Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

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Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by SkeletalElite » #659521

If someone you are arresting yells out over common that sec is killing them when they are not, they become valid.

If someone falsely yells sec is beating them, they can be beaten to the point of having blunt wounds.

If they want to cry wolf over comms that sec is treating them unfairly, they can actually face whatever abuse they're falsely accusing sec of just to stir shit.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #659524

This is an incredibly based idea
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #659525

I approve.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Kolinko » #659527

More valids, more fun.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Timberpoes » #659530

Fucking ship it.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by blackdav123 » #659534

changeling seccie says "I'm going to execute you" and the rest of sec comes rushing to behead the detained man after he tells the truth

what is the difference between false accusations and real ones when nobody is around to know the difference?
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by SkeletalElite » #659536

blackdav123 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:08 pm changeling seccie says "I'm going to execute you" and the rest of sec comes rushing to behead the detained man after he tells the truth

what is the difference between false accusations and real ones when nobody is around to know the difference?
dont do the killing if youre not being the one falsely accused. frankly ling sec could probably just take your headset off beat you to death and say you were breaking into armory or are a tot and no one would question it if you had a mindshield
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Striders13 » #659540

This would lead to way too much conflict with silicons. It's not a particularly fun conflict either, as most AI can do is say ';harm brig' and bolt an officer in brig for a few minutes.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Mice World » #659558

Striders13 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:07 pm This would lead to way too much conflict with silicons. It's not a particularly fun conflict either, as most AI can do is say ';harm brig' and bolt an officer in brig for a few minutes.
Valid conflict with the AI can create interesting rounds and shouldn't necessarily be discouraged.

As someone who plays sec I agree with this idea. Lying about sec harming you can cause a number of problems for security.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Scriptis » #659564

Silicons already invent enough beef with security and this isn't going to make it any worse--I say this should be policy
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by BeeSting12 » #659580

Generally I deal with this by confiscation of the headset and charge them with inciting a riot, meaning extra minutes on the brig timer, or gulag. They don't get their headset back, by the way, as it was a tool used in the crime.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Epicgamer545 » #659581

Scriptis wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:22 am Silicons already invent enough beef with security and this isn't going to make it any worse--I say this should be policy
exos will abuse security every single shift, you cannot stop me now
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by datorangebottle » #659674

Striders13 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:07 pm This would lead to way too much conflict with silicons. It's not a particularly fun conflict either, as most AI can do is say ';harm brig' and bolt an officer in brig for a few minutes.
As someone who enjoys playing a bit of AI, that sort of conflict happens every round anyway.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Screemonster » #659682

Striders13 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:07 pm This would lead to way too much conflict with silicons. It's not a particularly fun conflict either, as most AI can do is say ';harm brig' and bolt an officer in brig for a few minutes.
Contrary to popular belief, just because they're valid for it doesn't mean you now have to do it. So some shitter yelling "HELP SEC BEATING ME" doesn't give the AI the right to assume that a beating must then occur regardless of whether one was already occuring.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Agux909 » #659688

Wouldn't this empower shitter sec who refuse to speak at all before, during, and after an arrest? Some people just feel helpless and start yelling for help in comms because the officer isn't being responsive at all which is very sus.

Officer then kills the aforementioned player because this made them valid. And only proceeded to arrest them initially because neuron activation after seeing red W.

Yeah not sure if this is a great idea.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by SkeletalElite » #659690

Agux909 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:46 pm Wouldn't this empower shitter sec who refuse to speak at all before, during, and after an arrest? Some people just feel helpless and start yelling for help in comms because the officer isn't being responsive at all which is very sus.

Officer then kills the aforementioned player because this made them valid. And only proceeded to arrest them initially because neuron activation after seeing red W.

Yeah not sure if this is a great idea.
If the first thing you think to do after being arrested falsely is to say that the officer is killing you, you deserve to die.

Saying you were falsely arrested when you were indeed falsely arrested is not the same as saying you've been beaten or are being murdered when you have not.

The accusation has to be false for it to open you to retaliation.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Misdoubtful » #659691

SkeletalElite wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:22 pm
Agux909 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:46 pm Wouldn't this empower shitter sec who refuse to speak at all before, during, and after an arrest? Some people just feel helpless and start yelling for help in comms because the officer isn't being responsive at all which is very sus.

Officer then kills the aforementioned player because this made them valid. And only proceeded to arrest them initially because neuron activation after seeing red W.

Yeah not sure if this is a great idea.
If the first thing you think to do after being arrested falsely is to say that the officer is killing you, you deserve to die.

Saying you were falsely arrested when you were indeed falsely arrested is not the same as saying you've been beaten or are being murdered when you have not.

The accusation has to be false for it to open you to retaliation.
Yeah basically.

I guess I can kind of get it when someone starts screaming random things, but still, wouldn't the difference be like 'I'm being arrested and I don't know why this is illegal' and 'sec is literally gassing me to death right now'?
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Agux909 » #659692

Misdoubtful wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:33 pm
SkeletalElite wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:22 pm
Agux909 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:46 pm Wouldn't this empower shitter sec who refuse to speak at all before, during, and after an arrest? Some people just feel helpless and start yelling for help in comms because the officer isn't being responsive at all which is very sus.

Officer then kills the aforementioned player because this made them valid. And only proceeded to arrest them initially because neuron activation after seeing red W.

Yeah not sure if this is a great idea.
If the first thing you think to do after being arrested falsely is to say that the officer is killing you, you deserve to die.

Saying you were falsely arrested when you were indeed falsely arrested is not the same as saying you've been beaten or are being murdered when you have not.

