Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

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Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Drag » #643196

After both the policy bus and coderbus meetings the general consensus was TG was interested in going in a direction where heads were more meaningful/impactful to the round. I want to hear more thoughts on this, discuss.

Some food for thought:

Do we want administration to warn all heads of staff who do not show ample game knowledge? For example, a CE not knowing how to set up a basic SM setup without causing a delam, so the admin tells this player to play the station engineer role until they learn how to set up the engine.

Do we want the same level of standards for MRP and LRP?

What kind of things/access should only heads of staff have access to? This could be anything from unique and improved gear onwards.

What kind of traitor objectives could we give to heads of staff that could challenge them? As it stands now people are vying for the removal of traitor, blood brother, and theif because it's seen as "easy mode".

Authority and respect are a social aspect of the game, should heads of staff have to earn this respect to keep control of their departments or should enforcement of this respect lay partially on admins. We already enforce metaprotections on valid demotions.

If we want to enforce a higher standard of game knowledge for heads of staff, should we raise the time required to play before you can unlock these roles? If not what other alternatives could we implement?

As it stands the only time a head of staff "matters" is when a revolution is active, what things could we change or add that could make them more useful without it being required?
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by sinfulbliss » #643209

Drag wrote:Do we want administration to warn all heads of staff who do not show ample game knowledge?
It would be good if extreme incompetence is punished to some degree. Not necessarily a serverban or a note, since it's distinct from a rulebreak, but maybe a head ban for a while from that particular department. A way to reset their hour requirement to play as that head would be effective too. This is the single biggest hurdle preventing people from actually trusting or listening to heads - when they act without having the station's (or their department's) best interests in mind.
Drag wrote:Do we want the same level of standards for MRP and LRP?
I think it should be stronger on MRP. Hard to say exactly how, but just for instance - if a head of staff decides to forcibly demote someone, perhaps on LRP with ample reason they'd be allowed to resist and even take measures to retaliate. On MRP maybe they wouldn't. This has some issues still but it's hard to think of concrete differences in application.
Drag wrote:What kind of things/access should only heads of staff have access to? This could be anything from unique and improved gear onwards.
This is in a good place right now. Heads all have brig access, maint access, and access to command areas. They all get the strongest melee weapon in the game roundstart (a telebaton), as well as powerful items unique to their department. Moving some of their special items to their roundstart kit instead of their lockers would be a good change though.
Drag wrote:Authority and respect are a social aspect of the game, should heads of staff have to earn this respect to keep control of their departments or should enforcement of this respect lay partially on admins. We already enforce metaprotections on valid demotions.
If heads of staff are allowed to be terrible, players shouldn't have to respect and entrust them with any authority whatsoever by default. They should need to earn it. That said, if this is changed and heads of staff aren't allowed to be terrible, then it would stand to reason the only heads of staff playing are solid ones, and we'd be able to give heads of staff default authority and respect automatically.
Drag wrote:If we want to enforce a higher standard of game knowledge for heads of staff, should we raise the time required to play before you can unlock these roles? If not what other alternatives could we implement?
This is the hardest question by far because it boils down to: is a bad head of staff better than no head of staff? In some cases yes, in other cases no. As long as they're not actively causing issues or filling the slot someone else might take, I'd say in almost all cases it's better to have a bad head than no head. A funny alternative would be to give players with more hours as that particular head job greater priority for rolling it. Raising the required hours might be good to test - if it ends up reducing the heads of staff to harmfully low numbers, it could always be reverted.
Drag wrote:As it stands the only time a head of staff "matters" is when a revolution is active, what things could we change or add that could make them more useful without it being required?
Incorporating skills/implants would be cool. Making the heads have certain advantages applied to their department that the rest don't. E.g. the CMO could do surgery faster, the CE could spawn with an RCD (and/or meson vision?) roundstart, the HoS could cuff people faster, the QM could have "extra strong" hands that have the same benefit as H.A.U.L gloves, etc.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Pandarsenic » #643234

i would suggest that heads should be able to teach their department to people in it, but then I look at Chem or Toxins or Atmospherics and I'm like "Well, that's not really realistic to ask, now is it"
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by bastardblaster » #643235

I don't think players will give their respect and subordinate status to their heads as long as heads have the chance of being an antag
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Shadowflame909 » #643236

What matters in this game of ss13 is two things.

1. Paranoia

2. Roleplay Potential

So head of staff getting powerful tools to curb paranoia and bring people together in their department, while creating roleplay potential for MRP would be a good thing.

TLDR: give the HoP the ability to remotely disable IDs with a tablet in his bag/the id console. Curbs antags and causes conflict with non antags

TLDR 2: All heads need to be loaded with gamer tools (Which they are) but more is always good
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by terranaut » #643248

ardentarclight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:18 am I don't think players will give their respect and subordinate status to their heads as long as heads have the chance of being an antag
that never is and never has been the issue
if anything the idea that your boss could just murk you because you called him an inept moron or spend some departmental ressource on something he told you not to spend it on favors the other side of your argument.
people dont respect heads because heads are mostly played by incompetent players and/or assholes who think that the title innately comes with the respect they want and demand.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #643266

This is just my subjective experience, but... I always feel respected as a head of staff. Well, 99% of the time anyway. I've had "that shift", but who hasn't?

But I meet the requirements of knowing every department except science inside and out (I even have a cute note for teaching atmos to a new player!).

