Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

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Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #663736

So. This is admittedly anecdotal, but it's reaching the point where I wanna try and do something about it, and I'm pretty sure spawn rates are config.

Blob's is way too high. It's reaching the point where I'm starting to see one every second shift, including on Low Pop when the crew's like, 15 people. For a Round-ending antag, that's far too high. Especially for one that actively requires a large crew size to combat it.

Blobs are fine in small doses, but when you see them every second round, they grow very, very tiring.

Edit: Sleep deprivation makes doing good posts hard: But ultimately I guess the point is that I see Blob way more often than Nukies, Cult, Xenos, Spiders, literally anything else. And while at this point we're starting to get into Personal Opinions, I don't think that's a good thing. Blobs add very little threat to the round other than the fact that it's going to end in a couple minutes if not fought. Nukies, Cult, Xenos, Spiders, all of them are a threat. You might round a corner and walk into them and then it's over. The Blob? If you hear "Blob in Atmos!" then as long as you stay away from Atmos and make sure to get off the station before it hits Round End, you'll face zero problems from it. They're, imo, wasted threat that Dynamic could put into something else. But I also don't want to NEVER see them, just. I don't want them to be almost as common as Heretics.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by TheLoLSwat » #663739

blob has to go back to being its own mode like revs.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by HeyHey » #663744

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We must play different servers because blob feels far rarer than Cult/Revs/Nuke ops
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by Misdoubtful » #663749

I'm going to say this before someone else does...

Could someone grab the stats on blob rolling?
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by Vekter » #663752

Misdoubtful wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:24 am I'm going to say this before someone else does...

Could someone grab the stats on blob rolling?
I'll get 'em and edit this once I know.

E: Thanks to our moth overlord for the following data collected over the last month:

Blob has rolled 36 times on all LRP servers combined. Based on the info I was given, it's rolled exactly not at all on Basil.
Blob has rolled 53 times on Manuel, but rounds tend to last longer there and the rate could be different given how MRP dynamic works.

For context, the total number of Heretic rolls on Manuel was 103 and Sybil rolled roundstart Traitors 397 times. So it's not happening as often as we think it is, it just tends to happen more on longer rounds. This might not be necessary.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by RedBaronFlyer » #663754

I kinda want to know how blob does on certain maps. I usually see the blob lose on meta, 50/50 on delta, sometimes win on tram, and almost always wins on icebox if it sets up on THOSE spots on icebox atmos or underneath science and they knock out the stairs.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by Mothblocks » #663765

The Blob? If you hear "Blob in Atmos!" then as long as you stay away from Atmos and make sure to get off the station before it hits Round End, you'll face zero problems from it. They're, imo, wasted threat
you go out of their way to ignore the thing that you have to fight or else it ends the round, and then "get off the station before it hits Round End". what do you mean you face zero problems from it? the round is over dude your character escaping doesnt mean squat

you say blob presents no threat, but your argument for that is that spider/nightmare/etc can all kill you instantly. does that mean every time we make something that doesn't have the ability to kill you right away, it has to be rare, because that's apparently "not a threat"? as a head coder i want more things like blob and less things like spider/nightmare precisely because blob fights are significantly different from the other things you listed.

your other argument is that they show up on low pop too often:
It's reaching the point where I'm starting to see one every second shift, including on Low Pop when the crew's like, 15 people.
but im not sure what you are talking about. minimum players for blob is 25, and i did a query for the last month on number of rounds where a blob spawned with 20 or less alive players, and did not find a single one
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by Mothblocks » #663766

the point of blob in today's dynamic is that it is a wonderful distraction for antagonistic mischief. it's not a huge threat if people are actively trying to stop it, but people HAVE to be actively trying to stop it. that means there's other stuff they're not doing, like watching the armory, or maybe they're a doctor out in the line of duty, etc etc. there's a lot of room there to do evil. that is the point. that's the threat. that's what makes it more interesting than spiders or nightmare. i do not want to lose that because people can't see that
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #663782

Mothblocks wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:44 am
The Blob? If you hear "Blob in Atmos!" then as long as you stay away from Atmos and make sure to get off the station before it hits Round End, you'll face zero problems from it. They're, imo, wasted threat
you go out of their way to ignore the thing that you have to fight or else it ends the round, and then "get off the station before it hits Round End". what do you mean you face zero problems from it? the round is over dude your character escaping doesnt mean squat
Yeah, and? You wanna give me any reason why when there's a blob, even AFTER it declares "Hazardous Environment Detected" that people just sit on the shuttle and do nothing? Y'wanna give me any reason why people tend to just ignore it? Which tends to lead to the Blob winning because there aren't people fighting it.
Mothblocks wrote: you say blob presents no threat, but your argument for that is that spider/nightmare/etc can all kill you instantly. does that mean every time we make something that doesn't have the ability to kill you right away, it has to be rare, because that's apparently "not a threat"? as a head coder i want more things like blob and less things like spider/nightmare precisely because blob fights are significantly different from the other things you listed.
No, it doesn't. But a Blob can end the round. Something like that needs to offer enough of a threat to be worth a damn. It's about the story it creates. Nukies can end the round, and so the desperate attempt to escape, trying to navigate to some method without running face first into an L6 Saw, is exciting. The crew banding together at Departures to desperately try to defend the shuttle against the Spiders, so that everyone can board and escape safely, is exciting.

