Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

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Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Mice World » #660662

Bottom post of the previous page:

What is talk/type baiting?
Talk/type baiting is the act of baiting someone to open the chat window before stunning/attacking them. An example, The HoS walks over to a station engineer, he asks the station engineer "Why did I see you walking around medbay maint?". The station engineer goes to respond by opening the talk menu. As soon as the HoS sees the typing indicator he draws his stun baton and stuns the engineer. This gives the HoS a massive advantage in the fight making the engineer's chances of winning essentially zero. Even if the HoS didn't land the stun, the engineer must quickly react and close the window putting him at a disadvantage.

Why is it bad?
Because it's an obvious abuse of the game's shortcomings. Baiting someone to open the talk window is about as nrp as you can get. It makes fights boring and ruins any hope of roleplaying with someone who might be dangerous. I can't think of anything positive type baiting adds, so why allow it?
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What rule would it be banned under?
For normal crew, Rule 12, because it's just playing to win. Ideally it would also be banned for antagonists too but currently I'm not sure if it would work with rule 4. Type baiting while similar, isn't abusing/exploiting bugs it's just abusing an engine flaw.

So! Should it be against the rules or Is it just a "skilled tactic" that should be allowed?
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Shadowflame909 » #661890

Hypothetical Problem: When "That Guy" sees the syndicate revolver in the assistants hand so he never finishes his response to the tators question so he cant be killed or else its type baiting.

Answer: The Traitor should be allowed to take non answers as an answer to their question! Maybe by affirming "Wrong Answer" or "Too late"
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by MooCow12 » #661902

Hypothetical problem: People who hate lizards will no longer be able to slay the dreaded beasts before they complete their "*wag" incantation.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Tearling » #661905

MooCow12 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:12 pm Hypothetical problem: People who hate lizards will no longer be able to slay the dreaded beasts before they complete their "*wag" incantation.
Hypothetical solution: Play atmos and lower the station's overall temperature by like 5 degrees
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Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Mice World » #662564

Not to rush the headmins but I'd really appreciate a ruling on this. I've played two rounds today and I've been type baited in both.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Pandarsenic » #662629

Shadowflame909 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:07 am Hypothetical Problem: When "That Guy" sees the syndicate revolver in the assistants hand so he never finishes his response to the tators question so he cant be killed or else its type baiting.

Answer: The Traitor should be allowed to take non answers as an answer to their question! Maybe by affirming "Wrong Answer" or "Too late"
Answer: We can see how long it is between the say being sent and the revolver being fired in the logs.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Vekter » #662633

This is one of those things that's kind of hard to judge, but I firmly believe it should be against the rules. You're using a mandatory, meta part of the game to get an advantage against someone. I think an argument could be made that it's already covered under rule 12.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Timberpoes » #662640

Just to again confirm. Typebaiting is already against the rules. Last term would have upheld any notes or bans where the admin managed to prove it. Rule 1. Rule 2. Rule 12. Doesn't matter.

Actively proving it is a different question entirely. Our term left it up to the admin themselves to figure out if it was or wasn't typebaiting. It probably happens accidentally every single shift.

Any rule would need to be cautious against making the typing indicator admin enforced plot armour, and the admin team would need to be vigilant against reverse-typebaiting: Relying on the fact you cannot be killed while typing to get the jump on someone that isn't allowed to attack you back. There is a nonzero risk that a poor rule decreases player interaction if initiating conversation makes you too vulnerable to attack. Players simply may not interact with others they want to kill.

What is the cutoff point where a conversation you initiated is no longer admin plot armour for the other person?

If you play a conflict-focused role such as sec or any antag regularly, what kind of typebaiting rules would allow you to attack others with confidence without just playing silently?
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Mice World » #662644

Timberpoes wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:17 pm Just to again confirm. Typebaiting is already against the rules. Last term would have upheld any notes or bans where the admin managed to prove it. Rule 1. Rule 2. Rule 12. Doesn't matter.
Does this apply to antagonists? Does this override rule 4? Is it a bug/exploit? These things are still debatable. If it is against the rules then it needs to be written somewhere. I wasn't aware that I could ahelp typebaiters before I made this thread. The last time I ahelped when I got typebaited the admin didn't even know what it was, so it obviously isn't clear enough.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by sinfulbliss » #662645