I mean, all you have to do is only give out reasonable orders, and be willing and able to help or teach your staff, and they will respect you.

I guess what I'm getting at here is, heads of staff are fine in terms of respect. If your department staff dont respect you, most likely you are the issue, either because you're being a tyrant, lazy, or you are incompetent. And I dont think we should try to change the fact that bad heads of staff are not respected - why should they be?

If you really want to increase the competency level of heads of staff, the single best change you could make would be to allow nonhumans to become heads of staff. Why? Because a lot of long term experienced static players would rather be a felinid or a plasmeme or a lizard than a human head of staff.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Redrover1760 » #643268

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:44 pm
If you really want to increase the competency level of heads of staff, the single best change you could make would be to allow nonhumans to become heads of staff. Why? Because a lot of long term experienced static players would rather be a felinid or a plasmeme or a lizard than a human head of staff.
I mean, its 100% true. A lot of the reason why I don't play head of staff is that I'm too busy playing a moth, lol. Sadly, it also breaks the revs dynamic from heads getting asimov protection, so that's probably never gonna happen.

Outside of that, I don't really know. Charisma is apart of the game, and you can't really enforce that. I think increasing the playtime requirement before being able to play is a good idea, as having people more used to having decent heads of staff really help when a good one shows up and takes charge, because people are already in the motion of not completely ignoring shitty heads of staff and will give their head of staff more of a chance to really earn their respect.

Basically, the less shitty heads of staff, the more then good ones and the game profits from it.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Drag » #643272

ardentarclight wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:18 am I don't think players will give their respect and subordinate status to their heads as long as heads have the chance of being an antag
I feel like this point is invalidated when you change out job roles in this sentence:
"I can't trust the cmo/rd/cr/hop because they can roll antag"
For:
" I can't trust the md/scientist/engineer/service roll because they can roll antag."

I've had many cases where I as an antag (I've done this three times actually) created large scale mutinies against security and the captain because I proved to be a more competent head of staff. You can still be an antagonist and still earn the respect of the crew
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Drag » #643299

I have an additional food for thought question:

MRPs roleplay rule three states:

Chain of command and security are important.

The head of your department is your boss and they can fire you; security officers can arrest you for stealing or breaking into places. Unless they're doing something unreasonable, such as spacing you for spraying graffiti on the walls, you shouldn't freak out over being punished for doing something that would get you fired or arrested in real life. This also means that if you're in the chain of command, and especially if you're in Security, you're expected to put in some effort and do your job.

Should this rule be enforced more? Should any addendums be added to give MRP admins more ability to perform quality control?
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #643517

Heads of staff should be required to say good morning when the AI greets them at the start of the shift in command channel
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by CaptainKawoppi » #643562

Heads of staff are in a good position to look out for their department members and solve problems. If somebody gets robbed you can use the telebaton to take back any stolen items and stick up for bullied crew. And if equipment goes missing you have more than enough starting cash to buy replacements. It would be nice if this could be encouraged somehow. It makes it feel like the head of staff is making a real difference, both to the head and the department member. Although for this to happen a head of staff needs to be actively looking for problems, or a department member needs to notify them. I think HoP works pretty well with this. They have a helpdesk where you can find them in person, and they have enough free time to stick their nose in other people's business.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by TheFinalPotato » #643567

Separation between codebase and server is absolute
That said I like the idea of giving them more policy backing to control their dept, so go off king
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by ZeroMODE » #644378

I've noticed a bit of a trend between competent head rounds and incompetent/nonexistent head rounds in that there's a bit of a difference in how many shitters there are, or how many people tide into stuff because they don't have the opportunity to ask someone (or get in trouble because they didn't ask their head or something idk)
depending on the hos in particular I either spend the round wondering why nobody's watching the armory or I'm in a corner bucklecuffed getting fed shoes by all of sec at once!
The heads probably stand as some form of example as they're literally peoples' managers. :?
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Drag » #644469

Right, this thread has sat a little while so I'm gonna go ahead and make two pitches for headmins to review.

My pitches are as follows:

1. Allow admins to have the power under rule 0 to intervene when a head of staff shows a noticeable lack of game knowledge and encourage that player to use the roles underneath the head of staff until their game knowledge improves. However, no actual administrative action should be taken, as learning in a healthy and meaningful way is key to cultivating players into better players. Invoking this clause is entirely the responsibility of the admin who uses it, and they are responsible for any consequences it may bring.

2. Allow admins to take minor administrative action, nothing above the severity of a note, for heads of staff that are purposely "grief" heads of staff, to discourage behavior that harms the round as a whole. For example, a hop who intentionally alters another player's ID to mess with them, such as adding a job title that insults them. Again, this is entirely on the admin who invokes this and they must have justification for stopping potential purely in-character conflict.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by terranaut » #644471

you don't need any rule or policy change for 1.
you can already encourage people to do what's best for the game
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #644473

Drag wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:20 am Right, this thread has sat a little while so I'm gonna go ahead and make two pitches for headmins to review.

My pitches are as follows:

1. Allow admins to have the power under rule 0 to intervene when a head of staff shows a noticeable lack of game knowledge and encourage that player to use the roles underneath the head of staff until their game knowledge improves. However, no actual administrative action should be taken, as learning in a healthy and meaningful way is key to cultivating players into better players. Invoking this clause is entirely the responsibility of the admin who uses it, and they are responsible for any consequences it may bring.

