Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

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NamelessFairy
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Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by NamelessFairy » #657169

We've not seen these used since my term, we should bring them back.

Policybus allowed for fast paced policy discussion with more back and fourth that served as a great compliment for the forums. They also helped improve transparency of policy discussion by having headmins show their thought process in full view.

We currently have policy threads falling onto page 2, an active discussion of these policy threads that involves the headmins might help to actually get responses on them if the headmins don't have strong enough opinions to form their own rulings.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Misdoubtful » #657171

Please do.

It is very telling how efficient things were regarding policy while it was in place, and very telling of the state of things now.

Being busy, having things to do, its too hard to think about right now, there is too much to consider etc., are prime reasons to be having this and its some of the simplest most brain dead """delegation""" there is. Period. At one point I was able to count I think 28+ open policy threads that had been open for MONTHS. I know I certainly don't want to see that again, and people are going to be deterred from even making policy threads if they are just going to die. Especially if they might have had some serious thought and effort put in, only to be ignored. It takes no effort to say 'this was considered but we haven't come to a consensus on xyz please revise, or whatever else in the least'.

There is absolutely no reason to NOT be letting admins come together to come up with things like drafts for headmin approval that can be 'yes or needs to be revised about x', and there is no reason to not be empowering admins to take on these sorts of projects and others in the first place.

Literally just makes the life of everyone involved easier. I know I'd like that.

Its a team effort, might as well be shooting ourselves in the foot with it being shuttered. I still can not fathom why it was removed in the first place besides 'it can get off topic, it can be hard to moderate'. Everyone can moderate and steer topics back in the intended direction. Headmins can even elect to be moderators while admins and other involved parties are invited into the space.

If it isn't the solution, then let it run and be able to accomplish AT LEAST SOMETHING while working to figure out a better program with the time now gained by letting admins do this, again.

Reasons like that, that have been given in the past are cheap cop outs and I refuse to accept them. Please choose to try harder and be better, if that is how it is going to be. I know everyone on the admin team can make it work with effort.

EDIT:

There are currently 29 (excluding this one) open policy threads dating back to as early as Jul 18, 2022.

The status quo is NOT working.


I once considered proposing that a subforum be made to place resolved policy threads in (Or one for yes and one for no resolutions), so that it would be easier for everyone to see and focus on the threads that have not been 'sealed', as well as promote accountability. Maybe even a policy template for people to follow if they so choose to make for more effective, impactful, actionable and discussable policy threads.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by sinfulbliss » #657174

Misdoubtful wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:58 pm There is absolutely no reason to NOT be letting admins come together to come up with things like drafts for headmin approval that can be 'yes or needs to be revised about x', and there is no reason to not be empowering admins to take on these sorts of projects and others in the first place.
I can think of a couple. The headmins were specifically elected to handle policy. Ban appeal reviews are part of it I suppose, but policy is the longest lasting aspect of what they do. Allowing any admin to draft the decision on policy would be moving policy decisions into the adminteam as a whole instead of the headmins, which are the people that were elected for this purpose.

They can always disagree, ask for revision, etc., but at the end of the day approving something is much, much different than making something. Most people’s standard for what they’d approve is far below their standard for what they themselves would write or say. That said I agree policybus should come back at least as a way to get discussion flowing faster than on forums.

Misdoubtful wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:58 pmMaybe even a policy template for people to follow if they so choose to make for more effective, impactful, actionable and discussable policy threads.
This part I agree strongly with. Something like [ISSUE], [WHY IT MATTERS], [PROPOSAL] would make things way easier for headmins to parse than a 10-paragraph word salad.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Timberpoes » #657175

The issue I always had with policybus on the discord was:
If you're not in the first 30 minutes of the discussion starting, all discussion has ended past that marker. The conversation was just a flash, and no headmins usually spoke anyway since they used policybus to sub-delegate discussion instead of participate.

I'd just urge the headmin team to actually post in policy threads as individuals. I feel like policybus in some ways can be worse than doing nothing at all, as you usually get an admin-led discussion that ends in half an hour and excludes anyone that isn't awake, online and available at the specific timepoint the conversation starts.

Last term I made a best-effort attempt to be in every policy post, discussing things. Especially individually.

Only doing internal discussion between yourselves is how you start to lose context for arguments other people have against your proposals and when you put your opinions out there to be challenged publicly you break the echo chamber, understand the views of others and become far more informed in your own decision making process. You might even change your mind.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by RaveRadbury » #657179

Policybus was invented to foist MRP discussions onto MRP admins because the team that made it didn't play MRP.

