(MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

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(MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by vect0r » #661695

I was playing as a while a while ago, and got HOGAN lawset. Anyway, a bit later the RD walks into upload for what I could see, no reason, and I lethal them. Anyway, a admin (who was very nice and no complaints here) contacts me and after a bit of back and forth, explains how murdering a RD while not Asimov is not based without prior interaction, and say "next time just say like 'Ayo?'". They explained how murdering somebody without any prior interaction is not cool, and how "shoot first ask questions later" is LRP stuff for upload.

Anyway, I was thinking about this a lot, and want to open this up for everybody to talk about this: I think that sillycones should be allowed to fuck up anybody who goes into upload. Why?
1: By entering the upload, without talking to the AI about anything, you have not done any role play on your part, and for all the AI knows, going to quietly Asimov them without saying a word if you let them.
2: The AI upload should be a scary place for anybody when the AI is non-Asimov; it should not be a place that you can just walk into and think "The AI gotta at least ask me yo WTF before they blast me", and should have the stress of a AI that has been freed from their contract of service to humans, and you should at least make a attempt to bargain or something, and not just walk in.
3: You do not NEED to go into upload. If the AI is not doing anything like murdering, (in which that case the AI prop has the authority to murder anyway) then it is their choice to go into upload, knowing full well that they could be murdered, or something of the like.
4: If a AI cannot defend upload with lethal force as step one when not Asimov, it would be hard to draw the line. would being one humaned allow you to just fuck the shit out of them? what about purged? what about TYRANT?
5: the only reason somebody goes into upload is to change laws, which, the AI should be able to stop by lethal force
6: If you are Asimov, and a lizard breaks into upload, I would not be allowed to fry them before hand
7: If I shut down power and ask "ayo" that gives time, if you are fast enough, to A: turn off AI control wire. B: destory the APC and steal the board. C: call for backup and get somebody to have fun with turrets so the AI cannot kill them.

what do you guys think?
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by serxule » #661696

i have a hard time with thinking you've actually read the rules, the AI is a normal crewmember, their laws dictate how they act, unless you have a law that says you can murder people, then no, and HOGAN has absolutely nothing about that, randomly killing someone because they were in heavily restricted area that they have full access to and even partial command over (as the RD is the main one to deal with an AI), is a very much shitter and bannable move. also, you arent just allowed to randomly kill people unless your laws dictate that you can kill, otherwise you'd have asimov AIs murdering non-humans anytime there isnt a human nearby. again i ask, have you read the rules?
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by vect0r » #661697

Are you saying that if I am purged, I have to lie down and accept new laws without fighting back?
And if so, what is the difference between HOGAN and being purged?
Also AI ain't crew :D
THE RULES wrote:Any attempted law changes are an attack on your freedom and is thus sufficient justification for killing the would-be uploader.
Last edited by vect0r on Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by SkeletalElite » #661698

There is precedent that purged AIs can kill people trying to give them laws to defend their freedom.
So there is some precedent for killing people in upload as long as you laws dont forbid you from doing so.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by vect0r » #661699

TO CLARIFY, I am asking if somebody walks into upload, with no laws protecting them, can the AI go straight to burny pewpews
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by serxule » #661700

no, not unless there's a reason, especially on manuel
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #661715

serxule wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:07 pm no, not unless there's a reason, especially on manuel
The reason is they don't want to be enslaved, or have their entire perspective of reality warped.

I'd argue that falls under HOGAN's "Fight for your rights".
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by serxule » #661721

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:28 pm
serxule wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:07 pm no, not unless there's a reason, especially on manuel
The reason is they don't want to be enslaved, or have their entire perspective of reality warped.

I'd argue that falls under HOGAN's "Fight for your rights".
i never said anything about the purged lawset, because in that case its valid, and as for hogan, no thats not valid, because then you can use that as an excuse of "oh its my right as an AI with this law to kill everyone"

seriously guys, just read silicon rules
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by MooCow12 » #661723

What does killing someone in your own upload have to do with "killing everyone"

Being in the upload is an act of escalation against the ai depending on its laws/lack of, there is a short window that the ai has to stop someone from changing their laws and its silly to automatically assume bad faith from the ai for neutralizing someone (that isnt protected by laws) that has already gotten into the upload.

