Naming policy draft public perusal thread

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spookuni
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Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by spookuni » #661049

Bottom post of the previous page:

After way too long in drafting and with a significant amount of time staring at words until they make sense again, I finally have a draft for the proposed new naming policy that the admin and headmin teams don't hate enough to release publicly for the community to have a look at.

This draft isn't final, and is still open to changes, but is likely pretty close to what we're looking for in the final policy. If you've got any feedback, you can post it here or/and in the policybus thread I'll be putting up after a few days for this topic, so without further ado

----
Names for all species must not violate rules 3, 8 and 11 (I.E, not explicitly OOC, not creepy or sexual, and not bigoted) and must not be intentionally hard to spell. Examples of excessively OOC names include but are not limited to: References to real life persons or historical figures, or references to the characters existing in a game or game mechanics. Additionally, different character species have different requirements and guidelines: (Spook note – these can be split up onto the different species pages on the wiki after amendment / if they remain in their current state post-drafting, the main rules page does not need the guidelines for every species)

Humans: Characters are required to have a first name and a last name, and may have up to one title, honorific or nickname. Names should meet a minimum standard of good faith - references to historical figures, juvenile nonsense (examples: Poop Boy, Dorkhead Mcgee, Syndie Fukr), excessive puns or any violation of the above rules will be rejected as names. (MRP): While silly or unrealistic names on the MRP servers are still okay, names should meet the higher standard of avoiding explicit references and blatant jokes or puns.

Felinids: Felinids largely follow the human guidelines of requiring a first name and a last name but have a somewhat higher tolerance for silly or pun names, especially cat or food puns.

Lizards: Lizard names should either consist of two psuedo-words linked by a hyphen (example: Geeta-Jin, Azel-Zaw), or some variant of verbs-the-noun or equivalents (example: Made-For-Greatness, Scales-of-Silver, Sings-With-Frogs)

Ethereals: Ethereals names consist of the name of a celestial body (or a name that reasonably sounds like it could be a celestial body) followed by one to three capital letters. (MRP): Real celestial bodies with dumb names are excluded from reasonable ethereal names on MRP (yes the Eye of Sauron Nebula exists, no you cannot name an ethereal EyeOfSauron XP on MRP)

Plasmamen: Plasmamen names consist of an element, alloy or compound name followed by one to three roman numerals.

Moths: Moth names generally consist of some combination of latin words (primarily moth taxonomic names strung together), but receive a specific exemption to have any character name (justified in character as a nickname) they like that does not violate the general requirements to comply with rules 3, 8 and 11 (a minimum of effort is however still required even for silly moth names to ensure we don’t end up with 53 moths named “lamp” and 78 moths named “moth”)

Exceptions: Wizards, Nuclear Operatives and Performers (Mimes and Clowns): All of these are exempt from normal naming requirements for a believable or normal name and have partial clearance for minor but explicitly OOC references in their names, but should still hold back from too excessively OOC, or anything that violates rules 8 or 11 (Run-by-Chat the fake-streamer clown is okay, whentheantagisvalid the mime is not)

Interspecies naming: If a player has a character backstory that reasonably explains why a character of one species is using the naming convention of another, they may substitute the naming convention of their actual species for another, a human raised by lizards could use a verbs-the-noun style name, for example or a lizard raised by plasmamen may use their elemental naming scheme. The exception to this is that the moth nickname exemption is non-transferable, non-moths may use their base latin/taxonomic naming scheme with character reasons, but you cannot name a human "Table" with the excuse that they were raised by Moths.

The Gimmick Exemption: Names that lean on or are technically in violation of naming policy may at admin discretion receive an exemption to be used temporarily to enable interesting, entertaining or plain fun character gimmicks. Admins are encouraged to allow this where possible as long as players are putting in a good faith effort to use the exemption in ways that are beneficial for everyone. Characters using this exemption should not become a player’s primary player character in the long term – a few rounds as “high-lord Bob” can easily be made interesting, but gimmicks wear down and 50 rounds in it just becomes a drag for everyone else, to say nothing of 200 – keep gimmicks short sweet and interesting.
----

