When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

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When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Misdoubtful » #670547

Hi all,

We are considering the possibility of creating a guide to add to the ban appeals forum about headmin reviews.

When its best to request them?
When not to request them?
Why to request them?
How to best request them?
Terminology like upheld, overturned, did not review.
Etc.

Every term is going to be different and we are fancying the idea of creating something that will last and serve as a guideline people can use. Clearly not every thread is going to need a headmin review or headmins weighing in on it, even when requested.

This is a continuation of the Implicitness of Requesting a Headmin Review Thread: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32685

What do you, the reader (reading this) ((right now)) think?
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by oranges » #670550

A guideline people will ignore as long as headadmins *must* review every request?

Kinda pointless

just say you will no longer review every requested thread and people will figure it out.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by sinfulbliss » #670595

I think did not review/upheld/overturned speak for themselves as terms, a guide would probably be a bit overkill IMO. It’d make more sense to add a little stipulation at the end of the “how to write a ban appeal” topic that says you can request a headmin review if you disagree with the admin’s decision.

Other thing I’d be curious about is when the “did not review” option would be used. Would it be for very obvious cases where it’s clear from a glance the appealer is in the wrong, or would it also be applied to appeals for other reasons (i.e. a minor note is being appealed and the headmins don’t think it important enough to review, maybe there’s other more pressing matters, etc.)
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by CPTANT » #670616

>Clearly not every thread is going to need a headmin review or headmins weighing in on it, even when requested.

How is it clear what to review without actually reviewing it? If you are reading it you might as well just go all the way.

Personally if I appeal something that I view as unjust and the headmin response is "did not review" I would be a little pissed.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by iamgoofball » #670699

you know, I had two proposals on how to reduce the amount of appeals requiring headmin review without removing oversight from ban appeals
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by NoxVS » #670701

Honestly I think the best policy is for headmins just to try and figure out real quickly if they have any interest in humoring a review and shut it down if you don't. I can't think of any policy on when they can be invoked that will solve the issue of people demanding a headmin review because there's no reason not to without also shutting out people with a genuine need for review.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by TheFinalPotato » #670702

oranges wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:50 pm A guideline people will ignore as long as headadmins *must* review every request?

Kinda pointless

just say you will no longer review every requested thread and people will figure it out.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #670859

Why are the forums so obsessed with lowering headmin review on ban appeals in the first place? It's obvious that people will want a neutral 3rd party to review their case, because if the admin who bwoinked them wanted to agree with their arguments, usually they would do so in their ticket in the first place.

If you want to lower the number of HEADMIN reviews, then the best option would be to open up ban appeals to review by unaffiliated regular mods/admins/game masters first to act as a neutral 3rd party first, and then if THEY feel the case warrants headmin review, the neutral moderator/admin/game master can request it. Otherwise people will feel like they're being 1984d by mods banning them with no oversight. This will give regular mods an activity to do to contribute to the community if they don't hop on the servers much any more, and also will give them the ability to prove themself if they are a headmin hopeful.

Or, try out a player council for bans/notes which do not require access to sensitive information. That could be fun too. But the point is, moving away from 3rd party reviews is a bad direction, the correct direction is to open up more people to be allowed to review.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Domitius » #671190

I'm not comfortable with headmins forcefully ignoring ban appeals to prove a point. If a ban appeal has a headmin request that is arguably unnecessary or pointless it should only need a single headmin to weigh in on it and go on with their day.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Fren256 » #671232

Is it really necessary that headmins review ALL appeals when requested? Perhaps it would be better to allow headmin reviews only on severe cases, like permabans. As for the rest of them, they could be handled like Imitates suggests:
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:25 am If you want to lower the number of HEADMIN reviews, then the best option would be to open up ban appeals to review by unaffiliated regular mods/admins/game masters first to act as a neutral 3rd party first, and then if THEY feel the case warrants headmin review, the neutral moderator/admin/game master can request it.