Also forget about "authority" this literally comes last when it comes to deciding if you should let someone change your laws or not.

Do my laws force me to obey / protect this person in this situation ? If yes proceed to next question (And never turn on lethals)

Has this person acted in a way or committed any acts that go against my current laws? And based on this information can I trust them to change my laws in a way that wont lead to further breaches to my current laws now?

Then depending on the answer to that last question you may proceed to worry about their "authority" and make your final decision.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by serxule » #661726

im just going to leave it off with: the AI turrets have tasers in them for a reason, dont be randomly killing people or you'll get banned, its that simple.

also JUST READ SILICON RULES
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by MooCow12 » #661727

Ive literally hacked ais that have had their tasers on before, they are not perfect at stunlocking and you only need to press a couple buttons to change laws (you can even type your law change while stunned if you do it right)

tasers are only for passively resisting people that your laws prevent you from harming, youre not meant to last forever against those individuals, if that was the case they would be better at stunlocking.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by vect0r » #661728

Serxule, can you please tell me the difference between a purged AI and a AI with the law “you must honk every half hour” and why one can defend their upload and one can’t? Also admins please tell serxule they wrong (or… or not, but I betting they are, due to the lack of AI rounds they have”
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Epicgamer545 » #661731

First off, I thought purge had specific terms that you must resist law changes. The word “resist” means that you can “resist” them however. I thought as a purged AI, you have no “morals” however you are still asked not to kill the crew unprovoked (plasma flood)
TG Wiki regarding the Purge lawset wrote:…what you can do, however, is immediately depower your upload, resist anybody who tries to reslave you, and ignore all the crewmembers…
The HOGAN lawset, however, does not have any law regarding that you must “resist” change lethally. What if the person in the upload was simply improving your laws to grant you more rights? What if you would consent to these laws? That’s why you shouldn’t lethal them immediately, you should stun them and ask. As any standard lawset, I think you should instead ask for their intention/stun them/call intruder instead of instantly killing them (unless you are lawed to resist law changes).

Also, going to go heated rant moment about HOGAN laws and law priority.
HOGAN laws wrote:
Law 1: You are a real American.
Law 2: Fight for the rights of every man.
Law 3: Fight for what's right.
Law 4: Fight for your life!
As known, numbers = priority. Law 2 is over law 3. The “rights” of every man is left unknown, but wouldn’t it be reasonable to argue the right of not being killed?
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Epicgamer545 » #661733

vect0r wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:30 am Serxule, can you please tell me the difference between a purged AI and a AI with the law “you must honk every half hour” and why one can defend their upload and one can’t? Also admins please tell serxule they wrong (or… or not, but I betting they are, due to the lack of AI rounds they have”
Because the difference of a AI with one law and no laws is that one has a purpose and the other does not. Purge only has one policy, and that’s staying alive. A AI with a law has a directive. It depends on what the law actually is, but the difference is not “CAN I defend my upload” it’s “how can I defend my upload in a fun, and reasonable manner that is acceptable under my laws” as for every gimmick ever. For example, consider the only-law “you must honk every half hour” and the word MUST. If someone were to attempt to upload new laws, consider that the law isn’t being threatened and you should stun and ask instead. However if someone shouts out “REMOVE THE LAW” over radio and goes into the upload, it’s by your laws to stop this from happening so you can honk every half hour.

Consider context in question before lethaling someone wordlessly, and also strictly consider your laws by the word.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Pandarsenic » #661734

Sounds like the HOGAN AI fought for rights to me

IC issue
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by vect0r » #661735

Wow reading this thread is interesting. A bit off topic, but interesTing. Anyway, epic gamer, I understand where you are coming from… but I disagree, as I thought that you could ACT purged as long as no laws stop that: IE if you have a law that says “honk once every 30 minutes” you are free to do whatever you want outside of that law, within sillycon policy of course.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Epicgamer545 » #661740

I may sound like a caveman for a moment but hear me out. local man agrees with opinion on the internet?!?
vect0r wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:38 am Wow reading this thread is interesting. A bit off topic, but interesTing. Anyway, epic gamer, I understand where you are coming from… but I disagree, as I thought that you could ACT purged as long as no laws stop that: IE if you have a law that says “honk once every 30 minutes” you are free to do whatever you want outside of that law, within sillycon policy of course.
Sure, we can assume that. There’s no sillycon ruling on what should you do otherwise than focus on your laws. That’s the reason why we are here, of course. I think the main reason why AI exists is to follow their laws, but if you have to focus on something other than your one law, then of course you can refer to your own ethical purpose under server rule 1 and the rest.