2. Allow admins to take minor administrative action, nothing above the severity of a note, for heads of staff that are purposely "grief" heads of staff, to discourage behavior that harms the round as a whole. For example, a hop who intentionally alters another player's ID to mess with them, such as adding a job title that insults them. Again, this is entirely on the admin who invokes this and they must have justification for stopping potential purely in-character conflict.
Is there anything preventing admins from doing these things right now?
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Drag » #644501

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:26 am
Drag wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:20 am Right, this thread has sat a little while so I'm gonna go ahead and make two pitches for headmins to review.

My pitches are as follows:

1. Allow admins to have the power under rule 0 to intervene when a head of staff shows a noticeable lack of game knowledge and encourage that player to use the roles underneath the head of staff until their game knowledge improves. However, no actual administrative action should be taken, as learning in a healthy and meaningful way is key to cultivating players into better players. Invoking this clause is entirely the responsibility of the admin who uses it, and they are responsible for any consequences it may bring.

2. Allow admins to take minor administrative action, nothing above the severity of a note, for heads of staff that are purposely "grief" heads of staff, to discourage behavior that harms the round as a whole. For example, a hop who intentionally alters another player's ID to mess with them, such as adding a job title that insults them. Again, this is entirely on the admin who invokes this and they must have justification for stopping potential purely in-character conflict.
Is there anything preventing admins from doing these things right now?
In a way, both yes and no.

Admins have warned chief engineers about not knowing how to properly handle the engine. However, the issue I have is that this is not standardized in any form. A lack of game knowledge isn't and will never be against the rules, sometimes this is enough reason to not intervene at all. What I'm really asking the head admins is: Do they think we should standardize warning all heads of staff more, even though lack of game knowledge isn't in itself bad, and essentially where the line should be drawn. I spoke to Timber briefly on this topic last night and stealing a point they made how more respect and responsibility for heads of staff manifests is very important. Good command players can quite literally shape how a round goes, but at current, it also draws bad or flat out incompetent heads of staff because of the gear offered to only heads of staff. Which, again, isn't against the rules. But we also want better heads of staff, but it's not against the rules to be bad,,,,but we want good heads of staff,,,,but being bad isnt bad,,,

Admins already have the power to do this. I'm more stating the obvious and attracting the input from the head admins, I want to know if they encourage admins to flex their powers more in a formalized response in regards to heads of staff.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #644510

Drag wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:54 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:26 am
Drag wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:20 am Right, this thread has sat a little while so I'm gonna go ahead and make two pitches for headmins to review.

My pitches are as follows:

1. Allow admins to have the power under rule 0 to intervene when a head of staff shows a noticeable lack of game knowledge and encourage that player to use the roles underneath the head of staff until their game knowledge improves. However, no actual administrative action should be taken, as learning in a healthy and meaningful way is key to cultivating players into better players. Invoking this clause is entirely the responsibility of the admin who uses it, and they are responsible for any consequences it may bring.

2. Allow admins to take minor administrative action, nothing above the severity of a note, for heads of staff that are purposely "grief" heads of staff, to discourage behavior that harms the round as a whole. For example, a hop who intentionally alters another player's ID to mess with them, such as adding a job title that insults them. Again, this is entirely on the admin who invokes this and they must have justification for stopping potential purely in-character conflict.
Is there anything preventing admins from doing these things right now?
In a way, both yes and no.

Admins have warned chief engineers about not knowing how to properly handle the engine. However, the issue I have is that this is not standardized in any form. A lack of game knowledge isn't and will never be against the rules, sometimes this is enough reason to not intervene at all. What I'm really asking the head admins is: Do they think we should standardize warning all heads of staff more, even though lack of game knowledge isn't in itself bad, and essentially where the line should be drawn. I spoke to Timber briefly on this topic last night and stealing a point they made how more respect and responsibility for heads of staff manifests is very important. Good command players can quite literally shape how a round goes, but at current, it also draws bad or flat out incompetent heads of staff because of the gear offered to only heads of staff. Which, again, isn't against the rules. But we also want better heads of staff, but it's not against the rules to be bad,,,,but we want good heads of staff,,,,but being bad isnt bad,,,

Admins already have the power to do this. I'm more stating the obvious and attracting the input from the head admins, I want to know if they encourage admins to flex their powers more in a formalized response in regards to heads of staff.
Well, you said it yourself. Admins already warn heads of staff for not knowing how to do their job, and in addition, heads of staff get the message at the start of the shift stating they're important roles for round progression (So dont suicide roundstart!). I think based on these two facts, it's very clear that we already have precedent for warning people for not being competent at head of staff, and we already have precedent that there are higher expectations for heads of staff.

Seems like a pretty clear case of "already the policy" to me, but it wouldn't hurt to hear what the headmemes have to say. But I would support something like a note for a cmo who didn't know how to do a bruise tending surgery already under existing current policies. Or a CE who couldn't set up the engine.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Nabski » #644625

Being able to put funny typos on ID cards as a HOP should be a protected activity and drag should be sent to jail for suggesting otherwise.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by carshalash » #644833

Heads of staff are those dudes that want to be acting captain antag.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Drag » #644969

carshalash wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:37 am Heads of staff are those dudes that want to be acting captain antag.
Do you have anything meaningful to add to this conversation or?
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by iamgoofball » #644973

make heads of staff non-antag and make fucking with head of staff demotions a punishable offence thanks
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Misdoubtful » #651000

Are there any updates as to whether or not rule 5 will have an adjustment regarding this?