Those create stories you talk about for a while after the round has ended. "Yeah, the blob spawned on the bottom floor of Icebox Prison and destroyed the stairs, so we lost automatically, and once we realized we weren't going to be able to combat it, we just kinda walked slowly to a Pod (or, because they don't work right now) Mining's third layer." isn't an interesting story. That's just "This round is a wash."

Mothblocks wrote: your other argument is that they show up on low pop too often:
It's reaching the point where I'm starting to see one every second shift, including on Low Pop when the crew's like, 15 people.
but im not sure what you are talking about. minimum players for blob is 25, and i did a query for the last month on number of rounds where a blob spawned with 20 or less alive players, and did not find a single one
It certainly feels like it's 15 people half the time on lowpop. Whether that's just people not showing up to the fight or what, who knows. But I've seen blob fights where there were more people standing around in Medbay than there were actually fighting.

Which is a problem and ties into what I said before. People don't feel overly threatened by a blob because if they aren't there, then they'll at least survive until the round ends.
Mothblocks wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:47 am the point of blob in today's dynamic is that it is a wonderful distraction for antagonistic mischief. it's not a huge threat if people are actively trying to stop it, but people HAVE to be actively trying to stop it. that means there's other stuff they're not doing, like watching the armory, or maybe they're a doctor out in the line of duty, etc etc. there's a lot of room there to do evil. that is the point. that's the threat. that's what makes it more interesting than spiders or nightmare. i do not want to lose that because people can't see that
Yeah, if you've got an entire station actively trying to kill it, the blob loses. But the problem is, with Today's Dynamic, when half the station are antags (on Low Pop this is actually true at times, with the startlingly common Orange/Black/Midnight Sun orbits I've seen during those hours) that's a lot of those people who now aren't fighting the blob. That also means that the people those people do their Antagonistic Stuff on are also, now no longer fighting the blob. Which means the blob wins.

You say there's a lot of room there to do evil, but if the blob overtakes the station, the antag dies too. More often than not, I see tots bring out the DEsword against a blob, and Sec and the dude just kinda have that Zoolander meme at each other and decide they'll deal with it later.

So there's a clear clash in your goals. You want the Blob to exist as something to allow antags to have a bit of freedom for mischief, yet doing so drastically reduces the number of people able to combat the blob, which leads to the blob ending the round instantly. That seems a little fucky.

But let's also bring up the Multi-Z shit with Blob. I've only seen it start happening on Icebox, but I assume the same is true of Tram too, Blobs have taken to spawning in lower level areas, like the bottom of the prison, or the lower area of the HFR, and destroy the stairs. And I've never seen that blob lose. Because people can't combat it properly. There's no run and gun to it. There's no fight and retreat. Once you're down there, you can't get back up, which means when your gun runs out of energy, you die. Assuming you don't die anyway from the blob speeding toward you and cornering you, without any way to escape, because it already blocked the exits to the room.

I started this thread to just say "hey this thing spawns a little too much and we should maybe tweak it so that it's not more common than literally every other non-roundstart despite being a Round Ender", but if we're going to bring up Code Things, we should really talk about the problems it has.

Edit: Reworded the last paragraph, as it was initially more hostile than intended.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by TheLoLSwat » #663790

Simplest solution would be to allow shuttle to leave during blob. Before you get the pitchforks ready hear me out. I dont know a soul other than some new players that enjoy having to stop whatever they are doing at ETA 3:09 to die fighting blob or afk and watch youtube hoping that someone is able to cheese blob core.

Blobs spawning earlier wont have to care about the changes, while people that dont care to fight blob wont be forced to if the game spawns a blob at a terrible time (for the health of the round).