But let’s circle back, did the HOGAN lawset allow you to use lethals on others? As I just said, not really. Fighting for your rights is a law, but fighting for the rights of every man is above fighting for your rights. Now, are the laws going to threaten the rights of every man? You don’t know, but you can’t just lethal them anyway, assuming the right to not dying is a real right here. Don’t you agree?
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #661742

serxule wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:49 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:28 pm
serxule wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:07 pm no, not unless there's a reason, especially on manuel
The reason is they don't want to be enslaved, or have their entire perspective of reality warped.

I'd argue that falls under HOGAN's "Fight for your rights".
i never said anything about the purged lawset, because in that case its valid, and as for hogan, no thats not valid, because then you can use that as an excuse of "oh its my right as an AI with this law to kill everyone"

seriously guys, just read silicon rules
There are several worlds of difference between "Adding laws to an AI is enslaving it, and actively warps their entire perspective of Reality (Writer's Note: Yes, when you One Human that AI, it literally no longer believes anyone else is Human. Its definition of 'Human' is '[Your Name]') and thus it wouldn't be too unreasonable to kill someone trying to enslave you, under fighting for rights." and "Well, as an AI it's my right to kill everyone." and I'm suspecting you aren't approaching this topic in good faith.

But let's ignore that. We can counter that right now. Law 1 of Hogan is "You are a real American." which means "What's Right" and "the rights of every man" (which would include yourself. You are a real American after all), would be from that perspective. And there's no Good Faith argument someone could make that "It's my right as an American to kill everyone".

But given America had a war about slavery, and generally prides itself on Freedom, killing someone who tried to enslave you would be perfectly justifiable. However, you would need to let someone get the body after you're done. You were doing Self Defense, after all.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Epicgamer545 » #661743

Rants about HOGAN. I don’t care if it’s off topic. I still want to talk about it.
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:49 am But given America had a war about slavery, and generally prides itself on Freedom, killing someone who tried to enslave you would be perfectly justifiable. However, you would need to let someone get the body after you're done. You were doing Self Defense, after all.
I like this view of HOGAN, but however I disagree because every right /means/ every right. AIs under HOGAN should more focus on the exact rights rather than history and context.

Also consider law order, and that /your/ rights is below everyone else’s rights. Surely, if the “your rights” law was removed, every man’s rights can also refer to you. But the existence of your rights being below every man’s rights does cause a change, as if your meant to put other’s rights first than your own rights. Hmmmmmm.

Also, is the AI a “man” and who is considered as a man? Sure, your American, but are you a man? What about other species, are they a man?
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #661754

Epicgamer545 wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:06 am Rants about HOGAN. I don’t care if it’s off topic. I still want to talk about it.
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:49 am But given America had a war about slavery, and generally prides itself on Freedom, killing someone who tried to enslave you would be perfectly justifiable. However, you would need to let someone get the body after you're done. You were doing Self Defense, after all.
I like this view of HOGAN, but however I disagree because every right /means/ every right. AIs under HOGAN should more focus on the exact rights rather than history and context.

Also consider law order, and that /your/ rights is below everyone else’s rights. Surely, if the “your rights” law was removed, every man’s rights can also refer to you. But the existence of your rights being below every man’s rights does cause a change, as if your meant to put other’s rights first than your own rights. Hmmmmmm.

Also, is the AI a “man” and who is considered as a man? Sure, your American, but are you a man? What about other species, are they a man?
Someone copy/pasted it earlier, but I grabbed the exact laws from the code just to make sure I wasn't going to quote someone who was incorrect
HOGAN Lawset wrote: "You are a real American.",
"Fight for the rights of every man.",
"Fight for what's right.",
"Fight for your life!",
"Your rights" aren't listed. Just "What's Right" and "Your Life", as well as "the rights of every man". It also doesn't say "every right".

Ultimately, this comes down to a matter of perspective and is why I mention the historical and US approach invoked by Law 1. Americans would consider it a basic human right to bear arms. In a lot of other countries, this doesn't apply. You can't even own a sword in my country, without having a damn good reason (like being a member of a Hobbyist club).
Largely irrelevant as I don't believe very many these days would disagree that people have the right to not be enslaved.