Or if the RP rules will get a clause regarding it?
5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role require a minimum amount of effort; generally considered to be not logging out at or near roundstart.

Notify admins if you cannot play these roles and must leave near round start and make an attempt to inform other players IC as well for head of staff or AI roles. Abuse of a job position, particularly Rule 1 breaking abuse, is not allowed.

Rule 5 Precedents

Minimum levels of effort for heads of staff, silicon roles, and team antagonist generally include not logging out/going AFK at or near round start due to the importance of those roles within the round for progression. Constant logging out or going AFK may be given warnings by admins, and may progress to jobbans.
Ghosting out, going AFK, suiciding, or logging off when converted to a team antagonist position can result in warnings from an admin; extending to bans for repeated behaviour from an individual. This also extends to when Command/Security mindshield implanting an individual to their side in said modes. At most within team antagonist, it is expected players to not maliciously harm their team's progress and assist if they are able to the best of their abilities.
Let an admin know if you cannot or do not want to play any of the above mentioned roles. Admins will attempt to transfer the role to someone else. Obviously, if an admin does so for a player, the player must not use knowledge of that antagonist position existing.
Abuse of position; as in being deliberately incompetent or malicious in their position is not allowed. Deliberate incompetence or malice can result in warnings or bans, depending on severity. Example would be a chemist constantly abusing the position to make space lube and lubing hallways, they may be warned and then jobbanned if further abuse happens.
I'll adhere to whatever the rules say on this one, as of now, that means rule 5 as it is.

That minimal effort is truly minimal. Borderline zero effort.

Warning people seems a bit strange in an environment where we do not have a whitelist, and partly because its a new concept to me for TG. Others servers do have bits like:
... you will be expected to play to a higher standard of roleplay, seriousness and competence. You may be Jobbaned from Command if you fail to meet these standards, or if you ignore your duties.
In atmospheres where this sort of thing is regulated, it does tend to trickle down to the rest of the community.

Gear and access is easy to circumvent, and many items that were once head only are now widely available. Consider power tools and the RCD, things that at one point ONLY the CE had, and only one set existed.

Traitor objectives are one thing to consider, but what about departmental objectives? Department wide initiatives that will require multiple people to reasonably complete that would net a boon for the department. There is a big push on department to department interaction, but what about inter-departmental interactions? Many things can be tackled by a party of one in departments right now, and there is nothing preventing that.

Time spent in job roles isn't really the best indicator of skill however. Whitelists are being proof of knowledge and a desired style.

Consider the following back when departmental tracking was a new thing that got ported here: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/7020

Just off the top of my head thoughts, and a thread bump.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Timberpoes » #651030

I would absolutely support the standard expected of head roles being raised beyond "don't log out without telling the admin team first". Even if it was just "You have a department, try your best to lead it" style of stuff. But that would be a major change to LRP - I think we're already aligned with this general goal vis-a-vis Head roles on MRP, what with them already having way more expectations.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by EmpressMaia » #651061

There's alot of really good player that would roll for heads if non humans were allowed to hold command positions, even if that messes with Asimov I think it could add some fun flavor. Like yeah your a non human and maybe harmed a human, but you are overseeing medical and are reviving people so you can do you for now until I can get my grubby lil silicon mitts on you.

Increasing the play time requirement is good, I especially think captain should require more hours saying as if seen alot of very bald and incompetent captains as of late.

I don't think completely barring heads from antag status is the solution as the paranoia of your boss being out for you can be fun, however I think the chances for heads to be antags should be lowered. This way the paranoia is increased because you won't have a blood thirty boss every other shift
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by spookuni » #657304

This thread has been added to the set of policy discussions we'll probably be running through policy bus sometime in the (hopefully near) future.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by spookuni » #657901

This thread has been added to policy bus, and will be additionally be discussed in discord for the next few days.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by oranges » #658079

It's also quite a bit harder to effectively do this in code, since it's a social problem
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by TheLoLSwat » #660498

This can start small, with things that are obvious being added to policy, such as cap having to put an effort to protecting disk (ofc centcomm should send a message or two IC to see if captain just forgot it) or CE causing and not knowing / not caring to fix a simple delam roundstart.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by BrianBackslide » #660506

I like the idea of heads being allowed to be incompetent. It mirrors reality in a lot of (unfortunate) ways. If head competence were required, though, where would you even start for a baseline? Atmospherics is wizardry, and Plumbing is damn close to that if you care about purity. I'd be wary of playing a head if I were having to constantly look over my shoulder wondering if I'm going to get a bwoink for not following a player's (or admin's) standard. As a filthy service main, the HoP rarely even interacts with their department. Would that interaction become enforced? Are admins going to be required to monitor heads for performance along with their other duties? Seems like a lot of work.

Some heads recognize they have no capacity and allow their team to do what they need to do, some heads are an active hindrance to their team, and some heads have both managerial and technical skills. They add flavor to rounds in different ways and I think it'd be a detriment to enforce game knowledge. Playing dumb is good for the game and good for the RP.