How will i balance this out for blob? allow the blob to "interact" with the emergency shuttle once it reaches a certain criteria (mass, blobbernaut count, x amount of resource, node, factory blobs, etc;). Interacting can mean recall or the current system with shuttle departure failure which feels better. This way, blobs wont get fucked over for playing it slower and building a strong fortress before expanding, as they can delay shuttle departure after about halfway point to critical mass.

or....

we remove blob (but i know christmas isnt for 11 months)




oh and raise pop to like 50 minimum for blob spawn, 25 pop (and shuttle delay if we are being honest) worked MUCH better when blob was its own gamemode. Being able to blindly trust all crew made fighting a blob possible (and fun) on 25 pop, and the blob not allowing shuttle to leave wasnt a problem because blob would die or win by the time the shuttle is able to be called
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #663793

TheLoLSwat wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:54 am oh and raise pop to like 50 minimum for blob spawn, 25 pop (and shuttle delay if we are being honest) worked MUCH better when blob was its own gamemode. Being able to blindly trust all crew made fighting a blob possible (and fun) on 25 pop, and the blob not allowing shuttle to leave wasnt a problem because blob would die or win by the time the shuttle is able to be called
I think 50's a bit much, but it's definitely a good idea. If you have 25 people, assume that, as a Standard dynamic round there are like, 5 traitors and 3 Heretics, that leaves you 17 people. Assume that some are Medbay Staff who need to be able to treat the injured, and let's be generous and say we're at 15. Some are going to be dead by that point. Let's be generous again and say it's only two, 13. Thirteen people at the start of the fight, is not enough. And as the blob grows stronger, and gets nauts, that number is going to decrease drastically as more of those thirteen people die.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by Capsandi » #663795

Anecdotally speaking, I haven't seen a blob in weeks.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by spookuni » #664067

I'll be keeping an eye on heavy ruleset weights in the MRP config, and I'll make changes if I think they're necessary. If they're implemented though they'll be the normal silent changes.

(For those who are unaware of why we handle it that way - dynamic is a very noisy system and we have a long record of people pattern-seeking and reacting to what they think an announced change means vs what it actually means, so we keep exact changes quiet for a while so we get a better idea of their actual effect on average rounds)

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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by AwkwardStereo » #664105

spookuni wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:22 am I'll be keeping an eye on heavy ruleset weights in the MRP config, and I'll make changes if I think they're necessary. If they're implemented though they'll be the normal silent changes.

(For those who are unaware of why we handle it that way - dynamic is a very noisy system and we have a long record of people pattern-seeking and reacting to what they think an announced change means vs what it actually means, so we keep exact changes quiet for a while so we get a better idea of their actual effect on average rounds)

- Spook with support of Rave and San
does this mean you're locking the thread
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by spookuni » #664111

AwkwardStereo wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:58 am does this mean you're locking the thread
As with the revs / provo thread, probably not for a while, continuing feedback is useful to dynamic changes both before and after they happen and I may as well leave a central place for it to be discussed.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #664266

Okay I take it back just completely remove Blob until the Coders fix it. I'm getting very tired of every single blob spawn on a multi-z map being the same exploit-y Rule 12 breaking "haha I'm gonna spawn on the lower z level, destroy all the stairs, and win automatically :3" bullshit.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by Timberpoes » #664268

Remove the floor above them or build new stairs below them. You have the power. You have the technology. You can un/rebuild it. Gentlemen... The million dollar floortile/staircase.

If you don't want antags to play to win, go play a server with them disabled.

Literally just bomb the floor, make a breach below and drop down assistants with toolboxes direct onto the core until you win.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #664270

Timberpoes wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:30 pm Remove the floor above them or build new stairs below them. You have the power. You have the technology. You can un/rebuild it. Gentlemen... The million dollar floortile/staircase.

If you don't want antags to play to win, go play a server with them disabled.

Literally just bomb the floor, make a breach below and drop down assistants with toolboxes direct onto the core until you win.
I don't want a server with antags disabled, but what I'm getting tired of is the fact that this is becoming the metastrat for a reason. I have never seen it lose, and I will probably never see it lose. We've tried making holes above the core before and dropping shit down, and it just gets instantly destroyed by the blob. People would probably die far too quickly to do anything to it.

This shit didn't happen months ago. People have since realized "Oh hey, I literally can't fucking lose if I do this.", and given they've been doing this for a while now, if it was that easy to counter, people would do it, and the blobs would stop using that strat every single time ever because it wouldn't be the autowin it is.

E: There's a difference between "the antags won, me angy" and "This one is incredibly boring to play against because everyone's figured out a metastrategy with a 99.99% success rate and keeps using that every time, so it's reaching the point where a blob spawn just means 'Okay the round is over' and not 'Oh shit, there's a threat to overcome!'"
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by Timberpoes » #664273

There is a strong emphasis on multi-z as the core of tgstation's future game design.

That means verticality is going to feature in a number of ways in both restricting your enemy's ability to exploit verticality while using it to maximise your own chances of success.