The accusation has to be false for it to open you to retaliation.
Yeah basically.

I guess I can kind of get it when someone starts screaming random things, but still, wouldn't the difference be like 'I'm being arrested and I don't know why this is illegal' and 'sec is literally gassing me to death right now'?
Hmm yeah both fair points.

I guess if I want to play a hypersensitive character that screams for their life when wordlessly arrested, noone is really forcing me to do this, so it'd be an IC issue if the officer decides to straight up murder me. Which isn't even guaranteed to happen because not everyone plays like this anyway.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Misdoubtful » #659694

Yeah I mean my examples aren't the best, but it was the best I could come up with on the spot.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #659714

This is a horrid idea because it'd be absolutely impossible to properly enforce and will just be a banbaiting situation for most people.

Consider, an RP perspective. The prisoner is unharmed, bucklecuffed to a chair. An Officer or Det is batoning them over and over and over again. The prisoner is not going to like this, from an IC perspective. The Prisoner calls for help, as Security is abusing them while they're restrained.

Someone comes rushing over and sees that the person doesn't have any injuries. "Aha. This person is now valid!" and proceeds to beat them. They get banned.

And while I don't believe it'd happen, I know some of you particularly cynical fucks would, consider the possibility of Vekter or some other admin you don't like deciding that person is banbaiting Security and now the prisoner gets banned for RPing appropriately.

This idea, while good on paper, is impossible to properly enforce and just leads to too many problems.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Agux909 » #659721

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:36 pm This is a horrid idea because it'd be absolutely impossible to properly enforce and will just be a banbaiting situation for most people.

Consider, an RP perspective. The prisoner is unharmed, bucklecuffed to a chair. An Officer or Det is batoning them over and over and over again. The prisoner is not going to like this, from an IC perspective. The Prisoner calls for help, as Security is abusing them while they're restrained.

Someone comes rushing over and sees that the person doesn't have any injuries. "Aha. This person is now valid!" and proceeds to beat them. They get banned.

And while I don't believe it'd happen, I know some of you particularly cynical fucks would, consider the possibility of Vekter or some other admin you don't like deciding that person is banbaiting Security and now the prisoner gets banned for RPing appropriately.

This idea, while good on paper, is impossible to properly enforce and just leads to too many problems.
While I'm also iffy on this being an actual defined policy, the key here is the wording. As Misdoubtful said above. It's not the same screaming in comms: "He-e-elp I'm b-e-e-e-eing b-b-a-a-t-o-o-o-n-d n-n-o-n--st-o-op" than "He-e-elp s-e-e-ec e-e-ex-x-e-e-cutt-i-i-i-ng m-e-e-e".

Lying about getting executed, beheaded or what have you if all the seccie is doing is batoning you would make you valid. And if the seccie really was holding you and batoning for that long while cuffed then it's grief, which can be ahelped.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #659730

Agux909 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:18 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:36 pm This is a horrid idea because it'd be absolutely impossible to properly enforce and will just be a banbaiting situation for most people.

Consider, an RP perspective. The prisoner is unharmed, bucklecuffed to a chair. An Officer or Det is batoning them over and over and over again. The prisoner is not going to like this, from an IC perspective. The Prisoner calls for help, as Security is abusing them while they're restrained.

Someone comes rushing over and sees that the person doesn't have any injuries. "Aha. This person is now valid!" and proceeds to beat them. They get banned.

And while I don't believe it'd happen, I know some of you particularly cynical fucks would, consider the possibility of Vekter or some other admin you don't like deciding that person is banbaiting Security and now the prisoner gets banned for RPing appropriately.

This idea, while good on paper, is impossible to properly enforce and just leads to too many problems.
While I'm also iffy on this being an actual defined policy, the key here is the wording. As Misdoubtful said above. It's not the same screaming in comms: "He-e-elp I'm b-e-e-e-eing b-b-a-a-t-o-o-o-n-d n-n-o-n--st-o-op" than "He-e-elp s-e-e-ec e-e-ex-x-e-e-cutt-i-i-i-ng m-e-e-e".

Lying about getting executed, beheaded or what have you if all the seccie is doing is batoning you would make you valid. And if the seccie really was holding you and batoning for that long while cuffed then it's grief, which can be ahelped.
Except Detective and Police Batons don't make you stammer your speech. Perhaps the Warden was leg-sweeping or doing the Stam Jab over and over. That's why the word was "abusing". But perhaps they don't see that as abuse? Perhaps they only think abuse is physically beating.

And I wouldn't call that grief. What if the Detective detains someone who tried to Makarov the chef in front of them, and doesn't have handcuffs because they're not supposed to make arrests? What if the Seccie's just bored while waiting for the Warden or HoS to make a decision on processing them? Much like throwing a pie, it causes very little actual impact to you. It doesn't even stop you from cuff-wriggling. It's all just an IC Thing that you wouldn't want to happen. I doubt someone working on a space station WANTS to have a pie thrown in their face either, so we shouldn't base grief on IC Impact.

And also, what if you get silent baton'd by an Officer or HoS? You ask them what you did or why they're arresting you and they stay dead silent. Should that person NOT scream up a storm to get everyone's attention onto them in case it is a Changeling or a Traitor?

As a former Sec Main myself, I absolutely know the frustration that shitters like this can cause, but I think having this made policy just opens up too many bad situations. Someone shouldn't be able to be executed because the HoS falsely arrested them by mistake, and the person was screaming for help because they thought it was an antag who was gonna try and kill 'em.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Agux909 » #659734

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:18 pm
Agux909 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:18 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:36 pm This is a horrid idea because it'd be absolutely impossible to properly enforce and will just be a banbaiting situation for most people.

