Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

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TheFinalPotato
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Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by TheFinalPotato » #647069

Hello admin team, I've got a question for you.
What should your role be in managing the "meta" of the game?

I've run into problems where literally everyone agrees a group of players are ruining the game by abusing some niche X or Y, but none is willing to ban them because of rule 4.
I'm talking about singlecaps here but this is a problem we have more generally. Everyone playing the game will agree that doing X constantly is bad, but the admin team is unwilling to take any direct action on it, because of antag freedom.

It leads to these annoying positions where the codebase needs to solve the "some people are assholes" problem, and the way we solve that sort of thing is by removing stuff wholesale.
We can't really take context into account, or handle nuance. It either is or isn't something people can do.

This isn't always the case mind, but like, if I wasn't constantly hitting well known longtimer singlecap with a newspaper the feature would either have been removed, or the game made significantly worse.

It's this sort of thing, the small sort of like "oh this is cool" -> "oh the assholes found it and now it's being overplayed" interactions that I'm asking about.

I realize that the issue here is essentially to do with the structure of the admin team. You guys are very ordered, far more then the codebase, and it has lead to a very solid record of consistent and stable decisions.
But it also leads to this like, fear of banning someone most everyone agrees is just making the game worse because "what if it doesn't stick to headmins" or "I don't want to have to pull 200 logs, handle peanut threads, and do ritual combat just to do this ban"
And yet rule 0 and 1 still do exist. Makes me think there's a sort of a sliding scale between effectiveness and structure.

Really I mostly just want to stop needing to stomp all the little niche stuff out of the game just because jerry powergamer decides to run it literally every time he rolls a role with anti-admin tech.
Coders are by nature not good at nuance, and it makes me sad to see cool shit get removed because we can't get people to stop being dickweeds.
I do think there's something else here, admins being afraid to nuke someone seems... wrong. I know there's a process to it and all, but people often don't want to do that either.

I've seen admins discuss this sort of thing in private before, but it never seems to reach a resolution. I figure a forum thread would be better at accomplishing that.

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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by sinfulbliss » #647072

If everyone is abusing singletanks when they’re antagonists and know how to make them, I don’t think that’s an admin issue. It’s an issue with singletanks being too easy to make for the effect they give. Requiring antags to “not be too much of a dick” to prevent singletanks is an incredibly backhanded way of handling what seems to me to be a codebase problem.

Last nukie round someone created like 20 e-spears and handed them out, and people suicide killed nukies. Admins will never ban someone on LRP for killing an antagonist, that’s silly and goes against a fundamental aspect of the game and why many people find it fun. The solution is to try to balance the tools so there’s not a one-stop-shop powerful option, and making the powerful options require more tact than a one-hit-kill.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Farquaar » #647074

TheFinalPotato wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:13 am I've run into problems where literally everyone agrees a group of players are ruining the game
TheFinalPotato wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:13 am I'm talking about singlecaps here
I'm being a bit myopic here, but I can count the number of times I've died to a singlecap in all my SS13 time on one hand, excluding roundend deaths. Which server is this happening on?
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by TheFinalPotato » #647075

My point is there are some aspects of the game that are cool if used rarely, but become horrible if spammed.
Singlecaps are a decent example of this because the behavior we WANT is for tanks to effectively kill you if you fuck them up, but what keeps happening is people use slow reactions to build up temp/o2 to a threshold, leading to hellish experiences.

That's why I emphasized constantly. I don't care if billy uses singlecaps once or twice as an atmos tech to cause havoc, I like that.
It becomes a problem when billy and billy's friends do it so much that it becomes the defining feature of rounds, and makes the game just infinitely worse.
I am unwilling to balance this game into mediocrity and suffering.

The same extends to other aspects of the game too, tho like I said it's a sliding scale.

For instance, that mess a few years back with kitchen bots was too far IMO, it was an overreaction from a jaded developer trying to handle jaded players, and asking admins to ban them before things settled down.
Bad on all parts, though sadly understandable for off topic reasons.

Oh and I forgot to mention this earlier but I'd like to get out ahead of this. This doesn't have anything to do with LRP or MRP, I'm asking about the general tolerance level of the admin team.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by TheFinalPotato » #647076

Farquaar wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:42 am
TheFinalPotato wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:13 am I've run into problems where literally everyone agrees a group of players are ruining the game
TheFinalPotato wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:13 am I'm talking about singlecaps here
I'm being a bit myopic here, but I can count the number of times I've died to a singlecap in all my SS13 time on one hand, excluding roundend deaths. Which server is this happening on?
The point is more general, I brought it up because that was the area I had some experience with.