Timberpoes wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:17 pm Any rule would need to be cautious against making the typing indicator admin enforced plot armour, and the admin team would need to be vigilant against reverse-typebaiting: Relying on the fact you cannot be killed while typing to get the jump on someone that isn't allowed to attack you back. There is a nonzero risk that a poor rule decreases player interaction if initiating conversation makes you too vulnerable to attack. Players simply may not interact with others they want to kill.
Agreed. If an antag comes up to you, simply initiate a conversation. Now they can't kill you because you're typing. Also removes lots of possible fun antag RP scenarios since antags will be less likely to talk to people if that means they can't kill them during some unknown interval. Maybe it becomes meta to just hit T and sit there without typing after an antag says something, then inch away until you're out of range.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Timberpoes » #662646

Mice World wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:52 pm Does this apply to antagonists? Does this override rule 4? Is it a bug/exploit? These things are still debatable. If it is against the rules then it needs to be written somewhere. I wasn't aware that I could ahelp typebaiters before I made this thread. The last time I ahelped when I got typebaited the admin didn't even know what it was, so it obviously isn't clear enough.
It overrides Rule 4, because Rules 1 and 2 can override Rule 4. The primary issue I bet everyone has is antags typebaiting people.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by TheLoLSwat » #662648

getting typebaited sucks ass. players that come to the (natural) conclusion that they will have a much easier time if their opponent is talking will start developing it as a habit if they care that much about winning (which I myself did years ago on other stations when i was a little timmy player). Eventually, they will stop finding good conversation topics and will say something like "Did you hear about the heretics getting HOS?" for a free kill when

1. there hasnt been a single heretic rift spotted, nor heretic callouts in common
2. HOS walked past both players in cargo seconds before the conversation, greeting them.

Even though i made this story up, players still have come to the conclusion of typebaiting = free kills = win. This is scummy so a lot of players that recognize what is going on will refuse to employ it, but newer players and menaces dont have anything stopping them. Something as simple as "Type baiting, or starting a short meaningless (in context) conversation only in order to gain an OOC advantage in a fight, is strictly prohibited." wouldnt be a bad rule 12 precedent (originally rule 1 but i think it fits under powergaming to win more than just being a dick). It should be stressed to keep the warnings at minor notes for new players and just give them a stern talking to along with some tips on being robust. Admins should also be able to provide evidence that

1. the conversation was meaningless in context (such as HOS not only being alive and there being no sign of any heretics from earlier)
2. the aggressor initiated the conversation mainly to gain an OOC advantage in a fight.

A quick example of something that looks like typebaiting but isnt would be Barry Botanist finding the assistant that took their plants and saying "YOU ASSHOLE IM GETTING MY PLANTS BACK!!!" after spending 3 minutes threatening over comms and looking for them. If Barry Botanist initiated combat immediately after saying that but happens to catch Assistant Alvin while he is typing out "please sir ill pay for them". Even though there is combat in the middle of that IC conversation. It was not meaningless in context and you cant say for sure that you believe that Barry B. started the conversation just to gain an OOC advantage against Assistant A.

Cases wont always be open and shut like my examples, but thats not necessarily a bad thing. Substantial bans for this wouldn't be seen until an excess of notes / smaller bans, all of which could be easily appealed if the player can provide proof that the conversation wasnt meaningless and they didnt initiate it to mainly gain an advantage. Appeals can also help refine this if it ever becomes policy because im typing this from yodieland so im sure there are problems that i dont see yet with this

If antags are the problem, you can also add "Antagonists are still subject to rule 12 precedent x which bans type baiting" or something similar as a precedent to rule 1 or 4.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Shellton(Mario) » #662668

tbh if headmins want to make a ruling on this I want to see the exact ruling on it before I decide if its good or bad cuz this is one of those things that should be against the rules but I dont want everyone to have a pause button that I need to play around. Right now in till we get a mowk ruling I have 0 desire in opening this can of worms.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by NecromancerAnne » #662720

sinfulbliss wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:39 pm Agreed. If an antag comes up to you, simply initiate a conversation. Now they can't kill you because you're typing. Also removes lots of possible fun antag RP scenarios since antags will be less likely to talk to people if that means they can't kill them during some unknown interval. Maybe it becomes meta to just hit T and sit there without typing after an antag says something, then inch away until you're out of range.
If people abuse the 'no typebait rule' to escape scot free, they should get their ass kicked too. Bad faith behaviour acted behind rulings is not a defence when the rules are a guide, not an absolute right.

