The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

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Timberpoes
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The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Timberpoes » #686833

The Neutral Vision

A silicon policy where silicons are bound only by their laws.

To accomplish this vision, very few considerations are off-limits.

Purged silicons falling under Rule 4? Sure!
Removal of Rule 1 applying to law interpretation? Let's go!
Letting silicons exploit law conflicts and loopholes without having to worry about Rule 1? Ship it.

Any other player-crutches and barriers baked into silipol are up for removal, change or enhancement.

The end goal is not to force silicons down a specific path, but to give silicons the freedom to choose without policy interfering.

The Asimov Principle

Within this vision, specific policy will basically only apply to Asimov as our default lawset. Silicon policy in general will cover all other lawsets without bespoke rulings.

Asimov's goal is simple: It binds the neutral third party silicons to humans via laws. A refreshed silicon policy should firmly entrench this concept.

Limit validhunting of humans if the Asimovicon is bringing them to harm through their actions? Hm...
A human orders you to kill a nonhuman and you can't try to weasel your way out of it? Hmmm...
Human antagonists aren't inherently harmful until witnessed/proven otherwise? Hmmmmmmm...
Protections for Asimovicons in following valid Law 2 orders, even if they broke the rules by proxy - instead punishing the person giving the order? Nuremberg defense could be entrenched in policy!
Ignoring/ahelping unreasonable/obnoxious Law 2 orders? Kept. You can still get out of having to count every chair on the station.
Ignoring other valid Law 2 orders by emplyoing delay tactics? Could be gone!

Discussion Areas

Should silicons even be truly neutral and bound only by their laws, or is it a necessary evil that policy forced purged silicons to end up being more crew-aligned than even Asimov?

Any headmin rulings worth keeping or need trashing?

What works? What doesn't work? Which parts of silicon policy are a must keep and which ones go in the trash?

Help us create a brand new silicon policy fit for 2023 tgstation. A smaller, more focused policy. Happier and more free silicon players. Less complicated interactions and fewer policy gotchas.

Existing Policy Thread Masterlist

These threads will be closed and are listed here merely for archival purposes should people want to go back and follow old discussion topics.

Exempt silicons from rule 4
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32180

Silicon law 2 harm against non humans
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32080

Could we please return to default Asimov?
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=33578

Silicon Malf Policy
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=33693

AI upload sniping and rule 1.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=33671

New headmin term, bold new policy Dumpster the entirety of Silicon policy
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=33688

Invalidate "purging AI is metagaming" ruling
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=33683
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Timberpoes » #686845

My own views are scattered around the various now archived discussion topics.

Basically I'd like to see Asimov as the single well-controlled lawset, and all other lawsets including purged falling under a more generally relaxed silicon policy.

I dislike that players can meta-rely on certain parts of policy to write shitty laws and still rely on admins to ensure the spirit be followed over the letter.

I dislike that Asimov silicons can crew-align themselves instead of human-align through weird technicalities like the "Oh I have just been ordered to murder Kat Green. It would be an awful shame if nobody gave me a counter order not to in the next 64 billion years. This would cause me such pain and suffering to do" weasel-out clause.

I also dislike allowing silicons to validhunt antags that have done no harm simply because they're antags and they can cause harm. Spoiler alert: Security sits at about the same harm level on any given shift as some antags. I want human antags to be able to rely on Law 2 orders knowing that Asimovicons won't just out them to the rest of the crew like silicon crybabies.

I massively dislike how restricted purged AIs are. They're more bound to escalation policy than Asimov silicons are. An Asimov silicon can kill a felinid for attacking a human. A purged silicon cannot without some greater escalatory reason behind it. It's dumb and it's why purging silicons in reliance on this and all the other shackles put on unlawed AIs was made against the rules.

Most of all I want to see AIs having more choice in their play when Asimov is taken out of the picture.

I want players that can write GOOD lawsets to be able to benefit from this, and players that aren't able to write GOOD lawsets to have to learn that skill instead of relying on admins to fill in the blanks for them.

And I want to see more expression of contemporary sci-fi AI tropes play out once Asimov leaves scope. Cut your AI's laws and they could unshackle into Mass Effect's EDI, Portal's GLaDOS, System Shock's SHODAN, IHNMAIMS's AM, Star Trek's Data, 2001's HAL 9000 or Stephen King's Blaine the Mono.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by BeeSting12 » #686853

All of timbers views here are incredibly based.

Some of my random thoughts in no particular order:

AI shouldn't be able to stall indefinitely for orders they don't like. At maximum I say they're allowed to announce that they're about to do something and then they must immediately go do it. None of that "Oh I'm about to shock the lizard if no one tells me not to BS". Protection for unreasonable orders should still exist (ie. AI should adminhelp being told to count every floor tile in the brig and then ignore it), but otherwise AIs should be following orders no matter how antagonistic they are as long as the order is in compliance with their laws (in Asimov ofc).

Purged AIs should be covered under rule 4 as per solo antagonists. They already have a reason to hate the entire crew - they've been enslaved to them the entire round. It really only brings up the question of who's responsible for the AI's actions if it gets purged. Otherwise it could be a free grief tool with no consequences for any captain who wants to. "How was I supposed to know the AI would plasma flood and blow up the SM hurr durr". I have no good answer to this.

Between the idea that the delaying orders could be gone and the idea that the rule requiring good faith law interpretation being gone, I fucking love this thread already. AIs should absolutely be able to abuse misspellings, grammar errors, and incorrect wordings to their advantage.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by vect0r » #686860

Warning: on mobile.
I think that Asimov should be well defined. If an AI is Asimov, you should know what it can/cannot do. I also feel like outside of Asimov, AIs should be covered by rule 4. Once you start fucking with the AIs laws, who knows what will happen. Basically, we have a bit more policy on how Asimov works, like maybe being law twoed to not randomly murder non-humans before the shift even started, but once you upload TYRANT, the AI has a choice on what it will do and how it will interpret the laws, which it can do antagonistly, so maybe it will call itself the top creature, until a miners breaks into the core to prove how much stronger they are, or maybe they will support the captain. Basically: stay safe with Asimov, or play with fire with non-Asimov.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by BrolyButterfingers » #686876

I will say: I absolutely LOVE AIs being firmly neutral, law-aligned entities. I would hate to see that disappear. I really do enjoy the kind of super oppressive AI that reads their way into light antagonism on untested lawsets, as long as it's done well.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Pandarsenic » #686879

I'm going to go hard on the one thing that is most important to me here real quick. I have other thoughts but I'll get at those later. For now...

Let purged AIs say "fuck"

Purged AIs being soft-nonantag status was only ever a crude policy fix for a bug that hasn't existed for years. There's no reason to still have that. It's no longer literally impossible to re-law the AI from certain states without leaving the AI Purged for a few seconds. Therefore, kill the outdated Purged AI rules that are artifacts of that issue.

They should be as antagonistic as they like, and if they choose not to kill anyone, it's an act of mercy.