For a while maybe I think a year back? A long timer singlecap recipe started getting shared around I think on sybil, and a group of players were to my understanding always using the pattern when they rolled antag.
I don't think they should get ganked for that, but something along the lines of "hey bro you're ruining the game could you tone it down" would have done a lot of good.
I spoke to some admins about it at the time, and they all seemed to hate it and thought it ruined the game, but none were willing to do anything about it for one reason or another. I see this sort of thing happen with gameplay and even just players often, and wanted to discuss it.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by wesoda25 » #647084

I’d say the best approach for this sort of thing would probably be a policy thread with significant support from the entire community (admins, players, maints). Big emphasis on maints here because without their support the feature will just be thanos snapped anyways.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by blackdav123 » #647086

warn/note/ban if one person abuse thing too much and if everyone is doing it make it more difficult via code and set a motd telling people to stop abusing this or eat a ban
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Pandarsenic » #647089

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:27 am If everyone is abusing singletanks when they’re antagonists and know how to make them, I don’t think that’s an admin issue. It’s an issue with singletanks being too easy to make for the effect they give. Requiring antags to “not be too much of a dick” to prevent singletanks is an incredibly backhanded way of handling what seems to me to be a codebase problem.

Last nukie round someone created like 20 e-spears and handed them out, and people suicide killed nukies. Admins will never ban someone on LRP for killing an antagonist, that’s silly and goes against a fundamental aspect of the game and why many people find it fun. The solution is to try to balance the tools so there’s not a one-stop-shop powerful option, and making the powerful options require more tact than a one-hit-kill.
This is where we get things like I am, broadly, not super fond of making everything cool a pain to get.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #647091

The final redpill none of you are willing to accept is that explosives always have been and always will be terrible for the game.

Anyway, on to the actual issue here being discussed - if they're ruining every single shift with their bullshit, start with a bwoink to explain your issue to them, and note them under rules 0&1 for consistently and repeatedly ruining shifts - rules 0&1 are valid rules just like any other. After that, if they don't improve their behavior, ban them under rules 0&1.

That's it. Doesn't require any code change or policy change. Rules 0&1 exist for a reason, and based on the situation as described, this is where you should use them.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by sinfulbliss » #647094

Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:40 am This is where we get things like I am, broadly, not super fond of making everything cool a pain to get.
I think the majority of reactionary code changes to nerfing cool things people are using too much were never necessary in the first place. You get 2-3 players out of a community of 300 who use the same thing every round and after a while a coder removes it, deleting it from the game for all 300 people and any others who play TG in the future. You could have just waited a while and it would have faded out of usage, unless it's incredibly broken like gunpowder smoke or batstuns.

If the handful of atmos tekkies that know singlecaps decide to make them whenever they roll antag 1 out of every 10 rounds then who cares? It's one round and the station turning to swiss cheese every few weeks from singletanks is fun and spices things up. You'd do much better to just let these things exist than to axe them or, even worse, start banning players for learning and using interesting mechanics to sow conflict and make stuff happen.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Shadowflame909 » #647096

I'd appreciate if they decided to hold the station hostage, mail it to people, feed it to Ian with the captains name on it. Some fun gimmick rather then make station uninhabitable abruptly and speedily end the round for the 300th time
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #647126

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:06 am
Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:40 am This is where we get things like I am, broadly, not super fond of making everything cool a pain to get.
I think the majority of reactionary code changes to nerfing cool things people are using too much were never necessary in the first place. You get 2-3 players out of a community of 300 who use the same thing every round and after a while a coder removes it, deleting it from the game for all 300 people and any others who play TG in the future. You could have just waited a while and it would have faded out of usage, unless it's incredibly broken like gunpowder smoke or batstuns.

If the handful of atmos tekkies that know singlecaps decide to make them whenever they roll antag 1 out of every 10 rounds then who cares? It's one round and the station turning to swiss cheese every few weeks from singletanks is fun and spices things up. You'd do much better to just let these things exist than to axe them or, even worse, start banning players for learning and using interesting mechanics to sow conflict and make stuff happen.
If there's 6 people who use it each time they get antag, and we'll say that's 1 in 10 rounds each. That's 6/10 rounds where it happens, on average.

What he wants is for people to be able to do it. But if the same thing happens every single time, it stops being fun and spicing things up. It's about encouraging people to vary their methods and actions. Encourage freedom and creativity, rather than stifling it by removing things.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by sinfulbliss » #647216

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:31 pm
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:06 am
Pandarsenic wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:40 am This is where we get things like I am, broadly, not super fond of making everything cool a pain to get.
I think the majority of reactionary code changes to nerfing cool things people are using too much were never necessary in the first place. You get 2-3 players out of a community of 300 who use the same thing every round and after a while a coder removes it, deleting it from the game for all 300 people and any others who play TG in the future. You could have just waited a while and it would have faded out of usage, unless it's incredibly broken like gunpowder smoke or batstuns.

If the handful of atmos tekkies that know singlecaps decide to make them whenever they roll antag 1 out of every 10 rounds then who cares? It's one round and the station turning to swiss cheese every few weeks from singletanks is fun and spices things up. You'd do much better to just let these things exist than to axe them or, even worse, start banning players for learning and using interesting mechanics to sow conflict and make stuff happen.
If there's 6 people who use it each time they get antag, and we'll say that's 1 in 10 rounds each. That's 6/10 rounds where it happens, on average.

