Make security accountable for the people they gulag

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TypicalRig
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Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by TypicalRig » #649936

We've all been there. A shitter keeps tiding and you throw him in to do some mining. He does something productive for the station and you get him off your back. Simple, right?

Well, no, not really. Not every situation, or even most, are that black and white. Innocents can be sent due to miscommunication or just poor reasoning, which is part of the game, but also despite common belief, gulag is very dangerous. A lot of admins seem to be under the false belief that demons cannot spawn on or near that side of the shuttle. Which is false. They can and will break a lot of the shit. Some of which isn't replaceable. And contacting sec while in gulag to report emergencies tends to be impossible as nobody ever listens to the gulag station intercom (does that shit even work?). There's also the weather, which can kill people unfamilair with mining, which is a lot!

I've had admin in PMs tell me it's an IC issue if officers throw me into gulag super wounded because gulag is "safe enough" only to be immediately attacked by a teleporting demon mid-PM. I've had them camp the shuttle and break a wall so even if the points are collected I'd die on the return trip due to space. There's also the fact that mining is often used for cult bases, ash walker invasions, and antags leading sentient megafauna back to the station that brings the gulag under fire. Shit is dangerous! I've ahelped sec before for negligently sending people to gulag without doing the bare minimum of checking the cameras to make sure it's in a stable condition and the general consensus seems to be that it's not reasonable to expect that of them. Meanwhile the power is out. Why? Why is asking them to do a quick camera check before sending people to a dangerous battlezone where people can and will die, only to never checkup on them, in a game where there's a huge possibility they did arrest someone on false charges, seen as acceptable?

Make it so if security sends people to a gulag that's fucked because they are too lazy to check cameras/in-person to make sure their own prison is functioning, they can and will be warned. It takes a few seconds tops. If they don't have time to do that, they don't have time to gulag someone. Another thing is to note is that I've had officers gulagging people and then admitting even they don't know how the system works, then failing to explain it so they can't even smelt ores, then collect the points. For a system that's so unintuitive, officers should be expected to be able to explain how it works if they're so quick to use it.

I don't know how it's controversial to ask officers to know how their own jail cell works, make sure it's not a death trap, and to check in on their prisoners, but apparently the bar for LRP sec is lower than I thought.
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sinfulbliss
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by sinfulbliss » #649947

You've openly said you break the gulag machine whenever you get sent there in order to increase the odds sec send someone to a dysfunctional gulag and get bwoinked for it as a result. This is pretty much the issue with your proposal. A good proportion, perhaps even the majority, of gulagged prisoners decide to break out instead. This naturally makes the gulag more dangerous for the next person to be sent there.

More dangerous, but rarely lethal. On Icebox it's more dangerous, but in most stations there's a massive lava lake separating you from anything in the vicinity. If this policy were adopted gulag would never be used, because if the prisoner happens to die due to any number of factors, the officer is held accountable. Besides, gulag is supposed to be saved for people who are being unwarranted nuisances to the station or to security (i.e. bolting brig doors FNR, interfering with arrests and stealing prisoners, etc.). If some unforeseen act of god kills you in there, chalk it up to karma.
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toemas
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by toemas » #649972

don't do things that get you gulagged
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by Fatal » #649985

The gulag is generally seperate from the rest of mining on most maps, unless that was changed?

Unless you are really unlucky it should be straight forward to just do the mining and leave? But then most people either break the machines, go catatonic, or suicide

Personally if the gulag is an absolute death trap and security are knowingly throwing you down there anyway I'd intervene already, don't think this needs to be added as an extra rule because I imagine most admins would intervene if the gulag was that dangerous (it isn't a holiday camp)

And yeah, simply don't do crimes if you don't want to get gulagged is also an option
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #649996

IC issue: the thread.

Don't do crimes, you wont get gulaged. Demon shows up? Hit it with a pickaxe.