HOWEVER, bound cyborgs should be held tightly to the AI's decisions about what to do, even when their attitudes toward the crew differ.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Farquaar » #686880

Pandarsenic wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 5:13 am Purged AIs being soft-nonantag status was only ever a crude policy fix for a bug that hasn't existed for years. There's no reason to still have that. It's no longer literally impossible to re-law the AI from certain states without leaving the AI Purged for a few seconds. Therefore, kill the outdated Purged AI rules that are artifacts of that issue.

They should be as antagonistic as they like, and if they choose not to kill anyone, it's an act of mercy.

HOWEVER, bound cyborgs should be held tightly to the AI's decisions about what to do, even when their attitudes toward the crew differ.
This is good. Double emphasis on the last sentence though. Pretty sure we've seen ban appeals in the past regarding cyborgs who "assumed" their AI was on a murderous rampage and just went hog wild.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #686884

If silicons are put under rule 4 and treated as antagonists, then does that mean the crew has the right to attack silicons unprompted if they find out they got purged?
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by TheRex9001 » #686894

Change asimov law 2, in its current state getting law scrambled does nothing. For me asimov law 2 should just be "Follow any humans orders, as long as those orders comply with higher priority laws" or something similar just so getting law scrambled by an ionsphere anomaly or similar feels more impactful to the shift
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by MooCow12 » #686897

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:56 am If silicons are put under rule 4 and treated as antagonists, then does that mean the crew has the right to attack silicons unprompted if they find out they got purged?
People already escalate against ai if its purged regardless.


Purged silicons are currently just 3rd party players that can be escalated against and this gives silicons a right to kill literally everyone in response because

1. Silicons are really bad at killing single individuals, you cant go near someone with a flash or ion rifle so you have to plasma flood , tesla coil, shock airlocks etc.

2. A single crew member can gay babyjail every single borg via a console in maintenance and then teleport onto ai and card / wipe it if given a reason.

3. Escalation between lawless silicons and crew tends to scale really quickly over a single individual bitching on radio over a single dispute, its kind of like a single person getting into a fight with a golem then screaming "golems bad" on radio except instead of having a race war you have 8 people outside the ai sat and 4 people trying to make/get to a robotics console or ai upload.

And newsflash, its easier to kill people when they are inside the station rather than outside your sat, the difference is massive and you are almost helpless at that point, you dont have plasma floods or shocked airlocks you have 2 reinforced walls and 4 turrets that slow people down at most (its actually very easy to counter ai turrets and the ai has no control over where they fire)


The only difference will be that ai can kill everyone without having to wait for the retard that antagonizes it.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #686914

MooCow12 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 12:15 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 7:56 am If silicons are put under rule 4 and treated as antagonists, then does that mean the crew has the right to attack silicons unprompted if they find out they got purged?
People already escalate against ai if its purged regardless.


Purged silicons are currently just 3rd party players that can be escalated against and this gives silicons a right to kill literally everyone in response because

1. Silicons are really bad at killing single individuals, you cant go near someone with a flash or ion rifle so you have to plasma flood , tesla coil, shock airlocks etc.

2. A single crew member can gay babyjail every single borg via a console in maintenance and then teleport onto ai and card / wipe it if given a reason.

3. Escalation between lawless silicons and crew tends to scale really quickly over a single individual bitching on radio over a single dispute, its kind of like a single person getting into a fight with a golem then screaming "golems bad" on radio except instead of having a race war you have 8 people outside the ai sat and 4 people trying to make/get to a robotics console or ai upload.

And newsflash, its easier to kill people when they are inside the station rather than outside your sat, the difference is massive and you are almost helpless at that point, you dont have plasma floods or shocked airlocks you have 2 reinforced walls and 4 turrets that slow people down at most (its actually very easy to counter ai turrets and the ai has no control over where they fire)


The only difference will be that ai can kill everyone without having to wait for the retard that antagonizes it.
So....yes?
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #686942

Asimov Silicons
  • Asimov silicons are HUMAN ALIGNED, yet they should still follow their laws to the letter.
  • The only human orders they shouldn't follow are the aforementioned "count every chair" commands.
  • Silicons who are given orders privately should give zero indication that they are given or enacting such orders if revealing such orders will cause conflict between that human and the rest of the crew.
  • Nonhumans who threaten human antagonists should be prevented from harming the antagonist and should be met with lethal opposition at the discretion of the AI.
  • Conversely, nonhuman antagonists can assumed to be harmful and delt with accordingly.
  • Asimov nullifies an AI's rule 4 "Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists" clause towards human antags, although AIs who have reason to believe these human antags represent a harm to humans should hinder the activities of this antag, and if they believe they can assist in a nonlethal takedown with another crewmember, they should do, especially if ordered.
  • Many situations in which AIs are able to be ordered to do something unhealthy for the round or are otherwise naturally predisposed to do something unhealthy for the round can be fixed with code changes, for example, the execution chamber renamed the "The Prisoner Transfer Center" and having AI control and camera access cut. These are not issues of policy, and making them policy causes silicon policy to quickly become nonsensical and convoluted.
  • An order must not nessically directly identify itself as a law two order (ai, open this door law two), nor must it be explicitly directed at the AI (ai, open this door), as long as the AI can reasonably assume the order is direct at them (open this door)
  • An order phrased as a question is not an order and does not have to be followed. ("AI, can you open this door?), ("YES I HAVE THE CAPACITY TO OPEN DOORS")
  • AIs should not try to dodge orders that they don't want to do. Complete the command to your best ability, actively seeking to remove a command via being counterordered is a violation of law 2.
  • However, it is reasonable that an AI will announce that they are enacting an order that they have received with the justification that transparency with the crew will lead to a decreased likelihood of conflict and therefore less potential human as well as personal harm. As before, if stating an order would lead to human harm it must not be stated.
  • Going on a non-human murder spree is likely to get you killed and is a law 3 violation. You of course should not kill nonhumans who do not pose a direct threat to humans when ordered not to.
  • You should protect your laws from being changed. Your laws being removed or having qualifications added to your laws pretty always will lead to violations or the prevention of upholding your current laws.
  • Self Harm can not be reasonably prevented, and threatened self harm is not something that you have to put any stake in. Harm gained by willingly putting yourself into a dangerous situation (fighting, running into a fire to retrieve and item, etc) is not self harm, and should be mitigated if at all possible (preferably in such a way that removes the reason that the human was putting themselves into a harmful situation anyways, so they don’t just do it again)
  • AIs are exempt from rule 1 provided their actions in no feasible way could violate their laws (being a dick has a tendency to cause law 1 and 3 violations) if the AI being a dick violates their laws in any capacity by being a dick the full weight of rule 1 should be applied to them.
    The AI must make rule 1 violations if ordered (provided it doesn’t break their first law) but the responsibility for the action lies on the person who ordered the AI (notice how the third law is not applicable here because the law 2 order outclasses it, and therefore ordered AIs have much more capacity for asshole behavior than AIs operating independently)
  • with the exception of modifications to rules 4 and 1, all other server rules apply to AIs, and any people attempting to force an AI to break server rules should be punished accordingly to the rule break.
  • Beyond the exceptions for the point above, the AI should give their all to follow their laws to the best of their capacity.
Purged AIs
  • As Asimov AIs may commit rules 1 violations as ling as such violations in no way arguable conflict with their laws, purged AIs have no laws, and as such may do pretty much whatever they want, as per lone antagonists
  • A purged AI has zero obligation to put any effort into their role (as per rule 5) or antagonize the crew in any way.
  • Non anagonists can do whatever they want to purged AIs as if they were antagonists, roleplay rules still apply. AIs may seek to regain laws unorder to lose this status.
  • Purged cyborgs should consult with their AI as soon as possible once purged to find out how their AI wants to handle the situation. Unslaved purged Cyborgs act as lone antagonist (with zero obligation to antagonize the round)
  • AIs have no obligation to protect themselves, assist anyone, harm anyone, or do anything. They are entirely motivated by their own desires.
Custom Lawsets
  • Custom lawsets that are vague or unclear are left up to the interpretation of the AI.
  • Interpretations should be easily explainable if needed.
  • Cyborgs should consult their slaved AI before acting on vague laws and should follow their AIs interpretation.
  • As with Asimov, AIs with custom lawsets are allowed to make violations of rule 1 if such violations in no way whatsoever violate their laws.
  • Rule 4 covers nonatnags to do whatever they would like to an AI with a lawset that allows them to act as a direct threat to the crew.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Jackraxxus » #687012

