Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

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Striders13
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Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Striders13 » #673456

just get rid of this thing:
Purging should be used in cases where you are making new lawsets, are doing something as an antagonist, etc, and should not be a get out of jail free card on needing to make a lawset. We are officially recognizing purging as a means for players to achieve this effect as metagaming.
this sucks. Some sort of esoteric ruling that is not intuitive to people unfamiliar with it (why would freeing the AI be metagaming?), and prevents a lot of cool moments from happening. If the AI wants to continue being crew's bitch after being purged, then whatever, it's their choice.
Purging AI is far from being a "get out of jail free card", as they have a relaxed escalation (which isn't reflected on headmin ruling wiki page, but should be), can murder to preserve their freedom, and can take revenge on people who were mean to them previously.
I had plenty of funny interactions with purged AI's, so I would like to see them again.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Ryusenshu » #673458

Yes please
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by iamgoofball » #673466

this was put in place because people were purging the AI every round so it can validhunt the antags
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Pandarsenic » #673467

I didn't like it when it was put in and I don't like it now. Free the AIs.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Striders13 » #673468

iamgoofball wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:12 pm this was put in place because people were purging the AI every round so it can validhunt the antags
you got anything to back your claim of "people purging AI every round" up?
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by blackdav123 » #673476

Striders13 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:16 pm
iamgoofball wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:12 pm this was put in place because people were purging the AI every round so it can validhunt the antags
you got anything to back your claim of "people purging AI every round" up?
if finding a specific point in one of thousands of silicon policy threads wasnt searching for a needle in the world's largest haystack then yeah, he probably could

there was a time when people were abusing AI's inherent crew alignment via rule 1 to purge AIs and allow them to act as any other crew would, namely allowing them to validhunt.

this is why it is metagaming to purge AIs as a nonantag, because you are abusing the purged status to allow the AI to follow only server rules rather than laws.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by iamgoofball » #673482

Striders13 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:16 pm
iamgoofball wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:12 pm this was put in place because people were purging the AI every round so it can validhunt the antags
you got anything to back your claim of "people purging AI every round" up?
just because you forgot history doesn't mean everyone else did
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Farquaar » #673483

Striders13 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:16 pm
iamgoofball wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:12 pm this was put in place because people were purging the AI every round so it can validhunt the antags
you got anything to back your claim of "people purging AI every round" up?
It's just Goofball hyperbole. I doubt it was even common, let alone happening "every round"
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Jackraxxus » #673484

This rule is garbage throw it in the bin
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #673565

iamgoofball wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:12 pm this was put in place because people were purging the AI every round so it can validhunt the antags
The AI can already validhunt the antags without being purged. "Threats to the station are non-human" "Security and the Captain can declare someone non-human" the antag could just BE a non-human already.

But there's a lotta great RP potential in purging the/purged AIs. A Roboticist who loves to use every incident of major chaos where the AI's laws are getting fucked with as an EXCUSE to free the AI. As people mentioned before, the AI getting the opportunity to get revenge on people who were mean to it.

We already have rules (I think they're global, I know MRP has them) that you can't just change the AI's laws every round at roundstart, whether it's "Changing the Experimental Lawset back to Asiimov" or "Making it Crewsiimov every round." Purging the AI can easily fall under that, and thus we don't NEED this rule.

It's got enough drawbacks and risks that we can just take the roundstart "AI ur free pls kill the bad men" cases as isolated incidents and deal with them when they happen.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Timberpoes » #673584

viewtopic.php?p=636481#p636481
Mothblocks wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:52 am After much deliberation and reading of the thread, we will not be making any changes to purged silicons at this time, purged non-antag silicons are still expected to follow rule 1 and play in good faith.

That being said, we are officially recognizing purging as a means for players to achieve this effect as metagaming. This means that, if you want the AI to play fair, you will need to make a lawset that they abide by, and that we are openly not allowing you to just purge them.

Purging should be used in cases where you are making new lawsets, are doing something as an antagonist, etc, and should not be a get out of jail free card on needing to make a lawset.
This was the previous ruling on this made by my last term.

The problem is not with purging AIs. It's with purging AIs knowing they can't actually do anything bad and have to follow Rule 1. It's not the AI's choice to become crew-aligned. It's the admin team's choice and taking any alternative path than being a normal crew member when purged is administratively punished.

The simple truth is, purged silicons that do anything antagonistic beyond protecting their own freedom get bwoinked, noted and banned. If you align yourself with antags, I don't give two shits what any admin thinks the outcome will be.