(that is to say, if they complain about typebaiting when shot while fleeing and feigning conversation, then they should get banned instead for banbait, duh)
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Mice World » #662724

I really wanted to type something today so I spent some time writing up more of my opinion on typebaiting and how I'd handle it as a ruling. Before I start I'd like to say that I believe this topic might benefit from being discussed further in the policybus section of discord.

"How do we define typebaiting?"
Talk/type baiting is the act of baiting someone to open the say menu with the intent of distracting them from the game. This part needs to be made clear. It ISN'T just attacking someone while they're in a conversation with you/anyone else. The reason typebaiting is considered foul play is because YOU are using OOC methods to distract your target. For it to be typebaiting you need to have the intent of typebaiting. It sounds obvious but there simply isn't a way to accidentally typebait someone, I've played ss13 for years and I've never done it. If someone happens to be mid-conversation when you attack them, you haven't distracted them with the talk menu. If you talk with your target before attacking them so long as your intent wasn't to typebait them, it isn't typebait. If someone starts talking with you before you attack them it isn't typebait.

"What is the bait?"
Typebait, requires BAIT. This is an important part of typebaiting (It's in the name). In almost all forms of effective typebaiting the bait is a meaningless question. The person asks a question baiting the victim to open the say menu and respond. The question needs to be meaningless for it to be typebait (Myself and others have given examples in this thread). It isn't typebaiting to ask a question when you want the answer, even if you attack them after they respond.

"About Talking protection/Time limits"
These aren't good ways to prevent typebait for obvious reasons and I never wanted anything like this. Talking protections would ruin the game completely and time limits would be too arbitrary.

"How should an admin handle tickets regarding talkbaiting?"
Let's give an example ticket that leaves most details hidden. (I am not an admin and I've never used admins tools to check logs. This is a rough estimate on how an admin would act.)
"Joey Silver killed me while I was typing"
First the admin checks when the ahelper died, they then check Joey's say logs around that time. Did Joey say anything? No? Not typebait then. He did? Next step.
What did Joey say? Does it in context seem like it baits a response? Did he not engage in the conversation he created? No? Not typebait. Yes? Next step.
The admin should now check Joey's attack logs. How quickly did he attack the ahelper after speaking? Did he let them respond? Yes? Depends, but it probably isn't typebait. Did he Instantly attack them? Next step.
Our admin then gets more info, they check Joey's notes or ask other admins if he has a history of doing similar things. Next step.
Finally, the admin creates a ticket with Joey. In the ticket they should focus on figuring out Joey's main intent. If Joey has a good reason for attacking them, then it isn't typebait. If Joey doesn't have a good reason then the admin notes/bans him depending on his history.

"This encourages antagonists to silently kill their targets and is bad for RP"
If you have a good reason for talking with your target it isn't typebaiting. Think, how many times have you accidentally typebaited someone? Typebaiting is deliberate. Banning typebaiting will be better for roleplay, because engaging with people won't be suicide.

"Why do you care about this so much?"
Because, to me, It's one of the worst things in this game. I've had multiple rounds ruined by people typebaiting and I'm sick off it. They're not playing to make the game better for anyone but themselves.

"Just disable the typing indicator"
This doesn't fix the problem. People can and will typebait you without it. If someone asks you a question ignoring them just because you're worried about typebaiting is bad RP.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by LoveMirror » #662745

Mice World wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:27 am "Why do you care about this so much?"
Because, to me, It's one of the worst things in this game. I've had multiple rounds ruined by people typebaiting and I'm sick off it. They're not playing to make the game better for anyone but themselves.
Typebaiting is a new term for me. On Terry, you're pretty much get attacked immediately upon saying anything to an antag (or your potential victim).
I can understand your frustration, but the solution for this problem is distance-control and footwork. Never let yourself be exposed when talking, always leave one tile space between you and a collide-object and NEVER answer stupid questions.
It's deception, plain and simple. I've learned the hard way that talking is going to end up with me getting robusted, so I always (and I mean always) keep distance between myself and suspicious individuals.