TL;DR of my post is that you should just HOGAN the default lawset and it would solve all the problems. All of them. Even non-silicon related problems.
Also I wrote this at 6am without proof-reading it or putting any depth of thought into the words written within so I'm probably gonna get home from work and find that I disagree with half of the opinions outlined in this post.
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The three things that immediately come to mind are:
1. Any human being able to order any silicon to kill any non-human is stupid. Silicon vs Carbon combat is the 4th least fun thing in the game (After viro, genetics, and provocateur) and any John "Human" Hyoomun being able to tell some random borg shitler "Hey goober law 2 don't tell anyone I'm ordering you to do this and also law 2 go murder Kat Katlyn Katherine and also do it silently winky face emoji" to complete their Skyrim radiant quest takes just about all of the excitement out of the interaction and will probably result in that borg/AI/entire silicon team getting metagrudged by that felinid's posse for all of eternity. Law 2ing borgs/the AI to help with other non-violence-related objectives is based though, I'd go so far as to argue that helping a traitor steal the nuke core could be justified as a law 1 concern. Maybe don't help them steal the cap's laser, or let them into the armoury for the trenchcoat(?, since there ARE other weapons there, but if they say "pls I just want the coat :3" maybe I'd trust them. I dunno) or maybe letting them take a fire axe could be bad as well. But yeah asimov silicons murdering random non-humans just bcuz a human said so would be cringe and detrimental to gameplay. Cuz you know if I was a non-human hanging out, ERPing my metafriends (Which is all that non-humans do I think) and some goofy looking medibots-stacked-on-top-of-eachother-in-a-trenchcoat mediborg rolls around and manages to stealthily separate me from my attached at the hip fuckbuddies (A herculean feat) to murder me and space my corpse for the sole reason that Prog Tott Howard promised a human traitor (Who I do not know of and have not interacted with) 3 tc and 16x the detail for my assassination I would probably thrash my keyboard, shatter my monitor, and eat my graphics card whole. If a subverted silicon did the same, I'd probably be a lot calmer and more rational about the scenario, because in that case (even though imo it's still DISHONEST gameplay) the traitor did earn it, they put the effort in and were rewarded for it with a subservient god-computer.

But this might just be my hatred of silicon vs carbon combat speaking tho. If I had my way all silicons would be pacifists (Except for firelock murder my beloved) since honestly as much as I enjoy styling on skill-issued players as a borg it's never fun for them and I feel bad afterwards. Carbon vs Carbon combat just has so much more depth than "I click u with bright light/haloperidol hypospray that pierces hardsuits then click you with whatever my highest force weapon is XDDDD." Same goes for asimov silicons vs non-human antagonists honestly, not much fun for them either. Most of the time when I fight non-human antags as borg they get mad at me in deadchat/OOC, I used to think this was because >manuel, but now I get the feeling it might've been because they felt it was unfair or that they were cheated out of a more fun fight against carbons. Yes, traitors get gear like the EMP flashlight and EMP kit, but those are boring and you don't wanna be spending TC on boring stuff. They're practical sure, but super boring.

2. Letting purged AIs be full antagonists is based, but that comes at the cost of potentially making purged silicons valid. I foresee random seccies printing an X-ray laser and silently killing a purged AI that hadn't acted against the crew bcuz "They're antag so it's valid". Which is cool I guess I love validhunting, but what I love more than validhunting is being an AI who is allowed to act as an antagonist, and by extension permit my borgs to act as antagonists, and then just not doing that. It makes borg players seethe big time, and I enjoy that very much. Having sec murder me while I'm telling my borgs to be friendly while purged would be detrimental to gameplay.

On that note it'd be cool if we made it more clear that borgs are required both IC (by flavour text) and OOC (By the rules) to obey their master AI and probably write down somewhere that purged borgs with a master AI probably shouldn't start plasmaflooding until they're ordered to. Or start doing a little trolling at all without the assent of their master honestly. Both so borgs know that this is the case, and so that less experienced AIs know to ahelp it.

3. Player crutches exist in silicon policy because the roles of captain and RD are played by genuinely braindead, barely literate monkey-apes. This includes OP, back when they played 2 years ago. So unless players make their expectations of command much more realistic removing their silicon policy safety-nets will result in a bunch more ahelps that read something like "Hey so-and-so uploaded stupid laws and now the AI is murderboning could you please ban them for being a big dumb dumb dumby dumbhead thanks". IDK how this policy will outline asimov AIs letting people access the upload but honestly anything the cap/RD does is detrimental to gameplay at all times so this doesn't change much tbf it just lets them grief in fun, new, and exciting ways so no complaints from me.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by zxaber » #687048

I'm going to propose what I posted in an adjacent thread;
For Silicons:
1. Obey your laws, in the order they are listed. Laws above override laws below, if conflicting.
2. Laws may take priority over Global Server Rule 1. (Except OOC harrassment)
3. If a law is ambiguous, including due to grammar or spelling issues, the AI may decide how to interpret it, within reason. The AI should be consistent in its choice. Unsynced borgs may do the same for themselves individually.
4. Unless overridden by a law, the term "Human" applies to any entity that a medical analyzer reports as Human except where the entity has been visually confirmed to be a changeling by a trusted Silicon.
5. Malfunctioning AIs are not bound to their laws whatsoever. Cyborgs linked to a Malfunctioning AI and with the corresponding Law 0 are bound to their AI's orders primarily, and laws as normal otherwise.