Consider, an RP perspective. The prisoner is unharmed, bucklecuffed to a chair. An Officer or Det is batoning them over and over and over again. The prisoner is not going to like this, from an IC perspective. The Prisoner calls for help, as Security is abusing them while they're restrained.

Someone comes rushing over and sees that the person doesn't have any injuries. "Aha. This person is now valid!" and proceeds to beat them. They get banned.

And while I don't believe it'd happen, I know some of you particularly cynical fucks would, consider the possibility of Vekter or some other admin you don't like deciding that person is banbaiting Security and now the prisoner gets banned for RPing appropriately.

This idea, while good on paper, is impossible to properly enforce and just leads to too many problems.
While I'm also iffy on this being an actual defined policy, the key here is the wording. As Misdoubtful said above. It's not the same screaming in comms: "He-e-elp I'm b-e-e-e-eing b-b-a-a-t-o-o-o-n-d n-n-o-n--st-o-op" than "He-e-elp s-e-e-ec e-e-ex-x-e-e-cutt-i-i-i-ng m-e-e-e".

Lying about getting executed, beheaded or what have you if all the seccie is doing is batoning you would make you valid. And if the seccie really was holding you and batoning for that long while cuffed then it's grief, which can be ahelped.
Except Detective and Police Batons don't make you stammer your speech. Perhaps the Warden was leg-sweeping or doing the Stam Jab over and over. That's why the word was "abusing". But perhaps they don't see that as abuse? Perhaps they only think abuse is physically beating.

And I wouldn't call that grief. What if the Detective detains someone who tried to Makarov the chef in front of them, and doesn't have handcuffs because they're not supposed to make arrests? What if the Seccie's just bored while waiting for the Warden or HoS to make a decision on processing them? Much like throwing a pie, it causes very little actual impact to you. It doesn't even stop you from cuff-wriggling. It's all just an IC Thing that you wouldn't want to happen. I doubt someone working on a space station WANTS to have a pie thrown in their face either, so we shouldn't base grief on IC Impact.

And also, what if you get silent baton'd by an Officer or HoS? You ask them what you did or why they're arresting you and they stay dead silent. Should that person NOT scream up a storm to get everyone's attention onto them in case it is a Changeling or a Traitor?

As a former Sec Main myself, I absolutely know the frustration that shitters like this can cause, but I think having this made policy just opens up too many bad situations. Someone shouldn't be able to be executed because the HoS falsely arrested them by mistake, and the person was screaming for help because they thought it was an antag who was gonna try and kill 'em.
The stammers were just an example. Come on now, don't be this dense, sigh.

And I'm talking about holding someone for like half an hour while batoning, buckling and moving them around, way past the proportional punishment they deserve. I thought you were talking about this when you said "abusing them while restrained". We've seen this happen recently in a case involving a mime and a CMO (Yes Gungnir, before you make the remark I know CMO is not a part of sec, just using a similar situation as an example)

And it's about context. It's not the same for a detective who lacks cuff to keep batoning someone that looks like an antag to keep them from escaping than a seccie who keeps actively abusing and humilliating someone in brig for more than 10-20 minutes for some minor shittery. At that point its honestly preferable to kill them and give them to medbay.

It's all very situational as you can see.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #659771

Agux909 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:47 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:18 pm
Agux909 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:18 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:36 pm This is a horrid idea because it'd be absolutely impossible to properly enforce and will just be a banbaiting situation for most people.

Consider, an RP perspective. The prisoner is unharmed, bucklecuffed to a chair. An Officer or Det is batoning them over and over and over again. The prisoner is not going to like this, from an IC perspective. The Prisoner calls for help, as Security is abusing them while they're restrained.

Someone comes rushing over and sees that the person doesn't have any injuries. "Aha. This person is now valid!" and proceeds to beat them. They get banned.

And while I don't believe it'd happen, I know some of you particularly cynical fucks would, consider the possibility of Vekter or some other admin you don't like deciding that person is banbaiting Security and now the prisoner gets banned for RPing appropriately.

This idea, while good on paper, is impossible to properly enforce and just leads to too many problems.
While I'm also iffy on this being an actual defined policy, the key here is the wording. As Misdoubtful said above. It's not the same screaming in comms: "He-e-elp I'm b-e-e-e-eing b-b-a-a-t-o-o-o-n-d n-n-o-n--st-o-op" than "He-e-elp s-e-e-ec e-e-ex-x-e-e-cutt-i-i-i-ng m-e-e-e".

Lying about getting executed, beheaded or what have you if all the seccie is doing is batoning you would make you valid. And if the seccie really was holding you and batoning for that long while cuffed then it's grief, which can be ahelped.
Except Detective and Police Batons don't make you stammer your speech. Perhaps the Warden was leg-sweeping or doing the Stam Jab over and over. That's why the word was "abusing". But perhaps they don't see that as abuse? Perhaps they only think abuse is physically beating.

And I wouldn't call that grief. What if the Detective detains someone who tried to Makarov the chef in front of them, and doesn't have handcuffs because they're not supposed to make arrests? What if the Seccie's just bored while waiting for the Warden or HoS to make a decision on processing them? Much like throwing a pie, it causes very little actual impact to you. It doesn't even stop you from cuff-wriggling. It's all just an IC Thing that you wouldn't want to happen. I doubt someone working on a space station WANTS to have a pie thrown in their face either, so we shouldn't base grief on IC Impact.