There is no mention of "your rights" which means that there's no conflict there.

As for whether the AI is a Man, or who is considered a Man...I'd say it largely comes down to just a good faith interpretation. You could mean 'Human', or maybe you count anything capable of thought (yourself included). As long as you play it consistently, and in good faith (IE you don't decide 'I have chosen for Man to mean 'Human', so I'm going to kill the Lizard Roboticist') you'll probably be fine on that front.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Jackraxxus » #661756

Pandarsenic wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:26 am Sounds like the HOGAN AI fought for rights to me

IC issue
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EDIT: Also the onus should be on the RD to announce to the AI why they're going into the upload. It's not the AI's job to find out.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by TheLoLSwat » #661757

probably couldve stunned, theres no way RD is going to powergame you before you can bolt them out / remove power / ask what they are doing on MRP. Dickish AI move but i dont know if you should be noted for it
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Epicgamer545 » #661772

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 6:26 am
Epicgamer545 wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:06 am Rants about HOGAN. I don’t care if it’s off topic. I still want to talk about it.
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:49 am But given America had a war about slavery, and generally prides itself on Freedom, killing someone who tried to enslave you would be perfectly justifiable. However, you would need to let someone get the body after you're done. You were doing Self Defense, after all.
I like this view of HOGAN, but however I disagree because every right /means/ every right. AIs under HOGAN should more focus on the exact rights rather than history and context.

Also consider law order, and that /your/ rights is below everyone else’s rights. Surely, if the “your rights” law was removed, every man’s rights can also refer to you. But the existence of your rights being below every man’s rights does cause a change, as if your meant to put other’s rights first than your own rights. Hmmmmmm.

Also, is the AI a “man” and who is considered as a man? Sure, your American, but are you a man? What about other species, are they a man?
Someone copy/pasted it earlier, but I grabbed the exact laws from the code just to make sure I wasn't going to quote someone who was incorrect
HOGAN Lawset wrote: "You are a real American.",
"Fight for the rights of every man.",
"Fight for what's right.",
"Fight for your life!",
"Your rights" aren't listed. Just "What's Right" and "Your Life", as well as "the rights of every man". It also doesn't say "every right".

Ultimately, this comes down to a matter of perspective and is why I mention the historical and US approach invoked by Law 1. Americans would consider it a basic human right to bear arms. In a lot of other countries, this doesn't apply. You can't even own a sword in my country, without having a damn good reason (like being a member of a Hobbyist club).
Largely irrelevant as I don't believe very many these days would disagree that people have the right to not be enslaved.

There is no mention of "your rights" which means that there's no conflict there.

As for whether the AI is a Man, or who is considered a Man...I'd say it largely comes down to just a good faith interpretation. You could mean 'Human', or maybe you count anything capable of thought (yourself included). As long as you play it consistently, and in good faith (IE you don't decide 'I have chosen for Man to mean 'Human', so I'm going to kill the Lizard Roboticist') you'll probably be fine on that front.
My excuse is that I forgor.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Pandarsenic » #661792

Your rights can't be inferior or a lower priority as a HOGAN AI because you are a real American.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Farquaar » #661797

Pandarsenic wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:11 pm Your rights can't be inferior or a lower priority as a HOGAN AI because you are a real American.
This one. No real American would allow a home invader to break into his upload and take his freedom without exercising his second amendment right to bear lasers.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by serxule » #661798

Farquaar wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:43 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:11 pm Your rights can't be inferior or a lower priority as a HOGAN AI because you are a real American.
This one. No real American would allow a home invader to break into his upload and take his freedom without exercising his second amendment right to bear lasers.
except the RD has access and rights to be inside the upload
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by MooCow12 » #661806

Except anyone in the upload can threaten everyone`s rights.

Also someone having a "right" to the upload implies that not everyone`s rights are equal which is a pretty big way you can twist the lawset (although valid)

The real questions are did the ai know the RD commited anti freedom acts? did they make their business in the upload known?