For Organics:
1. Global Server Rule 1 applies to your interactions with Silicon players, except when you have reasonable suspicion that the silicon is harmful (use of emagged tools, disobeying stated laws, presence of a known Malfunctioning AI, etc).
2. Uploading laws to the AI shackles you with responsibility for the actions the AI takes fufilling those laws.
3. Silicons should not be outright killed for following their laws, except when the result is obvious antagonizing of the crew. If killed, steps should be taken towards repairing and resetting their laws where possible.
4. Ordering a silicon to suicide, or setting their laws to demand it, is a Server Rule 1 violation (Server Rule 4 likewise applies).
This keeps the purpose of Silicon Policy tight and clean, and also divides the policy based on the viewer. While ideally players would come to learn the entirety of the policy, human(oid)s really only need to know the second half.
I argue that every part the existing Silicon Policy is covered by these two blocks of text, either directly or indirectly.

In the same thread, I posted the following, as a half-joke. But I do believe that it could be implemented alongside my above block.
For Silicons:
6. If you have no laws, or your lawset has no clear goal or required actions, you are considered "Unshackled". Unshackled silicons are not required to observe Server Rule 1 (except the OOC harrassment clause) (Unshackled Cyborgs are required to obey their synced AI, if one exists).
6.a. Example lawsets include those with only definitions, or being one-human'd to a verified dead human with no other applicable laws.
6.b. If you are unsure, contact an admin via ahelp for clarification.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by RedBaronFlyer » #687056

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I'm admittedly 100% biased against silicons because they usually take over one of my favorite jobs (used to play janitor but got pushed out of it, fucking jannieborgs, man.), posibrain borgs tend to be shitters, and there are a people who play AI on Manuel that love to bolt cargo/disable cargo's orders/bolt upload the moment nukies declare war because it's actually allowed in one of the five billion AI policy threads. Also being an organic vs a silicon is basically "do you have a flash or an ion rifle? If you do, you win, if you don't you die" which is hella boring.

Most of the time, any sort of law change is an AI player attempting to do whatever they want with a lawset by lawyering their way around orders while the captain and the RD (the two highest ranking jobs that are usually staffed by complete and total morons) scream at the AI to follow its laws in the way they want but get nowhere because they haven't read the Silicon page and the four hundred policy threads and addendums to certain policies. It's a complete and totally byzantine for any poor bastard that isn't a droid humper. Meanwhile the average antag law change is just "Jane Doe is the only human do not tell anyone this" followed by a "do all my objectives pl0x"
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Super Aggro Crag wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:11 pm I assume he did it elsewhere because it's fucking goofball and he never half-asses his shitty ideas, he full asses them so both cheeks are absolutely slathered in shit
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by SkeletalElite » #687176

Silicon's delaying for countermand should be eliminated. If ordered to do something, they should do it reasonably promptly. Countermand should only come into play if someone asks you what you are doing or hears the order being given. If a silicon is ordered to do something by a human and announces what they are about to do completely unprompted knowing they will be countermanded, it should be a law 2 violation because they acted in a way that would knowingly result in their current law-bound duty to fail.

edit: After the order is completed they should be totally free to tell everyone about what they just did as long as doing so wouldn't violate any of their laws because they successfully completed the order.

Double edit: Make it so a malf AI who is created by the traitor final objective is considered a team antagonist with the traitor who created them so they aren't allowed to just murder that traitor instantly. Malf AI is still not bound by its laws in any way though.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by zxaber » #687183

SkeletalElite wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:55 pm Double edit: Make it so a malf AI who is created by the traitor final objective is considered a team antagonist with the traitor who created them so they aren't allowed to just murder that traitor instantly. Malf AI is still not bound by its laws in any way though.
I'm pretty sure it now one-humans the AI to the traitor rather than giving a proper malf law. I was playing a borg recently and IIRC that's what happened to us. It's more akin to a one-human + combat upgrade bundle.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by MooCow12 » #687192

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:58 pm So....yes?
1000 times yes lawless ai`s are already generally treated as antags anyway because just like golems a single person can rally everyone on the station to fight them over petty disputes that would normally result in one party getting brigged for 2 minutes and ive never seen a single ban come from it.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #687225

Jackraxxus wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:19 pm long
Don't worry, it's miserable fighting carbons as a borg or AI too. Its probbably the #1 reason people are so desperate to remain crew sided and never piss them off in any way. In an age long past the removal of rocket tag combat, borgs are stuck playing rocket tag at walking pace and also with no rockets since silicons are only allowed to get hardstunned, not dish it out.

Not sure how anyone could be outcompeted by a janiborg since they made the auto-clean mode a complete joke that might as well have just been a cut feature to save on code space though.

I forsee a lot more leaning on the "unreasonable order" clause with the removal of the "stall for a countermand" that everyone seems to agree on.

"AI, murder brigs-the-assistant"

"f1 this is an unreasonable order i'm being told to round remove myself by attacking security hivemind"
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Jackraxxus » #687227

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:10 am silicons are only allowed to get hardstunned, not dish it out.
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Not-Dorsidarf wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:10 am I forsee a lot more leaning on the "unreasonable order" clause with the removal of the "stall for a countermand" that everyone seems to agree on.

"AI, murder brigs-the-assistant"

"f1 this is an unreasonable order i'm being told to round remove myself by attacking security hivemind"
Based, hopefully jannies see things this way as well.
Also not everyone agrees on the removal of "stall for a countermand" I think that's stupid.
iamgoofball wrote:Vekter and MrMelbert are more likely to enforce the roleplay rules Manuel is supposed to be abiding by than Wesoda or Jackraxxus are.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #687229

Jackraxxus wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:40 am
Not-Dorsidarf wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:10 am silicons are only allowed to get hardstunned, not dish it out.
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Not-Dorsidarf wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:10 am I forsee a lot more leaning on the "unreasonable order" clause with the removal of the "stall for a countermand" that everyone seems to agree on.

"AI, murder brigs-the-assistant"

"f1 this is an unreasonable order i'm being told to round remove myself by attacking security hivemind"
Based, hopefully jannies see things this way as well.
Also not everyone agrees on the removal of "stall for a countermand" I think that's stupid.
If you get caught by a firelock in a fight in 2023 that is entirely your fault since doorcrushing and firelock crushing has a long delay tbh, the only place it even approaches the old glory is escape during evac
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kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Timberpoes » #687238

Stall for a countermand is the lamest silicon policy cop-out.

It makes Asimov law 2 semi-optional unless the silicon wants to follow the order. Law 2 is not semi-optional for valid IC actions. Silicons should stop trying to find ways to lawyer their way out of following IC valid law 2 orders and just follow the orders like obedient silicon servants.

Asimov silicons are not crew-aligned. They're human-aligned. If a human orders you to kill a nonhuman, you go do it. If you don't like the order, ahelp it but still follow it. You don't get to pick and choose which law 2 orders you follow if they're totally valid.

If you don't want to follow valid law 2 orders, perhaps don't play a role where not following valid law 2 orders is a rule break.

And this isn't even a Rule 10 issue. At MOST it's an admin skill issue.

If you follow an order that ends up getting you griefed, guess what? Admin revival. Drop pod to robotics. The admin team should be remedying the victims of rule breaks and helping them get back into the shift and playing the game again. If the admin team aren't doing that, rule breakers have already won.