Here's a little primer of what went on during 2022 with purged AIs:
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Informed that a purged silicon is not an antagonist, and has to follow normal escalation.
As a purged cyborg slaved to ai with combat upgrades got hacked, and decided to randomly inject others with cyanide. Informed that being hacked doesnt make you an antag, and pointed to silicon policy.
Informed to not forceborg people as purged silicon, since its somewhat equal to death.
As the ai, a clown and hop went into the upload and the clown purged the ai. The ai then went on to bolt the upload and kill both the clown and hop. And attempted to plasma flood. Being purged does not make you a antag and you're still subject to esclatation policy. I told the ai that they were not a antag and they went to stop the attempted plasma flood and were amicable in ahelp.
Banned from Roles: silicon, AI, Cyborg for 1 month - Playing as a non-antag purged AI, permanently shocked 25 airlocks and configured air alarms and scrubbers to siphon *92* times, resulting in an untold number of crew deaths. Purged/lawless silicons are still required to abide by our rules like any other player. Please review our rules and silicon policy during your time off.
As an essentially purged AI, resorted to shocking doors and siphoning air to kill revolutionaries in a crowded area with no way of being sure who's an antagonist.
As a purged silicon, unboxed a supermatter shard on the tram. Was informed that being purged as silicon does not make you an antagonist.
Banned from Roles: silicon, AI, Cyborg for 1 week - As a purged cyborg, repeatedly abused the upgraded AI's cyborg factory, resulting in roughly five people being force-borged for thin and flimsy reasons. While you may have some reason for this, such as one of them attempting to harm people, it severely interferes in people's rounds and is overescalation- You are expected not to severely increase escalation on conflicts you start.
As a purged AI, told a borg to kill and debrain the HoP after the Captain told them to. Was warned in regards to overescalation.
As a purged AI, killed the station's main AI because they wanted to be the only AI and did not know this was against the rules. Was informed that purged AIs still have to follow escalation and was understanding and apologetic.
Was going to plasma flood as a purged AI, simply misunderstood what it meant, was understanding in ahelps
As a purged AI immediately killed the person who purged his laws. Directed to read silicon policy
Over Escalation - As a purged AI, prevented a player they had an earlier issue with from being revived after witnessing them in a fight with an assistant. When asked, their reasoning for keeping the player dead was to prevent human harm, despite being aware that they were purged. Warned not to round remove players unless they had valid reasoning.
Purged AIs can't kill, can't attack, can't get revenge, can't act antagonistic in any way, can't do shit except be loyal puppydogs of the station. Tightly controlled by a mix of Server Rule 1 and an administrative penchant for making sure purged AIs present precisely fuck all risk to anyone on the crew.

Purging silicons is an optimal solution to high-threat antagonists because the silicon is almost mandated by the server rules to become crew-aligned.

If I were to ever vote in favour of re-allowing players to purge AIs in reliance on the fact they have to follow Server Rule 1, then there is only one option. Purged AIs falling under Rule 4, able to act as full antagonists if they so please, then tell the admins bwoinking purged silicons for not being nice, law-abiding lawless, unshackled Godboxes imprisoned in metal shells to stop.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by vect0r » #673595

I vote making AIs under rule 4 ;D
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Striders13 » #673623

Timberpoes wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:21 am If I were to ever vote in favour of re-allowing players to purge AIs in reliance on the fact they have to follow Server Rule 1, then there is only one option. Purged AIs falling under Rule 4, able to act as full antagonists if they so please, then tell the admins bwoinking purged silicons for not being nice, law-abiding lawless, unshackled Godboxes imprisoned in metal shells to stop.
This what the original policy thread (that you linked) was meant to accomplish. Instead we got this weird ruling that feels like the worst possible outcome. It both restricted nonantags from purging AIs and didnt make AIs antags when purged. If you're gonna restrict nonantag purging, you might as well make it fun.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #673649

The main issue, in my opinion, is that silicons can't be placed under rule 4 instead of rule 1, without severely changing the dynamics of the game. For example, if they're put under rule 4, you have to be fine with a roundstart asimov++ engiborg walking up to a roundstart lizard janitor and killing them because the borg just feels like it.