Of course, distance means nothing to a gun or a speedy dude, but at least it removes some advantage from them.
Proving a typebait is hard, too. A guy asking you for a math problem solution only to attack you is obviously getting bwoinked upon ahelping, but someone asking "do you want to see a magic trick?" before they stab you is definitely not typebaiting.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by HeyHey » #662749

I kind of like type baiting / getting type baited. When some random on the street walks up to you and asks for the time do you whip your phone out? No you'd say "nah" and walk away. Same logic when a spessman stands adjacent to you and asks an inane question.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Mice World » #662750

LoveMirror wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:07 pm
Mice World wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:27 am "Why do you care about this so much?"
Because, to me, It's one of the worst things in this game. I've had multiple rounds ruined by people typebaiting and I'm sick off it. They're not playing to make the game better for anyone but themselves.
Typebaiting is a new term for me. On Terry, you're pretty much get attacked immediately upon saying anything to an antag (or your potential victim).
I can understand your frustration, but the solution for this problem is distance-control and footwork. Never let yourself be exposed when talking, always leave one tile space between you and a collide-object and NEVER answer stupid questions.
It's deception, plain and simple. I've learned the hard way that talking is going to end up with me getting robusted, so I always (and I mean always) keep distance between myself and suspicious individuals.

Of course, distance means nothing to a gun or a speedy dude, but at least it removes some advantage from them.
Proving a typebait is hard, too. A guy asking you for a math problem solution only to attack you is obviously getting bwoinked upon ahelping, but someone asking "do you want to see a magic trick?" before they stab you is definitely not typebaiting.
I know you can avoid being typebaited and most of the time I do. It's the few times I don't that annoy me. Reacting to someone drawing a baton can be hard even if you know it's coming. You need to draw your weapon, enable combat mode, start walking away etc. I commonly forget to enable combat mode when reacting quickly, this is a skill issue but it almost never happens to me outside of getting typebaited.
I've learned the hard way that talking is going to end up with me getting robusted, so I always (and I mean always) keep distance between myself and suspicious individuals.
I disagree with this. People that typebait don't always seem suspicious, the normal looking scientist asking you a simple question might have a baton in his backpack. Typebaiting does add a level of paranoia to the game but I don't think it's worth it. Even if typebaiting is banned, talking with someone doesn't mean they won't kill you it'll just reduce the amount of obvious typebait. It bothers me when I think someone is asking me an important question or trying to actually roleplay, but nope they just wanted to stun and round remove me.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Tearling » #662792

Mice World wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:27 am Let's give an example ticket that leaves most details hidden. (I am not an admin and I've never used admins tools to check logs. This is a rough estimate on how an admin would act.)
"Joey Silver killed me while I was typing"
First the admin checks when the ahelper died, they then check Joey's say logs around that time. Did Joey say anything? No? Not typebait then. He did? Next step.
What did Joey say? Does it in context seem like it baits a response? Did he not engage in the conversation he created? No? Not typebait. Yes? Next step.
The admin should now check Joey's attack logs. How quickly did he attack the ahelper after speaking? Did he let them respond? Yes? Depends, but it probably isn't typebait. Did he Instantly attack them? Next step.
Our admin then gets more info, they check Joey's notes or ask other admins if he has a history of doing similar things. Next step.
Finally, the admin creates a ticket with Joey. In the ticket they should focus on figuring out Joey's main intent. If Joey has a good reason for attacking them, then it isn't typebait. If Joey doesn't have a good reason then the admin notes/bans him depending on his history.
If a policy requires admins to go by a flowchart of fault every time it pops up, and is not immediately evident by a glimpse of the logs, it is probably more trouble than it's worth to impliment. That being said, I made a flowchart for this because it's a funny idea.
If this becomes policy I would like to encourage admins to use this flowchart

(Long Image)
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Timberpoes wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:41 am From my perspective, players just want to genuinely be listened to. And I don't mean it condescendingly, but to genuinely have their say and for admins to listen, process it and reply. Even if you don't give two shits about what the player is saying, even if you disagree with every part of what they say, players are less likely to leave an ahelp pissed off if you've listened to them and given a reply that directly addresses what they've told you.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by LoveMirror » #662795

Tearling wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:16 pm If this becomes policy I would like to encourage admins to use this flowchart

(Long Image)
► Show Spoiler

But how do you actually prove typebaiting for sure? Maybe the attacker thought you're someone else for a split second, realized you're the target of their vengeance, and attacked during the interval?
This seems to be the crux of the issue. There's way too many excuses to make. Even "hey, tell me what you see in this bag" is technically typebait.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Mice World » #662825