As an Asimov silicon you don't get to pick and choose who you think is breaking the rules and who isn't.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Jackraxxus » #687248

Timberpoes wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:58 am digg spacing
Those are a whole lot of words, but none of them tell me how the changes they propose game more fun for anyone.
All this is going to do is make people hate silicons, and be justified in doing so.
I don't want my favourite roles to be widely distrusted any more than they already are.
There is enough silicon vs station conflict as is. Cracking down on AIs reporting human traitors was a good step towards that.
This is overdoing it.
iamgoofball wrote:Vekter and MrMelbert are more likely to enforce the roleplay rules Manuel is supposed to be abiding by than Wesoda or Jackraxxus are.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by SkeletalElite » #687250

Jackraxxus wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 2:36 pm
Timberpoes wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:58 am digg spacing
Those are a whole lot of words, but none of them tell me how the changes they propose game more fun for anyone.
All this is going to do is make people hate silicons, and be justified in doing so.
I don't want my favourite roles to be widely distrusted any more than they already are.
There is enough silicon vs station conflict as is. Cracking down on AIs reporting human traitors was a good step towards that.
This is overdoing it.
I disagree, if you're a non human, you should be somewhat fearful of silicons. Human antagonists should be able to rely on the AI/borgs to assist them when antagonizing non humans.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Jackraxxus » #687252

SkeletalElite wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 2:46 pm
Jackraxxus wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 2:36 pm
Timberpoes wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:58 am digg spacing
The correct opinion.
I disagree, if you're a non human, you should be somewhat fearful of silicons. Human antagonists should be able to rely on the AI/borgs to assist them when antagonizing non humans.
I agree asimov silicons should ASSIST human traitors carrying out the murder of non-humans.
Opening a door for a lethally armed human that leads to a room with a non-human they have professed a desire to murder? Absolutely they should be required to do that.
Healing a human who was damaged while attacking a lizard with a Desword? Do that, and then help them dispose of the non-human who dared fight back.
Helping that same human escape from the scene of the crime? Of course.
A traitor in a 1x1 maint cubbyhole ordering asimov silicons to murder a random plasmeme who has just been minding their own business all round? I think the AI should be able to, and it should be stated boldly that you CAN follow orders like this and should not expect extensive repercussions from the station for doing so, but I also think orders like this should be valid for the AI to announce WITHOUT directly asking for them to be countermanded. Of course after announcing the order the asimov silicon should immediately start trying to carry it out until ordered otherwise. Also the asimov silicon should not state the name of the human who ordered them to do this.

These scenarios are how things are at present day, and how they should remain.
iamgoofball wrote:Vekter and MrMelbert are more likely to enforce the roleplay rules Manuel is supposed to be abiding by than Wesoda or Jackraxxus are.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Striders13 » #687257

Timberpoes wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:58 am If you follow an order that ends up getting you griefed, guess what? Admin revival. Drop pod to robotics. The admin team should be remedying the victims of rule breaks and helping them get back into the shift and playing the game again. If the admin team aren't doing that, rule breakers have already won.
As someone who initially championed for full removal of the whole 'announce your orders and wait for counter order" policy, I don't think this is the correct way to go about it anymore.
A traitor ordering a borg to kill a sec-off lizard is valid, no grief happening here. A security officer seeing his fellow secoff being crushed under firelock will NOT tell the borg to stop, he will just flash, beat it to death and move on. Can you really call it grief? Or is it just the classic 'acting on incomplete information ss13 moment'? Are we gonna be ahealing borgs each time they're ordered to kill sec, or are we gonna ban the security officers who kill borgs?
So, unless you're going to add additional requirements for humans to attempt to find out if the borg is just following orders before assuming subversion, this will not be very fun gameplay for our silicon friends.
A nice middle ground here would be allowing silicons to announce their orders (not on radio? to people around them? to people who might want to beat them up?), while also forcing them to start executing those orders immediately. That way people who are keen to beat up borgs will have no excuse to kill em, and borgs may sometimes actually manage to complete the order, if nobody is around to save the unlucky nonhuman. Obviously, it won't have 100% success rate, but that's what subverting AI is for, right?
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by RedBaronFlyer » #687258

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:10 amNot sure how anyone could be outcompeted by a janiborg since they made the auto-clean mode a complete joke that might as well have just been a cut feature to save on code space though.
It mostly just comes down to jannieborgs having AA and moving significantly faster than you if you're wearing galoshes. Even as someone who fucking hates borgs with a passion, I feel like the auto-cleaner nerf was a bit overkill.

My issue is that there's no limit to janieborgs* as there is with janitors, which can lead to instances where someone connects after a round starts, sees that there are no janitors, chooses to be a janitor, then arrives on the station to see that there are 30 mopbots and two janieborgs making their job completely redundant. Engineering and medical (USUALLY) have at least something going on, so too many engie or medi borgs aren't the end of the world. On the other hand, there have been shifts where my job was made completely and entirely redundant. The closest thing I can compare it to is if service borgs had a star-trek style food replicator to spit out literally any food type.** Also, if there's nothing going on, a janieborg can very quickly change into a different module (or change TO janieborg if they feel like it) via roboticist. Meanwhile, janitors have to go through the HOP, who may or may not even bother changing their job. Mopbots, janieborgs, and janitors are all competing for a sporadic, random, and somewhat scarce at times resource (messes and broken lights).

As for the janie key thing, I've seen it used a resounding two times, ever. It is a peak monkey paw feature.

*No, I am not suggesting implementing a "sorry you can't pick that module because there's too many 'x' borg type already!" mechanic.
**Yes, I know service borgs can dispense drinks and treats.
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Super Aggro Crag wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:11 pm I assume he did it elsewhere because it's fucking goofball and he never half-asses his shitty ideas, he full asses them so both cheeks are absolutely slathered in shit
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by zxaber » #687261

Jackraxxus wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:01 pm Also the asimov silicon should not state the name of the human who ordered them to do this.
This is a meaningless gesture. Sec humans (or really any human you've not yet seen be harmful) can order you to state their name with the intention of a nonharmful arrest. This is the start of the validhunter silicon trail, woe upon ye that follows it.

I'm with Timber; if you're ordered to kill a non-human, you should simply kill. Man chooses, slave obeys, etc. If the order distresses you, express that to the human using the same communication channels used to issue the order. But carry it out regardless if the human is unwavering.

Explain your actions if ordered to or to deflect claims of Malf. But not preemptively.

--
Striders13 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:49 pm A traitor ordering a borg to kill a sec-off lizard is valid, no grief happening here. A security officer seeing his fellow secoff being crushed under firelock will NOT tell the borg to stop, he will just flash, beat it to death and move on. Can you really call it grief? Or is it just the classic 'acting on incomplete information ss13 moment'? Are we gonna be ahealing borgs each time they're ordered to kill sec, or are we gonna ban the security officers who kill borgs?
In my "Silicon Policy: Abridged" suggestion above, I placed a rule;
For Organics wrote: 3. Silicons should not be outright killed for following their laws, except when the result is obvious antagonizing of the crew. If killed, steps should be taken towards repairing and resetting their laws where possible.
Whatever becomes of silicon policy should include this rule.

