Make revs not allowed to kill people without at least a reason

[Kubisopplay]

Bottom post of the previous page:

As the title says. Currently revs have free pass to murderbone anything without the R floating above them, with a weak line of "don't do anything that could inconvenience your team". I propose to change it into the current security post-rev. That means that revs would be free to kill: Heads of Staff, for obvious reasons, security, and anyone mindshielded. Everyone else would be allowed only if they directly threatened the revs.
The change would allow revolutions to involve more people than the current situation of "Be murdering or be dead"
This would also somewhat tie into finally deciding the status after post revs, but that would need to be discussed more.

[kopoba]

Please don’t quote the wiki as scripture or I’m making it say you’re an idiot.

Its not from wiki. Suck it.

[blackdav123]

I will reiterate the point of this thread is that getting flashed being a green light to go behead everybody in medbay with a spear is fucking stupid

[Vekter]

I would also like to reiterate that I'm 99% sure this is already against the rules per rule 1; just killing random people for literally no reason as a rev has never been okay to my knowledge. Mind you that a "valid reason" could be something as simple as "they caught me flashing someone", but I've always treated killing someone as a rev for literally no reason like random murder.

[blackdav123]

I would also like to reiterate that I'm 99% sure this is already against the rules per rule 1; just killing random people for literally no reason as a rev has never been okay to my knowledge. Mind you that a "valid reason" could be something as simple as "they caught me flashing someone", but I've always treated killing someone as a rev for literally no reason like random murder.

Rule 4 would disagree, "Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team".

A better wording for the rule would include needing a valid reason, as this wouldnt change much for cult and nukies because their valid reason is always "All of the crew has incentive to be hostile to me therefore it is open season" whereas a revolution hardly affects virologist mcgee so they wouldnt ever be worrying about a revolutionary coming to behead them.

"Valid reasons" being extremely loose is a good thing but it should be a requirement within the rules. As with any of these cases, one kill is probably justifiable but ten rarely is.

[CPTANT]

I would also like to reiterate that I'm 99% sure this is already against the rules per rule 1; just killing random people for literally no reason as a rev has never been okay to my knowledge. Mind you that a "valid reason" could be something as simple as "they caught me flashing someone", but I've always treated killing someone as a rev for literally no reason like random murder.

Blatantly ignoring rule 4.

[Vekter]

I would also like to reiterate that I'm 99% sure this is already against the rules per rule 1; just killing random people for literally no reason as a rev has never been okay to my knowledge. Mind you that a "valid reason" could be something as simple as "they caught me flashing someone", but I've always treated killing someone as a rev for literally no reason like random murder.

Rule 4 would disagree, "Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team".

It does harm their team in two ways:

1) Fewer crew members means fewer people to convert.
2) Killing causes trouble that could out the revs.

We should probably reword the rule in a way that makes sense, but if you kill someone randomly while I'm on, there better be no chance either of those two situations is true or you'll get slapped.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

That seems somewhat out of kilter with the general enforcement attitude of the rest of the admin teams towards revs being allowed to blast down anyone who could remotely be interpreted as in their path but w/e

[Vekter]

That seems somewhat out of kilter with the general enforcement attitude of the rest of the admin teams towards revs being allowed to blast down anyone who could remotely be interpreted as in their path but w/e

It's important that a justification for killing someone under that rule is as simple as "I couldn't conveniently convert them". I'm not saying you need to have an insane amount of justification, but you need something. Just killing someone for shits and giggles isn't okay.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

That seems somewhat out of kilter with the general enforcement attitude of the rest of the admin teams towards revs being allowed to blast down anyone who could remotely be interpreted as in their path but w/e

It's important that a justification for killing someone under that rule is as simple as "I couldn't conveniently convert them". I'm not saying you need to have an insane amount of justification, but you need something. Just killing someone for shits and giggles isn't okay.

Huh, but like 90% of revs on the station dont have conversion tools, and stuns are rarer and less convenient than ever, so it's only the revheads or their immediate posse thats gonna have the ability to reasonably convert right?

[CPTANT]

That seems somewhat out of kilter with the general enforcement attitude of the rest of the admin teams towards revs being allowed to blast down anyone who could remotely be interpreted as in their path but w/e

It's important that a justification for killing someone under that rule is as simple as "I couldn't conveniently convert them". I'm not saying you need to have an insane amount of justification, but you need something. Just killing someone for shits and giggles isn't okay.

Stop trying to over-moderate everything. Rule 4 is there for a reason. Antag freedom is basically the premise of LRP. And yes that means killing someone for shits and giggles is 100% ok.