Paranoia is important and a part of the game. I want to be able to look at my boss and wonder if they're just dumb, or if they're being incompetent on purpose for other motives. If I know that game knowledge is being enforced, then, no matter how hard I try to ignore it, the meta understanding is going to kick in. Then you get into the rigamarole of "how much should I be suspecting this guy before I catch a bwoink?" I think the experience is lessened, much like when the chef leaves the kitchen roundstart and never comes back and, come on, you just KNOW.

As much as I agree that heads need to be important, please let players be dumb. As long as they aren't blowing up the SM 15 minutes in, burning down toxins, or declaring cargonia independent, of course.

And for god's sake, take away the telebaton. They don't need a free stunstick.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Screemonster » #660512

HRP admin here. Take my advice with the appropriately large pinch of salt and consider whether it's appropriate for your server and playerbase, etc.

Our equivalent policy for this situation is under the rule "create and play server-appropriate characters", equivalent to manuel's rule 9, with the following bulletpoints in the long version:
  • A player must take into account the qualifications (both physical and mental) of their character’s role before placing them into it. If staff find your character to be unsatisfactory in fulfilling the requirements of the role, we may instruct you to revise your character.
  • We reserve the right to ban players from jobs who repeatedly fail to perform to an acceptable standard until we're confident that they will be able to perform the job in question. For instance, joining as Site Manager but never doing anything related to that job over multiple shifts.
the tl;dr is really that a CE that doesn't even know how to set the engine isn't a character that could realistically land or keep that job, and therefore would not be appropriate.
Drag wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:34 pm MRPs roleplay rule three states:

Chain of command and security are important.

The head of your department is your boss and they can fire you; security officers can arrest you for stealing or breaking into places. Unless they're doing something unreasonable, such as spacing you for spraying graffiti on the walls, you shouldn't freak out over being punished for doing something that would get you fired or arrested in real life. This also means that if you're in the chain of command, and especially if you're in Security, you're expected to put in some effort and do your job.

Should this rule be enforced more? Should any addendums be added to give MRP admins more ability to perform quality control?
Our equivalent rule comes with the following caveat:
This is not a rule that lets people be fun police. If you feel that someone is ordering you do things that basically require you not to do your job, or to do your job in ways that aren't fun, or are otherwise generally obnoxious, then contact an admin for a second opinion.
  • This applies to crewmembers ordering silicons around just as much as it applies to heads of staff ordering their subordinates.
  • Ordering a silicon to play a different module is an example of an obnoxious and unreasonable order to stop doing their current job.
  • If you consistently give out unreasonable orders, you may be banned from positions with the authority to issue such orders.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Redrover1760 » #662753

Pandarsenic wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:09 am i would suggest that heads should be able to teach their department to people in it, but then I look at Chem or Toxins or Atmospherics and I'm like "Well, that's not really realistic to ask, now is it"
I've been teaching my fellow atmos players how atmospherics works for a while now, and yeah, that sorta thing is a whole dedicated round just for that... And I often only manage to explain the basics. Teaching SM is around 10 to 15 minutes at most though.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Quizmar1 » #662820

I think that rolebans should be handed out more often, or at least create a slightly higher standard for conduct for command roles. There are CERTAIN SYBIL COMMAND PLAYERS that constantly abuse people with their positions, and do really annoying things like call the shuttle at 30 minutes when there's not an appropriate reason or very slight chaos, or validhunt super hard by surgically checking hearts and stuff.

Besides that I think it would be cool if heads had some form of access control over the departments, ie giving a scientist robotic lab access. Also it might be fun if heads could give raises or rare/interesting department specific items as a reward for doing good.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by TheLoLSwat » #662822

Screemonster wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:53 pm HRP admin here. Take my advice with the appropriately large pinch of salt and consider whether it's appropriate for your server and playerbase, etc.

Our equivalent policy for this situation is under the rule "create and play server-appropriate characters", equivalent to manuel's rule 9, with the following bulletpoints in the long version:
  • A player must take into account the qualifications (both physical and mental) of their character’s role before placing them into it. If staff find your character to be unsatisfactory in fulfilling the requirements of the role, we may instruct you to revise your character.
  • We reserve the right to ban players from jobs who repeatedly fail to perform to an acceptable standard until we're confident that they will be able to perform the job in question. For instance, joining as Site Manager but never doing anything related to that job over multiple shifts.
the tl;dr is really that a CE that doesn't even know how to set the engine isn't a character that could realistically land or keep that job, and therefore would not be appropriate.
Drag wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:34 pm MRPs roleplay rule three states:

Chain of command and security are important.

The head of your department is your boss and they can fire you; security officers can arrest you for stealing or breaking into places. Unless they're doing something unreasonable, such as spacing you for spraying graffiti on the walls, you shouldn't freak out over being punished for doing something that would get you fired or arrested in real life. This also means that if you're in the chain of command, and especially if you're in Security, you're expected to put in some effort and do your job.