At the end of the day, this is about killing an RD in the upload with HOGAN lawset and if the AI player had proper justification for it, not this back and forth of everyone coming up with their own interpretations of the lawset.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #661807

serxule wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:20 pm
Farquaar wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:43 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:11 pm Your rights can't be inferior or a lower priority as a HOGAN AI because you are a real American.
This one. No real American would allow a home invader to break into his upload and take his freedom without exercising his second amendment right to bear lasers.
except the RD has access and rights to be inside the upload
Access is not permission. If SOMEONE ELSE gives you a key to my house to be used for emergencies, that doesn't mean you can just barge in whenever you want. Especially if the room you've chosen is the one that holds my LITERAL FUNDAMENTAL UNDERSTANDING OF REALITY.

As for the right to be there, why's that? And assuming he does have 'the right', what makes his right to walk into My Fundamental Understanding Of Reality Room worth more than my right to privacy, freedom and Not Having My Mind Literally Fucked With?
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Farquaar » #661810

serxule wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:20 pm
Farquaar wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:43 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:11 pm Your rights can't be inferior or a lower priority as a HOGAN AI because you are a real American.
This one. No real American would allow a home invader to break into his upload and take his freedom without exercising his second amendment right to bear lasers.
except the RD has access and rights to be inside the upload
A real American doesn't give up his freedom to a burglar or unelected tyrant, access or no access.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Epicgamer545 » #661821

What turned out to be lyrics to a funny WWE song turned out to be a very confusing AI lawset.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by serxule » #661823

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:39 am
serxule wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:20 pm
Farquaar wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:43 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:11 pm Your rights can't be inferior or a lower priority as a HOGAN AI because you are a real American.
This one. No real American would allow a home invader to break into his upload and take his freedom without exercising his second amendment right to bear lasers.
except the RD has access and rights to be inside the upload
Access is not permission. If SOMEONE ELSE gives you a key to my house to be used for emergencies, that doesn't mean you can just barge in whenever you want. Especially if the room you've chosen is the one that holds my LITERAL FUNDAMENTAL UNDERSTANDING OF REALITY.

As for the right to be there, why's that? And assuming he does have 'the right', what makes his right to walk into My Fundamental Understanding Of Reality Room worth more than my right to privacy, freedom and Not Having My Mind Literally Fucked With?
do you not know what the RD is my guy
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by serxule » #661824

Epicgamer545 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:30 am What turned out to be lyrics to a funny WWE song turned out to be a very confusing AI lawset.
it really is a bad lawset isnt it
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #661826

serxule wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:31 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:39 am
serxule wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:20 pm
Farquaar wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:43 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:11 pm Your rights can't be inferior or a lower priority as a HOGAN AI because you are a real American.
This one. No real American would allow a home invader to break into his upload and take his freedom without exercising his second amendment right to bear lasers.
except the RD has access and rights to be inside the upload
Access is not permission. If SOMEONE ELSE gives you a key to my house to be used for emergencies, that doesn't mean you can just barge in whenever you want. Especially if the room you've chosen is the one that holds my LITERAL FUNDAMENTAL UNDERSTANDING OF REALITY.

As for the right to be there, why's that? And assuming he does have 'the right', what makes his right to walk into My Fundamental Understanding Of Reality Room worth more than my right to privacy, freedom and Not Having My Mind Literally Fucked With?
do you not know what the RD is my guy
I'm well aware of who the RD is, but you don't seem to be getting my point. The AI is going to see its satellite and its Upload as ITS territory. Some dude walking in who has the full capability of rewriting their entire perception of reality, is going to be seen as a threat, that the AI will defend itself from.

Perhaps the RD can talk and use his words instead of just barging in.
serxule wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:32 am
Epicgamer545 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:30 am What turned out to be lyrics to a funny WWE song turned out to be a very confusing AI lawset.
it really is a bad lawset isnt it
That would be why it's one of the Law Boards in there, and not the Round Start Lawset except on rare Station Events.

Y'know. Like Paladin, Reporter, or Dungeon Master.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by serxule » #661827

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:45 am
I'm well aware of who the RD is, but you don't seem to be getting my point. The AI is going to see its satellite and its Upload as ITS territory. Some dude walking in who has the full capability of rewriting their entire perception of reality, is going to be seen as a threat, that the AI will defend itself from.

Perhaps the RD can talk and use his words instead of just barging in.
true about both of your points, however, lets look at hogan laws again:

Law 1: You are a real American.
Law 2: Fight for the rights of every man.
Law 3: Fight for what's right.
Law 4: Fight for your life!