A particular note of interest are ethereal names - several LRP admins are interested in removing the MRP division I have drafted in and outright banning stupid-but-technically-legal ethereal names on all servers, given my relative unfamiliarity with server culture on LRP, I'm interested to know what the community thinks of that proposal.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by BlueMemesauce » #662317

dirk_mcblade wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:26 am Both Chinese governments follow a given name / surname system (aka first name last name system). Show me a government form that does otherwise if you want to dispute this, otherwise I don't see the point over this hand wringing concerning cultural sensitivity when the game already follows a standard held by the largest East Asian government. In addition I believe Japan follows this convention too.
I thought that the majority of Chinese names had 3 characters, but you posted 2 exceptions so maybe I was wrong. But you can still see that 彭小敏 (Peng Xiao Ming) has 3 parts to the name. On a passport there are only 2 names, the surname and given name. The last two characters are both part of the given name in Chinese, but when Romanized there would be 3 names.
dirk_mcblade wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:26 am I emphasize there's probably more people in China/Korea/Japan playing one round of Apex right now (60 players) than there are playing across all of SS13's servers. This game isn't remotely on their cultures' radar, and I think it's a waste of time changing policy when it's something they neither know about nor likely would care about even if they did.
There's no rule saying you can only name your characters based on the country you're from. I have a Chinese character named Ren Zhi Ping even though I'm not Chinese.
Last edited by BlueMemesauce on Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by dirk_mcblade » #662318

BlueMemesauce wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:14 pm
dirk_mcblade wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:26 am Both Chinese governments follow a given name / surname system (aka first name last name system). Show me a government form that does otherwise if you want to dispute this, otherwise I don't see the point over this hand wringing concerning cultural sensitivity when the game already follows a standard held by the largest East Asian government. In addition I believe Japan follows this convention too.
The passports say Given Names instead of Given Name. That is because some Chinese people have 2 given names. I thought that was the majority of Chinese names but you posted 2 exceptions so maybe I was wrong. But you can still see that 彭小敏 (Peng Xiao Ming) has 3 names.
dirk_mcblade wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:26 am I emphasize there's probably more people in China/Korea/Japan playing one round of Apex right now (60 players) than there are playing across all of SS13's servers. This game isn't remotely on their cultures' radar, and I think it's a waste of time changing policy when it's something they neither know about nor likely would care about even if they did.
There's no rule saying you can only name your characters based on the country you're from. I have a Chinese character named Ren Zhi Ping even though I'm not Chinese.
小敏 is one name, not two. Many Chinese people have two characters as their given name, though sometimes it's just one character.
You frequently have to combine two characters to make one complete word in Chinese. For example 電腦 is computer, 電池 is battery. Both share the character 電 which is used for electricity but it wouldn't be accurate to say 電腦 is two words, it's one word.
Similarly someone named 小敏 wouldn't respond separately to either 小 or 敏, their name is 小敏.
In fact if you look at foreigners having their names transliterated to Chinese you'll see they're often assigned three characters. Julia Roberts for example has Julia transliterated to 茱莉亞. Three characters, one name.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by BlueMemesauce » #662322

That's true, so I edited my comment now but my question is if you Romanized a Chinese name into the game this rule would force you to write it as Ren Zhiping even though its just as valid to write it as Ren Zhi Ping or Ren Zhi-Ping. If you search Ren Zhi Ping on duckduck go you will see that there are people who write it as Ren Zhi Ping and Ren Zhi-Ping, but nobody who wrote it as Ren Zhiping.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by dirk_mcblade » #662337

I won't argue against Zhi Ping being more common on search engines but I'll just say that Mandarin Pinyin wasn't really standardized across all of China until the PRC began and there are significant Chinese populations who left China before the CCP took over and for those populations it's kind of a free for all for how they spell things if they don't want to follow the PRCs system. There's something like two or three other standardized systems of romanizing Mandarin aside from the PRC system. I don't really know the context behind the name Zhi Ping so I can't explain why it's written that way. Could be someone claiming they have a middle name. Could be a name that isn't popular amongst mainlanders, or for whatever reason there's fewer Zhipings with a footprint outside the firewall than other mainland names.

Is the policy against having a space in the first name field? Seems like that ought to handle the majority of cultures out there.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by Archie700 » #662339

I would just like to point out that Ren Zhiping, Ren Zhi Ping and Ren Zhi-ping are all equally valid ways to romanize the name. (You know, like Xi Jingping)

Korean names also follow the Surname - Given Name system. For example, Jo Jin-Sang would have Jo as the surname and Jin-Sang as the given name. Though usually, the given name is hyphenated in the case of Korean names.