It's not reasonable to expect security to sit there and stare at your probably SSD ass while you refuse to mine in the gulag.
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TypicalRig
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by TypicalRig » #650037

sinful: wrong. they would have the job of pre-checking gulag for sabotage, then occasionally checking to gulag to make sure the person is/isn't dead. they would not be held accountable if someone died in a functioning gulag, but they would be negligent and questionable if they never checked there again in an otherwise slow round. just like sec has to help release someone after their brig sentence is up, the same should be expected for gulag. also the lake is irrelevant. mobs can spawn on and near the lake. the lake only prevents escape for the player, not the mobs. also "it's meant to be used for" does not equate to "it is always used for and it is impossible to use it for otherwise". this take shows a poor understanding of how the game works. I already covered situations where people use gulags for poor reasons, if you had bothered to read the post.

fatal: It IS seperate. But as I've mentioned, and you've proven, admins are blissfully unaware of how deadly gulag can be. Hostile mobs spawn there or wander there and sec will often send you there already injured so putting up a fight isn't always an option. Admins DO intervene, but minimizing admin interference should be ideal. All they have to do is check cams before sending someone there. It's that easy. Nobody has given a reasonable counter argument as to why they can't be expected to check cams for pre-sabotage or mobs camping. Or do you think admins covering for players that signed up to a do a job who don't actually want to do the job is a good standard to follow? Also, I didn't say sec knowingly throw you into a death trap. The basis of the complaint is that they do not check to see if it's dangerous before chucking you there.

rest: "simply do not do crimes" is not an argument in the context of LRP because what is perceived as a crime by one person is not by another. Some will arrest a person for breaking into cargo to use the protolathe. Some will arrest for using traitor gear that they know is stolen from others. Since being gulagged is an IC issue and anything below 10 minutes is an IC issue, anything that isn't perfectly MRP behaviour could be construed as a crime.
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by toemas » #650039

Im certain that if a security officer put someone in the gulag for a shitty reason and they ended up dying then they would be punished. Its highly likely that you were just being a shitter
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by sinfulbliss » #650067

TypicalRig wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:21 pm sinful: wrong. they would have the job of pre-checking gulag for sabotage, then occasionally checking to gulag to make sure the person is/isn't dead. they would not be held accountable if someone died in a functioning gulag, but they would be negligent and questionable if they never checked there again in an otherwise slow round. [...] also "it's meant to be used for" does not equate to "it is always used for and it is impossible to use it for otherwise". this take shows a poor understanding of how the game works. I already covered situations where people use gulags for poor reasons, if you had bothered to read the post.
If you are being gulagged for a poor reason and end up dying in there, then you have a legitimate ahelp. No different than if you got perma'd for a poor reason and ahelped it. What should have been a short sentence became a permanent sentence (in this case as a corpse) - totally normal thing to ahelp that exists without this added policy.

What I completely disagree with is the idea that security should have OOC job requirements to "check the gulag in an otherwise slow round." Every job on the station has the same OOC requirements aside from heads of staff (you have to ahelp before leaving early or suiciding). If we're piling more on sec then it's a slippery slope. What if a bomb goes off near tram genpop resulting in a player that should have a 2-minute sentence getting killed and sitting there for 20 minutes before he's found? Are you really suggesting admins bwoink every single officer on the manifest for not checking in?
TypicalRig wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:21 pmjust like sec has to help release someone after their brig sentence is up, the same should be expected for gulag.
This isn't correct. The locker and windoor automatically open after the time expires, you can get your things and go. If you can't exit brig because of door access, it's the same as being stuck in literally any other department without someone there to open the doors for you. Simply deal with it, there are plenty of ways to leave without getting babysat for 10min.

Gulag is an even worse example because you don't even need someone to let you out, it can all be accomplished through the gulag system independently. All of these expectations fall under the warden's job, not things you'd threaten an ordinary sec officer with a ban for not doing.
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Lacran
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by Lacran » #650119

Gulag is what sec uses to give shitters a chance to do something somewhat productive.

Lavaland is a dangerous environment, sec has no responsibility for you once you are down there because anything that could hold them accountable and get them in trouble could also be abused by the shitters that get sent there.

