(MRP) Self defense max caps

[carshalash]

This is becoming a pretty tiresome trend on manuel at the moment. People will make max caps to detonate them whenever they're in a bind. These actions violate rule 6,7, 10 of the MRP guidelines, and violates rule 12 of standard server rulings.

This kind of thing was against the rules on the normal servers before the ruling split, seeing it being ignored/encouraged on the MRP servers at the moment is quite disheartening.

[Archie700]

Excuse me, who has been encouraging this?

[vect0r]

I don't think I have ever seen this, has anybody else?

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

This is becoming a pretty tiresome trend on manuel at the moment. People will make max caps to detonate them whenever they're in a bind. These actions violate rule 6,7, 10 of the MRP guidelines, and violates rule 12 of standard server rulings.

This kind of thing was against the rules on the normal servers before the ruling split, seeing it being ignored/encouraged on the MRP servers at the moment is quite disheartening.

Can you provide us with at least 3 shifts where this has happened, 1 for the obvious "I got blown up by this strat so I'm mad about it and that's why I made this thread" and 2 more to actually prove it's even a little bit of a trend? Thanks.

[TheRex9001]

Its already against the rules hello? Its like detonating a self-defence nuclear bomb, its not even allowed on LRP unless its the crews last chance at survival like a greater good type deal.

[carshalash]

This is becoming a pretty tiresome trend on manuel at the moment. People will make max caps to detonate them whenever they're in a bind. These actions violate rule 6,7, 10 of the MRP guidelines, and violates rule 12 of standard server rulings.

This kind of thing was against the rules on the normal servers before the ruling split, seeing it being ignored/encouraged on the MRP servers at the moment is quite disheartening.

Can you provide us with at least 3 shifts where this has happened, 1 for the obvious "I got blown up by this strat so I'm mad about it and that's why I made this thread" and 2 more to actually prove it's even a little bit of a trend? Thanks.

I'll give you 4 my dude.

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207928
Heretics self-defence bomb, detonated and killed 5+

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207936
Cultists self-defence bomb, detonated and only wounded. Cultist later said it was meant to have killed people and was disappointed at its size.

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207876
Non antagonist scientist had their self defence bomb taken from them after they attempted to use it in departures.

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207939
Scientist sprinted to bomb a wizard after rushing their every-round self-defence max cap.

All of these were from the last 24 hours, and I didn't die to any of them.

[vect0r]

I- are you saying that antags shouldn't make self defence bomb?

[carshalash]

I- are you saying that antags shouldn't make self defence bomb?

2 of these are non antag, and one of the antagonists is a conversion antag. desu

[sinfulbliss]

Antags on MRP are allowed to plasmaflood and cause station sabotage (viz: damage) so long as they’re not maximizing killcount. A self defense maxcap just ensures whoever kills you has a good chance of getting bombed and you also space a part of the station to go out with a bang. If you use it in a bind and 5 people die, oh well man, if the alternative is getting perma that seems reasonable.

For conversion antags this was already ruled on here. If it reaches the point of sabotaging your team by killing soon-to-be converts it’s bad, but if it just hits enemies upon your death? Would be fine I think.

For nonantags it’s already banned obviously. I feel like this thread is redundant.

[Farquaar]

I think a self-defence bomb is more tolerable if you warn people about it before it detonates, or if it has a funny timer that counts down or something. The bad guy suddenly nuclear detonating without any comedic buildup is funny sometimes, but it's probably not funny all the time.

[Cheshify]

I don't think it would be contentious to say that on MRP, antags should be prioritizing being interesting over killing as many as they possibly can (in the rules) and non-antags shouldn't be using personal defense nukes. I don't know if this needs policy, or if people need to be ahelping these situations where non-antags decide that personal defense should involve the molecular disintegration of everyone in a 20 tile radius around them.

[Timberpoes]

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207928
Heretics self-defence bomb, detonated and killed 5+

Antag. Highly based reasoning. Totally within the spirit of MRP and MRP antags.

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[2023-06-10 02:31:53.511] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ticket #15: Nukularpower/(Mbwa Kali)->MrrFiish/(Hides-On-Station): i'm a heretic.  i saw cola valid killing some guy, no idea who, with his double claymores.  100% chance as i see it he will come for me if i do anything murdery, so i wanted him out of the way rather than deal with his double holodeck claymore bs
[2023-06-10 02:33:52.744] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #17: Nukularpower/(Mbwa Kali): for the record i have one more ttv i am going to try and get alexa m with.  not trying to maximize bodies, cant even find her yet.  but just saying

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207936
Cultists self-defence bomb, detonated and only wounded. Cultist later said it was meant to have killed people and was disappointed at its size.

Antag. Constrained by team antag rules. No specific MRP ruling required.

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[2023-06-10 04:31:41.995] GAME: Bomb valve opened in Medbay Lobby (140,122,3) with <A HREF='?_src_=holder;admin_token=698100106451103410302210562929205357;secrets=list_signalers'>The remote signaling device</A> attached by <a href='?priv_msg=infinitegalaxies'>InfiniteGalaxies</a>/(Jackson Robin) - Last touched by: <a href='?priv_msg=infinitegalaxies'>InfiniteGalaxies</a>/(Jackson Robin)
[2023-06-10 04:31:42.933] GAME: /obj/item/tank/internals/oxygen exploded with a power of 48.6939 and a mix of TEMP=8730.62, MOL=13.5334, VOL=140 tritium=11.6675;co2=0.0005;plasma=1.8654;
[2023-06-10 04:31:42.934] GAME: Explosion with size (2, 4, 9, 0) in (Medbay Lobby (140,122,3)).  Possible cause: the oxygen tank. Last fingerprints: *null*.

