A Reminder and Discussion on Drone behaviour

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed May 20, 2015 2:58 pm #89564

Drone Laws

Spoiler:

Drone Law Guideline

Spoiler:

The basic jist as we handle it now, is you can go off and do some autistic building on the station z-level if it's an improvement (Basically anything you build attached to the station that isn't going to hurt or hinder people on it) an example of which would be expanding escape out into a big room. Yeah it'll be an airless room for a while or half space or whatever, but just like with asimov you can force these laws into binding literally every action so we have to remember it's a game.

You cannot prevent shit. That means not turning off the singularity if it's about to escape. You can repair the damage it causes (Good luck) after it is released but you cannot prevent it's release. Obviously this is because it has a major effect on beings, but gamewise antags don't want ghosts coming back to ruin their plans. Similarly leave dangerous canisters alone. Some traitor running around with a plasma canister venting? Oh no plasma! Drag a scrubber behind him.

As for people deconstructing things you can 'interfere' in a cute stupid way. Dude deconstructs a wall? Oh no that wall has been damaged! Time to repair! You can do this as many times as you want until they hit you (in which case you should scarper off) or kill you. As with anything, these little interactions are fine in moderation, but if it's clear you're just playing drone to irritate people you catch a ban, so do this shit good-naturedly and infrequently. If you do this in an important situation, however, you'll get in trouble. Don't rebuild a wall behind the traitor that just c4ed the Captain's office, or "Repair" a wall as someone desperately tries to break back into the station from space suffocating. Take a moment, consider if it's risky and if you aren't sure, adminhelp or just don't do it.

It's really as simple as roleplaying as a drone who doesn't see humans, but only the effect they have. If you're creative this can be a great chance for hilarious situations around naive, cute drones trying to help and getting rebuffed by grouchy engineers.

This is how I think they should work, they kinda mostly do already but it would be nice if everyone, players and admins included, were on the same page. So here you go. Not really a change, just a "This is how we should do that"

It hopefully strikes a reasonable balance between drones being humorous and entertaining to interact with and play, without enabling shittery.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Wed May 20, 2015 3:45 pm #89569

The improve part though, it can basically be seen as prevention though. Since by disabling a bomb, or turning down the singularity, thus preventing the station from being damaged, you improve and maintain the station.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Wed May 20, 2015 3:49 pm #89570

firecage wrote:The improve part though, it can basically be seen as prevention though. Since by disabling a bomb, or turning down the singularity, thus preventing the station from being damaged, you improve and maintain the station.

Yeah, and Law 1 for Asimov silicons can be taken to mean that you're obligated to put each crewmember in an isolated harmproof cage. Some interpretations of laws are against the rules because they go against what the purpose of the role in the game is.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed May 20, 2015 4:08 pm #89573

firecage wrote:The improve part though, it can basically be seen as prevention though. Since by disabling a bomb, or turning down the singularity, thus preventing the station from being damaged, you improve and maintain the station.

That's just silly and you know it.

There's no point playing devil's advocate to be deliberately retarded people. I know you all know, in 99% of situations, what's ok and what isn't in terms of drone laws.

TheNightingale · Wed May 20, 2015 4:23 pm

I love drones, but...

When doing something that prevents the station's damage but might be interfering (e.g. you find a power sink; there's an active syndicate bomb; the PA is at +2), ahelp it first. Whilst stealing the nuke is undoubtedly funny and heroic, it's against your laws.

So don't do it.
A drone thinks "Oh, look, an active nuclear bomb", maybe chitters to its other drones to prepare to fix the damage (good luck with that).

On a slightly related note, are drones clear to ride around on the janicart with a floor buffer upgrade (for fast floor cleaning)? Assuming there's no janitor, that is.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Wed May 20, 2015 4:32 pm #89578

I'm glad you posted this, because otherwise it wouldn't have been obvious to me that making sure the engine was running correctly and safely wasn't allowed maintenance. I suppose it makes sense that you can't have ghosts jumping in and stopping singularity release.