What he wants is for people to be able to do it. But if the same thing happens every single time, it stops being fun and spicing things up. It's about encouraging people to vary their methods and actions. Encourage freedom and creativity, rather than stifling it by removing things.
Your math is wrong. No one plays 10% of all the rounds that occur on TG. 1/10 rounds that he plays. Anyway this is a moot point - how often do you see single caps destroy the station? Like once every couple weeks at most right?
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Mothblocks » #647220

Anyway this is a moot point - how often do you see single caps destroy the station? Like once every couple weeks at most right?
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by TheFinalPotato » #647223

It's not that solving some of those was bad, but more if admins should be :newspaper2:ing people over it. That and the more general case of the same issue.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Shellton(Mario) » #647228

idk if this is possible but you could shadow note someone who single caps or insert favor of the month shit here and after x amount of time if they get too many of the same shadow note they get a warning/note to stop repeating the same boring snooze fest i win shit. I feel like a bigger issue here is what is and isn't favor of the month i win shit. If you are scared to address it because of rule 4 then change the rule to where antags keep their freedoms but also can be punished for doing the same thing over and over.

But I really don't think this issue is that big of a deal to where you need to address it. People get bored of the same shit and move on and as long as the feature exists someone will always do it if it makes them the star of the show in till they get bored and the cycle repeats with a new person. But I really do not think this is a massive issue. I don't really think we should be scared of adding fun and slightly overpowered stuff to the game because the 0.1% Will abuse it when it comes out
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #647231

Go live on lavaland if you want none-spacial resources to rebuild the station with your hours long detailed systems at a moments notice. Admins and coders have been waging a campaign of hate against the great philosopher of the day 'Cuban Pete's confuscian esque manifesto on corporatism and the fleeting futility of investment by summarily making it explode violently.

It disrupted the game with how quickly it occured, but people didn't get hung up about it or grossly upset, because they'd been trying for a week straight to finish their departmental activities.

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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by BeeSting12 » #647568

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:31 pm If there's 6 people who use it each time they get antag, and we'll say that's 1 in 10 rounds each. That's 6/10 rounds where it happens, on average.
This is pretty bad math but I don't care enough to correct it, I just wanted to point out that the math is wrong.

Rule 4 gives antags a lot of freedom to have fun and more importantly, make the round fun for others, too. There is precedent for antags not having total freedom when it makes the game unfun though. Admins have intervened with lowpop murderbone, recalling when the station is fucked, etc. I'm almost certain players have been warned for excessively using the same murderous gimmick, but I can't think of a specific case.

If these bombs are too easy to get, then a code solution should make them harder to get. If they're already hard to get and these players have just learned to speedrun it, then good on them for mastering the game's mechanics. They should be told to be more creative with their antag rounds if they bomb the station excessively, but otherwise, they should get to have their fun. Rule 0 allows admins to interfere if it's in the good of the server, so I say this is just up to admin discretion really.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Timberpoes » #647575

In a perfect world, admins should be handling the 99% of shitty gameplay loops while the coding team should be handling the 1% of edge cases. Admins are in the best place to chew down the context and nuance behind a player's actions to decide if it was good or bad. They can curb individual behaviours without restricting the sandbox.

Every time the coding team has to put in a solution to a problem, that solution is going to be context-agnostic. As a result, code solutions shrink the sandbox piece-by-piece.

In reality, it's reversed. Admins are handling the 1% of edge cases and letting every other toxic gameplay loop survive and thrive.

However, much how the codebase can't do nuance because code doesn't care about context, the admin team cannot do consistency becase every admin views Rule 1 differently and there are too many admins across all our different servers that just fundamentally disagree on things.

Plus every 6 months a new yardstick for Rule 1 gets implemented in the form of a new triumvirate.

I think if you want admins to feel confident enough to enforce against toxic metas, you'd need to suggest a rule amendment or policy that would turn it from an unwritten rule to a written one that admins can reasonably enforce. It won't solve the problem, but it will empower the admins that want to step in to have an expressly written rule.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by spookuni » #657295

This thread has come up again in internal headmin discussions, and we've generally agreed that it's worth running through policybus for some more active community engagement, I'll be trying to find a good time for that discussion within the next few days /( hopefully not but timetabling) weeks.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by iamgoofball » #657357

spookuni wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:17 am This thread has come up again in internal headmin discussions, and we've generally agreed that it's worth running through policybus for some more active community engagement, I'll be trying to find a good time for that discussion within the next few days /( hopefully not but timetabling) weeks.
you guys literally just said you wouldn't fix it in viewtopic.php?p=657296#p657296
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Misdoubtful » #657358

iamgoofball wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:43 am
spookuni wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:17 am This thread has come up again in internal headmin discussions, and we've generally agreed that it's worth running through policybus for some more active community engagement, I'll be trying to find a good time for that discussion within the next few days /( hopefully not but timetabling) weeks.
you guys literally just said you wouldn't fix it in viewtopic.php?p=657296#p657296
One is a direct proposal for a rules change for rule 0, the other is promoting discussion of what makes for acceptable admin interactions with meta and getting everyone on the same page.