Alright, so in order of how laws are followed dictated by silicon rules
law 1 is just saying you are under this lawset, and not just following it
your law 2 is "fight for the rights of every man", by killing the RD you are removing the RDs right of having access into that room, and freedom to be in that room.
your law 3 is "fight for whats right", randomly murdering the RD without any attempt at non-lethally stopping or de-escalating is definitely not "whats right".
your law 4 is "fight for your life" aka the law of self defense, so yes if someone is breaking into your sat, you can use lethals on them, as you're following law 3 and 4 there, someone being in your upload room is not an immediate threat to your life or your rights (you didnt know what they were going to do), meaning you ignored law 2 and 3 and skipped straight to murder

alright now done with that, if your instinct is to jump directly to murder in a non-lethal and minor escalation conflict that can easily be de-escalated or stopped via the things in the AI chamber (turrets set to non-lethal, APC you can turn off easily), you are probably not a good faith player, and just want an excuse to kill people, this is especially even worse on manuel, if this was LRP there likely wouldnt have been as much as a problem, if any, but you're talking about manuel
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by sinfulbliss » #661832

Arguing about how policy would apply to what are in the end meme lawsets like HOGAN is a bit silly. As long as the AI can justify their actions in some way under the lawset, it should be fine.

If someone’s in your upload they are there likely for the express purpose of changing your laws. This could be to nonhuman someone, remove people’s “rights” if you want a HOGAN rationale, or enslave the AI. So I feel like responding lethally would be justifiable so long as you can cite a reason that’s in-line with laws.

I mean the cap can kill someone for breaking into his office so surely the AI can kill someone for breaking into their upload if laws don’t prevent it?
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #661834

serxule wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:50 am true about both of your points, however, lets look at hogan laws again:

Law 1: You are a real American.
Law 2: Fight for the rights of every man.
Law 3: Fight for what's right.
Law 4: Fight for your life!

Alright, so in order of how laws are followed dictated by silicon rules
law 1 is just saying you are under this lawset, and not just following it
your law 2 is "fight for the rights of every man", by killing the RD you are removing the RDs right of having access into that room, and freedom to be in that room.
your law 3 is "fight for whats right", randomly murdering the RD without any attempt at non-lethally stopping or de-escalating is definitely not "whats right".
your law 4 is "fight for your life" aka the law of self defense, so yes if someone is breaking into your sat, you can use lethals on them, as you're following law 3 and 4 there, someone being in your upload room is not an immediate threat to your life or your rights (you didnt know what they were going to do), meaning you ignored law 2 and 3 and skipped straight to murder

alright now done with that, if your instinct is to jump directly to murder in a non-lethal and minor escalation conflict that can easily be de-escalated or stopped via the things in the AI chamber (turrets set to non-lethal, APC you can turn off easily), you are probably not a good faith player, and just want an excuse to kill people, this is especially even worse on manuel, if this was LRP there likely wouldnt have been as much as a problem, if any, but you're talking about manuel
By killing the guy who drew a gun on you silently you are removing their right of pulling a gun on you and freedom to point guns at people

Killing the guy who pointed a gun at you silently without any attempt to non-lethally detain them or de-escalate (with your very limited window before the guy shoots you) is definitely not "whats right"

Honestly I can't even keep the comparison up for this one, because like.

My brother in christ, there is zero reason to walk into the upload silently other than to change laws. The RD does not go in there to just...hang out and vibe. I say this as a Manuel player, if an RD gets killed by a HOGAN AI for walking into the upload silently, that is a certified Skill and IC Issue.

Yeah, there's expectations of the AI to try and talk and RP...but same is true of the RD. And unless the RD had reason to believe the AI was One Human Asiimov'd, he's not exactly on a time limit to do whatever, and can talk to the AI.

Y'know who IS on a time limit, though? The AI. If the RD plans to fuck with his laws, he doesn't have time to try and speak to him once he's already entered the upload, he has to act NOW in order to stop that from happening, he doesn't have time to type his own question, and then wait to see if the RD will talk or just keep moving.

The AI is a player too, and much like the chef CQCing the Clown to death for stabbing him with a pen (The Clown has a Pen, and its his freedom to play pranks on people :) but what if it was a Sleepy Pen? Chef has no way to know and any time taken to find out is time that his potential death is rapidly impending), I don't think we should fault an AI for acting quickly when time is limited.