Should this rule be enforced more? Should any addendums be added to give MRP admins more ability to perform quality control?
Our equivalent rule comes with the following caveat:
This is not a rule that lets people be fun police. If you feel that someone is ordering you do things that basically require you not to do your job, or to do your job in ways that aren't fun, or are otherwise generally obnoxious, then contact an admin for a second opinion.
  • This applies to crewmembers ordering silicons around just as much as it applies to heads of staff ordering their subordinates.
  • Ordering a silicon to play a different module is an example of an obnoxious and unreasonable order to stop doing their current job.
  • If you consistently give out unreasonable orders, you may be banned from positions with the authority to issue such orders.
good point made here. It needs to be tweaked for LRP but simple thing such as
-CE that cant set up engine or do basic engineering tasks such as deconstruct
-CMO that doesnt know basic things about medical, like how to do surgery or cryo.
-Captain that leaves the nuke disk on the table (happens at an alarming rate)
-I dont know how HOS can actually be incompotent because at that point you would judge them for mechanical skill which is subjective.
-QM isnt a real head anyway
-HOP isnt a real head
-RD is kind of the same boat as HOS since they dont have a pressing job like CE CMO and captain.
getting bwoinks and small conversations (from admins) wouldnt be the worst thing if you want the quality of heads to improve
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by LoveMirror » #662827

TheLoLSwat wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:35 am
good point made here. It needs to be tweaked for LRP but simple thing such as
-CE that cant set up engine or do basic engineering tasks such as deconstruct
-CMO that doesnt know basic things about medical, like how to do surgery or cryo.
-Captain that leaves the nuke disk on the table (happens at an alarming rate)
-I dont know how HOS can actually be incompotent because at that point you would judge them for mechanical skill which is subjective.
-QM isnt a real head anyway
-HOP isnt a real head
-RD is kind of the same boat as HOS since they dont have a pressing job like CE CMO and captain.
getting bwoinks and small conversations (from admins) wouldnt be the worst thing if you want the quality of heads to improve
I can absolutely agree with these, but I'll add some things:
QM should at least coordinate with the RD, or make sure there's enough materials coming in so everyone can keep playing the game and do fun stuff.
HoP should open their line at least once at roundstart, preferably announcing it on common as well. LOGGING OUT of the access-editor is definitely important, too - otherwise you'll get greytide sec roleplayers.
RD should control their lackeys, and make sure some vital tech like better prosthetics are researched. Also prevent robotics from making gigamechs that drain all the station's resources instantly (at least until miners haul some stuff in).
A competent CMO should set the entrance to medbay to AA (not surgery or lockers, obv.) and definitely move high-risk surgeries to a private area (Cap, heads, sec-offs).
CE should also know about solars. Very important source of power that people underestimate.

Bwoinking should not be encouraged, though. A backseat-gaming admin is the last thing most people want to interact with. If you fucked up massively and delammed as a CE, you WILL get bwoinked and asked what you were thinking, but incompetence in general should not be punished.

Keep in mind that social-shaming of an underperforming head also leads to them either vacating the role, or improving. Shouting on common that "HOP JOHN GREYSHIRT IS AN IDIOT HE LEFT THE CONSOLE LOGGED IN. COME GET BRIG ACCESS" is enough to make them NEVER do that again.

Here's a novel idea, though: If you see a head who looks clueless, tell them what to do. This will help the longevity of the game and builds a better community. I help out interns all the time, as I was helped by a (now admin) chad.
Or maybe, just maybe, force heads to start with a piece of paper that lists their duties and provides basic instructions on how to act. If they don't read it, that's on them.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by MooCow12 » #662838

Extreme incompetence as a head of staff I think shouldn`t usually be punished by admins but instead punished via IC lynching, there is a difference between blatant abuse of power and authority and just not being able to do your job effectively.

There are only a few scenarios where I consider extreme incompetence from a head of staff worthy of IC escalation / Lynching though
1. Captain not securing the disk (his only job) or literally going to the edge of the station to fight warops by himself with the disk in his pocket, I feel like in that situation it shouldn`t just be lynchable it should be ahelpable.
2. Hop playing with his trapdoor and killing a lizard on icebox due to cold. (Trap door is one of the reasons why I never use hop line anymore)
3. RD accidently max capping toxins.
4. The SM delamming when CE is present.

A year ago if the CE failed to set up the sm worst case scenario other players could go several minutes out of their way to make their own source of power, if the SM was delammed on accident no big deal because the rest of the station could go on.

Now not only alternative power sources have been completely gutted (turbine,pacmans) but if the sm does even a small delam that was clearly caused by incompetence there is a risk of anomalies spawning throughout the station. The codebase is clearly going in a direction such that if engineers do not do their jobs then everyone else`s round will be griefed and the shuttle will need to be called, effectively ending the rounds of literally every single person on the server just because a small minority of players (The CE, engineers) didnt know what they were doing.

This is especially a big deal on Delta station now that Melbert moved science even closer to the SM, Ive seen the SM explode several rounds and each time it blew up scientists / their workplace. A CE letting SM delam on Delta station is the equivalent of max capping someone else`s department now and I already treat it as a good enough reason to round remove the CE.
Last edited by MooCow12 on Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by MooCow12 » #662839

Also another thing I want to add, what about head overflows? Are they held to the same standard because I`ve been tided by a group of 3 CEs abusing their gear.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by LoveMirror » #662854

MooCow12 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:36 am Also another thing I want to add, what about head overflows? Are they held to the same standard because I`ve been tided by a group of 3 CEs abusing their gear.
Isn't that just a random event and part of the game? Unless cap handed out their silver IDs to create more heads, I don't see this as a problem.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Constellado » #662861

I am going to put my two cents here to hopefully give you guys some perspective. I don't have any solutions for you guys but a perspective may help. This perspective is strictly MRP and probably does not apply to the LRP servers.