And also, what if you get silent baton'd by an Officer or HoS? You ask them what you did or why they're arresting you and they stay dead silent. Should that person NOT scream up a storm to get everyone's attention onto them in case it is a Changeling or a Traitor?

As a former Sec Main myself, I absolutely know the frustration that shitters like this can cause, but I think having this made policy just opens up too many bad situations. Someone shouldn't be able to be executed because the HoS falsely arrested them by mistake, and the person was screaming for help because they thought it was an antag who was gonna try and kill 'em.
The stammers were just an example. Come on now, don't be this dense, sigh.

And I'm talking about holding someone for like half an hour while batoning, buckling and moving them around, way past the proportional punishment they deserve. I thought you were talking about this when you said "abusing them while restrained". We've seen this happen recently in a case involving a mime and a CMO (Yes Gungnir, before you make the remark I know CMO is not a part of sec, just using a similar situation as an example)

And it's about context. It's not the same for a detective who lacks cuff to keep batoning someone that looks like an antag to keep them from escaping than a seccie who keeps actively abusing and humilliating someone in brig for more than 10-20 minutes for some minor shittery. At that point its honestly preferable to kill them and give them to medbay.

It's all very situational as you can see.
I think it's still relevant to show how grey it is. It doesn't have to be something that major, and the fact that you instantly went to that even after I said someone just being IC and RPing (because someone's not gonna be happy about being repeatedly baton'd, even if it's non-harmful) is all the more reason. People would see a yell that Sec is abusing them while they're in cuffs, see that they're unharmed, and beat them.

There are a lot of ways that this could go wrong and thus as satisfying as it would be to do it to the shitters, it's not a good idea.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by spookuni » #659773

I'm personally in favour of this general idea, with the caveat that permission to punch people crying wolves in the face should only apply to the security officer(s) being falsely accused.

There shouldn't ever be the case where vigilantes / other security officers are killing people they haven't interacted with because they don't appear to have been harmed after calling that they were - if you weren't there, it shouldn't apply.

I don't really see issues with seccies getting false-called having permission to smack people for it, I do want to avoid issues with literal valid-hunting where people go see what's up when someone calls for help on the off chance that they get to kill a valid today. (to say nothing of the potential issues that that would enable re: comms agents and traitors with cham headsets)
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Pandarsenic » #659775

Shitters who cry wolf deserve to eat their words - though, as people have said, only from the person accused is probably for the best.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Screemonster » #659782

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:36 pm
Someone comes rushing over and sees that the person doesn't have any injuries. "Aha. This person is now valid!" and proceeds to beat them. They get banned.
who said anything about making them valid to anyone other than the person they're falsely accusing, it's entirely possible for someone to be a valid target to one player without them being valid to lynch by the crew at large
also I thought this was policy back in the day
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #659788

spookuni wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:26 am I'm personally in favour of this general idea, with the caveat that permission to punch people crying wolves in the face should only apply to the security officer(s) being falsely accused.

There shouldn't ever be the case where vigilantes / other security officers are killing people they haven't interacted with because they don't appear to have been harmed after calling that they were - if you weren't there, it shouldn't apply.

I don't really see issues with seccies getting false-called having permission to smack people for it, I do want to avoid issues with literal valid-hunting where people go see what's up when someone calls for help on the off chance that they get to kill a valid today. (to say nothing of the potential issues that that would enable re: comms agents and traitors with cham headsets)
And then we run into the case where peoples' definitions differ. Person 1 puts some effort into their RP. They don't really want to be being constantly beaten with a baton, even if it doesn't do Health Analyzer Damage, while already restrained, cuffed, bucklecuffed, etc. So they yell out that they're being abused.

The Officer doesn't think that pushing the left click with their baton is abusing anyone because it's not doing any damage, it's just a silly noise every 5 seconds, and decides that "I have now been falsely accused of abusing this prisoner. It is time to beat them."

This still leaves a giant problem. What does the person do, now? Do they ahelp that the SecOff is just beating them while they're in cuffs? They didn't falsely accuse anyone by their own, perfectly reasonable definition. Who makes the decision? If the answer is "Well it's an IC issue" then why do we need this policy in the first place, because the Officer would be allowed to do this regardless.

It's an awful idea squarely because of the fact that it would need Silicon Policy levels of depth and sub-rules to make it work.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Mice World » #659792

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:39 am Snip
Other people have already given you the solution. If you have a burning need to inform everyone about how sec is bullying you just be specific. "Security is stunning me while I'm handcuffed." won't get you beaten.

Or just tell the other security members/HoS? Most people who actively play security hate it when other secoffs act like shitters.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #659793

Mice World wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:45 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:39 am Snip
Other people have already given you the solution. If you have a burning need to inform everyone about how sec is bullying you just be specific. "Security is stunning me while I'm handcuffed." won't get you beaten.

Or just tell the other security members/HoS? Most people who actively play security hate it when other secoffs act like shitters.
But doesn't the fact that you have to be ODDLY SPECIFIC ABOUT THE FORM OF ABUSE YOU'RE RECEIVING kinda feel a little hamfisted? Most people in that situation would probably just say that they're being abused. Given that even LRP is LRP and not NRP, it feels a little weird that we're making policy that actively lowers RP so that people can satisfy their metabloodlust.

We already have a solution for people like this, it's called Throwing The Book At Them, send 'em to the gulag instead of a cell. Up their sentence. We deal with shitters perfectly fine without handing other shitters policy to freely use and abuse.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Agux909 » #659796

If you're being abused and you say you're being abused this doesn't apply. Just don't lie or there's a chance you'll get it. If Sec gets unreasonable to a point it's starting to ruin your round, you can ahelp it so an admin tells the seccie to cut it out.