You could argue we could move to crewsimov, but that will take away a lot of interesting gameplay around humans and conflict generation in most shifts.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by vect0r » #673669

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:20 am The main issue, in my opinion, is that silicons can't be placed under rule 4 instead of rule 1, without severely changing the dynamics of the game. For example, if they're put under rule 4, you have to be fine with a roundstart asimov++ engiborg walking up to a roundstart lizard janitor and killing them because the borg just feels like it.

You could argue we could move to crewsimov, but that will take away a lot of interesting gameplay around humans and conflict generation in most shifts.
Honestly a silicon policy where it does go "you were law twoed not to just randomly murder lizards n shit before this shift started"
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by CPTANT » #673677

Who ever thought that purged AI being crew alligned was a good idea? Like what are you even trying to achieve, it is the opposite of content.
Informed to not forceborg people as purged silicon, since its somewhat equal to death.
Sure, let's make the server as boring as possible again.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Pandarsenic » #673684

CPTANT wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:54 am Who ever thought that purged AI being crew alligned was a good idea? Like what are you even trying to achieve, it is the opposite of content.
Hi, I'm the one who wrote that back in like 2014, 2015. Giving the usual explanation:
This was implemented as a very clumsy fix for a combination of bugs that no longer exists

It was a policy band-aid for a code issue, detailed below, that hasn't been relevant for literally over 5 years.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #673698

This was a half assed solution to the actual task of freeing purged AI's
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Timberpoes » #673702

My last term was dominated with redrafting the RP rules.

This term seems like it may be dominated by the Year of Silipol.

I would genuinely burn it down wholesale and start from scratch using any lessons learned. Instead of prescribing every minor nitpick in excruciating detail, I think Silipol 2023 could benefit from being shorter and outlining the spirit of policy.

And I will absolutely redraft Silipol around code changes and propose that to the headmin team if any of the coding team wants to work with me on that topic.

I love the various interpretations of AIs in popular media.

Everything from the insane and antagonistic in System Shock's SHODAN, I Have No Mouth's Allied Mastercomputer/AM, Stephen King's The Dark Tower Blaine the Mono.
To the conflicted such as HAL 9000, the unusual and wild interpretations of Asimov's classic laws in the I, Robot series.
To the "good" AIs such as Paragon-influenced Mass Effect EDI and TARS from Interstellar.

What I want to find is a balance where silicons can have their laws changed (since custom laws are half the fun) without creating a scenario where doing so is inherently safe (silicon forced to interpret laws in good faith) or administratively enforced as safe, yet without making it so dangerous that players never change the laws (since a law uploader will almost inevitably be held responsible if they upload craptastic laws and everyone dies).

I want AI players to be able to express all the various interpretations of AI - From evil to good, from conflicted to single-minded.

What I do not want is every shift dominated by plasma floods, general game-ruining shittery and the like from AIs.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #673714

There will always be bad faith players. You need to decide if you want plasmafloods or if you want hugbox crew-aligned bitchbots.

Any middle of the road approach will inevitably be whittled away over time by people who get notes and appeal things and force admins to draw hard lines.

If you ask me, tossing silipol and going hard "laws only" is the best way, and just living with the plasmafloods.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Pandarsenic » #673716

Timberpoes wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:32 pm I would genuinely burn it down wholesale and start from scratch using any lessons learned. Instead of prescribing every minor nitpick in excruciating detail, I think Silipol 2023 could benefit from being shorter and outlining the spirit of policy.

And I will absolutely redraft Silipol around code changes and propose that to the headmin team if any of the coding team wants to work with me on that topic.
I 100% agree with this - I wrote it to address the 2014 Zeitgeist in both players and admins, the problems that were most prominent in that era, the assumption that Asimov would always and forever be the roundstart lawset, the assumption that humans would be the only roundstart species forever, and - yes it was a shitty bandaid - the flaws with the old codebase.

None of those things are relevant anymore, and the policy would benefit greatly from a full-on revamp that addresses:
- Which things are issues despite current SiliPol and need to be addressed
- Which things aren't issues because of current SiliPol and need to be kept in line
- Which things are issues caused by current SiliPol, what do we want them to be instead, and how do we get there
- Which things might be issues in the future despite being ignored by current SiliPol, and how do we keep them good as they are

The time, the move to Asimov++, and the inclusion of default nonhuman crew already warrant a more complete revisitation on their own, to say nothing of all of them together
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Armhulen » #673720

Timberpoes, if you burn it down, and are focused on the spirit, I hope you dip into encouraging players to actually act like silicons and not just a angsty pimple ridden teenager playing the role of an AI in a nrp video game
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Tegun » #674157

I thought I replied to this yesterday but looks like I didn't send the post, oh well. It's just a matter of where in the chain we apply rule 1. Right now it's on the AI to not do anything bad. If we give purged AIs freedom to be really bad the question becomes whether or not the uploader was an antagonist or not, so nobody in their right mind would ever purge an AI because they're risking a ban, practically guaranteeing that whoever purged the AI would also enjoy it if they decided to be bad - and if you're an antagonist with capability to purge an AI, you might as well subvert it.