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207876
Non antagonist scientist had their self defence bomb taken from them after they attempted to use it in departures.

Also same player as above.

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207939
Scientist sprinted to bomb a wizard after rushing their every-round self-defence max cap.

Same player as above, now handled administratively.

Code: Select all

[2023-06-10 05:27:54.729] ADMINPRIVATE: TheBibleMelts/(Xemo) has created a note for InfiniteGalaxies: Likes big bombs and he cannot lie.  Was asked to make it not an every-round thing, and understood why.
[2023-06-10 05:32:20.346] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheBibleMelts/(Xemo)->Carshalash/(Zachary Hensha): We were speaking about it, and took action.  Let us know if you notice it continue.

[Vekter]

Nobody's bothered to post the actual rule here, so here we go. Bolded part is relevant specifically to sabotage.

When wanting to cause death and destruction not related to objectives, restricted antagonists may instead rely on extremely relaxed escalation.

They may escalate lethally sooner and with less justification, may use more lethal methods to escalate and may rely on antagonistic reasons for escalating. Such reasons may include escalating against people who are excessively polite or helpful as well as being mean or rude, escalating against groups of people who exclude them or escalating against people who ignore or avoid attempts to communicate entirely.

They have no obligation to treat their victims but escalating over minor issues should not result in the antagonist taking steps to permanently round-remove the other player unless escalation policy would otherwise permit it.

Mass station sabotage that is likely to kill people is allowed so long as the antagonist does not take any direct and specific personal actions to maximise the bodycount beyond what the sabotage itself causes. Examples of mass station sabotage include plasma flooding, causing a supermatter delamination and spacing the station.

The question here is if this counts as taking a "direct and specific personal action to maximize the bodycount" and I would argue it is not. I think it could be a case-by-case basis, ie if someone runs into Medbay and acts painfully and obviously antagonistic to get attacked and thus set it off, that would be different. If it's just an antag who's got one as a contingency plan and sets it off when they die? I'm cool with it.

[Archie700]

It looks like the two antag bombs had valid reasoning (someone actively dangerous, bombing to take out nonmembers and disable medbay) and of the other two, one was handled ingame (confiscated) and the other resulted in a note with the admin even telling you that they took action on it.
This does not seem like "being ignored/encouraged on the MRP servers".

[carshalash]

Same player as above, now handled administratively.

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[2023-06-10 05:27:54.729] ADMINPRIVATE: TheBibleMelts/(Xemo) has created a note for InfiniteGalaxies: Likes big bombs and he cannot lie.  Was asked to make it not an every-round thing, and understood why.
[2023-06-10 05:32:20.346] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheBibleMelts/(Xemo)->Carshalash/(Zachary Hensha): We were speaking about it, and took action.  Let us know if you notice it continue.

Please don't lie to me

[Pandarsenic]

If you don't want to eat an antag's self-defense maxcap, simply incapacitate them from further way.

[NecromancerAnne]

If you don't want to eat an antag's self-defense maxcap, simply incapacitate them from further way.

I didn't realize security had sniper rifles.

[kieth4]

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207928
Heretics self-defence bomb, detonated and killed 5+

Antag. Highly based reasoning. Totally within the spirit of MRP and MRP antags.

Code: Select all

[2023-06-10 02:31:53.511] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ticket #15: Nukularpower/(Mbwa Kali)->MrrFiish/(Hides-On-Station): i'm a heretic.  i saw cola valid killing some guy, no idea who, with his double claymores.  100% chance as i see it he will come for me if i do anything murdery, so i wanted him out of the way rather than deal with his double holodeck claymore bs
[2023-06-10 02:33:52.744] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #17: Nukularpower/(Mbwa Kali): for the record i have one more ttv i am going to try and get alexa m with.  not trying to maximize bodies, cant even find her yet.  but just saying

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207936
Cultists self-defence bomb, detonated and only wounded. Cultist later said it was meant to have killed people and was disappointed at its size.

Antag. Constrained by team antag rules. No specific MRP ruling required.

Code: Select all

[2023-06-10 04:31:41.995] GAME: Bomb valve opened in Medbay Lobby (140,122,3) with <A HREF='?_src_=holder;admin_token=698100106451103410302210562929205357;secrets=list_signalers'>The remote signaling device</A> attached by <a href='?priv_msg=infinitegalaxies'>InfiniteGalaxies</a>/(Jackson Robin) - Last touched by: <a href='?priv_msg=infinitegalaxies'>InfiniteGalaxies</a>/(Jackson Robin)
[2023-06-10 04:31:42.933] GAME: /obj/item/tank/internals/oxygen exploded with a power of 48.6939 and a mix of TEMP=8730.62, MOL=13.5334, VOL=140 tritium=11.6675;co2=0.0005;plasma=1.8654;
[2023-06-10 04:31:42.934] GAME: Explosion with size (2, 4, 9, 0) in (Medbay Lobby (140,122,3)).  Possible cause: the oxygen tank. Last fingerprints: *null*.

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207876
Non antagonist scientist had their self defence bomb taken from them after they attempted to use it in departures.

Also same player as above.

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/207939
Scientist sprinted to bomb a wizard after rushing their every-round self-defence max cap.

Same player as above, now handled administratively.

Code: Select all

[2023-06-10 05:27:54.729] ADMINPRIVATE: TheBibleMelts/(Xemo) has created a note for InfiniteGalaxies: Likes big bombs and he cannot lie.  Was asked to make it not an every-round thing, and understood why.
[2023-06-10 05:32:20.346] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheBibleMelts/(Xemo)->Carshalash/(Zachary Hensha): We were speaking about it, and took action.  Let us know if you notice it continue.

The situations are already covered in the rules- in these scenarios- they were valid or dealt with.