The key is that characters from Chinese, Korean and Japan are not necessarily words. They are more like syllables that form words.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by BlueMemesauce » #662351

So in the end Dirk is right about the policy not affecting East Asian names as they could just use a hyphen or write both characters as one word. But there's still the fact that Indian and Middle Eastern names are usually made up of more than 2 actual names that aren't just characters, so they couldn't delete a space. They might be able to add a hyphen but I don't think that follows the naming practices of those countries.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by dirk_mcblade » #662373

Are there cases of admins noting people for having a middle name would be my question. Name policy seems to say humans should have a Firstname Lastname format but doesn't explicitly ban middle names. Seems like changing it to Given Name, Surname (a la passports) would fix any issue.
The only name related ban appeal I saw so far was some admin dinging a guy for using bombs with a middle eastern name. And some guy naming himself Mothman or something. Not exactly the same thing.
I think I also read a wiki saying middle initials plus honorifics are too much (ie Randolph P. Checkers, Esquire). But if there's cases of admins cracking down on names that are standard in some real life places then maybe the policy should be reworded slightly.
That's pretty much the last of my two cents I think so I'll step back unless reading something else makes me sperg out.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by Misdoubtful » #662384

Misdoubtful wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:25 am My other post
Misdoubtful wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:11 pm I didn't really post Bee's as a 'hey this is the be all end all'. Its a great starting point (Maybe one of the best starting points) but does it really meet the player/community expectations here?

I had started a naming policy draft for another server like two years ago, went and collected every single servers naming policy, saw how it looked across multiple rounds, tried to identify the best parts and worst parts of all of them considering the community I was making them for, make something great, and it still wasn't going to be right, so I ended up dropping it to come back to at another time.

That being said every server that had consistent naming set a bar for what was unacceptable and examples of such.

Consider this part of Goons:
Bigoted language (for example, slurs) is also not allowed in your ... character name ... whether as a joke, or masked with misspellings or spoonerisms. This rule also extends to cover bigotry and discrimination based around a player's in-game race, species, or gender identity.

Do not name your character after political or controversial figures. If you're unsure what might constitute as controversial: avoid naming your character after murderers, abusers, religious figures, or any name you've heard of in the news. Naming yourself Lise Meitner is fine, but naming yourself OJ Simpson is not. If an admin tells you to change your name because it's based on a political or controversial figure, it is not an invitation for debate. Change it or go elsewhere.
This blurb from Paradise:
The rules around names have changed over time. Right now the standard is that having unique names is highly encouraged. We want people to make their own characters, not just copy-paste someone from other media. However, being inspired by other media (Especially sci-fi) is quite understandable and enjoyable, but the character should be a unique personality, not just a character from another media “in space”. IRL figures (Barrack Obama, Betty White, etc) are not to be used at all.

Characters named Walter White who go around dealing meth are so overplayed that that admins are permitted to spawn in a character to shoot them to death and say “I am the danger”. Diona named Groot are overplayed and may be messed with by admins or just asked to change their name. JoJo references are a meme by themselves, and are more frowned upon as reference names for being more memey.

Do not name your character something sexually explicit.
This bit from CM:
Use a reasonable, unique, lore-friendly character name that has a first name and surname. Short reasonable nicknames are allowed inside the name (e.g. Derek 'Double-D' Donahue, Jane 'Crusher' Sanchez). Other character names should not be used, this includes ckeys. Nicknames should not be considered a meme. Nicknames should also not be slurs, 18+ content, etc... You may be a sibling or cousin of another player's character, however you cannot play another player's character unless it's part of a staff event. References can be made to characters in the Official CM-SS13 lore. Xenomorph prefixs should not be 18+ or slurs as well. Staff retain rights to make the final judgement if a name or Xenomorph prefix is acceptable or unacceptable.

Ranked, titled, honorific, offensive, famous and pop-culture names are not allowed
Roman numerals may be used, but should not be excessive.
Nicknames should not be written in all Caps Lock
Nicknames should at the maximum contain two words.

Acceptable Names
Arthur Walker
Jeremy Bennett
Becky Jones

Unacceptable Names/Prefixes
Adolf Hitler
Vladimir Putin
Donald Trump
Johnny 'Nazi' Johnson
Mike Rotch
David Weyland
Ellen Ripley
DIK
FAG
NIG
XIG
Names that are sexual puns/references of banned words/topics.

Exceptions
A name comprised of extremely common names (I.E John Williams) can be excused for being shared with someone otherwise forbidden, provided the player is not attempting to play as the linked person.

Or this piece from Yog:
General Rules
When in doubt, human naming rules can be used for any race unless otherwise stated below.