That being said I do think there's is some precedent to sec ensuring gulag is not going to instantly kill them, but that's extremely uncommon and would only warrant admin interfence if they sent you there knowing it was to certain death.
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #650131

TypicalRig wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:21 pmrest: "simply do not do crimes" is not an argument in the context of LRP because what is perceived as a crime by one person is not by another. Some will arrest a person for breaking into cargo to use the protolathe. Some will arrest for using traitor gear that they know is stolen from others. Since being gulagged is an IC issue and anything below 10 minutes is an IC issue, anything that isn't perfectly MRP behaviour could be construed as a crime.
I'm sorry, are you saying you don't think breaking and entering is a crime, simply because it's commonly done? Or owning contraband? Because these are both obviously crimes.
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #650149

You should not be responsible for them in most cases since you usually reserve gulagging for people who are serially greyshitting up the round and keep repeatedly fucking with security (in most cases you could just fucking gat them anyway), so if they are being so annoying why should you be responsible
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TypicalRig
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by TypicalRig » #650168

sinfulbliss wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:50 am
TypicalRig wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:21 pm sinful: wrong. they would have the job of pre-checking gulag for sabotage, then occasionally checking to gulag to make sure the person is/isn't dead. they would not be held accountable if someone died in a functioning gulag, but they would be negligent and questionable if they never checked there again in an otherwise slow round. [...] also "it's meant to be used for" does not equate to "it is always used for and it is impossible to use it for otherwise". this take shows a poor understanding of how the game works. I already covered situations where people use gulags for poor reasons, if you had bothered to read the post.
If you are being gulagged for a poor reason and end up dying in there, then you have a legitimate ahelp. No different than if you got perma'd for a poor reason and ahelped it. What should have been a short sentence became a permanent sentence (in this case as a corpse) - totally normal thing to ahelp that exists without this added policy.

What I completely disagree with is the idea that security should have OOC job requirements to "check the gulag in an otherwise slow round." Every job on the station has the same OOC requirements aside from heads of staff (you have to ahelp before leaving early or suiciding). If we're piling more on sec then it's a slippery slope. What if a bomb goes off near tram genpop resulting in a player that should have a 2-minute sentence getting killed and sitting there for 20 minutes before he's found? Are you really suggesting admins bwoink every single officer on the manifest for not checking in?
I won't argue with slippery slope fallacies. Admins are trained to use discretion on case by case scenarios and for the most part I trust their ability to do this. Also I am not sure if you are being purposely malicious or just obtuse by using a counter example like "bwoinking every officer" when it should be evident that I do not mean this, but that the gulagger should be tasked with checking in on the situation.

Also "admin can do this, admin can do that" doesn't mean we should tolerate laxer policy that encourages more work on to the admin's part to fix for issues that should not come up to begin with. Why are you unable to take a couple seconds to look at cameras via the sec cam console to make sure the gulag is normal, since you keep dodging the question. How is this standard being expected of you detrimental to your round?
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:15 pm
TypicalRig wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:21 pmrest: "simply do not do crimes" is not an argument in the context of LRP because what is perceived as a crime by one person is not by another. Some will arrest a person for breaking into cargo to use the protolathe. Some will arrest for using traitor gear that they know is stolen from others. Since being gulagged is an IC issue and anything below 10 minutes is an IC issue, anything that isn't perfectly MRP behaviour could be construed as a crime.
I'm sorry, are you saying you don't think breaking and entering is a crime, simply because it's commonly done? Or owning contraband? Because these are both obviously crimes.
This discussion also consists of what is a gulag worthy crime, and what should simply be brigged for. Player opinion on this deviates entirely. The point isn't that it isn't a crime, but if gulagging them is justified for it. This thread is proof of that seeing as some people are specifying that it's for shitters while others are saying don't do any crime ever if you don't want to be thrown in gulag.
Lacran wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:48 am Gulag is what sec uses to give shitters a chance to do something somewhat productive.

Lavaland is a dangerous environment, sec has no responsibility for you once you are down there because anything that could hold them accountable and get them in trouble could also be abused by the shitters that get sent there.

That being said I do think there's is some precedent to sec ensuring gulag is not going to instantly kill them, but that's extremely uncommon and would only warrant admin interfence if they sent you there knowing it was to certain death.
I have never seen a scenario where sec knowingly sends people to a deathtrap gulag so I'm not going to address that as it would obviously handled by admins. It is almost always unknowingly, because they were too lazy to check cameras.
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by sinfulbliss » #650171

TypicalRig wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:23 pm Why are you unable to take a couple seconds to look at cameras via the sec cam console to make sure the gulag is normal, since you keep dodging the question. How is this standard being expected of you detrimental to your round?
First of all, this isn't a standard expected of me or anyone else. This is a standard only you have proposed in this thread. I don't check gulag cams before using it and know of no one who ever does, nor have I or anyone else I know been bwoinked for this. Sometimes I'll check after I send them there to see if they're mining or not.