Along those lines it exists to delegate things that the headmin team does not feel that they have the expertise to decide between the three of them.

Any conceptualization of policybus beyond this is moving past its original purpose.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Timberpoes » #657180

Misdoubtful wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:58 pm EDIT:

There are currently 29 (excluding this one) open policy threads dating back to as early as Jul 18, 2022.

The status quo is NOT working.
Anything dating back to my term wasn't delayed for lack of discussion. People could have yelled themselves hoarse, and it wouldn't have sped anything up when we couldn't for some reason or other gather a quorum to pass an informed vote.

A good headmin term wouldn't have left such a trashheap in the policy section to the incoming term.

And that backlog my term left behind, has definitely set the current term on the backfoot. They're not just gonna rubberstamp every post I made and go "this", they'll have their own discussions.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by NamelessFairy » #657182

RaveRadbury wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:13 pm Policybus was invented to foist MRP discussions onto MRP admins because the team that made it didn't play MRP.

Along those lines it exists to delegate things that the headmin team does not feel that they have the expertise to decide between the three of them.

Any conceptualization of policybus beyond this is moving past its original purpose.
I would like to note that during my own term policy bus was used not only for topics where the headmins held no strong opinions but also for topics where me and my team wanted to see a wider discussion of a specific policy. I believe that this attitude helped elevate my term to our effective 100% policy coverage. While this may be beyond its original purpose I do not think we should regress back to its original purpose now that we have demonstrated that it works beyond that scope.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Misdoubtful » #657185

RaveRadbury wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:13 pm Policybus was invented to foist MRP discussions onto MRP admins because the team that made it didn't play MRP.

Along those lines it exists to delegate things that the headmin team does not feel that they have the expertise to decide between the three of them.

Any conceptualization of policybus beyond this is moving past its original purpose.
This isn't quite correct. Please peruse the screenshot provided as well as the channel on Discord.

Not pictured here was it also being used as a transparent place to see headmin discussion on policy, alongside other things.

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Timberpoes wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:31 pm
Misdoubtful wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:58 pm EDIT:

There are currently 29 (excluding this one) open policy threads dating back to as early as Jul 18, 2022.

The status quo is NOT working.
Anything dating back to my term wasn't delayed for lack of discussion. People could have yelled themselves hoarse, and it wouldn't have sped anything up when we couldn't for some reason or other gather a quorum to pass an informed vote.

A good headmin term wouldn't have left such a trashheap in the policy section to the incoming term.

And that backlog my term left behind, has definitely set the current term on the backfoot. They're not just gonna rubberstamp every post I made and go "this", they'll have their own discussions.
I'm honestly just flat out not interested in what happened before, I'm interested in what will get results now, and what will alleviate that backlog now, and make things easier for everyone in the future.

I appreciate that things got troubled, I get that, but I'm far more interested in looking ahead.
Timberpoes wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:31 pmThe issue I always had with policybus on the discord was:
If you're not in the first 30 minutes of the discussion starting, all discussion has ended past that marker. The conversation was just a flash, and no headmins usually spoke anyway since they used policybus to sub-delegate discussion instead of participate.
It was originally being done in a way where it would pull everyone together that was interested in the topic together at once for a big round table meeting, without the chance of drawing things out. Everyone knew it was coming and would be pinged about it. As shown in the snapshot the lack of headmin interaction was pretty intentional at the time, but that isn't exactly a set in stone 'protocol' either. Skys the limit. Why throw out a tool that can be refurbished and made even better?
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Timberpoes » #657190

Misdoubtful wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:06 pm It was originally being done in a way where it would pull everyone together that was interested in the topic together at once for a big round table meeting, without the chance of drawing things out. Everyone knew it was coming and would be pinged about it. As shown in the snapshot the lack of headmin interaction was pretty intentional at the time, but that isn't exactly a set in stone 'protocol' either. Skys the limit. Why throw out a tool that can be refurbished and made even better?
If the headmin team gave one half of one pico-iota of a care about participating in any public discussions, they would already be more than invisible on the policy forums.

I'll just pull a random example out of my ass: One of Rave's babies from their previous term was the streaming programme. They haven't done a single post in viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32546 about allowing streaming on LRP.

We have an internal Discord thread on an updated naming policy in the admin channels advanced by a headmin. Not a peep from any headmin in viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32558 yet.

The most active headmin of the lot of them is san, bless his little cotton socks for actually getting involved, making a couple of policy posts and asking the occasional question.

