Should people be allowed to suicide at roundstart

Mon May 04, 2015 8:00 pm

Bottom post of the previous page:

Currently killing yourself at roundstart as an assistant or as an unimportant role is allowed.
If you have a reason to go of course this is fine and can be provided, this is strictly for no reason kill yourself and leave shit. (Leaving or disconnecting is effectively the same thing too here)

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Mon May 18, 2015 9:29 am #88973

Yeah bud I'm pretty sure we said we were going to go with the poll on this one.

Clearly it's not most people because most people voted the opposite, and we had a reasonable turnout too.

51/65 don't mind assistants doing it or are even ok with normal jobs doing it occasionally.

Mon May 18, 2015 9:37 am

Stickymayhem wrote:Yeah bud I'm pretty sure we said we were going to go with the poll on this one.

Clearly it's not most people because most people voted the opposite, and we had a reasonable turnout too.

51/65 don't mind assistants doing it or are even ok with normal jobs doing it occasionally.

Uh well over half have a big or slight issue with it, we can leave it at don't make it a habit.
Noting that it's all about unimportant roles here normal jobs aren't mentioned.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 18, 2015 10:02 am #88976

Stickymayhem wrote:51/65 don't mind assistants doing it or are even ok with normal jobs doing it occasionally.

If you wanted a answer to that question you should have actually got the poll worded to reflect that, instead of trying to imply that anyone who voted X meant Y as well.

What the poll clearly tells is that almost 28 of the voters are perfectly fine with people in unimportant (what is unimportant?) roles committing suicide at round start, 23 of the voters see it as acceptable only on occasion and not doing it regularly while 14 voters are against round start suicide at all.

Meaning that the best course of action, if we want to reflect this poll, is to go for the "don't make a habit out of it" route.

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

The poll was meant to be:

Fine as assistant
Fine occasionally as normal jobs
Never ok

I guess it wasn't worded properly if that wasn't obvious. That's the poll we discussed.

Mon May 18, 2015 10:16 am

I thought we already said doing this as a normal job and wasting a slot is bad and shouldn't be allowed?
(THIS IS MUCH EASIER TO DISCUSS ON IRC BY THE WAY)

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

As I said like five times I'm away nerd. I can only access the forums for the next couple of days.

Mon May 18, 2015 11:04 am

Stickymayhem wrote:As I said like five times I'm away nerd. I can only access the forums for the next couple of days.

Alright then we can talk about it more when you come back

!EFFICIENCY!

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Sometinyprick wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:As I said like five times I'm away nerd. I can only access the forums for the next couple of days.
Alright then we can talk about it more when you come back

!EFFICIENCY!

!LEADERSHIP!

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon May 18, 2015 2:38 pm

Stickymayhem wrote:
Sometinyprick wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:As I said like five times I'm away nerd. I can only access the forums for the next couple of days.
Alright then we can talk about it more when you come back

!EFFICIENCY!
!LEADERSHIP!

!BANANNA!

wait

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Mon May 25, 2015 8:56 pm #90685

Can we get a ruling on this? Ive been seeing more people suiciding at roundstart. As Assistant its not a big deal, but any other job should warrant a ban if you suicide at roundstart.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Tue May 26, 2015 3:23 am #90800

If it's repetitive as a job other than assistant adminhelp it. I've spoken to two people about this today.

Marflow · Post by **Marflow** » Thu May 28, 2015 5:56 pm #91338

Trying to 'fix' roundstart suicide is indeed just trying to patch a symptom rather than the disease, not to mention that it will be difficult to enforce. Sure, adding some inconviniences with code to commiting suicide at roundstart might reduce the amount of roundstart suicides, but it will probably also result in increase of greytiding or people just idling/ghosted/braindead. One way to alleviate this issue is to make more recreational areas for all the crew, public garden was a good step to the right direction. Additional recreational areas could be things like secret drug lab in maint, more autism-construction areas (Drones in derelict a good start, though inadequate stuff to do there) etc. Another way is to add content to existing jobs, like bioengineering for viro/botany.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Thu May 28, 2015 8:43 pm #91380

You are misunderstanding. People suicide because they either go random and get a job they do not like, or they are rolling for antag. Neither are acceptable reasons to take up actual job slots and suicide at roundstart.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Fri May 29, 2015 9:49 pm #91664

I go catatonic occasionally to observe, and I don't feel it should be an issue unless there people leaving the round every single time they don't get antag.