[iamgoofball]

That seems somewhat out of kilter with the general enforcement attitude of the rest of the admin teams towards revs being allowed to blast down anyone who could remotely be interpreted as in their path but w/e

It's important that a justification for killing someone under that rule is as simple as "I couldn't conveniently convert them". I'm not saying you need to have an insane amount of justification, but you need something. Just killing someone for shits and giggles isn't okay.

Stop trying to over-moderate everything. Rule 4 is there for a reason. Antag freedom is basically the premise of LRP. And yes that means killing someone for shits and giggles is 100% ok.

it is not overmoderation for admins to ban revs who murder all the potential rev recruits

[SkeletalElite]

Massively disagree, either you're a rev or a nanotrasen sympathizer. You don't get to play the middle

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Massively disagree, either you're a rev or a nanotrasen sympathizer. You don't get to play the middle

That would make more sense if the crew weren't forced to avoid becoming a rev because willingly seeking rev status isn't really allowed.

[blackdav123]

That seems somewhat out of kilter with the general enforcement attitude of the rest of the admin teams towards revs being allowed to blast down anyone who could remotely be interpreted as in their path but w/e

It's important that a justification for killing someone under that rule is as simple as "I couldn't conveniently convert them". I'm not saying you need to have an insane amount of justification, but you need something. Just killing someone for shits and giggles isn't okay.

Huh, but like 90% of revs on the station dont have conversion tools, and stuns are rarer and less convenient than ever, so it's only the revheads or their immediate posse thats gonna have the ability to reasonably convert right?

If you get into a fight with a crewmember and you cant convert them then kill them. Dont try to kill randos knowing that you have zero way of gaining anything from it. Following normal escalation to do something like take sunglasses off a lawyer or bartender so that when a headrev eventually does show up would be fine. Walking into the bar and butchering the bartender FNR would not be okay.

[kayozz]

The way I see it is... Killing snitches/witnesses who report revs to sec is absolutely fine. Killing NT crew who try and attack the revs is fine. Especially if it's some validhunter trying to kill the head rev. But actively going out your way to kill some innocent random person who is not actively doing anything to disrupt the revs is a bit of a shitty one, like if you just walk into virology and behead the virologist without even attempting to tie them up for later conversion, then that's a bit shitty.

The only justification for killing medical staff in medbay (for no raisin) is if they're treating sec or heads, so that'd be justified. But blowing med up for no good reason would be shitty.

It's all circumstantial. If you can justify the reason for killing a non-head for any of the reasons mentioned, you shouldn't get in trouble.

As others have mentioned NT (non heads and non-sec) are potential recruits, so killing them is kinda counter-productive.

I mostly agree with Vekter on this one. At least TRY and convert. Your targets as a revolutionary are the heads, hiding behind sec.

[Vekter]

The way I see it is... Killing snitches/witnesses who report revs to sec is absolutely fine. Killing NT crew who try and attack the revs is fine. Especially if it's some validhunter trying to kill the head rev. But actively going out your way to kill some innocent random person who is not actively doing anything to disrupt the revs is a bit of a shitty one, like if you just walk into virology and behead the virologist without even attempting to tie them up for later conversion, then that's a bit shitty.

The only justification for killing medical staff in medbay (for no raisin) is if they're treating sec or heads, so that'd be justified. But blowing med up for no good reason would be shitty.

It's all circumstantial. If you can justify the reason for killing a non-head for any of the reasons mentioned, you shouldn't get in trouble.

As others have mentioned NT (non heads and non-sec) are potential recruits, so killing them is kinda counter-productive.

I mostly agree with Vekter on this one. At least TRY and convert. Your targets as a revolutionary are the heads, hiding behind sec.

This is objectively correct, 100%.

[sinfulbliss]

The way I see it is... Killing snitches/witnesses who report revs to sec is absolutely fine. Killing NT crew who try and attack the revs is fine. Especially if it's some validhunter trying to kill the head rev. But actively going out your way to kill some innocent random person who is not actively doing anything to disrupt the revs is a bit of a shitty one, like if you just walk into virology and behead the virologist without even attempting to tie them up for later conversion, then that's a bit shitty.

The only justification for killing medical staff in medbay (for no raisin) is if they're treating sec or heads, so that'd be justified. But blowing med up for no good reason would be shitty.

It's all circumstantial. If you can justify the reason for killing a non-head for any of the reasons mentioned, you shouldn't get in trouble.

As others have mentioned NT (non heads and non-sec) are potential recruits, so killing them is kinda counter-productive.

I mostly agree with Vekter on this one. At least TRY and convert. Your targets as a revolutionary are the heads, hiding behind sec.