Call me a cynic, but I highly doubt having to air their views in a realtime discussion is going to end up with more interaction than we already see on the forums.

To me, it's frustrating to see policy threads have no headmin interaction AND are taking forever to resolve. It's the worst of both worlds.

Last term wasn't perfect, but when you pinged the headmins about policy threads I went through every one of them I hadn't posted in and put some words down about what I thought, why, perhaps even what status the policy thread was at internally.

I did the same in appeals. For better or worse, I was in ban appeals trying to guide admins and players alike to mutually happy resolutions, clarify policy, etc. etc.

I hate returning to the old status quo where headmins are neither seen, nor heard.

I can't blame Spookuni for that. We host voted them in knowing they're from Oceania and that they do have other commitments. We liked the fact they held opinions on things and those opinions were usually well-founded and well-argued, and weren't hidden. I would like to see a lot more in the public from Spookuni.

The other two I want to see as well. What's the point of running for headmin just to cloister yourself away in headmin-only channels? Be there, be visible and have some public opinions.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Misdoubtful » #657195

Timberpoes wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:34 pm
Misdoubtful wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:06 pm It was originally being done in a way where it would pull everyone together that was interested in the topic together at once for a big round table meeting, without the chance of drawing things out. Everyone knew it was coming and would be pinged about it. As shown in the snapshot the lack of headmin interaction was pretty intentional at the time, but that isn't exactly a set in stone 'protocol' either. Skys the limit. Why throw out a tool that can be refurbished and made even better?
If the headmin team gave one half of one pico-iota of a care about participating in any public discussions, they would already be more than invisible on the policy forums.

I'll just pull a random example out of my ass: One of Rave's babies from their previous term was the streaming programme. They haven't done a single post in viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32546 about allowing streaming on LRP.

We have an internal Discord thread on an updated naming policy in the admin channels advanced by a headmin. Not a peep from any headmin in viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32558 yet.

The most active headmin of the lot of them is san, bless his little cotton socks for actually getting involved, making a couple of policy posts and asking the occasional question.

Call me a cynic, but I highly doubt having to air their views in a realtime discussion is going to end up with more interaction than we already see on the forums.

To me, it's frustrating to see policy threads have no headmin interaction AND are taking forever to resolve. It's the worst of both worlds.

Last term wasn't perfect, but when you pinged the headmins about policy threads I went through every one of them I hadn't posted in and put some words down about what I thought, why, perhaps even what status the policy thread was at internally.

I did the same in appeals. For better or worse, I was in ban appeals trying to guide admins and players alike to mutually happy resolutions, clarify policy, etc. etc.

I hate returning to the old status quo where headmins are neither seen, nor heard.

I can't blame Spookuni for that. We host voted them in knowing they're from Oceania and that they do have other commitments. We liked the fact they held opinions on things and those opinions were usually well-founded and well-argued, and weren't hidden. I would like to see a lot more in the public from Spookuni.

The other two I want to see as well. What's the point of running for headmin just to cloister yourself away in headmin-only channels? Be there, be visible and have some public opinions.
I agree, its a shame, its why I posted on all of the threads hoping that some had resolutions that weren't posted, hoping to spur on anything when the doors were closing. In hindsight I could have bumped many earlier, but pushing for tools to help during troubled times is the best I can do now. These kinds of things do best with oversight, presence, and nurturing.

At the same time, I see this as being something that can be a GREAT tool if people decide to use it. It only exists to make life easier if they let it! Its not a replacement for things like being present in policy threads for example, which is great. Its just another medium for getting on the same page. We are all enforcing these things, not just headmins. Its better if we can all understand these things (or more of us) for futures sake. Both spaces exist to be used, and both flourish with headmin input and guidance in those threads and the channel towards what would make things/proposals/enforcement successful. Each role can help the other be easier.

The terms where I myself have felt the most empowered were when things like policybus were being used and headmins kept admins involved and really appeared to be also be involved for example. we might not entirely agree on the methods but I too would like that to be a strong constant.

I don't say any of this with ill will, its just something that has clearly been noticed with a potential bandaid being proposed for it.
Last edited by Misdoubtful on Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Timberpoes » #657197

For real. One of my goals as a headmin was to be visible and participate in discussions internally and externally. I fully support highlighting where there is a headmin visibility/transparency deficit and trying to find solutions that make their involvement in the day-to-day of policy, appeals and complaints more likely.