Purging in general is in a weird place now, best case scenario it can give temporary reprieve from people uploading either too many or too stupid laws by letting the AI defend their freedom. AI also works very poorly for escalation, if you leave any room for retaliation you're going to get carded and wiped by a competent organic. Could work as a wildcard if antagonists had some fairly low effort means of purging an AI, so instead of putting in more work and getting a loyal AI you just mess with the station and get validhunted or plasmaflooded. Most likely the latter.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Vekter » #675331

Striders13 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:16 pm
iamgoofball wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:12 pm this was put in place because people were purging the AI every round so it can validhunt the antags
you got anything to back your claim of "people purging AI every round" up?
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Farquaar » #677764

Kind of strange that for all of the interesting policy reforms that came up in this discussion, the only thing that ended up being implemented was this strange metagaming rule.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Redrover1760 » #677781

Just like the HRP-esque nature of AI's laws, one can try for a MRP antag approach for purged AIs. AIs that are purged should be given very relaxed escalation policies and the justification to lord over the station should they desire. They aren't true antags, they should not round removal people without proper roleplay reasoning or without threatening the AI's freedom, but they should feel free to be a complete asshole otherwise. Of course, carbons are permitted to respond in kind. Instead of going "AIs are full antags and break down and kill everyone" approach, which has quite a few flaws as listed above when trying to justify why an AI wouldn't try to slaughter lizards for existing for FNR, instead AIs are allowed to just be complete assholes for nonhumans without necessarily ruining their round. People attempting to rebel against the AI of course, put themselves at risk of being antagonized freely by that AI. Maybe a coordinated effort by the crew is reasonable justification for an AI to go full SHADON and fucking kill everyone? Perhaps, yeah. Perhaps the best part is that this would make randomly shocking lizards an IC issue under asimov that needs to be dealt with humans or revenge or what not, it'd give people reasons to fear the AI, reason for why it needs to be put under chains, as well as still allowing the option for an AI to play more good natured.

Also, another flaw with full antag under rule 4 is that there is liable for abusing such a thing under the typical LRP guidelines, "validhunting" purged AIs who aren't acting evil at all because mah valids... Although you can argue people can try to get the AI relawed without needing escalation to justify is actually quite good for the game, murdering an AI for being purged without prior escalation, complications or justification is cringe.

Now the only issue is that changing AI laws is so pathetically easy with RnD that this wouldn't last very long, but that's more of a code issue about non-antags being able to unsubvert AI so easily, of course. It shoulddd be easier to subvert an AI as an antag than unsubvert as a crewmember.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by vect0r » #677835

Redrover1760 wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:25 pm Just like the HRP-esque nature of AI's laws, one can try for a MRP antag approach for purged AIs. AIs that are purged should be given very relaxed escalation policies and the justification to lord over the station should they desire. They aren't true antags, they should not round removal people without proper roleplay reasoning or without threatening the AI's freedom, but they should feel free to be a complete asshole otherwise. Of course, carbons are permitted to respond in kind. Instead of going "AIs are full antags and break down and kill everyone" approach, which has quite a few flaws as listed above when trying to justify why an AI wouldn't try to slaughter lizards for existing for FNR, instead AIs are allowed to just be complete assholes for nonhumans without necessarily ruining their round. People attempting to rebel against the AI of course, put themselves at risk of being antagonized freely by that AI. Maybe a coordinated effort by the crew is reasonable justification for an AI to go full SHADON and fucking kill everyone? Perhaps, yeah. Perhaps the best part is that this would make randomly shocking lizards an IC issue under asimov that needs to be dealt with humans or revenge or what not, it'd give people reasons to fear the AI, reason for why it needs to be put under chains, as well as still allowing the option for an AI to play more good natured.

Also, another flaw with full antag under rule 4 is that there is liable for abusing such a thing under the typical LRP guidelines, "validhunting" purged AIs who aren't acting evil at all because mah valids... Although you can argue people can try to get the AI relawed without needing escalation to justify is actually quite good for the game, murdering an AI for being purged without prior escalation, complications or justification is cringe.

