Increase the bombcap? [POLL]

Sun May 10, 2015 11:40 pm

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3481
Old topic for reference
This is not a removal of the bomb cap it is simply an increase, a slight one at that.
The first number is total destruction the second heavy and the third light.
Performance is not an issue, but for some the overtly destructive nature of bombs being increased might be a problem hence the poll.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sun May 10, 2015 11:53 pm #87153

I feel that currently any semi-decent mix already gets you a 3/7/14 bomb. I would love it if the bomb cap was slightly increased, but making a 4/8/16 bomb should require a mix that is REALLY good.

onleavedontatme · Sun May 10, 2015 11:57 pm

I think we should wait and do some testing with the new explosive code first, see how bombs in the regular spots (escape, medbay, etc) work now that R walls will weaken explosives. But the middle option doesn't sound too bad.

I will say that 5/10/20 is absolutely nuts though, there is a reason bag of holding bombs do not explode that big anymore

Mon May 11, 2015 12:04 am

CPTANT wrote:I feel that currently any semi-decent mix already gets you a 3/7/14 bomb. I would love it if the bomb cap was slightly increased, but making a 4/8/16 bomb should require a mix that is REALLY good.

It really can't be changed it will always be very easy.

Kor wrote:I think we should wait and do some testing with the new explosive code first, see how bombs in the regular spots (escape, medbay, etc) work now that R walls will weaken explosives. But the middle option doesn't sound too bad.

I will say that 5/10/20 is absolutely nuts though, there is a reason bag of holding bombs do not explode that big anymore

It's been tested a little bit, I did a couple tests on a local server and the live one and everything seemed to be fine.
5,10,20 might be a little crazy but if people want to go nuts it's always an option.

Mon May 11, 2015 12:55 am

With the new performance increases and subtle explosion nerf, I'd be perfectly okay with a slight raise to 4,18,16. We wouldn't be getting hit by lag any harder than we already would be, and explosions will work slightly differently but have roughly the same potential for destruction.

Man_Shroom · Post by **Man_Shroom** » Mon May 11, 2015 1:18 am #87181

I think a 4 dev bomb would be great, but I ALSO think that certain explosives(Supermatter, mostly) should have their own bombcap that is different from the TTV bombcap. I also think that the cuban pete bombs from the arcade should be more powerful/have their own bombcap that is higher than the normal bombs.

tedward1337 · Post by **tedward1337** » Mon May 11, 2015 2:39 am #87195

5, 10, 20 git

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon May 11, 2015 2:59 am #87207

I, too, believe in maximum rhumbatude.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:36 am #87214

I don't think this poll is very useful, without some stats, or better yet, some pictures to show what bombs can do at different caps, with regards to how walls and shit can block them.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:37 am #87215

Toxins is already fucking retarded in how well it can blow things up.

Huge, absolutely unneeded buff to rev+traitor

EDIT: Bear in mind this is also not asking anything more of toxins, 66/33 all 3 canisters burned will net you a bomb that still goes over the current poll leading cap increase

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 11, 2015 3:42 am #87218

This is relevent. Could someone make versions wih different level bomb caps?

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:05 am #87225

Scones wrote:buff to rev+traitor

sorta but not really, since bombs are also getting kinda nerfed which would counteract any buff from raising the bomb cap in most cases

edit: see lumi's gif above, explosion rage is severely limited by walls/rwalls etc. and regardless of where you are on the station there is usually a wall at most five tiles away

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:25 am #87235

I used to support bigger bomb caps but then I released, it doesn't matter if they are 3,7,14 or 4,8,16 or 5,10,20. The shuttle is going to get called immediately. Only thing that changes the amount of lag.

Keep the bomb cap the same. Hell just make toxins spawn with more valves.

peoplearestrange · Mon May 11, 2015 3:39 pm

ThatSlyFox wrote:I used to support bigger bomb caps but then I released, it doesn't matter if they are 3,7,14 or 4,8,16 or 5,10,20. The shuttle is going to get called immediately. Only thing that changes the amount of lag.

Keep the bomb cap the same. Hell just make toxins spawn with more valves.

Genuinely this, if there are enough bombs distributed about, the size of the bomb cap as little to no odds. Other than someone making one massive bomb, which kinda feels like less work and more gain.

edit: Look at it this way, do we feel the current bomb cap is hindering gameplay or RP at all? Is the lower bomb cap making bombers lives miserable? And how would a larger bomb cap effect those around it etc.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon May 11, 2015 4:25 pm #87372

ThatSlyFox wrote:I used to support bigger bomb caps but then I released, it doesn't matter if they are 3,7,14 or 4,8,16 or 5,10,20. The shuttle is going to get called immediately. Only thing that changes the amount of lag.

Keep the bomb cap the same. Hell just make toxins spawn with more valves.

6 valves is enough to devastate pretty much everything you could need to devastate as a traitor

TechnoAlchemist · Mon May 11, 2015 4:33 pm

I'm not completely sure about that though. I always want more bombs. Since I do escape/medbay/bridge/cargo/suicide

I always want more for AI, science, and engineering.

kevinthezhang · Mon May 11, 2015 4:35 pm

I don't see what increasing the bombcap will add to gameplay. The explosions will be marginally bigger, but they will still be the round-ending phenomena they always were.

As peoplearestrange mentioned, I don't think anyone is complaining about their current size being too small either. Plus, increases in bomb cap will be easily reached with current formulas anyway. Perhaps this could work if the mechanic was changed.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 11, 2015 9:53 pm #87438

Guys, look at the damn gif.
Putting a max cap bomb (remember a syndie bomb is even weaker) next to an r-wall will do next to nothing to the otherside.
Max cap bombs can't even damage blast doors anymore.