I like to think that people generally knew where I stood on any incident, note, ban or piece of policy. Anyone was able to challenge me on my views and hold to me to account, because I didn't keep things to myself and put my ideas out there.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by TheFinalPotato » #657208

I found policybus really hard to keep up with, it'd be a waterfall of posts to wade through all at once. It sucks a bit that the full conversation doesn't get recorded anywhere more permanent then discord, and that it's limited to admins and people the admins invite, which I get cause it's discord, but is very annoying.
If it'd help you all come to conclusions more effectively it'd be cool, but it has downsides
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Misdoubtful » #657213

It'd be cool if someone did something like copy paste the discord convo into the related thread. Wouldn't be the hardest thing to do.

I will say its easier to get people to contribute to a Discord thread than it is a forum thread.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Farquaar » #657221

Misdoubtful wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:42 am I will say its easier to get people to contribute to a Discord thread than it is a forum thread.
It's also a lot harder to read or link to a Discord conversation months or years after the fact than a forum thread.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Misdoubtful » #657237

They both have their own special brand of suck.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by spookuni » #657238

Timberpoes wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:34 pm I can't blame Spookuni for that. We host voted them in knowing they're from Oceania and that they do have other commitments. We liked the fact they held opinions on things and those opinions were usually well-founded and well-argued, and weren't hidden. I would like to see a lot more in the public from Spookuni.
It's awkward because I tend to be both very outwardly opinionated on things that I have an opinion on, and my style of argument tends towards establishing what I think should be as if it is what is. while it generally served me well in the past where my word wasn't 1/3 of the final say on what goes, even before I was an admin - and definitely afterwards - it led to confusion and miscommunication that caused people problems. There's a person on the admin team now who (before becoming an admin) quoted me something like a year after I stated my opinion on a "good faith play vs the actual rules" situation on Manuel, quoting my example of good faith play and the best way to handle the situation IC as if it were the admin enforced ruling. On the headmin side of things it's also - as you know - already led to issues with me talking about my opinion or perception of things, and that being taken as an official headmin pronouncement of how reality is.

It's not really an effective defence of me as a leadership figure, and is all told rather an indictment of my function in this position, but it is the reason that I've been increasingly withdrawing into double and triple checking the things I say before I say them - for better or worse I'd rather back up my statements at the moment rather than shoot off the hip and make bad problems worse.

I have been trying to push more stuff out for more active participation with stuff like the admin policy proposal thread on new naming policy (for those who aren't aware yet - I'm slowly working on a draft rewrite of naming policy, the first draft of which was put out for input from the admin team and I plan to push through here and policy bus as I finish up later drafts) which was very productive and mostly just hampered by me struggling to effectively convert the good feedback I was given into policy that is both functional and succinct. I'm planning to use the same system of increasingly public drafting for the MRP rule rewrite when I get around to making my changes to that as well.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Timberpoes » #657242

spookuni wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:03 pm It's awkward because I tend to be both very outwardly opinionated on things that I have an opinion on, and my style of argument tends towards establishing what I think should be as if it is what is. while it generally served me well in the past where my word wasn't 1/3 of the final say on what goes, even before I was an admin - and definitely afterwards - it led to confusion and miscommunication that caused people problems. There's a person on the admin team now who (before becoming an admin) quoted me something like a year after I stated my opinion on a "good faith play vs the actual rules" situation on Manuel, quoting my example of good faith play and the best way to handle the situation IC as if it were the admin enforced ruling. On the headmin side of things it's also - as you know - already led to issues with me talking about my opinion or perception of things, and that being taken as an official headmin pronouncement of how reality is.
My advice during handover was (and still is) - Don't worry about being 1/3rd of the headmin team. The pressure you put on yourself is exponentially greater than what any outside observer cares about.

People lack common sense both inside and outside of the admin team. People will take your words and run with them as gospel. This is an important natural selection process, as these people usually end up attracting the kind of attentention that gets them reprimanded more formally. Don't let the spectre of these people ruin your individual community engagement.

If all the playerbase and admin team ever see of the headmins is them talking when they're making a joined ruling, then you can't blame them for thinking every time a headmin has sent a message (past, present or future) it's with the authority of all three. It's a self-defeating cycle. I think last term broke that cycle. We were active across the community. Every time I was pinged, I responded. I said what was on my mind. The servers didn't burn. The world didn't end. And I think we had a pretty good term as a result.