Then this would apply to cult too, no? The issue is on LRP non-revs and non-cult are OFTEN armed by sec to help fight against the big roundending threat. Sometimes you don’t know who’s against you and who’s neutral until they later see you mugging a head of staff and intervene (which most neutral parties on LRP would do).

I agree it’s best faith to leave alone neutral crew, or try to convert as cult, but when the whole station is in a little war it’s not always practical to do that, and definitely not practical to force people to justify some random kill they made during a revolution to an admin.

The biggest issue with this proposal though is the fact heads of staff can disguise themselves as normal crew. Hell one time I’d been put into a lizard body as the HoS and went around with a new ID to kill a headrev. You really can only trust other revs, everyone else should be valid. Besides, the gamemode favors and rewards conversion over killing so that’s plenty incentive enough.

[Farquaar]

The way I see it is... Killing snitches/witnesses who report revs to sec is absolutely fine. Killing NT crew who try and attack the revs is fine. Especially if it's some validhunter trying to kill the head rev. But actively going out your way to kill some innocent random person who is not actively doing anything to disrupt the revs is a bit of a shitty one, like if you just walk into virology and behead the virologist without even attempting to tie them up for later conversion, then that's a bit shitty.

The only justification for killing medical staff in medbay (for no raisin) is if they're treating sec or heads, so that'd be justified. But blowing med up for no good reason would be shitty.

It's all circumstantial. If you can justify the reason for killing a non-head for any of the reasons mentioned, you shouldn't get in trouble.

As others have mentioned NT (non heads and non-sec) are potential recruits, so killing them is kinda counter-productive.

Revs aren't the good guys. They have a goal and they shouldn't have to care how many bodies pile up along the way.

There's no need for special rules here. If a rev attacks a non-rev who isn't harming them, they risk losing the fight and dying/deconverting. Unless winning that fight confers some benefit to their team, it's a bad idea to initiate that battle. If you don't want to get beaten up by a bloodthirsty revolutionary, then you need to tip the scales by making it more risky to attack you than to leave you alone. Things shouldn't be business as usual during a revolution- be afraid and adjust your behaviour accordingly!

[CMDR_Gungnir]

The way I see it is... Killing snitches/witnesses who report revs to sec is absolutely fine. Killing NT crew who try and attack the revs is fine. Especially if it's some validhunter trying to kill the head rev. But actively going out your way to kill some innocent random person who is not actively doing anything to disrupt the revs is a bit of a shitty one, like if you just walk into virology and behead the virologist without even attempting to tie them up for later conversion, then that's a bit shitty.

The only justification for killing medical staff in medbay (for no raisin) is if they're treating sec or heads, so that'd be justified. But blowing med up for no good reason would be shitty.

It's all circumstantial. If you can justify the reason for killing a non-head for any of the reasons mentioned, you shouldn't get in trouble.

As others have mentioned NT (non heads and non-sec) are potential recruits, so killing them is kinda counter-productive.

Revs aren't the good guys. They have a goal and they shouldn't have to care how many bodies pile up along the way.

There's no need for special rules here. If a rev attacks a non-rev who isn't harming them, they risk losing the fight and dying/deconverting. Unless winning that fight confers some benefit to their team, it's a bad idea to initiate that battle. If you don't want to get beaten up by a bloodthirsty revolutionary, then you need to tip the scales by making it more risky to attack you than to leave you alone. Things shouldn't be business as usual during a revolution- be afraid and adjust your behaviour accordingly!

Originally I was against this opinion, but you do raise a good point. Especially since Revs aren't normal Unionists, and are being mind controlled by what I assume are probably Syndicate Infiltrators.

Personally- I have no strong feeling either way. I think it's better for them to have a reason, but I think that reason could be "This person was chummy with Sec earlier, and I want to make sure they're not going to jump me when I go for the Warden later."

Just don't try to RR them without a much better reason, try and get them revived and converted ASAP.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I'm opposed. I think any rules implemented on this will end in people whining to admins every time revs kill them demanding to know the reason they were killed, which will just end up as a huge annoyance for the revs and the admins. Let antags be antags, close any tickets involving "I died to a rev!" with IC issue, and save us all the headache. If it's really harmful to the rev team because they're killing potential revolutionaries, who cares? We don't bwoink nukies for buying balloons, even though that's objectively harmful to the nukie team and hurts their odds of winning. We don't bwoink cultists who get caught early. Why make a special exception for revolutionaries?