Anyway, as I said I'm neutral to this whole debate and I'm not sure if I want it made policy, but I can understand why some would want it to be a thing.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Mice World » #659798

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:51 am But doesn't the fact that you have to be ODDLY SPECIFIC ABOUT THE FORM OF ABUSE YOU'RE RECEIVING kinda feel a little hamfisted? Most people in that situation would probably just say that they're being abused. Given that even LRP is LRP and not NRP, it feels a little weird that we're making policy that actively lowers RP so that people can satisfy their metabloodlust.

We already have a solution for people like this, it's called Throwing The Book At Them, send 'em to the gulag instead of a cell. Up their sentence. We deal with shitters perfectly fine without handing other shitters policy to freely use and abuse.
RP is subjective and arguing about it is pointless but you're really telling me that you wouldn't be specific if the police abused you? If a cop tased me while I was in custody I'd be super specific when questioned about it.

Trying to strawman this into "you just want valids!!" shows you're completely missing the point. This isn't about muh free killz, this is about punishing shit players IC.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Screemonster » #659799

if you say security are beating you and security are like "no no no I was only stunning them repeatedly for no reason" when the admins ask why then the admins are going to ask "okay but why were you doing that in the first place"

like if an officer straps you down to the chair in the execution chamber and gets out the lethal injection syringes and asks "any last words" they don't get to go "A-HA, I WASN'T TECHNICALLY EXECUTING YOU BUT NOW IT'S VALID FOR ME TO DO SO" when you call for help
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #659803

Mice World wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:24 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:51 am But doesn't the fact that you have to be ODDLY SPECIFIC ABOUT THE FORM OF ABUSE YOU'RE RECEIVING kinda feel a little hamfisted? Most people in that situation would probably just say that they're being abused. Given that even LRP is LRP and not NRP, it feels a little weird that we're making policy that actively lowers RP so that people can satisfy their metabloodlust.

We already have a solution for people like this, it's called Throwing The Book At Them, send 'em to the gulag instead of a cell. Up their sentence. We deal with shitters perfectly fine without handing other shitters policy to freely use and abuse.
RP is subjective and arguing about it is pointless but you're really telling me that you wouldn't be specific if the police abused you? If a cop tased me while I was in custody I'd be super specific when questioned about it.

Trying to strawman this into "you just want valids!!" shows you're completely missing the point. This isn't about muh free killz, this is about punishing shit players IC.
I'm not trying to strawman this into anything, this entire thread is full of people going "YES DO IT I WANT TO BEAT THE PEOPLE WHO DO THIS" rather than coming up with any reason that this policy would actually benefit anything.

You're absolutely correct that you would be super specific in that situation, however if you're trying to get help in the moment, you're not going to scream "HELP THIS POLICE OFFICER IS USING HIS TASER ON ME WHILE I AM RESTRAINED WITHIN HANDCUFFS" you're going to help "HELP POLICE BRUTALITY" or if you want to get particularly mouthy (IE not seem like anyone else just screaming because a Baton was used on them) "I'M ALREADY CUFFED AND SEC ARE ABUSING ME HELP".

The thing is that RP being subjective is exactly why this is a problem. Because of the fact that RP is subjective, that means that when I say "Sec is abusing me" a higher RP person will understand that includes non-harm things, too. Someone else will think that it only matters if you're taking damage, and thus go "Aha, false accusation, I can beat people now."

I'm making an argument based on what I can predict happening because of this, and so far the only person to actually offer a counterpoint is Scree, which-
Screemonster wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:29 pm if you say security are beating you and security are like "no no no I was only stunning them repeatedly for no reason" when the admins ask why then the admins are going to ask "okay but why were you doing that in the first place"

like if an officer straps you down to the chair in the execution chamber and gets out the lethal injection syringes and asks "any last words" they don't get to go "A-HA, I WASN'T TECHNICALLY EXECUTING YOU BUT NOW IT'S VALID FOR ME TO DO SO" when you call for help
A fair point, but it's a gigantic administrative headache that could also be entirely avoided by people just doing what we already do about these people: Throw the book at them. I don't really think we've run into too many of these problems for it to be necessary/worth the potential trouble that it opens up.

I also don't think those two are equateable. If you make it look like you're going to execute someone then they'll call for help obviously. That's very different, however, from a disagreement on what qualifies as "abuse".
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Mice World » #659809

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:34 pm I'm not trying to strawman this into anything, this entire thread is full of people going "YES DO IT I WANT TO BEAT THE PEOPLE WHO DO THIS" rather than coming up with any reason that this policy would actually benefit anything.
Lying about security abusing/executing you is one of the WORST things you can do when arrested. It's exactly the same as faking a revolution, calling the AI malf and accusing other players of being a traitor without proof. It can cause problems for the whole security team and can absolutely ruin rounds. Security is already in a tight spot administration wise as they're expected to play at a higher standard than other players, so actively fucking with security just because you're mad they arrested you is awful. Could you ahelp it? Yes. But relying on admins doesn't always work. We should be adding more ways to deal with grief IC and this does a great job of fixing a huge problem.
The thing is that RP being subjective is exactly why this is a problem. Because of the fact that RP is subjective, that means that when I say "Sec is abusing me" a higher RP person will understand that includes non-harm things, too. Someone else will think that it only matters if you're taking damage, and thus go "Aha, false accusation, I can beat people now."
This might happen but it would be rare. Bad faith security players don't last long and if I saw anyone abusing this rule when I'm HoS I would demote them on the spot.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Archie700 » #659811

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:34 pm You're absolutely correct that you would be super specific in that situation, however if you're trying to get help in the moment, you're not going to scream "HELP THIS POLICE OFFICER IS USING HIS TASER ON ME WHILE I AM RESTRAINED WITHIN HANDCUFFS" you're going to help "HELP POLICE BRUTALITY" or if you want to get particularly mouthy (IE not seem like anyone else just screaming because a Baton was used on them) "I'M ALREADY CUFFED AND SEC ARE ABUSING ME HELP".