Also, I see a lot of people saying drones mustn't go on the shuttle. The laws don't mention the station as the place of maintenance, repair, etc. If the shuttle is even slightly damaged or could do with any improvement, can't you go on and work there?

On an unrelated note, if a human is passing by and happens to say "drone, there is a hull breach in the chapel" without commanding me to fix it, am I obliged to now not fix the chapel, because it is something he knows about and therefore one of his 'matters', or obliged to fix the chapel (let's assume it's the only broken thing on station), or what?

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Wed May 20, 2015 4:49 pm #89582

Well, drones will occasionally wordlessly assist or help engineers in fixing breaches. Yes it's.. interfering in another being's matters to an extent but it's the intent here that counts and drones doing so aren't maliciously interfering.

I mean really, the laws should be more intent based than 'rules as written'.

It's my opinion that drones should be allowed on the shuttle as long as they don't fucking touch or do anything. Drones probably just like to ride the shuttle with the other players since it does feel a bit lonely if you don't catch it and there's really no harm in letting players feel a bit less lonely.

TheNightingale · Wed May 20, 2015 4:50 pm

You're all clear to fix a breach someone tells you about (not 'obligated' per se, because you might be occupied with another matter), but if they say "Drone, I'm fixing the chapel, don't come in", you have to obey that command. One of the best ways to get a drone to do something is just to point it out to them; "Oh, look, there's a breach in the Chapel. I sure wish someone fixed that," for example.

If the human knows about it, that's fine - they'll probably know about a bomb going off, and you really should be fixing that hole it made. Only if they explicitly tell you to go away should you start listening to their commands.

I do wonder, though, where the line is between repair and interference. We know it's not OK to fix the PA and stop a singuloose, because it's not damaged (yet), but what about if the emitter wires have been cut (and therefore need repairing)? Can a drone print off a bag of holding to stop a loose singularity?

If someone's breaking windows on the shuttle, wait for them to stop... and then fix the windows. But you're more likely to be worn as a hat by then.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Wed May 20, 2015 4:58 pm #89585

Printing off a bag of holding to stop a singulo doesn't seem repair-like to me, it seems more preventative (read: useless and futile) than anything else.

Drones fixing emitter wires should be kosher when whoever has done it has left the area for a while.

edit- or not. Depends on how much players should follow the intent of the laws rather than the words as written. I dunno why the server stresses out so much about trying to get an exact IC wording down that fits all loopholes when it could just add an OOC message to drones that overrides any IC laws they get, telling them what they can do or can't do. It's not game-ruining if drones get a nice red OOC popup in their chatbox telling them 'You're here to be a helpful and mildly noticeable presence on the station. You specifically don't mess with anything that an antag might have done, unless it's to help fix or clean up after they've long since finished whatever they've done.' or some variation on that.

edit2- or just cram in the drone guidelines that sticky wrote into the chatlog messages that ghosts get when becoming a drone.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed May 20, 2015 5:24 pm #89589

Cheimon wrote:I'm glad you posted this, because otherwise it wouldn't have been obvious to me that making sure the engine was running correctly and safely wasn't allowed maintenance. I suppose it makes sense that you can't have ghosts jumping in and stopping singularity release.

Also, I see a lot of people saying drones mustn't go on the shuttle. The laws don't mention the station as the place of maintenance, repair, etc. If the shuttle is even slightly damaged or could do with any improvement, can't you go on and work there?

On an unrelated note, if a human is passing by and happens to say "drone, there is a hull breach in the chapel" without commanding me to fix it, am I obliged to now not fix the chapel, because it is something he knows about and therefore one of his 'matters', or obliged to fix the chapel (let's assume it's the only broken thing on station), or what?

If you want to handle that breach the dude informed you about there isn't a problem. It's just extra information. If they make it clear in any way you're annoying or interfering with them then you can fuck off.