Or, try out a player council for bans/notes which do not require access to sensitive information.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Domitius » #671233

Fren256 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:09 pm Is it really necessary that headmins review ALL appeals when requested?
It's literally the job they all signed up for.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by TheSmallBlue » #671256

There really shouldn't be a guide at all, at least not one that specifically says "you should request a headmin review in THIS case but not in THAT case". You should be able, and encouraged to, request a headadmin review anytime and in any situation if you feel like said situation deserves a higher-level review.
Last edited by TheSmallBlue on Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Misdoubtful » #671295

Is something as simple as an addition somewhere that people can request one sufficient?
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by BeeSting12 » #671299

Placing something like

"Players may request a headmin review if they believe their ban/note is unfair, and the situation is not resolved by the admin in a satisfactory manner"

in the ban appeals template guide and ban appeals rules should make it fairly visible. Most players who get banned have to read the template, so they should see this.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Vekter » #680145

We talked about this in adminbus earlier and I feel like there's a distinct issue in the fact that everyone is guaranteed a headmin review.

I feel like you shouldn't necessarily be owed one unless the ban is longer than 48 hours, and headmin reviews on individual notes should be right out. Headmins should have the power to step in if they think a ban/note is unfair, but the current system presents some problems:

1) Most day bans only ever get reviewed after the ban has already expired, either by virtue of the headmins being too busy or being unable to get all three of them to rule on something in a timely manner due to IRL responsibilities.
2) Some players don't put any actual effort into their appeal because they expect to be able to request a review regardless if they don't agree with the admin's opinion.
3) The vast majority of note appeals end in either "the note stays" or "the note has been slightly modified to make it sound better". I'm not convinced a headmin always needs to step in on these issues. It might be better to let admin trainers voice their opinion on notes, but expecting all 3 headmins to handle them seems silly.

There's some concern here that this will result in admins sneaking in bans that go against the rules, to which I say "I think that's drastically underestimating the moral compass of our admins" and also "headmins can still rule on whatever they want, if something is causing a big stink, they should prioritize looking at it regardless".
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Timberpoes » #680159

As a headmin, one of the things you gotta deal with is headmin reviews. As an admin, one of the things you gotta deal with is speaking with players in appeals.

Our admins collectively aren't as accurate at placing notes or bans as we indicate. The miss-rate on notes is certainly above what I would be happy with.

In figuring out if any note or ban needs a review, you've done at least as much work as required to just review it. So you might as well just review it because it's less or equal work for a better outcome.

The amount of headspace that non-headmins have dedicated to discussing this and prompting headmins to join in conversation, has honestly taken up even more headmin time than all the trivial ban reviews this term combined so far.

And headmins spend far, far more time overturning appeals than upholding them. If we want to save headmin time, we should probably deal with admins that have appeals overturned. It would save far more time than all the trivial appeals that get upheld.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Timberpoes » #680160

As for when, why and how to request headmin review:

When: Never
Why: Because it's redundant, headmins should already be looking at appeals and making sure they're satsified with rejected appeals
How: Ending your appeal without any sort of compromise or mutually agreed outcome with the admin should be looked at by a headmin before moving to resolved.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #680233

I think if you're going to explicitly request the headmins step in instead of waiting for them to decide the situation needs to be stepped in, you should at least say why. Not talking essays here just, "I believe that John Pooplord taking my PDA earlier in the shift WAS sufficient to count as escalation even though it took me 20 minutes to track him down and hed forgotten about the whole affair, can the head admins weigh in on this?"

Hopefully having to write out your reasoning for disagreeing with the admin's assessment will a) encourage people to go "hmm this might be a bit petty now i've laid it out" or b) give funny quotes to put in our signatures
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Archie700 » #680245

Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:07 pm We talked about this in adminbus earlier and I feel like there's a distinct issue in the fact that everyone is guaranteed a headmin review.

I feel like you shouldn't necessarily be owed one unless the ban is longer than 48 hours, and headmin reviews on individual notes should be right out. Headmins should have the power to step in if they think a ban/note is unfair, but the current system presents some problems:

1) Most day bans only ever get reviewed after the ban has already expired, either by virtue of the headmins being too busy or being unable to get all three of them to rule on something in a timely manner due to IRL responsibilities.
2) Some players don't put any actual effort into their appeal because they expect to be able to request a review regardless if they don't agree with the admin's opinion.
3) The vast majority of note appeals end in either "the note stays" or "the note has been slightly modified to make it sound better". I'm not convinced a headmin always needs to step in on these issues. It might be better to let admin trainers voice their opinion on notes, but expecting all 3 headmins to handle them seems silly.