I'm very sure these people are the same people who break into brig and scream HELP HUMAN HARM when they get knocked down.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #659847

Mice World wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:00 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:34 pm I'm not trying to strawman this into anything, this entire thread is full of people going "YES DO IT I WANT TO BEAT THE PEOPLE WHO DO THIS" rather than coming up with any reason that this policy would actually benefit anything.
Lying about security abusing/executing you is one of the WORST things you can do when arrested. It's exactly the same as faking a revolution, calling the AI malf and accusing other players of being a traitor without proof. It can cause problems for the whole security team and can absolutely ruin rounds. Security is already in a tight spot administration wise as they're expected to play at a higher standard than other players, so actively fucking with security just because you're mad they arrested you is awful. Could you ahelp it? Yes. But relying on admins doesn't always work. We should be adding more ways to deal with grief IC and this does a great job of fixing a huge problem.
The thing is that RP being subjective is exactly why this is a problem. Because of the fact that RP is subjective, that means that when I say "Sec is abusing me" a higher RP person will understand that includes non-harm things, too. Someone else will think that it only matters if you're taking damage, and thus go "Aha, false accusation, I can beat people now."
This might happen but it would be rare. Bad faith security players don't last long and if I saw anyone abusing this rule when I'm HoS I would demote them on the spot.
Yes but the problem is that we shouldn't be opening up ways to deal with grief IC by adding a method for a different form of grief to occur. Especially in a way that undermines RP. And again, especially not in a way that leaves too many false opportunities.

If you get silent baton'd, and the officer arresting you doesn't even say a single word the entire time they're stunning, cuffing, and dragging you away, you SHOULD, in fact, be allowed to scream that you think they're going to kill you because it's VERY POSSIBLE that it's not actually a SecOff. Having this open up the possibility for them to do that is actually fucking insane. You have no idea if it's a real SecOff or not, so getting eyes on you is important, because it's a lot harder for a changeling or disguised other-Antag to do away with you if they're being watched.

And again, definitions differ between people, and you can call them bad faith (I would agree) and say that you'd demote them, but the truth of the matter is you wouldn't. Because if you saw the abuse happening in the first place, you'd stop it. And if you didn't see it, then it's a case of SecOff's Word vs Arrested Person's Word, and who are you going to believe? Are you going to demote one of your SecOffs on the spot because someone accused them of doing this? No, you probably won't unless you already knew they were a shitter beforehand.
Archie700 wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:35 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:34 pm [Snip]

I'm very sure these people are the same people who break into brig and scream HELP HUMAN HARM when they get knocked down.
Those are 100% the kind of people I would support this for, but I'm concerned about it backfiring when, again, you can already deal with those shitters perfectly easily with our current systems. Gulag them or, hell, I highly doubt an admin would smack you for it if you beat 'em around a little bit for that. Just don't beat them to death.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Mice World » #659855

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:00 pmYes but the problem is that we shouldn't be opening up ways to deal with grief IC by adding a method for a different form of grief to occur. Especially in a way that undermines RP. And again, especially not in a way that leaves too many false opportunities.
I guess we should just agree to disagree. You seem hyper focused on the fact that bad players COULD abuse it instead of thinking how it helps most normal security players.
If you get silent baton'd, and the officer arresting you doesn't even say a single word the entire time they're stunning, cuffing, and dragging you away, you SHOULD, in fact, be allowed to scream that you think they're going to kill you because it's VERY POSSIBLE that it's not actually a SecOff. Having this open up the possibility for them to do that is actually fucking insane. You have no idea if it's a real SecOff or not, so getting eyes on you is important, because it's a lot harder for a changeling or disguised other-Antag to do away with you if they're being watched.
We're arguing in circles here, just be specific! "AI PLEASE WATCH ME I FEAR FOR MY LIFE!" or "Head of security please help, x might be trying to hurt me!" both of these won't get you beaten or killed and are much better than "HELP SEC KILLING ME!!".
And again, definitions differ between people, and you can call them bad faith (I would agree) and say that you'd demote them, but the truth of the matter is you wouldn't. Because if you saw the abuse happening in the first place, you'd stop it. And if you didn't see it, then it's a case of SecOff's Word vs Arrested Person's Word, and who are you going to believe? Are you going to demote one of your SecOffs on the spot because someone accused them of doing this? No, you probably won't unless you already knew they were a shitter beforehand.
It isn't hard to figure out when an officer is being a shitter. But sure, there MIGHT be someone who just plays security to abuse rules and killbait everyone. But maybe the reason why you rarely see officers like this is because they've already been banned? Most officers that act like Judge Dredd are just new players letting the power go to their head.

Personally I don't really care if this rule only applies to fake claims of execution, as this usually causes more problems than "HELP SEC BEATING ME!!".
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Archie700 » #659865

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:00 pm.

If you get silent baton'd, and the officer arresting you doesn't even say a single word the entire time they're stunning, cuffing, and dragging you away, you SHOULD, in fact, be allowed to scream that you think they're going to kill you because it's VERY POSSIBLE that it's not actually a SecOff. Having this open up the possibility for them to do that is actually fucking insane. You have no idea if it's a real SecOff or not, so getting eyes on you is important, because it's a lot harder for a changeling or disguised other-Antag to do away with you if they're being watched.