I'll put ten to fifteen rounds in as a nonantag, doing work and teaching new people, but it'll get tiring eventually if I don't roll antag, so I'll go catatonic after ten or fifteen minutes of a boring shift to watch who did.

There shouldn't be anything wrong with me ghosting for seemingly no reason once every ten or so rounds.

Alex Crimson · Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:36 pm

Bumping this old thread because apparently this is still an issue. I just observed a round where 5 people suicided within the first few minutes of the round, and they were all in non-Assistant jobs. I know we have a policy for head related suiciding, but can we expand this to stop other suicides as well? As an Assistant its fine because its a useless job, but all other jobs should not be allowed to just suicide. It locks out job slots for actual players, and leaves an ID laying around for antags/griffers. Ive seen the Virologist or Engineers gib themselves outside the HoP line because its some kind of joke now. Its fucking stupid.

And "just adminhelp it" is not a good countermeasure. It feels petty as hell to ahelp this kind of stuff, even if it is a shitty thing to do. Can we not just add it to the rules already and have an announcement?

lzimann · Post by **lzimann** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:17 pm #195113

Holy necro... I guess with the new set of headmins(in roughly 10 days) this can be discussed again.

Alex Crimson · Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:05 pm

The issue was never resolved, hell id say its become worse. It was either bump up this thread or start a new one.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:13 pm #195123

It's never gonna be resolved because trying to force people to actually play the game is impossible.

Screemonster · Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:22 pm

Can't make people play if they don't wanna play.
If they're dead shortly after roundstart a _lot_ then maybe have a tracker of some sort ("hey, this guy's suicided at roundstart as engineer 14 times in the last 20 games, with no suicides as antag, I see what's happening here") but that'd require some unnecessary fuckery.

Maybe implement a jobban-lite that still lets people latejoin or get reassigned, but blocks them from getting it at roundstart if they're in the habit of suiciding as soon as they land a job they should have tagged as "never" in their prefs.

Alex Crimson · Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:41 pm

oranges wrote:It's never gonna be resolved because trying to force people to actually play the game is impossible.

Its not a matter of forcing people to play. They are obviously rolling random jobs or rolling for traitor then suiciding when they dont get what they want. If they are leaving for an actual IRL reason, then they could just message an admin. Why sign up with Virology if you have no desire to play the job?

captain sawrge · Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:26 am

Screemonster wrote:Can't make people play if they don't wanna play.
If they're dead shortly after roundstart a _lot_ then maybe have a tracker of some sort ("hey, this guy's suicided at roundstart as engineer 14 times in the last 20 games, with no suicides as antag, I see what's happening here") but that'd require some unnecessary fuckery.

Maybe implement a jobban-lite that still lets people latejoin or get reassigned, but blocks them from getting it at roundstart if they're in the habit of suiciding as soon as they land a job they should have tagged as "never" in their prefs.

No one is ever going to suicide as antag so why even make that first point

AnonymousNow · Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:48 am

This has been a problem for years, and is indicative of a severe problem the servers have - muh valids.

People cycle because they need another chance at muh valids. Suiciding at round start is part of that.

TheNightingale · Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:42 pm

Antagban them without telling them. They can keep joining and suiciding and being disappointed, forever.

DrPillzRedux · Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:57 pm

I've played this shit for five years, sometimes I want just antag or sometimes I want to play something else.