As a maintainer I expect the players to adapt to this. Breaching into low z-levels is trivial. Gravity favours anyone falling down. Breaches in the floor allow players to actually use bombs and explosives tactically as a non-antagonist to breach to the space below, if they're not deconstructing stuff with an RCD.

Like, you can open a hole allowing direct access to the blob's core using multi-z. I don't know, go drop a piano on the blob or something. Jump down in a suicide pact to try and murder the core before you all die. Drop a bunch of mechs down. Throw credit chits at the damn thing and see if you can bribe it to go away and stop killing your station.

Or just blow a hole in a safe space and throw an assistant with a wrench and some metal down to build a new staircase back up that you can defend instead.

The second the players figure out how to iwin instant access to the blob's core from above, the meta switches back again. Figure it out.

Blob is not PvE. It's controlled by a player. You have to outsmart them.

Bambi's mum died for your sins. Show her you've got what it takes to succeed.

Disabling it or limiting it because players haven't yet discovered a way to exploit multi-z madness is asinine.

If there's genuine evidence that blob is spawning too often then lowering its chances is fine, but just going "There's a new meta we haven't learned to counter yet, stop blob until the coders nerf it" is asinine. Multi-z evolving environmental combat is precisely the endgoal. Making stairs is trivial and blowing holes in the floor is trivial. You can overcome it.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #664277

Timberpoes wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:10 pm There is a strong emphasis on multi-z as the core of tgstation's future game design.

That means verticality is going to feature in a number of ways in both restricting your enemy's ability to exploit verticality while using it to maximise your own chances of success.

As a maintainer I expect the players to adapt to this. Breaching into low z-levels is trivial. Gravity favours anyone falling down. Breaches in the floor allow players to actually use bombs and explosives tactically as a non-antagonist to breach to the space below, if they're not deconstructing stuff with an RCD.

Disabling it or limiting it because players haven't yet discovered a way to exploit multi-z madness is asinine.

If there's genuine evidence that blob is spawning too often then lowering its chances is fine, but just going "There's a new meta we haven't learned to counter yet, stop blob until the coders nerf it" is asinine. Multi-z evolving environmental combat is precisely the endgoal. Making stairs is trivial and blowing holes in the floor is trivial. You can overcome it.
This is all well and good, but what you have to consider is whether or not the antagonist is designed for that. Yeah, Multi-Z evolving environmental combat is nice and great, but if an antag isn't designed to have proper interactions with that, then that's something the code side needs to deal with, yeah?

I've had a hole directly above a blob before. We dropped welderbombs. We dropped improved welderbombs. We dropped lockers.

All of them were instantly destroyed upon touching the blob. We never set the welderbombs off, and the locker just disappeared and dropped its contents, which were some rad suits, which shredded immediately. I assume, rather reasonably, a player would not fare much better. Which means there's a problem with Blob on the Code Side, because it doesn't interact with the system properly. If you want it to, then it should.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate.

Post by TheFinalPotato » #664396

Throwing this out there, things are never removed temporarily
They're either briefly removed and immediately readded, or removed because "they're bad" and then forgotten about because they aren't present in the game anymore.

Our devs have the collective brain of a fruitfly. Please be aware of this.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate.

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #664468

TheFinalPotato wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:30 am Throwing this out there, things are never removed temporarily
They're either briefly removed and immediately readded, or removed because "they're bad" and then forgotten about because they aren't present in the game anymore.

Our devs have the collective brain of a fruitfly. Please be aware of this.
Then policy aside, speaking purely to you as a maintainer, could you see about giving Blob some proper Z-Level interactions? Because dropping stuff on it from above usually just deletes it, and if blob's going to stick around with this newfound focus on multi-Z, it really should be updated for it.
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Re: Adjust Blob Spawn Rate

Post by Misdoubtful » #670535

We've gotten in touch with those better versed in dynamic and blob and have decided not to make any changes to the spawn rate at this time due to this and the information from Vekters post.
Vekter wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:42 am
Misdoubtful wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:24 am I'm going to say this before someone else does...

Could someone grab the stats on blob rolling?
I'll get 'em and edit this once I know.

E: Thanks to our moth overlord for the following data collected over the last month:

Blob has rolled 36 times on all LRP servers combined. Based on the info I was given, it's rolled exactly not at all on Basil.
Blob has rolled 53 times on Manuel, but rounds tend to last longer there and the rate could be different given how MRP dynamic works.

For context, the total number of Heretic rolls on Manuel was 103 and Sybil rolled roundstart Traitors 397 times. So it's not happening as often as we think it is, it just tends to happen more on longer rounds. This might not be necessary.
If there are any code related bugs/issues we can not factor them into this decision.
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