The singularity and supermatter are just too impactful on the round to mess with. Stay away from them or if you're extra insanely careful, set up the singularity in full knowledge that if you fuck it up you're getting banned. If someone has changed the PA to 2 you're not really meant to be forward thinking enough to realize that's bad. You don't see any broken tiles or whatever? Then everything is fine, even if the singularity is straining at the barriers. Think in terms of immediate basic damage and not in terms of maintaining the entire complex station.

Ignore singularities except to repair the damage they leave in their wake. Stuff that damages the station shouldn't ever concern you. Only the actual damage should concern you.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed May 20, 2015 6:15 pm #89596

Just a quick note: I wrote the "What It Means" section on the wiki. Do not take it as gospel -- I don't make the code nor do I make the policy. I just write shit. If it does not line up with policy as it is currently enforced I can change it.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed May 20, 2015 6:15 pm #89597

Just a quick note: I wrote the "What It Means" section on the wiki. Do not take it as gospel -- I don't make the code nor do I make the policy. I just write shit. If it does not line up with policy as it is currently enforced I can change it.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed May 20, 2015 7:09 pm #89607

That's fine, it was a decent guideline.

If you notice any discrepancies between what I said here and the wiki feel free to edit it if you can be bothered.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Wed May 20, 2015 7:28 pm #89615

I will admit, I have ridden the jannycart around as a drone and just went total janitor drone before. It was hilarious and I got weird looks but I was just cleaning. ;_;

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed May 20, 2015 8:54 pm #89633

Janicart drone is fine if they don't interfere when the cart inevitably gets taken off them.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Wed May 20, 2015 8:57 pm #89634

Reminds me of that one drone we had to ban because it one-humaned the AI.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Wed May 20, 2015 9:00 pm #89635

I liked playing drones, when they first came out, as having no object permanence. Like babies. No recognition of humans, etc. Everything was always new and objects that were damaged arne't supposed to be that waY(as the only exception to object permanence)

I half wish they could interact with humans though... and had guns.

Be cause DRDs.

mosquitoman · Post by **mosquitoman** » Wed May 20, 2015 10:39 pm #89646

Stickymayhem wrote: It's really as simple as roleplaying as a drone who doesn't see humans, but only the effect they have.

What if... you actually make all mobs other than other drones invisible to them?

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Wed May 20, 2015 10:50 pm #89647

That was actually done on /vg/. I'm not sure how it turned out because I hate autistic crabs and never listen to anything they have to say.

Remie Richards · Wed May 20, 2015 11:15 pm

I'm fairly certain the IDEA was brought up on /vg/, but turned down because everyone realises it's fucking garbage as anything but a concept.
It got brought up here when I ported /vg/ static vision, guess what happened? turned down because it's garbo.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Wed May 20, 2015 11:43 pm #89652

Drones do have clearly set laws, we all know this. If you're a good drone player 99% of the time you don't save the station and you just repair shit after it's broken or maintain the sing or w/e to keep the station maintained. Granted if you're Nuke Ops ANCHOR the nuke.

Post by **Vekter** » Thu May 21, 2015 12:14 am #89655

I actually got an ahelp from the op next round, turns out you can't anchor the bomb on a catwalk. TIL.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu May 21, 2015 1:14 am #89660

Vekter wrote:I actually got an ahelp from the op next round, turns out you can't anchor the bomb on a catwalk. TIL.

This is why you take the extra ten seconds to shove the nuke into the double airlock below SW solars and trap one of your teammates because he wandered in there

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Thu May 21, 2015 1:21 am #89661

ThanatosRa wrote:I liked playing drones, when they first came out, as having no object permanence. Like babies. No recognition of humans, etc. Everything was always new and objects that were damaged arne't supposed to be that waY(as the only exception to object permanence)

I half wish they could interact with humans though... and had guns.

Be cause DRDs.

I shouldn't be surprised that some spessmen are Farscape fans.
It'd be interesting to have drones for various purposes, but the whole cost versus effectiveness thing means we're stuck with what we get I guess.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Thu May 21, 2015 1:46 am #89665

Vekter wrote:I actually got an ahelp from the op next round, turns out you can't anchor the bomb on a catwalk. TIL.