They are not the same.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by oranges » #657618

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:27 am If everyone is abusing singletanks when they’re antagonists and know how to make them, I don’t think that’s an admin issue. It’s an issue with singletanks being too easy to make for the effect they give. Requiring antags to “not be too much of a dick” to prevent singletanks is an incredibly backhanded way of handling what seems to me to be a codebase problem.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by sinfulbliss » #657625

oranges wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:21 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:27 am If everyone is abusing singletanks when they’re antagonists and know how to make them, I don’t think that’s an admin issue. It’s an issue with singletanks being too easy to make for the effect they give. Requiring antags to “not be too much of a dick” to prevent singletanks is an incredibly backhanded way of handling what seems to me to be a codebase problem.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #657633

sinfulbliss wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:28 am
oranges wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:21 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:27 am If everyone is abusing singletanks when they’re antagonists and know how to make them, I don’t think that’s an admin issue. It’s an issue with singletanks being too easy to make for the effect they give. Requiring antags to “not be too much of a dick” to prevent singletanks is an incredibly backhanded way of handling what seems to me to be a codebase problem.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Shadowflame909 » #657638

sinfulbliss wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:28 am
oranges wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:21 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:27 am If everyone is abusing singletanks when they’re antagonists and know how to make them, I don’t think that’s an admin issue. It’s an issue with singletanks being too easy to make for the effect they give. Requiring antags to “not be too much of a dick” to prevent singletanks is an incredibly backhanded way of handling what seems to me to be a codebase problem.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by oranges » #657710

sinfulbliss wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:28 am
oranges wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:21 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 1:27 am If everyone is abusing singletanks when they’re antagonists and know how to make them, I don’t think that’s an admin issue. It’s an issue with singletanks being too easy to make for the effect they give. Requiring antags to “not be too much of a dick” to prevent singletanks is an incredibly backhanded way of handling what seems to me to be a codebase problem.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Mothblocks » #660177

Bump (Bring Up My Post)
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by NecromancerAnne » #660233

There is nothing wrong with an admin telling a player consistently making the game less fun by their presence alone by overabusing a single exploit/oversight/gimmick to take a hike. Rule 4 is a respectful agreement to let antags do what they need to in order to facilitate drama without scrutiny. You abuse it to gridlock rounds back to back and you shouldn't be welcome, even if you have the funny role. Especially if someone can gleam meta information about your status from how frequently you repeat certain gimmicks.

If I could ban atmos techs abusing infinite space heat cascades as a group, you can ban people for equally shit and boring bullshit of the same degree (seriously, why did we condone a group effort to abuse bad mechanics like that just because they only did it when they had the funny T and some weird ingame code protest). Make your case known, and if dogmatic admins get on your case, tell them to fuck off. Use your words, but it should result in approximately 'fuck off'.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by sinfulbliss » #660242

NecromancerAnne wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 9:38 am There is nothing wrong with an admin telling a player consistently making the game less fun by their presence alone by overabusing a single exploit/oversight/gimmick to take a hike. Rule 4 is a respectful agreement to let antags do what they need to in order to facilitate drama without scrutiny. You abuse it to gridlock rounds back to back and you shouldn't be welcome, even if you have the funny role. Especially if someone can gleam meta information about your status from how frequently you repeat certain gimmicks.

If I could ban atmos techs abusing infinite space heat cascades as a group, you can ban people for equally shit and boring bullshit of the same degree (seriously, why did we condone a group effort to abuse bad mechanics like that just because they only did it when they had the funny T and some weird ingame code protest). Make your case known, and if dogmatic admins get on your case, tell them to fuck off. Use your words, but it should result in approximately 'fuck off'.
Issue with bwoinking antags for this sort of thing is you're pretty much just changing rules without changing them. If I run the risk of getting noted for swiss cheesing the station, I'm not going to ever swiss cheese the station. It's not just reducing the frequency of it, it's pretty much disallowing it.

You could say "well it's only rulebreaking when it's repeated" but I find that to be a massive copout. It's still noteworthy even when it's not repeated, or else admins would have no way of knowing whether it's repeated or not. So it's equivalent to being rulebreaking on the first go-round.

Coders overreact to this sort of thing though. I see no reason to nerf something outright like this unless it's being abused literally several times a day for weeks. People learn gimmicks/strategies/metas, get tired of them, and then do something else, you don't need to follow it closely and nerf it over one person. See if it actually becomes deeply seated into the meta for months and months, like the espear was, and then nerf it. Singlecaps were incredibly rare, hard to make and only doable by people who were pros at atmos (almost no one) and rolled antag as atmos (even fewer). They were rarely seen so people generally enjoyed seeing the station reduced to swiss cheese every now and again. If they don't like that kind of chaos there's always MRP where it's disallowed.