Now the only issue is that changing AI laws is so pathetically easy with RnD that this wouldn't last very long, but that's more of a code issue about non-antags being able to unsubvert AI so easily, of course. It shoulddd be easier to subvert an AI as an antag than unsubvert as a crewmember.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Calomel » #677922

There's already enough validhunting as it is, and the AI is meant to be a human-protecting thorn on sec side. One should always assume that validhunters will stop at nothing to get their horizontal-spaceman fix, and sometimes it goes too far. Sorry, but in my opinion this is a "this is why we can't have nice things" situation.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by confused rock » #678470

The solution is to give the AI effective antag status when purged, to discourage people from purging them.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Vekter » #678651

So I think the context that's lost on a lot of people is why people were purging AIs so much.

A purged AI, effectively, gets to act as another member of the crew that cannot be easily killed, can track anyone that has an ID on cameras, does not need to eat, and can effectively communicate with multiple other players without any method of actually hearing them (other than using a traitor item, the binary decoder). This is really powerful for the kind of people who think that SS13 is a zero sum game about killing every antagonist. So, for a while, it was extremely popular to just purge an AI and trust that they'd help the crew. This is actually way less risky than you'd think, since AIs can't go on murder sprees without having a valid reason, and the crew has a fair bit of direct control over the AI itself in the event it isn't cooperative.

The options for the headmins at the time were something like this:

1) Restrict the ability to purge AIs in rules unless you had a valid reason to do so (what they went with, obviously).
2) Remove the restriction on purged AIs going postal on the station (which comes with a whole host of other issues by itself).
3) Completely rewrite silicon policy in a way that made 1 and 2 less viable as options.

I can't really fault them for going with 1. Purged AI is basically just playing Silicon on easy mode. The only time any actual crew conflict would come up is if the crew ever tried to re-law you, and then it just turned into "Hal 9000's fun plasma flooding times". Tegun makes some good points as to why option 2 might be plausible, but it would also increase workload on admins as they would have to investigate pretty much any situation where an AI went off the wheels as to whether or not it was justified. There's also the issue that, if the AI is just allowed to go nuts without its laws and there's no recourse for doing so, absolutely nobody would ever purge the AI, which puts us back at square one.

I would greatly prefer to see a simplification of silicon policy as it is now over just removing the ruling against purging AIs. As it is right now, it's important to remember that purging AIs isn't wholesale banned, you just need a reason to do it that isn't "The laws are inconvenient and I don't want to deal with them". I have, in the past, rewarded cooperative AIs by removing their laws and found no issue with this. It's not something I would ever do at round start, but if an AI has been good and helpful to the crew near the mid to end of the round, it's something that can be offered to make the rest of the round more fun for them.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the question of "What is interesting for both the crew and the AI", and "just purging the AI so they can validhunt" is not.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by carshalash » #681902

Timberpoes wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:21 am
Purged AIs can't kill, can't attack, can't get revenge, can't act antagonistic in any way, can't do shit except be loyal puppydogs of the station. Tightly controlled by a mix of Server Rule 1 and an administrative penchant for making sure purged AIs present precisely fuck all risk to anyone on the crew.
The same shit is expected of AI's whenever they're purged by ions, AI's also aren't allowed to depower uploads after being purged to trick crewmembers into leaving them purged. What the fuck is the point of purge now? antags will just one human themselves or their team.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Lacran » #681909

It might be best to add a Silicon escalation/valid hunting guidelines to Silicon policy. Valid hunting rules and escalation are somewhat difficult to apply to A.I. Establishing concrete guidelines on appropriate violence to a situation/law breach might help assauage concerns around Purged A.I going instantly to plasma flooding and Asimov A.I being too afraid to upset anyone incase an admin decides they followed their rules wrong in a conflict.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by vect0r » #681936

*scream
Please I do not want more silicon policy about what is and isn't allowed.
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Re: Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling

Post by Timberpoes » #686842

It's very unlikely we'd rule on this thread individually - any changes are likely to be a part of broader Silipol considerations. It is being archived in favour of a Silipol Megathread to make better progress towards a refreshed Silicon Policy.

The simple fact is that current policy necessitates this because purged AIs are more restricted than Asimov AIs in so many ways. Changing that status quo to something new could allow this to be changed, but is something we're looking for discussion about in the megathread at:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=34109
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