This isn't raising the bomb cap in isolation, which I have always been opposed to.

Bombs are getting nerfed by a neat change to make them more realistic, so our current bombs will be far weaker afterwards.

This also effects explosives under the cap, such as syndie/mini bombs, slime nades, chem nades etc etc.
It's quite significant.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue May 12, 2015 7:02 am #87569

Which is precisely why I'd argue for 5 dev. Give Pete a chance.

peoplearestrange · Tue May 12, 2015 10:46 am

> Blast door protects against blasts
OH NO! Its doing exactly what its supposed to do! Increase the bomb cap post haste!

EDIT: Actually, sorry that was really aggressive (I didnt get enough sleep).

My point is that a blast door and r-wall are supposed to at least dampen the damage like they currently do. I'm not sure anyone's ever use a tank-transfer to blow a hole in a wall tactilely though. They're normally used to destroy a blob or cause as much destruction as quickly as possible to get the shuttle called/kill as many people as possible.

Tue May 12, 2015 11:31 am

Enabled voting change because Lumipharon brought up a good point
and i should have enabled it anyway

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue May 12, 2015 10:18 pm #87726

Is anyone able to prove pictures of what bombs would do in common bomb spots with the upchange both for:
Current explosive (like syndie bombs and current max cap).
Proposed upgraded bomb cap bombs.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Wed May 13, 2015 11:08 pm #87970

lumipharon wrote:Is anyone able to prove pictures of what bombs would do in common bomb spots with the upchange both for:
Current explosive (like syndie bombs and current max cap).
Proposed upgraded bomb cap bombs.

Prepare yourself for a ride.

Syndicate Bomb (2,5,11) | Current Max Cap (3,7,14)
4, 8, 16 | 5,10,20

Red: Certainly Fucked
Yellow: Probably Fucked
Blue: Could Maybe Be Fucked

Behind the Comms APC

In front of the Bridge

In front of the Bridge (with the shutters down)

AI Core Breach

Armory Breach

Genetics Sabotage

Bonus Round: (32, 64, 128) explosion in front of bridge (maximum allowed with badmining)

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Thanks for the unlabelled rammed-together pictures which don't mean anything to me. That helps make an informative choice.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu May 14, 2015 11:15 am #88082

But he literally did label them.

top left is current syndie bomb,
top right is current max cap
Bottom left is 4,8,16
Bottom right is 5,10,20

This is with the upcoming change to bombs factored in.

Mon May 18, 2015 8:29 am

I believe with these new changes 5,10,20 seems like an appropriate explosion strength.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 18, 2015 8:52 am #88966

An important thing to note, is that to be sure to destroy something on the otherside of an r-wall (like the tcomms apc), anything less then the 5,10,20 is not guaranteed to do it.

peoplearestrange · Mon May 18, 2015 1:08 pm

lumipharon wrote:An important thing to note, is that to be sure to destroy something on the otherside of an r-wall (like the tcomms apc), anything less then the 5,10,20 is not guaranteed to do it.

Actually thats not what the picture shows at all. ALL of the pictures show that the Comms APC is guaranteed to be destroyed (red).
Just in the current proposed max cap (5,10,20) it has a good chance (yellow) to destroy ALL of tcomms with one bomb, making nothing salvageable.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon May 18, 2015 2:36 pm

APCs aren't on their walls, they're on the floor in front of them.

I mean, Yellow right next to the red will pretty much always be trashed, especially an APC, but lumi is technically correct, if Red is "devastation"

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 18, 2015 9:45 pm #89185

It also means, unless the syndie bomb is buffed, ops/traitos are better off c4'ing in rather then the old 'bomb outside', because of the unreliability.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Mon May 18, 2015 9:51 pm #89187

In terms of TC cost, that's already a better deal even right now.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 18, 2015 11:00 pm #89208

Yeah but for ops especially, it's far easier to get caught before comms are down, since you're going on camera and some engineer could be inside/someone hear the first c4 etc.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Tue May 19, 2015 3:39 am #89262

c4 the wall by the apc, than bomb the rest once the wall goes down. push it in, arm it, run, hit the button.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Tue May 19, 2015 3:50 am #89267

Gotta admit, I was going for a slight increase in bomb size with the bomb changes and performance upgrades (and therefore wanted 4/8/16), but looking at those images, 5/10/20 looks like a ton of fun. I don't really care if the server holds up for a few seconds longer or the shuttle gets called instantly anyways, I just want to see an insanely large explosion like that ingame.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Tue May 19, 2015 6:56 pm #89364

3/7/14 is comically easy to make. Raise it.

Thu May 21, 2015 2:02 pm

I believe it has already been raised, we agreed on 5,10,20 and MSO said he would raise it

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Thu May 21, 2015 10:54 pm #89822

Not quite, its on my list of things to do.

Currently there is no config option to raise it, and my update system doesn't allow for local modifications of the code, it always resets state to track the github when updating.

I got sidetracked by tracking the memory leak byond bug that had been the source of most of our crashes.

but adding that config is on my list, and i've pushed it to the top.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu May 21, 2015 10:57 pm #89823

Pandarsenic wrote:3/7/14 is comically easy to make. Raise it.

I mean, so is the proposed cap. Toxins is a mongoloid job right now that can reach max capacity in a couple minutes with fastmos burning.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri May 22, 2015 6:05 am

On the other hand, it's also much easier to completely crap up your mix if you get distracted while it's burning, because everything also cools down faster.

Fri May 22, 2015 5:03 pm

This should be implemented at 5,10, 20 now.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:00 pm #96752

This should now actually be in place.

New bombcap is 20, as per the poll.

What should the bomb cap be?