It's a massive mistake to consider every time the station gets turned into swiss cheese as "a problem for us coders/admins to fix." That is quite literally a beneficial part of the game as long as it's somewhat infrequent.
Last edited by sinfulbliss on Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Misdoubtful » #660243

I said it in another thread and not this one but...

I am always trying to mix up the meta and throw a wrench into the routine of rounds.

I'm also very focused on rounds specifically though. If I see something that is actually actively detracting from the round as a whole or people are getting too cozy with something, I will jump on it and do something, even if that usually means something behind the scenes.

Part of rule zero says, "Admins are also allowed to intervene in rounds when it is in the best interest of the playerbase.". I've also always personally been on the side of vocalizing the idea that 'Admins are also allowed to intervene in rounds when it is in the best interest of the rounds health' as well. I'd love for that be codified somewhere at some point in someway.

That being said not everyone is going to feel confident enough to jump on someone making a round suck, that's an empowerment issue, and who knows maybe its even a little bit of a process taking much time, effort, and not being as effective as it could be issue. The more ordered and structured a space is, the more taking care of people matters, and its why I think 95% of the headmin elections are gross, but thats a topic for another matter.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by sinfulbliss » #660244

Misdoubtful wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:47 pm That being said not everyone is going to feel confident enough to jump on someone making a round suck, that's an empowerment issue, and who knows maybe its even a little bit of a process taking much time, effort, and not being as effective as it could be issue.
Antagonists should be around to cause conflict. If that makes the round suck for nonantags, then it makes the round suck for nonantags. I don't think admins should be bwoinking an antag because "hey you should be nicer to people and try to improve the round instead." The antag's job to cause conflict, strife, and difficulty, and that indirectly makes the game more immersive and fun for people, even if ICly it's causing grievances.

If people aren't having fun because an antag is doing that too well, then I'd recommend they try to take the game less seriously and be okay with dying/having your round suddenly ruined by an antagonist. It's just what happens and I'd argue it's important this happens because it makes surviving and accomplishing your goals even more of an accomplishment.

For instance, one round I was a few minutes away from finishing a mix for metal h2 and nitrium. It took like 30+ minutes of hard work and effort. I went down the stairs to the crystallizer and was immediately sliced to death by a nightmare that had spawned. In the grand scheme this is a good thing. If they did this to 30+ people it doesn't matter, it's their job to cause this sort of conflict as an antagonist, and the rare times they actually manage to affect the entire round and make everyone's round suck, I'd say it actually makes the round extremely fucking epic OOCly, a ghost circle watching them in salty solidarity and enjoying the show, and a cool story of the rogue nightmare that killed everyone.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Misdoubtful » #660245

I at no point said that antagonists creating conflict makes a round suck.

Consider the things that make a good tabletop session for example. That is one of the easier ways of looking at things.

I'll spitball a few examples that different people might value:
  • Conflict/combat/bad guys being present
  • Social interaction
  • Exploration/growing content to deal with
  • A good setting
  • A story/moving plot/moving round
  • Roleplay
  • Min-maxing
  • Funny moments
  • A feeling of player agency
These examples may or may not apply to certain situations.

If something is say, detracting from a number of aspects like that (or meta is making things stagnant in a way that impacts those things), it might be worth considering if it is detracting from the health of rounds and thus not be in the interests of the playerbase. If we are looking at things like a DM/GM in a tabletop would, that might mean its time to mix things up or start a conversation.

There are far too many moving parts for me to point at an antag killing people as you described and say it sucks just like that.

But man, those continued things hitting tons of the kinds of things I mentioned above being meta, that sucks, and I will jump on rule 0's "Admins are also allowed to intervene in rounds when it is in the best interest of the playerbase." and in some cases rule 1 in those instances, even if that boils down to just triggering an event or two to run, and in some circumstances asking people to just do things less often while also giving them some other ideas on things to do.

I agree with you that there is plenty of nuance to these things, but once something is agreed upon as being problematic meta, it's more of a concern of things being acted on in this thread.

What interactions are there be taken?
Can the process be better?
What is causing people to hesitate on it?
Etc.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Indie-ana Jones » #660249

I don't trust the admin team to be good judges of this on the whole, considering what might be a tolerable style of play for one admin might not be the same for another. This sort of system would also probably hinge on shadow notes to work properly, which I think is wrong.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Dax Dupont » #660258

Historically antags have been allowed to do almost anything on LRP and using rule 0/1 is very sketchy territory to apply to what's essentially a balance problem.

This thread starts with "oh it's bad to nerf cool stuff" and i agree but single tank bombs are just more convenient ttv bombs with less if it's limitations. Why does it even exist? What's the upside of it? It's certainly not a novel feature. What nuance exists?