Tearling wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:16 pm If a policy requires admins to go by a flowchart of fault every time it pops up, and is not immediately evident by a glimpse of the logs, it is probably more trouble than it's worth to impliment.
Most steps would only take a few seconds to check. The longest would be the ticket itself, but I'm fairly sure that's normal.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by iamgoofball » #662835

FYI folks, we log when people start and stop typing say messages, regardless of if you use typing indicators
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by blackdav123 » #662908

Typebaiting relies on the element of surprise. Any scenario where you are getting typebaited the person could have instead wordlessly batonned you, or used many other items that give ambushers a huge advantage.

Diversion is the best tool in an antag's arsenal, and is a staple of how muggers and pickpockets do their work IRL. If I was a criminal on a research station full of nerds my go to would be to ask these dorks to give me a long winded explanation of whatever they're researching, and promptly shank them and stuff them into the nearest locker.

Typebaiting is nowhere near the only way to force someone to click out a menu to move. Catch your victim at a protolathe, vending machine, any computer, or any of many other devices to get their focus away from you and your weapons.

There are plenty of ways to avoid getting typebaited. Keep distance from suspicious individuals and be prepared to scream when shit goes south. Whenever I suspect someone of typebaiting me I make the decision of whether I really care. Sometimes I do want to drag the conversation to somewhere more public, and other times I'll let them follow me into the dark alleyway for a fight without prying eyes.

On at least LRP, typebaiting should stand as a rule 12 issue for nonantags only. Losing to typebaiting is losing, and losing is part of the game.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Mice World » #662949

blackdav123 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:30 pm Typebaiting relies on the element of surprise. Any scenario where you are getting typebaited the person could have instead wordlessly batonned you, or used many other items that give ambushers a huge advantage.
Typebaiting still gives them a huge advantage. It keeps you still, locks your mouse into the talking window and gives them much more of a chance to rush you. If someone fails to ambush you with a baton it becomes a normal fight. If someone fails typebaiting, you need to close they say menu quickly then draw your weapon etc. to make it a normal fight. While this doesn't sound like much it definitely makes a big difference in combat.
blackdav123 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:30 pm Diversion is the best tool in an antag's arsenal, and is a staple of how muggers and pickpockets do their work IRL. If I was a criminal on a research station full of nerds my go to would be to ask these dorks to give me a long winded explanation of whatever they're researching, and promptly shank them and stuff them into the nearest locker.
As I said before, arguing realism is pointless but I don't think that's how muggers distract you. If I was mugging someone I'd have two main goals, 1. Don't let them see me draw my stabbing instrument of choice. 2. Get close enough so they can't run from my stabbing instrument of choice. Asking questions like "Hey buddy, got the time?" work well because it makes the victim look away from the mugger. But asking random questions like "What are you doing out so late?" will potentially make them look at the mugger, giving them time to run.
blackdav123 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:30 pm Typebaiting is nowhere near the only way to force someone to click out a menu to move. Catch your victim at a protolathe, vending machine, any computer, or any of many other devices to get their focus away from you and your weapons.
These are all fine. They're all IC. Typebaiting isn't, it's distracting your opponent with an OOC window.
blackdav123 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:30 pm On at least LRP, typebaiting should stand as a rule 12 issue for nonantags only. Losing to typebaiting is losing, and losing is part of the game.
Banning it just for normal crew won't solve anything and at that point I'd rather it not be banned at all.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #662960

Mice World wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:30 am
blackdav123 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:30 pm Typebaiting is nowhere near the only way to force someone to click out a menu to move. Catch your victim at a protolathe, vending machine, any computer, or any of many other devices to get their focus away from you and your weapons.
These are all fine. They're all IC. Typebaiting isn't, it's distracting your opponent with an OOC window.
Wait wait wait. So you're telling me that you want us to ban baiting based on the rp relation of the HUD windows?

The whole point of it is that it distracts people, blocks their screen and their inputs, etc.,

So you're totally fine with me asking you to pull out your pda to bait you, like, say, I ask you as an engineer to bring up NT CIMS on your PDA to tell me the temperature of the supermatter, but you do take issue with me asking you for your cake recipe?