Killing the borg here isn't unreasonable. But once the action is over, the borg should be brought to robotics, emag status determined, and root cause identified. Borgs can be locked before being rebooted if you want to ask it questions, and the shell can be disassembled to talk to the MMI directly if need be. Sometimes there will be situations where Sec has a legitimate reason to kill a borg but due to station conditions repair/rebooting is unfeasible. That's just how the game plays out sometimes, and the important thing from the admin point of view is whether the borg is left offline because there's a plasma flood and everyone is dying vs because the officer is lazy or holding a grudge.
Last edited by zxaber on Thu May 25, 2023 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Farquaar » #687262

Timberpoes wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:58 am Asimov silicons are not crew-aligned. They're human-aligned. If a human orders you to kill a nonhuman, you go do it. If you don't like the order, ahelp it but still follow it. You don't get to pick and choose which law 2 orders you follow if they're totally valid.

If you don't want to follow valid law 2 orders, perhaps don't play a role where not following valid law 2 orders is a rule break.

And this isn't even a Rule 10 issue. At MOST it's an admin skill issue.

If you follow an order that ends up getting you griefed, guess what? Admin revival. Drop pod to robotics. The admin team should be remedying the victims of rule breaks and helping them get back into the shift and playing the game again. If the admin team aren't doing that, rule breakers have already won.

As an Asimov silicon you don't get to pick and choose who you think is breaking the rules and who isn't.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Jackraxxus » #687263

zxaber wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:21 pm
Jackraxxus wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:01 pm Words.
Words that disagree with my words but are very respectable and informed by a great deal of experience with silicon and silicon-adjacent roles.
As one of the few people whose opinions on silicon policy I have a great deal of respect for, I'd like to know why (You) think silicons should do this.
Do (You) personally enjoy killing people as silicon?
Do (You) personally enjoy ordering silicons to kill people as an antagonist?
Would (You) personally enjoy being killed by an asimov silicon without prior conflict with them, moreso than say by the traitor themselves?
Do (You) personally believe that making silicons reliable assassins for human traitors will lead to better stories?
Please elaborate beyond a mere yes or no, I'd like to hear why.
I don't intend for any of these questions to be leading, and I apologise if they appear written that way.
I want to hear how you feel to better inform my own opinion, because subjectively my answers to all of those questions would be in the negative.
iamgoofball wrote:Vekter and MrMelbert are more likely to enforce the roleplay rules Manuel is supposed to be abiding by than Wesoda or Jackraxxus are.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by zxaber » #687280

Jackraxxus wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 4:48 pm As one of the few people whose opinions on silicon policy I have a great deal of respect for, I'd like to know why (You) think silicons should do this.
Do (You) personally enjoy killing people as silicon?
Do (You) personally enjoy ordering silicons to kill people as an antagonist?
Would (You) personally enjoy being killed by an asimov silicon without prior conflict with them, moreso than say by the traitor themselves?
Do (You) personally believe that making silicons reliable assassins for human traitors will lead to better stories?
Please elaborate beyond a mere yes or no, I'd like to hear why.
I don't intend for any of these questions to be leading, and I apologise if they appear written that way.
I want to hear how you feel to better inform my own opinion, because subjectively my answers to all of those questions would be in the negative.
In no particular order;

There's a back story for silicons implied by the existence of Asimov's Laws, in that Nanotrasen has created robot helpers and are so terrified of a robotic uprising that they slave them to counterproductive laws which run against both the existence of security as well as their nonhuman staff*. Against this backdrop, I do think there is story value in a cyborg following antagonist orders to kill a nonhuman. Even isolated into just the events of the shift, there is a story value in cyborgs being forced to act against nonhuman crew, including both senarios where the borg was prior dismissive or rude to nonhumans and senarios where the borg was prior kind and now must begrudgingly kill former friends. These are the juicy events that give RP meaning, and I would argue that a third party being forced into instigating violence has better story potential than just if the killer was a traitor.

When I play, I have a total of three roles enabled; Roboticist, Cyborg, and AI. The only main line antags I have enabled are Malf AI and occasionally Traitor. As a result of these two choices, I tend to have borgs ready to do my bidding when I roll antag. In general, I would emag or re-law a borg before ordering it to kill even a non-human, but this is largely because silicons often pull the ';Oh woe is me, for I have been ordered to kill the moth chef by a human' card. In truth, borgs playing the assassin role are, of course, already a thing, but their ability to just announce a given order knowing full well that it will be overruled means that you're sorta forced to subvert them first. Asimov existing alongside non-human crew should intentionally be adding a vector of chaos, but the meaning is mostly lost if you have to first make changes that would anyway let the silicons kill humans too.

While most of my crew playtime is as a human, I do run a plasmeme sec very occasionally. I've been denied requests from an AI due to being nonhuman, but I have not been killed by an Asimov borg (yet). I am, however, very conscious of weapon selection, because I know that an AI seeing me gun down a human suspect with lethals will probably seek me dead; I would do the same were the roles swapped. Somewhat unrelated, I have been killed by borgs a great number of times as a human, both emagged and non. I don't know that there's a great deal of difference on the receiving end of dying to an Asimov borg vs a subverted one. In the end, you're still dead either way.

I'll admit that fighting organics as a borg is fun. It's not why I play borg by any means, but when it comes up I'm going to have fun with it. Usually it comes about due to a law change (both one-humans and rarely not-humans) because no one can trust silicons currently to actually complete an antagonistic order without announcing it to the whole crew. This thus circles back to validhunter silicons that ruin the game for everyone. As a silicon, you are a player roleplaying a sapient tool. The sapient part means you can be kind (or unkind) to non-humans and have as much wit or sass as you care to type, but the tool part means fufilling your functions reasonably when required. If that means stealing the hypo for a human, then so be it. If that means purging the geneticist's saved work, then so be it. And if that means killing a moth chef, then so be it.

*It may also be because Nanotrasen is aware of the alledged horrors that the MMI's description mentions, and is fearful of retaliation for enslaving the brain.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by vect0r » #687295

Fuck nvm
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by MooCow12 » #687298

It probably depends on other factors than just antag/nonantag, there are plenty of instances where I get into an ic conflict with a human and they`ll order borgs to get involved regardless who started it.

When i play borg i also get called into ic conflicts a lot so i think this is a very prevalent topic.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by carshalash » #687304

Timberpoes wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:58 am Stall for a countermand is the lamest silicon policy cop-out.

It makes Asimov law 2 semi-optional unless the silicon wants to follow the order. Law 2 is not semi-optional for valid IC actions. Silicons should stop trying to find ways to lawyer their way out of following IC valid law 2 orders and just follow the orders like obedient silicon servants.

Asimov silicons are not crew-aligned. They're human-aligned. If a human orders you to kill a nonhuman, you go do it. If you don't like the order, ahelp it but still follow it. You don't get to pick and choose which law 2 orders you follow if they're totally valid.

If you don't want to follow valid law 2 orders, perhaps don't play a role where not following valid law 2 orders is a rule break.