Only as assistant though.

Alex Crimson · Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:06 pm

TheNightingale wrote:Antagban them without telling them. They can keep joining and suiciding and being disappointed, forever.

Whilst i consider this to be a just punishment, it wouldnt solve the issue of people suiciding and taking up job slots from people that actually want to play. Hell it might actually make it worse.

If you suicide as an Assistant, i think thats fine. Nobody ever expects Assistants to do anything, and its not like taking that job deprives someone else of it.

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:00 pm #195244

I'd like to see security players given the same treatment as heads of staff who suicide at round start.

Post by **Armhulen** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:13 pm #195246

Atlanta-Ned wrote:I'd like to see security players given the same treatment as heads of staff who suicide at round start.

absolutely. yes please.

captain sawrge · Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:43 am

AnonymousNow wrote:This has been a problem for years, and is indicative of a severe problem the servers have - muh valids.

People cycle because they need another chance at muh valids. Suiciding at round start is part of that.

Thats because its literally tyhe most fun part of the game

Yoshmaster · Post by **Yoshmaster** » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:45 pm #195953

People who do this all the time should be declared valid, since the only time they're alive is when they're antag.
It's real great trying to pretend that someone isn't preparing to murder the whole station when you are 100% sure that they are.

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:44 am #196143

Science, mning, and botany already have more cool shit.
Now we need to revamp cooking

NSFW:

medbay

Spoiler:

fuck revamping assistants
clown has enough toys

NSFW:

AND REALLY FIX ENGINEERING
The problem is that since there are more ways to BREAK the station and the only buffs engineering got to combat that is more Rcd's... and goofball. Which doesn't help fix the station at all.

Random assistants are more constructive than engineers.

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:57 am #196189

People who suicide over antag status can get right the fuck out and go to traitor deathmatch or something. If they are in it for the grief lottery and want to fight defenseless crew with coderbus item 3184 that's totally balanced.

People hate conversion modes because of snowball, but when a tator breaks into sec, loots the armory and plays spess columbine simulator 13 its totally fine.

Round start suicides as anything but assistants should be discouraged. If people make a habit job bans (or dare I say antag bans to nip the behavior in the butt) should be handed out.

People complaining about no shit to do need to wake up. We have construction, crafting, public gardening and forum threads of 101 things you can do while bored to pass the time. If people are bitching that all the 'fun' stuff is locked behind the antag wall, they shouldn't be so eager to support PRs on git that cater to antags and widen the power gap and lock the toys up, support pulls for new jobs, equipment and systems.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:26 am #196196

>nip in the butt
Paging Dr. Freud...

The problem is that all the things you can do on a station aren't fun because, with the exception of lavaland, they aren't challenging.
Also: you can't fuck over anyone else if not antag or validhunting, and ruining someone's day is one of the few really entertaining things left to do if you've seen everything and can't into RP for RP's sake.

Alex Crimson · Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:11 pm

DemonFiren wrote:>nip in the butt
Paging Dr. Freud...

The problem is that all the things you can do on a station aren't fun because, with the exception of lavaland, they aren't challenging.
Also: you can't fuck over anyone else if not antag or validhunting, and ruining someone's day is one of the few really entertaining things left to do if you've seen everything and can't into RP for RP's sake.

That is entirely subjective. Some people enjoy the station jobs. Other should not be taking them just so they can suicide within a few minutes. If they want to roll for antag, they can do it as an Assistant rather than selfishly taking up actual jobs without any intent to do them.

Screemonster · Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:33 pm

spawn ninjas to cuck them when they finally do roll tator

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:26 am #196359

A fruedian slip is to say one thing and mean your mother

Rust, DayZ and pretty much every survival mmo game on the market feature this bullshit, if grief lottery is your thing go play one of them

iamgoofball · Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:53 am

oranges wrote:It's never gonna be resolved because trying to force people to actually play the game is impossible.