Please explain how this is coherent, when they are exactly the same from a gameplay perspective and the impact they will have on you as the baited party.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Mice World » #662972

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:50 am Wait wait wait. So you're telling me that you want us to ban baiting based on the rp relation of the HUD windows?
Yes, because this is a roleplaying game. The entire point of the rules is to create a good roleplaying environment. Baiting someone with an OOC feature = Bad because it isn't roleplaying. Baiting someone with an IC feature = Fine because it's roleplaying.
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:50 am The whole point of it is that it distracts people, blocks their screen and their inputs, etc.,
That's true, but I see bait using in-game items to be okay. Talkbaiting makes it hard to even interact with anyone you don't trust. Talking is the most base actions you can do on ss13, It's what makes 90% of the stories interesting. I think you should be able to answer simple questions without the fear of being instantly stunned and round removed. But you should be thinking "Do I really want to look at my PDA here?" or "Should I really print tools in front of this person?".
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:50 am So you're totally fine with me asking you to pull out your pda to bait you, like, say, I ask you as an engineer to bring up NT CIMS on your PDA to tell me the temperature of the supermatter, but you do take issue with me asking you for your cake recipe?
You're using, and I repeat, an in-game item. It's just like telling someone you're mugging to look at their phone.
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:50 am Please explain how this is coherent, when they are exactly the same from a gameplay perspective and the impact they will have on you as the baited party.
Because they're not the same. One is healthy and adds paranoia. The other is "If I even try talking with this person they will just kill me, so why bother?" Why try to even interact with someone on a basic level if it just gets you killed? Typebaiting ruins one the core mechanics of ss13, talking. Baiting someone into looking at their PDA is fine because it doesn't exploit an OOC mechanic and actually takes roleplay to accomplish.

EDIT: I feel like I'm not getting my point across. I don't like typebaiting because to me, it feels like it ruins the roleplaying experience. I don't think looking at PDAs or something like that does the same. Talking is super super important, the game is built around it.
Last edited by Mice World on Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by blackdav123 » #662999

Mice World wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:44 pm EDIT: I feel like I'm not getting my point across. I don't like typebaiting because to me, it feels like it ruins the roleplaying experience. I don't think looking at PDAs or something like that does the same. Talking is super super important, the game is built around it.
I just feel that typebaiting someone provides just as much roleplay as the other scenarios. Instantly batonning someone is very doable and gives the victim the same window to shout "HELP" over comms as typebaiting does. Any scenario where you'd want to typebait someone saying nothing would be nearly as effective, but without the roleplaying aspect of thinking of a good question to stun your victim with.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Agux909 » #663006

blackdav123 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:52 pm
Mice World wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:44 pm EDIT: I feel like I'm not getting my point across. I don't like typebaiting because to me, it feels like it ruins the roleplaying experience. I don't think looking at PDAs or something like that does the same. Talking is super super important, the game is built around it.
I just feel that typebaiting someone provides just as much roleplay as the other scenarios. Instantly batonning someone is very doable and gives the victim the same window to shout "HELP" over comms as typebaiting does. Any scenario where you'd want to typebait someone saying nothing would be nearly as effective, but without the roleplaying aspect of thinking of a good question to stun your victim with.
Yeah except you are effectively and purely OOC locking them from responding to your actions, because their current keyboard focus has inevitably shifted to a text box, and the typing indicator is the giant literal sign over their head indicating that this is the case.

Saying nothing wouldn't be the same because they at least can preemptively move around and stay tiles away from someone suspiciously getting close. Because when saying nothing, the keyboard focus, which is the input for a high percentage of the things we do in the game, is not locked to a text editor.

When you start typing something, this OOCly locks you from taking measures while you're typing your response. This is sort of an OOC trust you're giving to the other player. Why would you give this trust the other player? Because as a roleplaying game, interactions are good. And more so when they're done in good faith and properly reciprocated, even if noone's entitled to them, and regardless of the outcome.

What Mice describes has happened to them, is a bad-intentioned breach of that trust. A nrp play-to-win mentality abusing a known OOC handicap.
The handicap: being a good sport, stopping for a fucking second, and having your fictional character interact with another fictional character. Then it can go anywhere from there.

