in the brig cell for 3 minutes, unless of course they successfully argue their case and get released, in which case they serve no sentence beyond the time they spent in custody.

With the suggested policy in place, a rational good faith player will either make the decision not to argue their case at all in order to reduce their time spent in the brig to the bare minimum, OR if they feel wronged or just want to argue they are still completely free to do so. In the first case it will benefit good faith players by minimizing the time they spend with security, in the second case where they do wish to argue, there will be no difference between the current situation on the station.

However, a bad faith player will be less likely to make the decision to waste security's time, because they will still have to serve their sentence in the end anyway when the secoff is done explaining everything to them, so arguing with security in order to be a shitter is a less valuable gameplay decision.
terranaut wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 1:33 pm Why can a security officer brig some random schmuck off the hallway for 5 minutes over a literal nothingburger?
Not sure what you're asking here. Are you asking why security can arrest people for minor offenses at all? Because that would be a completely separate policy discussion.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by terranaut » #639419

Okay, let me try this approach. Imagine the following the scenario:
I get arrested for a crime I know I didn't commit that the sec officer assumes I committed for any amount of reasons; not really relevant here. He drags me to the brig and wants me to do 5 minutes of hard time in the clink.
I have two options:
One: Suck it up and spend 5 minutes shitposting in OOC and leave. I lose 5 minutes, the sec officer loses nothing. He walks away feeling he did a good job and will likely continue this behavior in the future since his actions weren't contested.
Two: Piss and shit and fart and yell. The officer will be anything between amused because he gets to argue with his prisoner which he might enjoy up to being frustrated because he feels like he is entitled to spend his time in better ways from other prisoners being "smart" and not contesting his bad arrests.
Do you understand now why I think this is bad policy?
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639420

terranaut wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:08 pm Okay, let me try this approach. Imagine the following the scenario:
I get arrested for a crime I know I didn't commit that the sec officer assumes I committed for any amount of reasons; not really relevant here. He drags me to the brig and wants me to do 5 minutes of hard time in the clink.
I have two options:
One: Suck it up and spend 5 minutes shitposting in OOC and leave. I lose 5 minutes, the sec officer loses nothing. He walks away feeling he did a good job and will likely continue this behavior in the future since his actions weren't contested.
Two: Piss and shit and fart and yell. The officer will be anything between amused because he gets to argue with his prisoner which he might enjoy up to being frustrated because he feels like he is entitled to spend his time in better ways from other prisoners being "smart" and not contesting his bad arrests.
Do you understand now why I think this is bad policy?
I feel like there is a fundamental miscommunication going on between us here.

This policy does NOT prevent you from arguing with security if you feel that your arrest was unjust, unlawful, or incorrect, and does not punish you in any way for making such arguments.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Nabski » #639421

I love this thread because it's like people on moving sidewalks going in and they keep hearing conversations of people that are going to other direction. You're all in the airport and very concerned about not being late. One person is going to Jamaica, one to Dayton Ohio, and the last to their shift at the Dunkin Donuts.

Predition: "We do not feel the security rulings at this time need to change. If an officer is abusing their position of authority feel free to note it, and if admins notice a trend of bad behavior from the officer they can be noted for it"
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by terranaut » #639423

I am not saying it prevents me from arguing and it does, in fact, punish me for not arguing - One, I just lose time for no reason other than that a guy in red thinks I should and it's "smarter" for me to accept it. Two, as more and more players just accept bad arrests because it is "smarter" to do so, server culture will gradually shift and security players will become more and more accustomed to being able to just lock players up with barely any evidence and they in turn will cry if somebody tries to fight it.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639425

terranaut wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:54 pm I am not saying it prevents me from arguing and it does, in fact, punish me for not arguing - One, I just lose time for no reason other than that a guy in red thinks I should and it's "smarter" for me to accept it. Two, as more and more players just accept bad arrests because it is "smarter" to do so, server culture will gradually shift and security players will become more and more accustomed to being able to just lock players up with barely any evidence and they in turn will cry if somebody tries to fight it.
This in no way encourages bad arrests, promotes bad arrests, or allows bad arrests. If you feel like a security officer is abusing their position, you should be raising that issue with their superior officer, the captain, or an admin if necessary.
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Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by oranges » #639559

Nabski wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 5:59 pm Arguing legal semantics is more fun than sitting in a cell.

I'd rather spend 6 minutes going back and forth on why it's completely fine that I had a bloody saw in my bag and the hand teleporter followed by 3 minutes in a cell, than 3 minutes sitting wordlessly buckled to a bed.

The true crime is someone who rather than interacting with you in any verbal manner just searches you down to the deepest marrow of your bones, ignores everything you say, THEN throws you in the cell.
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XivilaiAnaxes
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Byond Username: XivilaiAnaxes

Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #639614

Honestly my favourite part of this post upon review is very quickly glossing over the fact that the guy was released over time served because the crew was going to burn down sec otherwise. It wasn't policy that made it happen, but player interaction.

The answer to this apparent problem that players are playing a roleplaying game is "I want policy made so that those players have to suck it up and let me do what I want", eliminating the interaction outside "lmao sucks to be you go back in the cell or i ahelp".

Security law interpretations are left more or less vague because it lets the players decide the story, which makes it more dynamic and interesting. This is also why silicon policy sucks.
Stickymayhem wrote:Imagine the sheer narcisssim required to genuinely believe you are this intelligent.
Imitates-The-Lizards
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:28 am
Byond Username: Typhnox

Re: Time spent in custody should not count towards your sentence for minor offenses.

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #639641

XivilaiAnaxes wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 10:00 am Honestly my favourite part of this post upon review is very quickly glossing over the fact that the guy was released over time served because the crew was going to burn down sec otherwise. It wasn't policy that made it happen, but player interaction.

The answer to this apparent problem that players are playing a roleplaying game is "I want policy made so that those players have to suck it up and let me do what I want", eliminating the interaction outside "lmao sucks to be you go back in the cell or i ahelp".

Security law interpretations are left more or less vague because it lets the players decide the story, which makes it more dynamic and interesting. This is also why silicon policy sucks.
You know what? You're right.

It's better left up to roleplayers roleplaying and letting the players and crew decide what happens during the shift.
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