Alex Crimson · Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:19 pm

Empty quoting a completely useless post, nice jawb. This isnt about forcing people to play the game, its about stopping people from suiciding every round, taking up job slots, and acting incredibly selfish.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:19 pm #196441

Hello, yes, you can't force people to do things they don't like. The sooner you'll understand this, the sooner you'll get over your pointless anger and start doing productive things.

Alex Crimson · Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:57 pm

Im not saying we should force people to play, im saying we should have a policy banning roundstart suicides in all non-Assistant roles. If they want to roll for antag, they are welcome to do it as Assistants.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:35 pm #196464

This should make assistant purges more common.
Not a bad thing.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:44 pm #196470

InsaneHyena wrote:Hello, yes, you can't force people to do things they don't like. The sooner you'll understand this, the sooner you'll get over your pointless anger and start doing productive things.

But you can force people not to do things you don't like.

That's the basis of the whole rules list and most of the policy discussion forum. In this thread, people would like to make it so people don't commit suicide at roundstart if they're not in an assistant role, which is entirely possible. Forcing people not to do that might be a bad idea, but it can be done.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:46 pm #196471

Yeah, smooth moves, instead of suiciding they will just go AFK for tea and biscuits. Great change.

Alex Crimson · Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:48 pm

InsaneHyena wrote:Yeah, smooth moves, instead of suiciding they will just go AFK for tea and biscuits. Great change.

If it were a policy rather than a coder change, they would be banned no matter what method they used.

Post by **oranges** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:19 pm #196505

Hah, admins can barely enforce policy as is and you want to add something really fiddly to enforce?

That'll go so well.

Alex Crimson · Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:32 pm

How would it be hard to enforce? Im not an admin so i do not know what tools they get, but im pretty sure they can add notes to players. If someone is repeatedly doing this, it would be possible to track it with notes, no? Any admin that observes from the start of the round can see who dies. Hell as a coder person im sure you could code something similar to the roundstart logout report thingy, but for deaths.

TheNightingale · Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:05 am

Observe at roundstart, wait three minutes, check the orbit list for anyone who's dead; if they're a suicide, note. Second time, antagban.
"But then they'll go braindead!"
Ban those ones too. Ban everyone until they get the message.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:07 am #196520

^^^This is why you aren't a game developer

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:31 am #196529

TheNightingale wrote:Ban everyone until they get the message.

IM TRYING

ShadowDimentio · Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:38 am

Atlanta-Ned wrote:I'd like to see security players given the same treatment as heads of staff who suicide at round start.

>Get rolled into a job you hate because you wanted to be clown along with everyone else
>Suicide because security is suffering
>Get banned because ??????

G e n i u s

TheNightingale wrote:Observe at roundstart, wait three minutes, check the orbit list for anyone who's dead; if they're a suicide, note. Second time, antagban.
"But then they'll go braindead!"
Ban those ones too. Ban everyone until they get the message.

>Join the round
>Suddenly mom/work/your cat calls and needs something
>Have to leave
>Come back to be banned because you went braindead

G E N I U S

Alex Crimson · Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:50 am

How about you stop enabling jobs if you dont want to do them? If you do not want to play Sec, just disable it in your preferences. Unless that old bug is still around where you would get forced to play jobs you didnt select, but im sure that was fixed a long time ago.

If you need to leave at the start of the round, then send an adminhelp. As long as you do not make it a regular thing then i doubt it would be an issue. This is a policy to stop the repeat offenders, not anyone and everyone who has other shit to do.

lzimann · Post by **lzimann** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:25 am #196569

Alex Crimson wrote:How about you stop enabling jobs if you dont want to do them? If you do not want to play Sec, just disable it in your preferences. Unless that old bug is still around where you would get forced to play jobs you didnt select, but im sure that was fixed a long time ago.

He probably has the "Get random job if preferences unavailable" option toggled.

Should you be allowed to suicide at roundstart fnr