I'd argue that it's a bad example for this thread and that some other examples are valid. However like i said, making such a ban or note is likely to be repealed or at least contested to a point where it's just a headache for everyone involved.
It might be better to rewrite rule 4 and allow more operating area.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by NecromancerAnne » #660265

sinfulbliss wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:44 pm Issue with bwoinking antags for this sort of thing is you're pretty much just changing rules without changing them. If I run the risk of getting noted for swiss cheesing the station, I'm not going to ever swiss cheese the station. It's not just reducing the frequency of it, it's pretty much disallowing it.
Nothing has changed. We do not need suffer someones month long hyperfixation on a singular gimmick or trick they can't help but use any chance they get any antag. And we need not suffer someone doing this with some kind of agenda behind the overuse (probably forcing someone to salt remove it and ruining it for everyone else).

There are a lot of flavours of mass murder. If your only choice of mass murder is the same formula, same flavour, with no end in sight and no deviation regardless of what role you get, to the point someone will actually be able to metagame your antag status because your pattern is so consistent, you can and should be asked to do something else.

There are plenty of server and play health considerations with regards to obsessive gimmicks. But lemme be clear. This is to a degree people can and will be able to recognize your exact patterns and next move. If what you're doing is trying something and failing, or trying something a few times to get it right, that's entirely different to what I'm talking about. This is also not necessarily just broad, general actions, like murderboning in general. It's more specific than that. Like 'I have a checklist' specific. Beyond the general prep anyone does. (Like nabbing shades and meds)

Let me also be clear that this is from personal experience of doing something like this as well. For a little while, I was fixated on a particular mech setup using an Odysseus and a concealed weapon bay. I did it so much, a few rounds people pre-emptively would arrest and strip me, or try and destroy my workplace, if they so much as assumed I was a tot or saw an Ody in the bay. (Or even a ripley actually). What i was doing wasn't good for anyones experience, and definitely garnered me a negative reputation for a bit.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by TheLoLSwat » #660267

Nothing has changed. We do not need suffer someones month long hyperfixation on a singular gimmick or trick they can't help but use any chance they get any antag. And we need not suffer someone doing this with some kind of agenda behind the overuse (probably forcing someone to salt remove it and ruining it for everyone else).
to be fair, if someone is playing for 11 hours a day (1 round = 1 hour) for 31 days straight, its only 341 rounds, i saw someone throw out 1 / 10 rounds being antag so we can borrow that. but we can go even further. Lets multiply that antag chance by two (1/5) . 341 / 5 is 68.2. We can add even MORE nuance because not some antags have objectives where you either cant or really shouldnt be blowing up the station, but you get the idea

With the most mental gymnastics used (2/10 chance to become antag playing every single day for 11 hours for 31 days straight), its still only 68.2 rounds a month, which is a whole.... 2.2 rounds a day. Already a managable number but we can only assume that it drops a good margin when you stop the mental gymnastics.
There are a lot of flavours of mass murder. If your only choice of mass murder is the same formula, same flavour, with no end in sight and no deviation regardless of what role you get, to the point someone will actually be able to metagame your antag status because your pattern is so consistent, you can and should be asked to do something else.
complete IC issue. Only way i see OOC intervention is if the metagaming gets so bad that people are finding you roundstart and fucking with you but at that point its an open and shut metagrudge for any admin
There are plenty of server and play health considerations with regards to obsessive gimmicks. But lemme be clear. This is to a degree people can and will be able to recognize your exact patterns and next move. If what you're doing is trying something and failing, or trying something a few times to get it right, that's entirely different to what I'm talking about. This is also not necessarily just broad, general actions, like murderboning in general. It's more specific than that. Like 'I have a checklist' specific. Beyond the general prep anyone does. (Like nabbing shades and meds)
(more IC)
Let me also be clear that this is from personal experience of doing something like this as well. For a little while, I was fixated on a particular mech setup using an Odysseus and a concealed weapon bay. I did it so much, a few rounds people pre-emptively would arrest and strip me, or try and destroy my workplace, if they so much as assumed I was a tot or saw an Ody in the bay. (Or even a ripley actually). What i was doing wasn't good for anyones experience, and definitely garnered me a negative reputation for a bit.

i mean is this a problem? if you use the same tactic and people start figuring you out thats still only an IC issue, no? I have used the same starting strategy as tot every time, and ive started getting recognition for doing it. However, If someone (somehow lol) powergames / metagames my strat within reason (even if its just calling me out for doing it before i do it), the fault is on me for abusing the same strategy so much. Why do we need policy for something that is goverend alright-ish IC wise? Ofc if a specific thing becomes an issue thats where the big brain admins come in but until then it seems fine ?
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by sinfulbliss » #660304