And again, definitions differ between people, and you can call them bad faith (I would agree) and say that you'd demote them, but the truth of the matter is you wouldn't. Because if you saw the abuse happening in the first place, you'd stop it. And if you didn't see it, then it's a case of SecOff's Word vs Arrested Person's Word, and who are you going to believe? Are you going to demote one of your SecOffs on the spot because someone accused them of doing this? No, you probably won't unless you already knew they were a shitter beforehand.
If you scream "HELP SEC KILLING/HARMING ME" when one security officer is just batoning you while cuffed then you deserve to be shat on honestly.
Maybe next time don't exaggerate about what security is doing to you unless you know for sure that they are going to kill you.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by bastardblaster » #659886

bad idea
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #659894

Mice World wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:23 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:00 pmYes but the problem is that we shouldn't be opening up ways to deal with grief IC by adding a method for a different form of grief to occur. Especially in a way that undermines RP. And again, especially not in a way that leaves too many false opportunities.
I guess we should just agree to disagree. You seem hyper focused on the fact that bad players COULD abuse it instead of thinking how it helps most normal security players.
Because it doesn't. I've played a lot of Sec myself. We've dealt with things like this perfectly fine without having to have something explicitly declared as Policy that opens a lot of potential for flaws and doesn't do anything. It's not like we can't already deal with these people, you guys genuinely just come off as wanting the excuse to turn more people horizontal, because that's the only difference between how we handled it before and how we'd handle it with this.
And again, definitions differ between people, and you can call them bad faith (I would agree) and say that you'd demote them, but the truth of the matter is you wouldn't. Because if you saw the abuse happening in the first place, you'd stop it. And if you didn't see it, then it's a case of SecOff's Word vs Arrested Person's Word, and who are you going to believe? Are you going to demote one of your SecOffs on the spot because someone accused them of doing this? No, you probably won't unless you already knew they were a shitter beforehand.
It isn't hard to figure out when an officer is being a shitter. But sure, there MIGHT be someone who just plays security to abuse rules and killbait everyone. But maybe the reason why you rarely see officers like this is because they've already been banned? Most officers that act like Judge Dredd are just new players letting the power go to their head.

Personally I don't really care if this rule only applies to fake claims of execution, as this usually causes more problems than "HELP SEC BEATING ME!!".
Sure. And they'd get banned pretty quickly, still. But does that mean we should add a piece of policy that doesn't serve any good except give people more excuses to click someone horizontal and opens up the opportunities for this kind of thing to happen? Even without assuming malice. As I keep saying, people's definitions differ. Maybe the dude's not malicious, but his definition of Abuse is different, and starts beating. He's gonna get banned if his version differs from the admin's. Is there anything this would give us that we couldn't do before that is worth that risk?
Archie700 wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:56 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:00 pm.

If you get silent baton'd, and the officer arresting you doesn't even say a single word the entire time they're stunning, cuffing, and dragging you away, you SHOULD, in fact, be allowed to scream that you think they're going to kill you because it's VERY POSSIBLE that it's not actually a SecOff. Having this open up the possibility for them to do that is actually fucking insane. You have no idea if it's a real SecOff or not, so getting eyes on you is important, because it's a lot harder for a changeling or disguised other-Antag to do away with you if they're being watched.

And again, definitions differ between people, and you can call them bad faith (I would agree) and say that you'd demote them, but the truth of the matter is you wouldn't. Because if you saw the abuse happening in the first place, you'd stop it. And if you didn't see it, then it's a case of SecOff's Word vs Arrested Person's Word, and who are you going to believe? Are you going to demote one of your SecOffs on the spot because someone accused them of doing this? No, you probably won't unless you already knew they were a shitter beforehand.
If you scream "HELP SEC KILLING/HARMING ME" when one security officer is just batoning you while cuffed then you deserve to be shat on honestly.
Maybe next time don't exaggerate about what security is doing to you unless you know for sure that they are going to kill you.
Where did I say that? I've been saying the whole time that peoples' definitions differ, and thus if this was through the only way to avoid it would be to be as absolutely specific as possible at all times. Which is stupid and hinders roleplay. If you're being repeatedly baton'd while cuffed, that would be abuse in any reasonable person's mind. But that Officer might think it doesn't count as abuse unless you're doing Health Analyzer Damage, and thus start beating you. The only way to avoid that would be to then yell "PLEASE HELP SEC IS REPEATEDLY BATONING ME WHILE I AM CUFFED" and that's incredibly long, awkward to say (nobody would probably say this) and is only a requirement because we decided to add some policy to satisfy peoples' metabloodlust at the cost of RP.

This is stupid. We have always had, and will always continue to have, other and better ways to deal with this problem. This has too high of a cost for something that literally does nothing except give you more excuses to harmbaton people.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by mstachife » #659901

most based policy idea 2022
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by TheLoLSwat » #659927

Isnt this already possible ingame to a smaller scale? If someone starts screaming you can say something along the lines of "i will give you a reason to scream bloody murder if you dont shut up" which is a fair warning and fair escalation if they dont shut up and you end up doing something like adding more time or roughing them up a bit.