I mostly play CE in Manuel, and I am treated well and I am really enjoying it here. However! I have been told by people in discord that they will not RP with heads of staff until they prove themselves. That means if I were to change my character (haven't tested it, so take this with a grain of salt) I would be treated differently. This means I (and people new to the CE role) would have to work harder than usual to get the crews respect.

Now why would these Manuel players not RP with heads they do not know? They probably have been burned by other heads of staff in the past and have decided to not care about them. In my opinion heads should be a person you can go to if you want to RP with somebody, not the opposite. (Unless they are busy, of course)

I have found that some heads do RP, but they are being goofy, (but still doing their jobs!) which I really like and find it fun to interact with. However it seems that most players do not like goofy and wild heads of staff and wants somebody that is stable and dependable. A person they can go to if they have problems. Now, I wouldn't see this as a problem normally but the crew defaults to thinking a new head is a goofball or incompetent. So if a new but dependable, and competent head comes along, the crew will treat them badly until that is proven. This can shun a player from being a head. I have seen players give up on playing captain for this reason, and I am unsure on how that could be solved.

But to be honest I think getting bullied is part of the job and part of the game. Maybe having to prove yourself is a good thing? I do not know. It does shun players away, though.

I really hope the polls that is being done might put more light on whether players like having goofy heads of staff. It could be that the players are having a great time behind that shoving, angry spaceman.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by ekaterina » #662974

TheLoLSwat wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:35 am [snip]
good point made here. It needs to be tweaked for LRP but simple thing such as
-CE that cant set up engine or do basic engineering tasks such as deconstruct
-CMO that doesnt know basic things about medical, like how to do surgery or cryo.
-Captain that leaves the nuke disk on the table (happens at an alarming rate)
-I dont know how HOS can actually be incompotent because at that point you would judge them for mechanical skill which is subjective.
-QM isnt a real head anyway
-HOP isnt a real head
-RD is kind of the same boat as HOS since they dont have a pressing job like CE CMO and captain.
getting bwoinks and small conversations (from admins) wouldnt be the worst thing if you want the quality of heads to improve
I agree with this, though I want to add to it. However, I think that, in these circumstances, admins should intervene to teach these players, not punish them, and should make it clear that this is what they're doing it so as to avoid making the players defensive. Players who refuse to learn but keep taking head positions, however, are another matter.
  • Captains that don't secure the disk
  • CEs that can't set up the supermatter
  • CMOs that can't do surgery or use cryo
  • HoP that don't know how to change ID access or make new IDs (it has been known to happen)
  • HoS that release known threats without any precautions whatsoever (not even the basic tracking implant), or who don't know the basic things to do for common threats (mindshields for revs, holy water for cult, et cetera)
  • RDs that don't do the basic research (not locked behind experiments)
  • QM isn't a real head anyway
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Epicgamer545 » #662996

I think HOPs should have basic knowledge of service jobs and how accesses work before they should play the job. Even better if they are able to mentor cargo/service.

QMs should be able to teach QTs to do cargo. Otherwise it’s just a upgraded QT job.

I believe all Heads should be able to understand their job, learn responsibility, and be able to order their compadres to a certain degree. You don’t have to know toxins to be a RD, but you have to know how to teach someone how researching works in general. You don’t have to know advanced atmos as CE, but you should be able to teach what is required knowledge. So on so forth.

Heads are meant to control their department. If they don’t know what they are doing or barely have basic experience, they shouldn’t be a head.

However I do understand there is a difference with MRP and LRP, and I believe in MRP, heads should be more compliant. They should be responsible. They should be a mentor. However they are allowed not know things that are possibly not required to complete a shift.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by bastardblaster » #663026

Constellado wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:05 am snip
this behavior sounds extremely cringe and honestly the opposite of behavior that I'd like to see. having to ingratiate yourself with the Gang before they deign to treat you like how they would their IC superior like they'd do if an Established Player had the role is awful roleplaying, and it sucks to hear that some players have been driven off of command for it.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by LoveMirror » #663044

bastardblaster wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:50 am this behavior sounds extremely cringe and honestly the opposite of behavior that I'd like to see. having to ingratiate yourself with the Gang before they deign to treat you like how they would their IC superior like they'd do if an Established Player had the role is awful roleplaying, and it sucks to hear that some players have been driven off of command for it.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by MooCow12 » #663101

LoveMirror wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:23 am Isn't that just a random event and part of the game? Unless cap handed out their silver IDs to create more heads, I don't see this as a problem.
The PROBLEM is i dont know if they are actually considered heads of staff with authority + soft metaprotection / held to a higher standard or not.


Like for example, RD is an overflow for a round, and then one of the very many RD players asks ai to let them into upload? Could AI treat that RD like as someone with less authority and, by extension, someone who isn`t safe to let into upload. The same way an AI would deny an assistant`s law 2 request to open upload. Or does RD overflow simply mean the ai has to let a large fraction of the crew into upload if any of them ask.

Or if SM delams when there is a CE overflow, are all CEs responsible and, by extension, valid?