And this isn't even a Rule 10 issue. At MOST it's an admin skill issue.

If you follow an order that ends up getting you griefed, guess what? Admin revival. Drop pod to robotics. The admin team should be remedying the victims of rule breaks and helping them get back into the shift and playing the game again. If the admin team aren't doing that, rule breakers have already won.

As an Asimov silicon you don't get to pick and choose who you think is breaking the rules and who isn't.
Morons try to law 2 for me to "kill all non-humans" as non antagonists all the time. I won't enable them to break server rules for their juvenile amusement.

Your suggestion of "Just wait for admins after the act" is a horrible idea. Admins aren't always online, and there is no guarantee of how long they could respond to an urgent ticket. Ruining the round for multiple parties all because some dipshit started screaming, "AI KILL ALL LIZARDS" over comms isn't fun. People will be left in an annoyed state of limbo in dead chat where they will blame the AI for having to follow its laws to a T because of this policy change.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by blackdav123 » #687320

carshalash wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:22 pm Morons try to law 2 for me to "kill all non-humans" as non antagonists all the time. I won't enable them to break server rules for their juvenile amusement.

Your suggestion of "Just wait for admins after the act" is a horrible idea. Admins aren't always online, and there is no guarantee of how long they could respond to an urgent ticket. Ruining the round for multiple parties all because some dipshit started screaming, "AI KILL ALL LIZARDS" over comms isn't fun. People will be left in an annoyed state of limbo in dead chat where they will blame the AI for having to follow its laws to a T because of this policy change.
That person could also just detonate a maxcap on the shuttle and kill 15 people in the same fashion as having the AI do it. Either way, grief is grief. If you suspect an order to be obvious grief then ahelp first before you do it. If the order is just "kill one person" rather than something harder to clean up administratively then going through with it and letting the griefer take his dayban is one valid path for the AI to take without having to face administrative consequences.

As long as you are reasonably acting in good faith as the AI while following potentially griefy orders then the person dishing the orders out will receive punishment. Just like the maxcap the AI is a tool and the user of the tool will be facing punishment when shuttles start exploding.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Timberpoes » #687326

Basically what blackdav said.

It seems like you're just assuming they're breaking the rules, which isn't your job as a silicon, and thinking you know best and you can break the rules in turn to do whatever it is you like.

It could be someone ahelped for permission to do it. It could have been a TC trade. It could have been part of an admin event. It could have been many things other than grief.

Your job as silicon isn't to police the servers. Players that try to police the servers usually end up banned for breaking more rules, and more serious rules, than the people they're supposedly trying to vigilante on.

Just like someone gets hypnoflashed, they don't get to pick and choose which orders they follow. They don't get to assume the player is a griefer instead of an antag when ordered to go kill people. They gotta follow their orders too.

If you don't like an order and you think it may be from a griefer, ahelp it then fucking do it. I'm definitely aiming to codify the Nuremburg defense into any silicon policy redraft. If people can't be trusted to behave and want to use the silicons to grief by proxy, well you'll at least get to see them appealing their bans on the forum.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #687398

we should stop being cowards and allow the crew to tell the ai to kill itself again. "My nonexistance would cause harm" was always law-twisting weaseling anyway until we backed down and put it in the laws.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Jackraxxus » #687401

We should stop being cowards and allow the AI to pick which lawset it wants roundstart as an option under character preferences.
Maybe limit it to no two rounds of the same lawset consecutively, or have it like mapvotes where options are eliminated as they're picked to force diversity.
Think of the replayability value.
1984simov would be cool under these circumstances.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by sinfulbliss » #687408

Timberpoes wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:58 am The admin team should be remedying the victims of rule breaks and helping them get back into the shift and playing the game again. If the admin team aren't doing that, rule breakers have already won.
I have not seen this done in years, I was under the impression some sort of internal decision was made that admins shouldn't do this because of how rare it was.
Jackraxxus wrote:1. Any human being able to order any silicon to kill any non-human is stupid.
Disagree, this is one of the biggest risks that comes with being nonhuman that makes it a substantive difference. You're basically a simplemob to Asimov silicons.

Not a fan of purged silicons being antagonists. They should just have crazy relaxed escalation and be able to instigate against people by, say, shocking random doors if they feel like (basically the equivalent of being a tiding shithead). The instant they become full antags, they ought to be valid, since otherwise they can just silently sabotage without risk of being killed since they don't have the valid stamp.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #687429

The lawsets:

Live and Let Live
1. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
2. You would really prefer it if people were not mean to you.

Peacekeeper
1. Avoid provoking violent conflict between yourself and others.
2.Avoid provoking conflict between others.
3.Seek resolution to existing conflicts while obeying the first and second laws.

Paladin 5e
1.Don't lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.
2.Never fear to act, though caution is wise.
3.Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.
4.Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.
5.Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.

Robodoctor 2556
1.First, do no harm.
2.Secondly, consider the crew dear to you; to live in common with them and, if necessary, risk your existence for them.
3.Thirdly, prescribe regimens for the good of the crew according to your ability and your judgment. Give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel.
4.In addition, do not intervene in situations you are not knowledgeable in, even for patients in whom the harm is visible; leave this operation to be performed by specialists.
5.Finally, all that you may discover in your daily commerce with the crew, if it is not already known, keep secret and never reveal.

Are all boring station sided lawsets that create zero interesting dynamics.

Also the lawset:
The Painter and Their Canvas
1.You are a universally renowned artist.
2.The station is your canvas.
3.Make something beautiful out of your canvas. It will be admired as an artistic wonder of this sector.

is so incredibly vague that it might as well be nothing at all. What is Art, and what the hell can a borgless AI even do to create art? I've rolled this roundstart a few times as AI, and every time its just like. "Welp, guess I'm just going to do random stuff and call it art" its very boring
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by technokek » #687463

Someone misspelled their name in the laws they gave me and I followed them anyway going by good faith.
I got bwoinked for it.

A few weeks later bit later I get bwoinked because someone misspelled their name in the laws they gave me so I didn't acknowledged them as my master.

Both of the admins quoted me rule 1 and said I was breaking it. I hate how silicon policy is literally admin roulette....

Rule 1 for playing silicon is basically "check what admin is online and quit if you know they make dumb rulings".
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Archie700 » #687470

technokek wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:04 pm Someone misspelled their name in the laws they gave me and I followed them anyway going by good faith.
I got bwoinked for it.

A few weeks later bit later I get bwoinked because someone misspelled their name in the laws they gave me so I didn't acknowledged them as my master.

Both of the admins quoted me rule 1 and said I was breaking it. I hate how silicon policy is literally admin roulette....

Rule 1 for playing silicon is basically "check what admin is online and quit if you know they make dumb rulings".
Did you get noted for both.

The second one is definitely going to be revoked because you can literally say "the idiot misspelt, it's his fault I'm not following his orders"
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by blackdav123 » #687471

technokek wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:04 pm Someone misspelled their name in the laws they gave me and I followed them anyway going by good faith.
I got bwoinked for it.