I also dont see how this can be abused when it only says that they are only valid to what they claimed sec was doing to them. Either
1. they are lying about what sec is doing and sec rightfully slams them
2. sec is genuinely abusing past IC which in that case is an OOC issue since sec cant do that to nonantags

I dont really see how another scenario can come up since they're either lying or not. The ONLY type of case i see happening semi-regularly is someone saying "sec abusing me" to a silent arresting officer to which the officer will beat them and then they'll say "sec killing me" and die, but you should know not to scream abuse if someone that looks like sec is arresting you unless they remove your headset or take you somewhere that isnt brig.... or instead of lying you can just say "help x" because its not only faster than lying but sec cant do anything since you are only implying abuse
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Archie700 » #659947

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:08 am Where did I say that? I've been saying the whole time that peoples' definitions differ, and thus if this was through the only way to avoid it would be to be as absolutely specific as possible at all times. Which is stupid and hinders roleplay. If you're being repeatedly baton'd while cuffed, that would be abuse in any reasonable person's mind. But that Officer might think it doesn't count as abuse unless you're doing Health Analyzer Damage, and thus start beating you. The only way to avoid that would be to then yell "PLEASE HELP SEC IS REPEATEDLY BATONING ME WHILE I AM CUFFED" and that's incredibly long, awkward to say (nobody would probably say this) and is only a requirement because we decided to add some policy to satisfy peoples' metabloodlust at the cost of RP.

This is stupid. We have always had, and will always continue to have, other and better ways to deal with this problem. This has too high of a cost for something that literally does nothing except give you more excuses to harmbaton people.
How about we apply differing levels.

If you are arrested and being batoned:
If you say you are being abused or bullied ONLY with no indication of harm in what you said, then sec can only nonharmfully bully you.
If you scream that you are being harmed, then sec can escalate to harm.
If you scream that they are going to execute you, goodbye.
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Misdoubtful » #659949

I'm not really sure what arguing semantics here is going to accomplish. How deeply does this needed to be looked into?
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #659995

Archie700 wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:20 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:08 am Where did I say that? I've been saying the whole time that peoples' definitions differ, and thus if this was through the only way to avoid it would be to be as absolutely specific as possible at all times. Which is stupid and hinders roleplay. If you're being repeatedly baton'd while cuffed, that would be abuse in any reasonable person's mind. But that Officer might think it doesn't count as abuse unless you're doing Health Analyzer Damage, and thus start beating you. The only way to avoid that would be to then yell "PLEASE HELP SEC IS REPEATEDLY BATONING ME WHILE I AM CUFFED" and that's incredibly long, awkward to say (nobody would probably say this) and is only a requirement because we decided to add some policy to satisfy peoples' metabloodlust at the cost of RP.

This is stupid. We have always had, and will always continue to have, other and better ways to deal with this problem. This has too high of a cost for something that literally does nothing except give you more excuses to harmbaton people.
How about we apply differing levels.

If you are arrested and being batoned:
If you say you are being abused or bullied ONLY with no indication of harm in what you said, then sec can only nonharmfully bully you.
If you scream that you are being harmed, then sec can escalate to harm.
If you scream that they are going to execute you, goodbye.
How about you tell me what benefit this would add that we can't already do, other than being legally allowed to right click harmbaton people? I've repeatedly listed several problems with this idea, and pointed out that absolutely nothing it adds is something we couldn't already do through different methods, and nobody has ever addressed any of that. They just try and argue that people won't abuse it despite the fact that we very much see plenty of cases of people getting in trouble for trying to abuse it already.

Tell me what this adds that we can't already solve through other methods. What benefit does this give us that slapping those people in the gulag, or upping their sentence to perma can't solve?
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Archie700
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Archie700 » #660305

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:59 pm
How about you tell me what benefit this would add that we can't already do, other than being legally allowed to right click harmbaton people? I've repeatedly listed several problems with this idea, and pointed out that absolutely nothing it adds is something we couldn't already do through different methods, and nobody has ever addressed any of that. They just try and argue that people won't abuse it despite the fact that we very much see plenty of cases of people getting in trouble for trying to abuse it already.

Tell me what this adds that we can't already solve through other methods. What benefit does this give us that slapping those people in the gulag, or upping their sentence to perma can't solve?
After I thought about this I realize harming people is superfluous when you can just throw them to the gulag for a long amount of time or permaing them for falsly claiming harm, because those bad-faith players will just ghost anyway.
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CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by CPTANT » #660319

Archie700 wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:11 pm
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:59 pm
How about you tell me what benefit this would add that we can't already do, other than being legally allowed to right click harmbaton people? I've repeatedly listed several problems with this idea, and pointed out that absolutely nothing it adds is something we couldn't already do through different methods, and nobody has ever addressed any of that. They just try and argue that people won't abuse it despite the fact that we very much see plenty of cases of people getting in trouble for trying to abuse it already.

Tell me what this adds that we can't already solve through other methods. What benefit does this give us that slapping those people in the gulag, or upping their sentence to perma can't solve?
After I thought about this I realize harming people is superfluous when you can just throw them to the gulag for a long amount of time or permaing them for falsly claiming harm, because those bad-faith players will just ghost anyway.
Half the shitters ghost when you give them a 100 point gulag sentence. It seems they can't comprehend that they would be out in no time if they put in a minimum of effort.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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CMDR_Gungnir
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #660324

Archie700 wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:11 pm After I thought about this I realize harming people is superfluous when you can just throw them to the gulag for a long amount of time or permaing them for falsly claiming harm, because those bad-faith players will just ghost anyway.
This has precisely been my point the entire thread. All we get out of this is the ability to harmbaton people. We've always had ways to deal with shitters like this, it's upping their sentence or giving them a harsher one (Gulag instead of a timed cell).
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Tearling
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:40 pm
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Re: Make detainees falslely accusing sec of abuse freely open to said abuse

Post by Tearling » #660809

This would give sec players more leeway to be shitters.
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Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
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