No names of famous people or things, real or fictional
Silicons, clown/mime, and wizards are exempt from this portion of the rule as long as the name is thematically appropriate
No titles or honorifics (Mr, Dr, -san, etc)
Silicons, clown/mime, and wizards are exempt from this portion of the rule as long as the name is thematically appropriate
No obscene words (including words that sound similar, even if the spelling is different)
If you are unsure or need ideas for names, the default names can be used as a reference
The max length of a name is 42 characters, however, using more than 30 characters is discouraged
Humans
Must have a first and last name
Middle initials are permitted, and middle names can be used as long as the character count is not exceeded
Must use a name that would be reasonable for a human to have in our world
Ex: Jacob Johnson, Micah J Collins
Even this from Aurora:
Characters must be named following a Firstname Lastname model (e.g. "John Smith"). No honorifics, nicknames or middle names (with exceptions for compound names such as Van/Von/Bin X). Think of your in-game name as the name printed on your work ID. Exceptions are made to alien races with alternate naming mechanics, such as the Diona or IPCs, please consult their specific wiki pages for exact details. In general, avoid reference/famous/joke names, please.
What do they all have in common?
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by HeyHey » #662388

The real question that should be asked when making a name policy is "why should anyone care?". Outside of offensive names ex Timmy Hitler, Hates-The-X is it worthy annoying the player base with notes/bans for names?
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by Agux909 » #662652

I'm starting to think than outside of these fringe, bad faith cases, the rest of policy should instead be turned into guidelines.

Let people have freedom with their characters and names, NT doesn't care how you're named, they're barely able to get you to board their terrible spess investment.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by TheLoLSwat » #662698

NT shouldnt care about a random assistant only having a firstname and lastname, considering how rare it would be for all of the big minds at nanotrasen to be descendents of only cultures that follow the same naming convention.

if an admin doesnt like your name and it is egregiously breaking rules they should be able to yell at you to change it
if an admin doesnt like your name and it isnt egregriously breaking rules they should consult another admin before yelling at them to change it or they should ask the player to change it but not force them to
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by Redrover1760 » #663807

This is HRP bullshit. No offense.

For LRP, you don't need race naming restrictions at all. Instead, ID cards should also list the species of the individual if examined directly. Its a sci-fi environment, forcing humans to obey "earth naming standards" is dumb. Same with everyone other race having to obey their own "culture naming standards." A Hardass Lizard trained as a space samurai or war veteran who gave up their own name to be called "Blade"? Banned because changing your own name is illegal. A moth who is so addicted to botany that everyone only know and call him as "Garden Moth" and it is effectively his name so you use that instead? Banned, for having a two word "descriptor" as a name.

You can already see the cracks with how there's already exemptions to the actual list you proposed. The only way to fix this is to try allowing more player freedom. If it allows some subpar names to get through, who cares! Its literally just a name, it barely even matters unless its being used to grief people, troll, or is excessively OOC or pop culturally in some way. And even then, people have done cool stuff with pop culture names anyways. Its clear that names arent the issue, but rather bad faith actors are, and thus a naming policy does not need to be restrictive at all, the only goal here is to catch the bad actors, not the creative roleplayers.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by stewydeadmike » #663861

yeah I'm not convinced we really need such a well defined naming policy especially since TG's vibe isn't really that serious to warrant it. Like as long as someone can come up with a semi-coherent explanation for why they have that name beyond "I thought it would be funny lmao", I don't really see the harm in having a goofy name.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by spookuni » #663920

Right, so this was delayed by a lot of stuff on my end, but trying to push it forward so things do get done.

As a first step, I'm really not interested in removing or significantly loosing naming policy. Even with the generally silly vibe /tg/ maintains, we still want to maintain a certain degree of verisimilitude, and I and others do believe that somewhat consistent and generally believable character names contribute heavily to that.

In regards to the guidelines for character naming.

Re: Human names and alternate real world naming schemes

I'm not opposed to expanding out the human naming guidelines to include three word names or other real world naming schemes, though I'm a bit leery about moronism

Additionally, I'm somewhat partial to the idea of letting any species use human naming conventions as they like no questions asked as mentioned by Misdoubtful in their quotes from other codebase's rulesets.

Re: Felinids

I'm not particularly attached to the loosened naming restrictions for felinids - it was suggested internally and we generally thought it'd be nice to separate them out from humans a bit more, if this is generally unpopular however it can easily be retracted. I will however mention the contradiction between the viewpoint that felinids are too much like humans so why do we have them and steadfast opposition to any steps to differentiate felinids from humans.

Re: Moths

Moths are getting a pass in these rules because functionally they already have one, outside of the incredibly low effort chaff names (RIP all the moths named lamp who've been purged over the years). Moths already *have* a functionally unrestricted naming policy beyond the most central rules. I honestly don't really want to impinge on that, as I think having an outlet for people to be silly and / or creative in their character names is a good thing, even though I think opening the floodgates entirely would be a bad idea

Re: Ethereals

Ethereals are something I'm undecided on, because while I like the ethereal naming scheme personally I can see where people are coming from in it being somewhat restricted. On the one hand this does lead to a more unified identify for ethereal in game, on the other it does that by likely excluding people who'd probably be very happy to play Lumen John the lightbulb - though whether that is a good or bad thing I am likewise undecided on. I'll probably be leaving this for policy bus discussion before making a final call.