NecromancerAnne wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:30 am Nothing has changed. We do not need suffer someones month long hyperfixation on a singular gimmick or trick they can't help but use any chance they get any antag. And we need not suffer someone doing this with some kind of agenda behind the overuse (probably forcing someone to salt remove it and ruining it for everyone else).
If this were true there wouldn't be a policy thread on it. Maybe on Manuel this sort of thing is bwoinked for more, but I'd need to hear it from an admin to believe this is ever bwoinked for on LRP.
NecromancerAnne wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:30 amLet me also be clear that this is from personal experience of doing something like this as well. For a little while, I was fixated on a particular mech setup using an Odysseus and a concealed weapon bay. I did it so much, a few rounds people pre-emptively would arrest and strip me, or try and destroy my workplace, if they so much as assumed I was a tot or saw an Ody in the bay. (Or even a ripley actually). What i was doing wasn't good for anyones experience, and definitely garnered me a negative reputation for a bit.
I have a completely different perspective on this: if people were assuming you were a tot and arresting/stripping you for seeing an Ody in the bay, they were breaking rules. This is OOC information. If what you're saying is effectively, "we should ban people from doing the same gimmick over and over because others will metagame it," it sounds like you're making rules for rulebreakers. Players are expected to not act on this info even if they know it.

Antag in my view is the "free to have fun however you want" pass. If someone gets super excited and happy because they can reuse their Odysseus explosive syringe gimmick for the 500th time, and they REALLY REALLY enjoy it, who the hell is anyone to tell them they need to change it up? And if it's like one guy doing it, who maybe rolls antag once every dozen rounds, and maybe plays a few rounds a day, there's really not gonna be a big issue allowing him to. He'll get bored of it in a couple weeks and whamo, the issue is resolved, no need to nerf Odysseuses because of one person.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by TheFinalPotato » #660342

sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 2:52 pm
NecromancerAnne wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:30 am Nothing has changed. We do not need suffer someones month long hyperfixation on a singular gimmick or trick they can't help but use any chance they get any antag. And we need not suffer someone doing this with some kind of agenda behind the overuse (probably forcing someone to salt remove it and ruining it for everyone else).
If this were true there wouldn't be a policy thread on it. Maybe on Manuel this sort of thing is bwoinked for more, but I'd need to hear it from an admin to believe this is ever bwoinked for on LRP.
NecromancerAnne wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:30 amLet me also be clear that this is from personal experience of doing something like this as well. For a little while, I was fixated on a particular mech setup using an Odysseus and a concealed weapon bay. I did it so much, a few rounds people pre-emptively would arrest and strip me, or try and destroy my workplace, if they so much as assumed I was a tot or saw an Ody in the bay. (Or even a ripley actually). What i was doing wasn't good for anyones experience, and definitely garnered me a negative reputation for a bit.
I have a completely different perspective on this: if people were assuming you were a tot and arresting/stripping you for seeing an Ody in the bay, they were breaking rules. This is OOC information. If what you're saying is effectively, "we should ban people from doing the same gimmick over and over because others will metagame it," it sounds like you're making rules for rulebreakers. Players are expected to not act on this info even if they know it.

Antag in my view is the "free to have fun however you want" pass. If someone gets super excited and happy because they can reuse their Odysseus explosive syringe gimmick for the 500th time, and they REALLY REALLY enjoy it, who the hell is anyone to tell them they need to change it up? And if it's like one guy doing it, who maybe rolls antag once every dozen rounds, and maybe plays a few rounds a day, there's really not gonna be a big issue allowing him to. He'll get bored of it in a couple weeks and whamo, the issue is resolved, no need to nerf Odysseuses because of one person.
Genuinely unsure what the first part of this post means. It seems like you agree with anne? Or maybe you just think salt removals from overuse aren't a thing in which case you've not been paying attention.
They're only rarer because we're running lower on things to abuse.

Re: second part, me, because it won't be him, it'll be him and the 20 other people who see "cool thing" and start doing it constantly.
Then it becomes cancer for the game, makes it horrid, and someone opens a removal pr. Then it gets removed, and people like you go on the pr and whine about how sad it all is and how the game is dying. For examples of this see all non features goof has made in the last 2 years.

If you need a concrete example of this we've been getting mild pressure, on here and in admin channels, over christmas trees spawning any item in the game.
Christmas trees are only even active from the 23rd to the 27th, but because they and santa have been spawned in at least once a day for the last month by admins who go "just once or twice, it'll make people happy!" it's starting to piss people off. This then leads to talking about code solutions, because code solutions are easy.
It's obviously not a direct analog cause one of these things is literally locked and has a much larger potential sample size, but I think it fits the point pretty well.

I realize that rule 4 is important, because needing to double think every action you do because of an OOC limitation sucks, it feels "wrong".
But I'm sick of the soul of the game getting sucked out because of shit like this. Something's gotta shift, even if it's minor.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by TheFinalPotato » #660343

Dax Dupont wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 9:17 pm This thread starts with "oh it's bad to nerf cool stuff" and i agree but single tank bombs are just more convenient ttv bombs with less if it's limitations. Why does it even exist? What's the upside of it? It's certainly not a novel feature. What nuance exists?
Singlecaps exist is because of three factors.
We want people doing toxins who mix their gas wrong and build a bomb in their hands to blow up
We want this blowing up to happen based off the existing simulation, of pressure and volume
We want things like trit fires and heat dumps to exist for the sake of fun floods or engaging atmos "mechanics"

If I could remove them without touching these three points I would have, because of the grief they caused.
I don't WANT to, never did, they're clever, fit the simulation, and make people happy to do. It's a fun aha.
But if nothing was done about them players would continue to abuse them, and admins would continue to be afraid for one reason or another to do anything about them. Longtimers were dumb on their own, but that it was critical priority to patch and watch them is silly.