Discuss, chat with players, (dis-)agree with them, (dis)-agree with your fellow headmins. Then take all that public discussion into your ivory tower and make a properly informed decision. Make a controversial decision. Make a wrong decision, then re-assess it less than a week later to correct course. Just let the rest of the community benefit from a platform to discuss things with the headmins participating in more than a token capacity.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Misdoubtful » #657243

Big respect on publicly acknowledging all of this. If you had concerns about 'defending your leadership' your willingness to take accountability for things did the trick on dealing with those, I hope you know.

It's more than some would be willing to do in such a way. These sorts of dialogues don't happen often enough.

Miscommunications are, as you said, important to mend -- more communication in general doesn't hurt either.

I had thought about telling Sinful that the things they were talking about already do happen, but you did that part for me.

This sort of thing is all that really needs to happen maybe not so much in a dramatic and extreme way, but just letting everybody collectively know where things are at. A lot of things happen behind the scenes but not everybody's always privy to those things.

This thread and ones like it could have been avoided altogether with communication like 'hey we are working on this one keep posting your thoughts' and 'hey we are going to use policybus for this one to make sure we don't miss anything '.

Nobody here has to have the goal of 100% response rates or anything like that, it's just nice to keep people in the know. A response does not have to be a resolution, just has to let people know on the status of things, even if that means a draft is being handed off to the next term or whatever else.

Internally I might have known that naming policy was being worked on, people that aren't privy to that would have no idea, so I had little choice but to post like somebody that has no idea.

Timber is saying a lot of the same things (as I was typing this) but in the end just communicate, communicate, communicate. It will only serve to alleviate future headaches.

Thanks for letting us all know its in the cards though for PBus to be used.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by spookuni » #657628

Misdoubtful wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:58 pm I once considered proposing that a subforum be made to place resolved policy threads in (Or one for yes and one for no resolutions), so that it would be easier for everyone to see and focus on the threads that have not been 'sealed', as well as promote accountability. Maybe even a policy template for people to follow if they so choose to make for more effective, impactful, actionable and discussable policy threads.
As an aside, this was a very good idea, and we're (slowly - mass moving threads is slow and soul destroying) implementing it, should hopefully be easier to navigate the policy forum when all the old threads are archived.
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by Timberpoes » #657639

spookuni wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:19 pm
Misdoubtful wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:58 pm I once considered proposing that a subforum be made to place resolved policy threads in (Or one for yes and one for no resolutions), so that it would be easier for everyone to see and focus on the threads that have not been 'sealed', as well as promote accountability. Maybe even a policy template for people to follow if they so choose to make for more effective, impactful, actionable and discussable policy threads.
As an aside, this was a very good idea, and we're (slowly - mass moving threads is slow and soul destroying) implementing it, should hopefully be easier to navigate the policy forum when all the old threads are archived.
Do not archive old threads (especially if moving them changes their forum link and you have to cross-reference everything on the headmin ruling page to make sure the threads/posts are still linked).

Rename this forum to the archive, then add a new subforum, call it Policy Discussion and move all current discussions there
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by sinfulbliss » #657644

TheFinalPotato wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:23 am I found policybus [...] limited to admins and people the admins invite, which I get cause it's discord, but is very annoying.
+1 to this. It was easy to get added to policybus discussions as a player, to be sure, but it never felt quite as communal as forum policy threads. It felt more like admin auditorium with a few players here and there to chime in. Of course if you opened it up to every player to talk in, you'd lose the long-form, thoughtful posting that forums benefit from.
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oranges
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by oranges » #657724

Forums are just better suited to discussion, but discord also has forum support now so you could try that. Although I found it mostly operates just like a thread.
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kieth4
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by kieth4 » #657838

NamelessFairy wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:44 pm
RaveRadbury wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:13 pm Policybus was invented to foist MRP discussions onto MRP admins because the team that made it didn't play MRP.

Along those lines it exists to delegate things that the headmin team does not feel that they have the expertise to decide between the three of them.

Any conceptualization of policybus beyond this is moving past its original purpose.
I would like to note that during my own term policy bus was used not only for topics where the headmins held no strong opinions but also for topics where me and my team wanted to see a wider discussion of a specific policy. I believe that this attitude helped elevate my term to our effective 100% policy coverage. While this may be beyond its original purpose I do not think we should regress back to its original purpose now that we have demonstrated that it works beyond that scope.

I'm so incredibly confused here, weren't you guys on the same term?
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Re: Bring back #PolicyBus discussions

Post by san7890 » #659049

This term has already started using #policybus again since December 2nd, 2022. This is now resolved.
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