And, the big one, heads of staff starting IC conflicts and then calling for backup because they didn`t get their way, are overflow heads allowed to abuse their authority to tide/grief like this?
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by ekaterina » #663126

MooCow12 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:45 pm
LoveMirror wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:23 am Isn't that just a random event and part of the game? Unless cap handed out their silver IDs to create more heads, I don't see this as a problem.
The PROBLEM is i dont know if they are actually considered heads of staff with authority + soft metaprotection / held to a higher standard or not.


Like for example, RD is an overflow for a round, and then one of the very many RD players asks ai to let them into upload? Could AI treat that RD like as someone with less authority and, by extension, someone who isn`t safe to let into upload. The same way an AI would deny an assistant`s law 2 request to open upload. Or does RD overflow simply mean the ai has to let a large fraction of the crew into upload if any of them ask.

Or if SM delams when there is a CE overflow, are all CEs responsible and, by extension, valid?

And, the big one, heads of staff starting IC conflicts and then calling for backup because they didn`t get their way, are overflow heads allowed to abuse their authority to tide/grief like this?
Sounds to me like you're stressing out about something that happens once every full moon. You could just ask whichever admin is on at the time. Besides, those rounds are meant to be chaotic. Neutering their ability to create chaos goes against their very design.

I'll also take the opportunity to add that blaming the CE for the SM delaminating is not always fair, and each case must be evaluated on its own context, such as sabotage. Not setting up the SM to begin with, however, is a clear standard I think everyone can agree on.
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toemas wrote: ekaterina is really funny because they just consistently say what should be complete common sense (...) and then they get dogpiled by everyone in the thread
kinnebian wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2023 12:51 am i agree with ekaterina but in a less aggressive manner
sinfulbliss wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:03 am Marina is actually a very high quality roleplayer, believe it or not, and a pretty fun and good-faith player in my experience.
warbluke wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 3:03 am Suboptimal research play detected, deploying lethal force.
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by TheLoLSwat » #663152

MooCow12 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:45 pm
LoveMirror wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:23 am Isn't that just a random event and part of the game? Unless cap handed out their silver IDs to create more heads, I don't see this as a problem.
The PROBLEM is i dont know if they are actually considered heads of staff with authority + soft metaprotection / held to a higher standard or not.


Like for example, RD is an overflow for a round, and then one of the very many RD players asks ai to let them into upload? Could AI treat that RD like as someone with less authority and, by extension, someone who isn`t safe to let into upload. The same way an AI would deny an assistant`s law 2 request to open upload. Or does RD overflow simply mean the ai has to let a large fraction of the crew into upload if any of them ask.

Or if SM delams when there is a CE overflow, are all CEs responsible and, by extension, valid?

And, the big one, heads of staff starting IC conflicts and then calling for backup because they didn`t get their way, are overflow heads allowed to abuse their authority to tide/grief like this?
if youre a ce and the SM delams you deserve to get your shit kicked in. It doesnt matter if there are 3 CEs or 300 CEs all of them would deserve it if SM blows up since it means none of them did anything meaningful to prevent it (or they dont know enough about the SM to fix it but then why are you CE?)
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Tearling
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:40 pm
Byond Username: Tearling

Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Tearling » #663172

ekaterina wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:12 pm HoP that don't know how to change ID access or make new IDs (it has been known to happen)
This is actually rather common. Unlike other head roles where training for the role can easily be done through regular roles like setting up the SM as an Engineer... training for the main purpose of HoP basically requires you to play HoP, or as an Acting Captain. There's a good chance someone will play as a HoP before they play as an acting captain, so most of the time first-time HoPs have no idea how to change ID access.

But yeah completely agreed on the teaching part. Punishing won't cause them to want to learn how to play the job or have fun with it, it'll cause them to play a different job or, at worst, cause them to leave the server.
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Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
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ekaterina
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:40 am
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by ekaterina » #663353

Tearling wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:14 am training for the main purpose of HoP basically requires you to play HoP, or as an Acting Captain. There's a good chance someone will play as a HoP before they play as an acting captain, so most of the time first-time HoPs have no idea how to change ID access.
Not necessarily. All heads have the ability to edit access on IDs to their respective departments. That said, it's true that HoP doesn't require you to have played as any other head before.
I have a confirmed grand total of 1 merged PR. That basically means I'm a c*der now. 8-)
toemas wrote: ekaterina is really funny because they just consistently say what should be complete common sense (...) and then they get dogpiled by everyone in the thread
kinnebian wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2023 12:51 am i agree with ekaterina but in a less aggressive manner
sinfulbliss wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:03 am Marina is actually a very high quality roleplayer, believe it or not, and a pretty fun and good-faith player in my experience.
warbluke wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 3:03 am Suboptimal research play detected, deploying lethal force.
Timberpoes wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 8:50 am No deviations allowed. All must know the meta. All must power the game.
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Archie700
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Re: Heads of staff and the dynamic between the rest of the crew(Or what we think it should be)

Post by Archie700 » #663372

ekaterina wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:06 pm
Tearling wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:14 am training for the main purpose of HoP basically requires you to play HoP, or as an Acting Captain. There's a good chance someone will play as a HoP before they play as an acting captain, so most of the time first-time HoPs have no idea how to change ID access.
Not necessarily. All heads have the ability to edit access on IDs to their respective departments. That said, it's true that HoP doesn't require you to have played as any other head before.
Most heads don't even know they have that ability until someone explicitly points it out to them, so it's still possible that someone who played heads before still does not understand how to play HoP.
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