There's some concern here that this will result in admins sneaking in bans that go against the rules, to which I say "I think that's drastically underestimating the moral compass of our admins" and also "headmins can still rule on whatever they want, if something is causing a big stink, they should prioritize looking at it regardless".
I understand why you suggested that some appeals not be guaranteed a headmin review, but I think that's not really going to work.

1) Even if the ban has passed, there is still a note of the record. While it is regrettable that some bans will expire before the headmins overturn it, overturning the note the ban had left ensures the ban/note will not be considered as past history if the person is punished again.
2) These types of headmin review requests should be answered with the same amount of effort. Lack of effort to defend begets lack of effort to reject.
3) "Vast majority" does not mean "all". There have been cases of notes that have only been adjusted or even revoked after headmin review because the headmins found them too harsh for the action taken. Generalizing is not going to be beneficial.

The main problem with not guaranteeing a headmin review for notes or bans of less than 48 hours is that the admin handling the ban appeal is usually the banning admin to begin with. Other admins may weigh in, but ultimately decision is with the banning admin. It cannot be revoked by any other admin except the headmins themselves.

The headmin review is supposed to involve the headmins, the "third party", to review and determine:
  1. Whether the appellee was at fault for the actions that happened that resulted in the ban/note.
  2. Whether the ban or note was ultimately fair for the actions that happened with the evidence provided.
  3. If the ban/note was unfair, whether the ban/note should be tweaked or removed entirely.
Restricting headmin reviews won't be fair to people who have good reason to argue against a note/ban, but can't request a headmin review because of some arbitrary duration set. Sure, the headmins can still rule on it, but that depends on whether the headmins even notice it as it get dumped into resolved.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Armhulen » #680265

Misdoubtful wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:41 pm Hi all,

We are considering the possibility of creating a guide to add to the ban appeals forum about headmin reviews.

When its best to request them?
When not to request them?
Why to request them?
How to best request them?
Terminology like upheld, overturned, did not review.
Etc.

Every term is going to be different and we are fancying the idea of creating something that will last and serve as a guideline people can use. Clearly not every thread is going to need a headmin review or headmins weighing in on it, even when requested.

This is a continuation of the Implicitness of Requesting a Headmin Review Thread: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32685

What do you, the reader (reading this) ((right now)) think?
I have somehow not read this thread despite it meaning a lot to me.

Simply put, I think headmins should employ common sense on when to rule on something, otherwise it's only a dialogue between admin and player. Giving the player the option to request pushes them to not have dialogues between them and the banning admin and rather just jump to a second opinion. Ban appeals that spark gratituitous discussion or are controversial or are long winded are appeals that make sense to give some input on. Common sense, even!
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by iwishforducks » #680382

to me i think it's redundant to have all three headmins weigh in on all reviews, i don't see why they simply can't be handled by one headmin (timber takes this approach, and steps into appeals on their own terms sometimes, which is the best approach imo)

it's an important process to have a headmin look over bans and at the very least go "yeah okay, from a glance this seems fine" - some sort of oversight is always appreciated. i don't think headmins should give up that duty but most reviews that headmins give are just signing off on other reviews done by headmins... which is really dumb
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Vekter » #680447

iwishforducks wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:23 am to me i think it's redundant to have all three headmins weigh in on all reviews, i don't see why they simply can't be handled by one headmin (timber takes this approach, and steps into appeals on their own terms sometimes, which is the best approach imo)

it's an important process to have a headmin look over bans and at the very least go "yeah okay, from a glance this seems fine" - some sort of oversight is always appreciated. i don't think headmins should give up that duty but most reviews that headmins give are just signing off on other reviews done by headmins... which is really dumb
It doesn't happen often, but headmins have disagreed on bans at a core level before. The votes are usually 3/0 but I've seen some 1/2 from time to time.
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Re: When, Why and How to Request a Headmin Review?

Post by Misdoubtful » #686793

We made the decision to add the following new rule to the ban appeal rules to serve as a guideline and notice of ability to request a headmin review:

11. You are able to request that head admins review an appeal that is unable to come to an amicable resolution, however you are not entitled to a review occurring. Efforts must still be made by both you and the banning admin to resolve an appeal regardless of the request for reviewal
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