:V fucking what, other servers you can anchor the nuke on catwalks. -9/10

Incomptinence · Thu May 21, 2015 4:59 am

Akkryls wrote: It'd be interesting to have drones for various purposes, but the whole cost versus effectiveness thing means we're stuck with what we get I guess.

I'm dead keen on a miner specialist that spawns able to dig/shovel with its bare hands innately detects and spawns with a satchel instead of a toolbox that miners can buy with their sometimes excessive points. Maybe give it a slightly altered gathering focused lawset. Also would complement normal drones who really need resources.

Xerux · Post by **Xerux** » Thu May 21, 2015 5:50 am #89692

mosquitoman wrote:What if... you actually make all mobs other than other drones invisible to them?

I think that's an option for them actually, I remember seeing a drone verb that lets you set the mob overlay between: Static, text (I think it just showed an M or something) and nothing.

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu May 21, 2015 6:46 am

No, it's between Static, Blank Outline, and Text

TheNightingale · Thu May 21, 2015 6:51 am

Incomptinence wrote:
Akkryls wrote: It'd be interesting to have drones for various purposes, but the whole cost versus effectiveness thing means we're stuck with what we get I guess.
I'm dead keen on a miner specialist that spawns able to dig/shovel with its bare hands innately detects and spawns with a satchel instead of a toolbox that miners can buy with their sometimes excessive points. Maybe give it a slightly altered gathering focused lawset. Also would complement normal drones who really need resources.

No need for a mining specialist, so long as we get meson vision* that can go in your helmet or gas mask slot. Extend the drone's head slot to fit eyewear as well?

Head: Mesons
Left hand: Drill
Right hand: Mining satchel
Back: Dufflebag with miscellaneous gear

*They have xray currently; they can't see metal ore in rock.

mosquitoman · Post by **mosquitoman** » Thu May 21, 2015 7:22 am #89706

Remie Richards wrote:I'm fairly certain the IDEA was brought up on /vg/, but turned down because everyone realises it's fucking garbage as anything but a concept.
It got brought up here when I ported /vg/ static vision, guess what happened? turned down because it's garbo.

Can you elaborate? Why is it "garbo" (whatever that means in ebonics)?

Tokiko2 · Post by **Tokiko2** » Thu May 21, 2015 7:29 am #89707

Are drones allowed to fight/wall off kudzu? They shouldn't be, seeing as getting, growing and finally spreading it is already rather complicated. And plants are living organisms too.

What about hostile mobs/slimes? I see a lot of drones who like to wall off whenever these appear in a round.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Thu May 21, 2015 8:42 am #89714

Tokiko2 wrote:Are drones allowed to fight/wall off kudzu? They shouldn't be, seeing as getting, growing and finally spreading it is already rather complicated. And plants are living organisms too.

What about hostile mobs/slimes? I see a lot of drones who like to wall off whenever these appear in a round.

Does it have static?

>Y > Leave it alone, you can repair any damage it causes, but you avoid it.
>N > REPAIR, MAINTAIN, IMPROVE as long as it isn't actively going against other players, i.e. spacing the nuke.

Kudzu is a plant, I'd say that's just garden work for the drones.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu May 21, 2015 9:27 am #89717

The rule I go with is 'if you see someone grow kudzu, you leave them alone. If you see someone plant kudzu, you leave them alone. As soon as the kudzu mutates into stationfuckery (threshold: choking an area larger than a single screen), it's cleanup time.'

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu May 21, 2015 3:55 pm

But sticky says that drones do not remove the cause of damage, they only repair it. And kudzu doesn't damage the station except break lights (and bombkudzu explodes, so you can fix that)

TheNightingale · Thu May 21, 2015 4:13 pm

The kudzu -is- the damage. "That shouldn't be there! Let's fix it."

Remie Richards · Thu May 21, 2015 4:26 pm

mosquitoman wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:I'm fairly certain the IDEA was brought up on /vg/, but turned down because everyone realises it's fucking garbage as anything but a concept.
It got brought up here when I ported /vg/ static vision, guess what happened? turned down because it's garbo.
Can you elaborate? Why is it "garbo" (whatever that means in ebonics)?

garbo is just garbage written differently, it's not a real word.