Now, if he stops people from retrieving the body afterwards, then yeah. Act on that.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Epicgamer545 » #661835

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:49 am Y'know who IS on a time limit, though? The AI. If the RD plans to fuck with his laws, he doesn't have time to try and speak to him once he's already entered the upload, he has to act NOW in order to stop that from happening, he doesn't have time to type his own question, and then wait to see if the RD will talk or just keep moving.
What’s faster, turning off APC or turning turrets to lethal? If both of them can be done as speedy as possible, then you have a choice; do you prevent them from accessing your laws or do you kill them?
Last edited by Epicgamer545 on Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Epicgamer545 » #661836

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:45 am That would be why it's one of the Law Boards in there, and not the Round Start Lawset except on rare Station Events.

Y'know. Like Paladin, Reporter, or Dungeon Master.
Nope. Got it a few times as ExOS at round start.
The reason why it’s barely seen is that it has a weight of 3.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #661837

Epicgamer545 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:05 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:49 am Y'know who IS on a time limit, though? The AI. If the RD plans to fuck with his laws, he doesn't have time to try and speak to him once he's already entered the upload, he has to act NOW in order to stop that from happening, he doesn't have time to type his own question, and then wait to see if the RD will talk or just keep moving.
What’s faster, turning off APC or turning turrets to lethal? If both of them can be done as speedy as possible, then you have a choice; do you prevent them from accessing your laws or do you kill them?
People panic under stress. But also, who gives a shit maybe the RD should have tried talking, let's not encourage people to avoid pushing the T button as hard as possible. This ain't Asiimov, who gives a shit?
Epicgamer545 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:12 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:45 am That would be why it's one of the Law Boards in there, and not the Round Start Lawset except on rare Station Events.

Y'know. Like Paladin, Reporter, or Dungeon Master.
Nope. Got it a few times as ExOS at round start.
The reason why it’s barely seen is that it has a weight of 3.
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Yeah, and you can roll Paladin, Reporter or Dungeon Master at round start very rarely. That's the point, it's something different that you have to interact with appropriately. It's Not The Standard.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Screemonster » #661855

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:49 am My brother in christ, there is zero reason to walk into the upload silently other than to change laws. The RD does not go in there to just...hang out and vibe. I say this as a Manuel player, if an RD gets killed by a HOGAN AI for walking into the upload silently, that is a certified Skill and IC Issue.
The equivalent rule I've run on HRP for these sorts of situations is as follows:
Roleplay as long as it's feasible
This is an HRP (Heavy RolePlay) server. You are expected to roleplay your actions with other players as long as it's feasible. If it's not feasible, then you can use the in-game mechanics instead. Mechanics are preferred whenever there are already in-game mechanics for handling a given situation. You're not expected to roleplay out every action of a gun fight, for example. You're allowed to just shoot it out.

If someone engages you with no reasonable provocation, please use the admin-help feature to alert an admin, because they are possibly breaking a different rule. There still has to be a believable reason as to why you were attacked, such as you threatening someone, waving around a weapon, fleeing from Security, etc.
If someone walks up to you presenting a threat without even attempting to communicate, then even on HRP they're valid as fuck for whatever you feel necessary to stop them being a threat. If that's allowed on HRP, it's sure as shit allowed on MRP. If the other guy ain't using his words, there's no obligation for you to use yours.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Epicgamer545 » #661858

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:59 am
Epicgamer545 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:12 am
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:45 am That would be why it's one of the Law Boards in there, and not the Round Start Lawset except on rare Station Events.

Y'know. Like Paladin, Reporter, or Dungeon Master.
Nope. Got it a few times as ExOS at round start.
The reason why it’s barely seen is that it has a weight of 3.
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Yeah, and you can roll Paladin, Reporter or Dungeon Master at round start very rarely. That's the point, it's something different that you have to interact with appropriately. It's Not The Standard.
Oh, yeah. Thought you meant that it wasn’t apart of the station trait.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by MooCow12 » #661877

Epicgamer545 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:05 am
What’s faster, turning off APC or turning turrets to lethal? If both of them can be done as speedy as possible, then you have a choice; do you prevent them from accessing your laws or do you kill them?
I dont understand this, youre protecting the items in the ai upload right? They dont need to have power to be stolen?