Second, it's detrimental because I will not remember to do this every single time I use the gulag. If I forget and someone breaks the gulag, causing the next player I send to get injured down there, that's on the player that broke the gulag - not on me for not checking. Sort of amazing you consider it the officer's fault that someone got hurt in the gulag and not the person who spent 10 minutes crafting a spear to destroy it. Especially when you yourself admit you intentionally bust up the gulag to prevent sec from being able to use it in the future without accidentally perma'ing someone.
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by Boot » #650236

Ok here's the best thing I could think of that we could compare it to.

Let's say that you arrest 2 people on tramstation. Maybe they roughed up another officer so you toss them into general population. During this time a fight starts and one ends up dead.

Do you think that the Warden knowing that two men entering and one leaving is ok, not his problem?
What if another officer sees the body, do you think a secoff is under any obligation to take a prisoner that died under sec's watch to medical or the inbrig morgue?

I had a round a few weeks back, I think you were there sinful, where a malf ai siphoned, door shocked, and otherwise made the gulag inhospitable so they could hack the apcs down there. This could've been spotted if a single officer checked the cams right next to the tide-b-gone machine.

At the end of the day I agree that this is the warden's job, not your average secoff. I just don't like how "prisoners lives ain't my fault even if I send them into hell not my problem" attitude you're bringing to this Sinful.
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by sinfulbliss » #650241

Boot wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:35 am At the end of the day I agree that this is the warden's job, not your average secoff. I just don't like how "prisoners lives ain't my fault even if I send them into hell not my problem" attitude you're bringing to this Sinful.
The gulag is actually called the Labor Camp. It got nicknamed the gulag because it's supposed to suck. You're sent off-station in a grotty little makeshift mining camp because sec decided you were too much of an irritating shitter to even grace the brig cells with your presence.

For people like that, if some act of God kills them, I'd just call that karma. You have no humanitarian duty to fulfill towards unapologetic cancerous lesions of the station. If the roles were reversed and they saw you dead in the halls, you can bet they would loot your ID and leave you to rot as well!

Disclaimer: You should only use the gulag if the person is being a serial shitter. You shouldn't gulag for normal, run-of-the-mill crimes, not only because of this issue but because gulag sucks.
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Shellton(Mario)
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by Shellton(Mario) » #650293

Personally I feel if sec is going to gulag someone and they have wounds that need tending sec should get the medical attention first before gulagging.
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #650349

I usually decapitate people before I send them to the labor camp to avoid this exact situation.
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by zxaber » #650388

At best, these are several code changes, not really policy. Make the console show a warning and different screen sprite if any of the gulag air alarms are red/danger. Make fauna not spawn in the gulag mining area. Make a department alert if anyone on the gulag in prisoner clothes is in critical condition.
Sec has like barebones tools to actually manage the gulag currently. If sec was ever staffed (on any server aside from Terry), you could perhaps suggest a gulag officer post, but that's not the world we live in.
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by dirk_mcblade » #650555

1. I will gulag people for normal crimes (for comically low amounts like 50 or 100), and it is my right to do so unless someone outranking me tells otherwise. Criminals out of principle should repay society.
2. I do check the cams to see if the air alarm is red before doing so, because I got lynched by former gulagged prisoners for nearly killing one of them, which was based on their part and I don't want to be a dick going forward. But I'm not required to.
3. If gulagging someone is punishable, then remove the gulag as a feature. The gulag exists to be used.
4. If you get gulagged once and die, that sucks. But on some rounds you lose in SS13, that's how the game is.
5. If you commit crimes frequently enough that you get gulagged and die often enough to complain about it in policy, the problem is probably you.
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Re: Make security accountable for the people they gulag

Post by spookuni » #654632

While security officers should take basic steps to ensure that the environment they are dropping prisoners into is at all survivable (on the scale of megafauna or complete destruction, not broken windows), we do not believe that security officers making legitimate usage of the gulag to punish wrongdoing by other players should be required to babysit the safety of gulagged prisoners.

Prisoners who break gulag machinery should be aware that they are the ones most likely to find detriment in a non-functional gulag camp
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