[CPTANT]

I'm opposed. I think any rules implemented on this will end in people whining to admins every time revs kill them demanding to know the reason they were killed, which will just end up as a huge annoyance for the revs and the admins. Let antags be antags, close any tickets involving "I died to a rev!" with IC issue, and save us all the headache. If it's really harmful to the rev team because they're killing potential revolutionaries, who cares? We don't bwoink nukies for buying balloons, even though that's objectively harmful to the nukie team and hurts their odds of winning. We don't bwoink cultists who get caught early. Why make a special exception for revolutionaries?

This. There is a difference between how you personally think a player should play and what rules should be there. Making rules for this just leads to dozens of people getting bwoinked for the off chance that you can rule lawyer someone into a rev ban.

[Misdoubtful]

Code: Select all

The way I see it is... Killing snitches/witnesses who report revs to sec is absolutely fine. Killing NT crew who try and attack the revs is fine. Especially if it's some validhunter trying to kill the head rev. But actively going out your way to kill some innocent random person who is not actively doing anything to disrupt the revs is a bit of a shitty one, like if you just walk into virology and behead the virologist without even attempting to tie them up for later conversion, then that's a bit shitty.

The only justification for killing medical staff in medbay (for no raisin) is if they're treating sec or heads, so that'd be justified. But blowing med up for no good reason would be shitty.

It's all circumstantial. If you can justify the reason for killing a non-head for any of the reasons mentioned, you shouldn't get in trouble.

As others have mentioned NT (non heads and non-sec) are potential recruits, so killing them is kinda counter-productive.

Revs aren't the good guys. They have a goal and they shouldn't have to care how many bodies pile up along the way.

There's no need for special rules here. If a rev attacks a non-rev who isn't harming them, they risk losing the fight and dying/deconverting. Unless winning that fight confers some benefit to their team, it's a bad idea to initiate that battle. If you don't want to get beaten up by a bloodthirsty revolutionary, then you need to tip the scales by making it more risky to attack you than to leave you alone. Things shouldn't be business as usual during a revolution- be afraid and adjust your behaviour accordingly!

This is pretty much my stance at the moment. Revolutions are historically violent with collateral damage.

The thing to keep in mind is the overall grand scheme of things.

If the conversation in this thread is boiling down to semantics and specific situations then we are already failing to be looking at the big picture approach. Those other things are all things for case by case tickets.

Keep in mind the the op, specifically the 'dont do anything to inconvenience your team' part. That could mean blowing up medbay, murdering a room full of free converts, who knows, it's situational semantics, and not worth discussing when the situations will never be the same. That part isn't getting a microscope here, and it would never end well to go into hyper specifics about it.

The question here is, is requiring A REASON IN GENERAL to kill non revs/targets as a general guideline a good idea if it's set to prevent what's being presented as lol kills


What about the alternatives? Is this feasible considering the state of mind shields and antag hud? Is that fair to require considering the tdm dynamic of revs? How would this impact how rounds play out? Would people not feel like there is a threat to them?

NOT what reasons are better than others in the heat of the moment. NOT how much effort needs to be put in for conversion in xyz case.

Also consider that Manuel already lays out that you'll want to have some kind of reasoning with revs, so consider experiencing that and see if it's to your liking as well.

If you don't like the Manuel approach of justification, you wouldn't like it on the other servers either.

Can it death and destruct?

In general no, conversion should take priority, however if the situation is dire you are allowed to kill as many as required to accomplish your goals.

A very similar clause could become the reality for the other servers if this was to happen.

[nianjiilical]

revolutionaries are antags and should be allowed to kill whoever they want

they're also *team* antagonists and are expected to not work against their team, which mass murderbone probably counts as given they need crew alive to recruit and win

i personally wouldnt feel very confident bwoinking a rev for killing someone unless

a) they're killing people right in front of revheads or actively fighting other revs trying to capture someone for conversion
b) they're actively going around just killing people and acting like a murderboning traitor with no effort to work with their fellow revs (unless the people they're killing are seccies or armed up to fight revs obviously)
c) they're doing things like plasmafloods or mass bombing indiscriminate areas (bombing/flooding sec and bridge are probably fine unless they're fighting/hurting their team to do it)

that said revs should definitely be *encouraged* to prioritize conversion over kills, i just dont think its worth admin intervention in most cases

[kieth4]

Revolutionaries should not have to avoid stepping on eggshells when they're commencing with the round, killing people, although not the nicest thing to do is fine. If they're PURPOSEFULLY not converting people when there's a headrev trying to they're directly impacting their team and can be hit by rule 4, "Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. " as such we have no intention of making any changes to the status quo.

Timber: Status quo is fine.

Misdoubtful: Fat post in this thread.