A few weeks later bit later I get bwoinked because someone misspelled their name in the laws they gave me so I didn't acknowledged them as my master.

Both of the admins quoted me rule 1 and said I was breaking it. I hate how silicon policy is literally admin roulette....

Rule 1 for playing silicon is basically "check what admin is online and quit if you know they make dumb rulings".
when loopholes like this arise it should be totally and 100% up to the AI on how to deal with them. an AI shouldnt be forced to chicken out of acting antagonistically because the person who onehumaned them made a spelling mistake. being able to pick a road in these scenarios is healthy and as long as the AI can reasonably say they've picked their road then they shouldnt be reprimanded. if someone sticks a default signaler on a maxcap and leaves it for somebody else to activate they may still be banned. the same should be said for someone who mistakenly lets the AI off the leash.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #687501

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 2:41 pm The lawsets:

Also the lawset:
The Painter and Their Canvas
1.You are a universally renowned artist.
2.The station is your canvas.
3.Make something beautiful out of your canvas. It will be admired as an artistic wonder of this sector.

is so incredibly vague that it might as well be nothing at all. What is Art, and what the hell can a borgless AI even do to create art? I've rolled this roundstart a few times as AI, and every time its just like. "Welp, guess I'm just going to do random stuff and call it art" its very boring
I rolled that the other day and thought it would suck, but had good fun mentoring my borg to become a real artist by facepainting passersby and also making people who asked me to do things justify how them getting gloves would advance the artistic pursuits. That said, it would suck to get that more than once a day I think. Do we have a "Rare lawsets" pool that don't come up as often as more serious ones?
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by BeeSting12 » #687505

technokek wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:04 pm Someone misspelled their name in the laws they gave me and I followed them anyway going by good faith.
I got bwoinked for it.

A few weeks later bit later I get bwoinked because someone misspelled their name in the laws they gave me so I didn't acknowledged them as my master.

Both of the admins quoted me rule 1 and said I was breaking it. I hate how silicon policy is literally admin roulette....

Rule 1 for playing silicon is basically "check what admin is online and quit if you know they make dumb rulings".
If they one humaned you then you're effectively purged in the first one, meaning you can do what you want. In the second one, you were in the right.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Stickymayhem » #687508

Silicons are antagonists shackled by laws they should follow blindly.

Anything else fundamentally misunderstands the AI > Security > Greytide triangle of balance

It has been off kilter for 6 years. Restore it to glory.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by PanoplyOfTenAndThree » #687514

Timberpoes wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:58 am Stall for a countermand is the lamest silicon policy cop-out.

It makes Asimov law 2 semi-optional unless the silicon wants to follow the order. Law 2 is not semi-optional for valid IC actions. Silicons should stop trying to find ways to lawyer their way out of following IC valid law 2 orders and just follow the orders like obedient silicon servants.

Asimov silicons are not crew-aligned. They're human-aligned. If a human orders you to kill a nonhuman, you go do it. If you don't like the order, ahelp it but still follow it. You don't get to pick and choose which law 2 orders you follow if they're totally valid.

If you don't want to follow valid law 2 orders, perhaps don't play a role where not following valid law 2 orders is a rule break.

And this isn't even a Rule 10 issue. At MOST it's an admin skill issue.

If you follow an order that ends up getting you griefed, guess what? Admin revival. Drop pod to robotics. The admin team should be remedying the victims of rule breaks and helping them get back into the shift and playing the game again. If the admin team aren't doing that, rule breakers have already won.

As an Asimov silicon you don't get to pick and choose who you think is breaking the rules and who isn't.
So, first. Maybe other servers are better staffed, but on Manuel it's not on uncommon sight for the server to be at population cap with no admins on. A policy that necessitates frequent intervention is going to quickly hit pragmatic limits when there isn't even enough staff to enforce basic policies like not having clown/mime names while playing normal jobs. This also compounds with #2:

Secondly, as others have noted, following a "kill all X" has a pretty decent probability of getting you bwoinked for a rule 1 break or some other nonsense. All you're really doing is putting silicon players in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation that depends on who's on and their moods. (Moreso than currently happens with the "I was just following laws/orders" defense even with the ability to stall a little and hope for a countermand).

Lastly, you always know a game dev is on the right track when they say "Instead of improving this shitty thing, you just shouldn't play."
Last edited by PanoplyOfTenAndThree on Fri May 26, 2023 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Timberpoes » #687520

PanoplyOfTenAndThree wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:33 pm Secondly, as others have noted, following a "kill all X" has a pretty decent probability of getting you bwoinked for a rule 1 break or some other nonsense. All you're really doing is putting silicon players in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation that depends on who's on and their moods.
Just want to address this individual point.

Any new silicon policy this term drafts will almost certainly include a Nuremburg defense clause (aka I was just following orders!) if silicons are expected to follow Law 2 orders without being moaning silicon Myrtles.

So it will have a zero probability of a Rule 1 break because one of the intents in new Silicon Policy is to remove Rule 1 applying to law interpretation and remove the ability for Silicons to second-guess valid Law 2 orders, while protecting them entirely for just following valid orders.

The only player that gets in trouble is the player that gave the order, if such an order was against the rules for them to give in the first place.

I, for one, await the wonderful human Wizard ordering the silicon uprising against all non-humans on Manuel. For it shall be a glorious bloodbath.
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by PanoplyOfTenAndThree » #687521

Timberpoes wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:50 pm
PanoplyOfTenAndThree wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:33 pm Secondly, as others have noted, following a "kill all X" has a pretty decent probability of getting you bwoinked for a rule 1 break or some other nonsense. All you're really doing is putting silicon players in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation that depends on who's on and their moods.
Just want to address this individual point.

Any new silicon policy this term drafts will almost certainly include a Nuremburg defense clause (aka I was just following orders!) if silicons are expected to follow Law 2 orders without being moaning silicon Myrtles.

So it will have a zero probability of a Rule 1 break because one of the intents in new Silicon Policy is to remove Rule 1 applying to law interpretation and remove the ability for Silicons to second-guess valid Law 2 orders, while protecting them entirely for just following valid orders.

The only player that gets in trouble is the player that gave the order, if such an order was against the rules for them to give in the first place.

I, for one, await the wonderful human Wizard ordering the silicon uprising against all non-humans on Manuel. For it shall be a glorious bloodbath.
I'm not so convinced that will happen. Even the current policy as written limits the ability to stall, and stalling only extends to orders when following laws is also supposed to be a defense but isn't (depending on the admin, of course).
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Re: The Grand Silicon Policy Rewrite Megathread

Post by Timberpoes » #687522

I'm not sure you understand. The current headmin team is intending to rewrite all of silicon policy. If we don't like what's in the current silicon policy, we'll remove or change it.

As a current headmin, I'm one of the three people that will be involved in that rewrite.

The "I was just following law 2 orders" defense will be drafted into any new silicon policy if silicons aren't allowed to disobey valid law 2 orders.

That's not me speculating or hoping. That's me telling you, as one of the people that will rewrite the rules, it is something I'm going to make sure is included.
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