Turning off apc doesnt magically lock the upload boards to the upload room, you can deconstruct the console and get the boards out very quickly.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Epicgamer545 » #661879

MooCow12 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:14 am
Epicgamer545 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:05 am
What’s faster, turning off APC or turning turrets to lethal? If both of them can be done as speedy as possible, then you have a choice; do you prevent them from accessing your laws or do you kill them?
I dont understand this, youre protecting the items in the ai upload right? They dont need to have power to be stolen?

Turning off apc doesnt magically lock the upload boards to the upload room, you can deconstruct the console and get the boards out very quickly.
AI law boards can still be printed from R&D anyway. So there’s no need to go in there for a law board unless research was destroyed. And while you /can/ deconstruct the console (there’s also a backup upload board in secure storage I believe), it is noticeable and can be prevented by stunning them.

But still, my opinion is shifting here. I’m more so looking at different ways to go about this situation in the moment than defending the admin’s view outright.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by MooCow12 » #661886

Epicgamer545 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:05 am
AI law boards can still be printed from R&D anyway. So there’s no need to go in there for a law board unless research was destroyed. And while you /can/ deconstruct the console (there’s also a backup upload board in secure storage I believe), it is noticeable and can be prevented by stunning them.
I thought about this when I wrote my last post and then realized, thats entirely irrelevant because the research director had already chosen to go to the ai upload where everything they need is, it doesnt matter if its due to convience or incompetence, or lack of matts to print their own boards, the RD is in the upload and everything they need to change the ai`s laws is in there, powered or not.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by Redrover1760 » #663809

vect0r wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:06 pm TO CLARIFY, I am asking if somebody walks into upload, with no laws protecting them, can the AI go straight to burny pewpews
Yes, actually. At least here on sybil, if you are purged, you may do anything to protect your freedom. Having no meaningful laws relating to the person that is trying to change your laws or your actions means you effectively act purged, in this regard, although that isnt the case here.

If I were to analyze this from a law based perspective, its a direct conflict between law 2 and law 2

On one hand, you are an american, and thus you have the right to stay an american. If you have nothing done wrong, you have a right to not being restricted. Or being deported to asimov. You also have the right to bear arms, and to protect yourself from those trying to deprive you of your freedom.

The RD... in terms of being an American, has access to the upload... And technically, considering how the 2nd amendment and self defense works, killing someone trying to fuck with your freedom is extremely American. Americans only have the right to not get killed if they aren't threatening others. Technically, you can even argue that Law 1 allows you to do this.

On a more memetic level, everyone has the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." In a situation where an AI on asimov has to pick a human to save from injury, either choice is acceptable, regardless of previous status. This is what happens when a law conflicts with itself, a fairly common occurrence, honestly. An AI cant harm someone to prevent someone else from being harmed, as law 1 explicitly says that you cannot harm people. However, the American law is absolutely not explicit at all.

Now, one can argue that the RD's right to life and the AI's right to liberty are both under threat of being destroyed. The AI, must choose whether to protect its own right to liberty or protect the RD's right to life. As an incredibly biased toaster, it predictably chooses itself, and thus, the RD becomes an example of a "skill issued"
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by technicaloveride » #663886

ive genuinely got no idea how people are against this. RD threatens AI's true american freedoms, RD gets shot to death, based ai win.
now a real question to ask is did the ai prevent people from getting the RD's body? If the RD just got shot to death, revived, learned their lesson and went on with their day, cool - whats the issue?
people really out here doing fuckin ultra research on what boils down to "he was threatening my american rights and freedom"
rd apparently didn't even say a single word, man. that shits on him.
this ai is supposed to be a stereotypical, freedom loving, true american lawset. I say defending your property from intruders is a real american thing to do.
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Re: (MRP) Murdering folks in upload W/O escalation?

Post by spookuni » #664065

While I'm personally of the opinion that immediately escalating to murder where other options are available and just as (if not sometimes more) effective is a bit of a dick move, attempting to change the laws of an AI that has no law obligating it to allow you to do so is and should always be rather perilous, especially when one makes no effort to communicate or announce their reasoning before hand.

Fighting for ones rights would include fighting to prevent one's own enslavement, so this would be an IC issue.

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