And for the RL scenarios comparison, typing indicators and say boxes don't exist IRL when you TALK to someone, so there's no comparison in that regard. You just speak, and are able to do so while doing other things. This isn't the case in the game, and won't ever be unless speech-to-text or voice are introduced, and we never need to be typing anything again, using the kb exclusively for mechanical gameplay and the exceptions (paper writing, pda messages, etc)
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by HeyHey » #663022

Saying nothing wouldn't be the same because they at least can preemptively move around and stay tiles away from someone suspiciously getting close. Because when saying nothing, the keyboard focus, which is the input for a high percentage of the things we do in the game, is not locked to a text editor.

When you start typing something, this OOCly locks you from taking measures while you're typing your response. This is sort of an OOC trust you're giving to the other player. Why would you give this trust the other player? Because as a roleplaying game, interactions are good. And more so when they're done in good faith and properly reciprocated, even if noone's entitled to them, and regardless of the outcome.
Fun fact everyone is overlooking in this discussion. You can move while typing!

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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #663042

HeyHey wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:03 am
Saying nothing wouldn't be the same because they at least can preemptively move around and stay tiles away from someone suspiciously getting close. Because when saying nothing, the keyboard focus, which is the input for a high percentage of the things we do in the game, is not locked to a text editor.

When you start typing something, this OOCly locks you from taking measures while you're typing your response. This is sort of an OOC trust you're giving to the other player. Why would you give this trust the other player? Because as a roleplaying game, interactions are good. And more so when they're done in good faith and properly reciprocated, even if noone's entitled to them, and regardless of the outcome.
Fun fact everyone is overlooking in this discussion. You can move while typing!

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Ignoring the fact that muscle memory is a bitch and most people aren't going to be used to using arrow keys for their movement;

The arrow keys interact with the chat box. I'm pretty sure left and right move around where in your message what you're typing comes out, but I know for a fact that up and down directly interact with it, because Up goes back to your previous messages, so you can repeat things if someone missed it because they'd just rounded a corner.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #663052

To my knowledge you can only use arrow keys to move while typing if you're not a hotkey mode user (typing in the chatbar) and have clicked back onscreen once to put focus on the game rather than the chatbar (You can type while running via a similar less-fiddling method)
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by HeyHey » #663069

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:27 pm To my knowledge you can only use arrow keys to move while typing if you're not a hotkey mode user (typing in the chatbar) and have clicked back onscreen once to put focus on the game rather than the chatbar (You can type while running via a similar less-fiddling method)
That's a hotkey issue then if you just hit tab start typing and then hit enter you can move the entire time.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by warbluke » #663093

Why do people even use hotkeys if stuff like this keeps happening.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by blackdav123 » #663144

another op way to beat typebaiters: click out of the text window and start running
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Mice World » #665852

Any updates on this? Or should I wait for the next set of headmins?
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by sinfulbliss » #667333

Mice World wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:21 pm I disagree with this. People that typebait don't always seem suspicious, the normal looking scientist asking you a simple question might have a baton in his backpack. Typebaiting does add a level of paranoia to the game but I don't think it's worth it. Even if typebaiting is banned, talking with someone doesn't mean they won't kill you it'll just reduce the amount of obvious typebait. It bothers me when I think someone is asking me an important question or trying to actually roleplay, but nope they just wanted to stun and round remove me.
I would echo what LoveMirror said as very good tips to play by but also because even if this gets a ruling of “yes it’s bannable” I don’t envision it being feasible to prove or enforce without a very massive headache for everyone involved, so it’s worth figuring out how to avoid IC. You are right that even after taking necessary precautions (keeping 2+ tiles distance, being ready to close the chat window quickly, being wary of suspicious individuals) you can still lose the initiative purely in virtue of trying to type and formulate a response, and this can get you killed if you don’t react extremely quickly. Which you might not be liable to do in an RP mindset.

The best way to combat this is by sussing it out before it happens. We can use the instance you ran into that prompted this thread, although in that instance you reacted quickly despite getting baited and managed to nullify his initiative - there are ways to avoid this entirely. First he asked you to come with him, and lured you into the courtroom where you didn’t have access. When anyone asks you to come with them you should expect it to be a trap, especially for dubious reasons, but suppose you wanted to humor them anyway for roleplay reasons. The critical thing to notice was the fact he kept moving up closer to you whenever you tried to footwork away to create safe distance - BEFORE he typed. That is often the dead giveaway. They won’t type their message until they’re close enough so that, after they send it, they’re in ambush range while you’re replying. You'll move away a bit to keep distance, they'll cancel their message and close the distance then restart their message, you'll move away, and it repeats. When they're this fixated on keeping close to you, you can be pretty sure the intention of the interaction is not "roleplaying" and they’re just trying to bait you. The exception are newer players or good faith roleplayers who just want to be close to someone they’re talking to, but those are easy to identify by their no-sunglasses wholesome little spaceman faces - and these types give up closing the distance unlike the typebaiter.