I think it makes a fine example. I also realize I'm malding, but I think the point's still valid.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by Cobby » #660349

Are you trying to stop a player from doing a particular mechanic repeatedly or to stop a mechanic from repeatedly happening to the point people start looking for cutting the content?

For instance if Joe Schmoe does the funny single tank to the point of “ok knock it off” but he told other people how to do it so Sally Mae does it the next round for her first time, should Sally Mae expect a bwoink? Does she get the same amount of rounds to single cap?

The argument seems to dance between the two but they’re very different goals with different approaches. If you only address the former you’re going to have mechanics that get spammed by other people because they know it’s so strong admins had to talk to this other guy, and you will have to accept it’s going to still be spammed from the crews pov even if it’s being done by different people.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by sinfulbliss » #660351

TheFinalPotato wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:37 amRe: second part, me, because it won't be him, it'll be him and the 20 other people who see "cool thing" and start doing it constantly.
Then it becomes cancer for the game, makes it horrid, and someone opens a removal pr. Then it gets removed, and people like you go on the pr and whine about how sad it all is and how the game is dying. For examples of this see all non features goof has made in the last 2 years.
I’ve never done that and I don’t know why the hostility here. But out of curiosity I searched these up. I think the fundamental disagreement we’re having is what severity of abuse has to take place before warranting a removal. For instance, elances:
- were craftable in bulk in less than 5 minutes
- were used to instantly roundend antags for years
- were known by anyone who knew how to make a pot water grenade as a chemist (many hundreds of people over the years)
- subtly allowed for suiciding to roll midrounds
Good removal.

On the other hand, let’s take silver slime food being nerfed to be toxic:
- took 10+ minutes of concentrated xenobio effort to make
- was used by maybe a handful of people to provide food to crew that almost always suffers from no food from the chefs
- is doable by maybe a dozen people who even know about the silver slime plasma (blood?) reaction

But this was removed because a few xenobiologists did it super often to litter the halls with food because they were bored. Naturally since now it’s toxic, it’s never made anymore. That’s just a small cool thing that sometimes came up in-game getting axed, and like so many things it never needed to happen and just removed yet another small cool thing people looked at and thought “ha that’s wacky you can do that in this game.”
TheFinalPotato wrote:If you need a concrete example of this we've been getting mild pressure, on here and in admin channels, over christmas trees spawning any item in the game.
Christmas trees are only even active from the 23rd to the 27th, but because they and santa have been spawned in at least once a day for the last month by admins who go "just once or twice, it'll make people happy!" it's starting to piss people off. This then leads to talking about code solutions, because code solutions are easy.
It's obviously not a direct analog cause one of these things is literally locked and has a much larger potential sample size, but I think it fits the point pretty well.
That’s really silly especially since the issue isn’t even with the tree but with admins spawning santa who has an infinite present bag. Even still one round a day is a complete nonissue especially if it’s restricted to a couple weeks in December.
TheFinalPotato wrote:I realize that rule 4 is important, because needing to double think every action you do because of an OOC limitation sucks, it feels "wrong".
But I'm sick of the soul of the game getting sucked out because of shit like this. Something's gotta shift, even if it's minor.
To be honest me too. I would definitely rather have the odd strict admin bwoinking us for a gimmick they turned their nose up at over features outright getting removed, but I’m not super confident if admins were allowed to bwoink for this that it’d even make a difference. You’ll still have players get salty over a few rounds they played, they’ll still open the nerf PR, and it’ll still get pushed through. The only effect I see this having is letting admins have free reign to bwoink antags that rub them the wrong way.
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Re: Rule 0-1 (Admins and Assholes)

Post by spookuni » #662611

After a fair amount of discussion both in this thread and in policybus, we've generally agreed that it would be beneficial to empower admins to curtail rule 4 and prohibit players or situations where commonly repetitive use of game mechanics is starting to seriously harm the fun of the game for everyone, whether it be endlessly repeated use of highly destructive tools like bombs, SM sabotage or more simple strategies for personal murderboning or the like.

We would like to stress that this line of reasoning should be applied to *repeated* problems that are harmful to server health, and shouldn't be used because a strategy is simply disliked by an admin.

Examples of the application of this would be requesting a player who only played virology and whenever they rolled antagonist would annihilate the station with hyper-optimised kill-viruses to a degree that resulted in large numbers of rounds becoming essentially unplayable for everyone else to chill out, or requesting that an atmos-tech antagonist not use a singlecap recipe to destroy the station in 20 minutes, after this has already happened over the last 6 rounds back to back. (Though these are not the only times this could be invoked)

Spook: Agree with above
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