Speaking of, I'll be putting up the policybus thread for this in a moment, pending trying to finalise it up a push whatever is decided on through.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by Cobby » #663921

Cobby wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:50 pm If one race can have it a player should be able to play as any other race and use that naming scheme "my adopted parents are X race so thats why my name is that".

If a name is dumb it shouldnt matter what species you are (assuming the point of naming schemes is for muh immersion and not to be pedantic).
We got the first part but not entirely the second, in which dumb names are curbed by the fact someone is playing X race.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by ekaterina » #664580

Who asked for this? What's wrong with the current policy? Why fix what isn't broken?
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by Agux909 » #664598

ekaterina wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:50 pm Who asked for this? What's wrong with the current policy? Why fix what isn't broken?
.Players who've gotten bwoinked/appearance banned over their character names.
.The current policy is too vague and too admin-taste dependant, and as such admins can ban (and have banned) you because they didn't personally like your character's name.
.See the two above.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by BangingDonk » #665874

The proposed lizard naming scheme kills several lizard names, including mine, and as such I am not a fan.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by Timberpoes » #670452

Other (now closed) discussion threads on this topic:
"Make naming Policy more strict/clear"
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32558

"Enforce name policy or abolish it."
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32660

"THE better naming policy"
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=33154
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by Vekter » #675332

ekaterina wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:50 pm Who asked for this? What's wrong with the current policy? Why fix what isn't broken?
Admins have been asking for it for a while as well as pretty much anyone we've asked to change their name. The current system (which is effectively vibes-based given how broad it is) isn't consistent enough and we quite often get problems with someone being asked to change their name being met with "BUT NOBODY ELSE SAID IT WASN'T ALLOWED".
BangingDonk wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:35 am The proposed lizard naming scheme kills several lizard names, including mine, and as such I am not a fan.
You should probably tell us your name?
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by BlueMemesauce » #677786

Vekter wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:34 am You should probably tell us your name?
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by BlueMemesauce » #677787

The rules also ban mononyms for humans which do exist in some Asian countries like Afghanistan and Indonesia
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by Vekter » #678061

Yeah, kind of the only issue I have with doing a naming policy. It's going to make some people change their names. I feel like we should be able to give people a pass if we feel that name is 1) in good faith and 2) isn't a major break from the naming policy. We'd solve a lot of problems by having a clause that says "Players who want to use a name outside of the normal naming policy can request approval from a game admin or higher" and we'd just give them a note saying "Yeah, we said this is okay". We'd still have things being admittedly a little vibe-based, but anything too far out would be something we could discuss on a case by case basis. Mind you, anything we'd give a pass to would need to be something just slightly out of normal convention, so something like a moth named Lamp or a human with a mononym would probably be okay. Someone with a name like Fourtwenty Smokeweed would obviously be denied.

It's always been my opinion that we need to have a naming policy for the sake of giving people guidelines on what their names should be and giving admins the power to ask people to change them, but that the policy should be flexible in a way that lets people be creative if they really wish to.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by BlueMemesauce » #678774

The problem is that's basically what we have now, but it hasn't been good for policy for individual admins to decide who's name is acceptable. I think this policy is a good compromise because it clearly defines what names are allowed while allowing some level of creativity. It just needs to be expanded to allow for more creativity because it's currently too strict.
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by Vekter » #678775

BlueMemesauce wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 4:07 am The problem is that's basically what we have now, but it hasn't been good for policy for individual admins to decide who's name is acceptable.
Except it's not, because in the situation we have now, it's opt-out. Players have no agency over the matter, if an admin thinks it's over the line, they step in and address it. In the system that I'm proposing (which is effectively "the system in this thread but with specific leniency"), a player can come to us and say "Hey, I know this name doesn't fit naming policy, but I like it and it works for my character" and an admin can look at it and determine if it's acceptable or not. It covers all of the edge cases by basically just giving players the ability to reach out and get permission to use something we wouldn't normally allow.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Re: Naming policy draft public perusal thread

Post by Farquaar » #678858

Vekter wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 8:37 pm Yeah, kind of the only issue I have with doing a naming policy. It's going to make some people change their names.
Forcing players to try new things would be a good result, not a bad result.
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