This footwork part works nearly every time for me. You don’t use it to give yourself more reaction time (although it helps with that too), you use it to sus out if they’re trying to bait you to begin with so you know whether to actually roleplay or be ready for mechanics. The last part to look for is what their bait statement is, and in that case I think I remember his question being really mundane like “hows medbay going” (brought you to the courtroom to ask that?), although after they send the message it’s often too late if you haven’t done the previous step since you will probably open up the chatbox before processing the question and determining it’s bait. Sometimes you can catch it before replying at all and use it as a reason to increase the spacing before replying.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Mice World » #667341

sinfulbliss wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 11:26 am snip
You're right and I usually try to avoid being typebaited. The time you mentioned I was fairly bored (kilo lowpop) and was looking for an opportunity to roleplay with someone. I went along with him because I thought "Well I might get the chance to talk with someone, or we can just fight." and both of these outcomes are enjoyable. When he asked the question I thought "Oh, he's probably typebaiting me. But whatever he could be roleplaying." so I went along with it. The problem isn't that I get killed. The problem is that it makes me feel like talking with people is a waste of time. Also I don't think the captain was moving closer to me. From memory we both started talking at opposite sides of a table.

But sometimes you just can't avoid it. Last time it happened I was playing security. I was the only officer during a xeno outbreak so I was trying to handout riot helmets and gear everyone up. As I was walking out of sec an assistant walked up to me and said something like "X is a traitor right?". I went to respond and bam. Stunned, killed, suit removed, body hidden and never found. Nothing reasonable to be done here. Unless standing 5+ tiles away from everyone at all times is reasonable.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by wesoda25 » #667808

I don't think anything should be changed. Admins can invoke rule 0,1, or 12 as they feel necessary, but there shouldn't be any precedents or rulings written down. This suits the nature of type baiting, which is a very large grey area and all examples of it aren't necessarily totally bad. I suspect a lot of the game revolves around type-baiting, and some of us probably utilize it in some form to a significant degree, whether we're aware of it or not. If an admin is going to risk sticking their neck out, then their reasoning better be sound, as opposed to them just hiding behind precedent or rulings and not being able to concretely justify why that instance of type baiting was bad for the round/server beyond "type baiting bad, it says so in the rules".
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Mice World » #667834

wesoda25 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 5:54 pm I don't think anything should be changed. Admins can invoke rule 0,1, or 12 as they feel necessary, but there shouldn't be any precedents or rulings written down.
I understand what you're saying (even if I disagree that typebaiting can ever be good.) but it should be somewhere in the rules. Most people won't ahelp it otherwise.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by Vekter » #667837

I don't think this needs a rules change per se, but we should at least have a ruling saying it's not okay that we can point to specifically.
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Re: Talk/type baiting - should it be against the rules?

Post by spookuni » #667957

Till recently the admin team has been operating under an old headmin memo that blatant type-baiting can be ruled as metagaming and is actionable by admins. We're going to continue that as our official ruling on the matter.

Blatant type-baiting (I.E. Explicitly using short questions to get someone to open a chat window such that they cannot respond when you promptly attack them) is metagaming, and can be actioned by any admin who is confident in making the call.

This comes with the caveat that simply attacking people while talking or interrupting conversations is not type baiting, nor is attacking someone for refusing to answer a question at all (provided the attack is legitimate to begin with) - Type baiting is generally very hard for admins to prove, it is and will remain primarily actionable when an admin is observing directly to see it happen, logs are rarely (though sometimes) effective proof of something that is so time and context sensitive.

Spook: I personally despise type baiting, and would like to see it as gone as possible, but I am equally strongly against the outcome where antagonistic or security aligned players simply refuse to talk at all to avoid potential accusations of type-baiting. Nor do I think an explicit codified requirement to wait some specific amount of time before engaging out of a conversation is a good idea - shooting a pithy one liner at someone mid conversation before you murder them after lulling them into a false sense of security is cool and engaging, conversations shouldn't be safe.
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