To properly explain my case, Having mobs be invisible to drones would cause situations where a drone would interfere without even knowing there was anybody there.
They would probably also end up complaining to admins/reporting bugs that things were just randomly happening (when in actuality, it was an invisible player just interacting)
This is why drones see mobs as a static outline (or black outline or text, depending on preference) so they atleast know there is somebody there that they may accidentally interfere with.

tl;dr Invisible mobs is bad for the mob and bad for the drone.

TheNightingale · Thu May 21, 2015 4:29 pm

Drones can't distinguish between the different states of a mob, though - a live space carp and a dead space carp look exactly the same, until one starts moving.
"Oh, no! A carp! Am I interfering if I run aw--BZZT"
Would it be possible to make hostile mobs (e.g. mimic crates, space carp, frenzied slimes) ignore drones? If so, would it be a good idea?

Remie Richards · Thu May 21, 2015 4:31 pm

Well there's two things here:

"Why would a hungry animal bother to attack a machine it can't eat?"

and

"Why wouldn't a hungry animal bother to attack a machine it can't eat?"

Though I doubt most of our hostile mobs are hungry, they're just all dicks, so it's probably best to leave it as is (Including the "is it dead? I can't tell")

Hibbles · Post by **Hibbles** » Thu May 21, 2015 4:59 pm #89772

The entirety of what you need to know about drones: If you're going to fuck over any other actual player (who's not a drone) by doing x, don't do x.

Post by **Jacquerel** » Thu May 21, 2015 6:37 pm #89783

running away from a carp isn't interfering anyway, surely
that's not interacting with anyone except yourself (to prevent your own death)

Hibbles · Post by **Hibbles** » Thu May 21, 2015 7:59 pm #89795

True, and normally we allow/encourage/tell drones to retreat from other beings if they're ever in doubt about what Interference means.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Fri May 22, 2015 12:41 pm #89890

Stickymayhem wrote:If you do this in an important situation, however, you'll get in trouble. Don't rebuild a wall behind the traitor that just c4ed the Captain's office, or "Repair" a wall as someone desperately tries to break back into the station from space suffocating. Take a moment, consider if it's risky and if you aren't sure, adminhelp or just don't do it.

But if drones aren't even meant to be aware that theres a thing there then why should they care if a traitor blew up the wall instead of just patching it up as they would've done normally?

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Fri May 22, 2015 12:59 pm #89891

They'd be interfering with the traitor. You have to be a little meta about this: Drones are not meant to get anyone red- or greentext. They're meant to be the silent cleanup crew, much like a mime janitorneer who never slips anyone or shockbolts.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri May 22, 2015 3:00 pm

This is why I still say drones should be unable to see human mobs unless you're being worn on them, so you can't consciously or unconsciously try to deny text

mosquitoman · Post by **mosquitoman** » Fri May 22, 2015 3:08 pm #89903

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:This is why I still say drones should be unable to see human mobs unless you're being worn on them, so you can't consciously or unconsciously try to deny text

Exactly, this is the best solution. Especially since you're supposed to essentially LARP being blind to humans despite still seeing them.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Fri May 22, 2015 3:14 pm #89906

That makes them less fun, If we prove we cannot be trusted with nice things, we won't have them.
How about instead of making them impossible to fuck up, we just strive to not fuck up with them.

This isn't exactly an extinction level event, one guy misinterpreted the rules as they pertain to interference, this was corrected, problem solve 10 outta 10, system works.
nothing NEEDS to be 'done about it' The word is out, don't prevent damage by directly involving yourself in the round, Precedent set. boom, headshot, done.

Nothing in your rules say pretend to be oblivious to beings, it just says don't interfere. Not being able to see or even hear as a drone means you cannot keep up with the round and follow along to be entertained by wacky santa antics, or whatever the fuck else is going on.