AI has to follow server rules while purged?

onleavedontatme · Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:21 am

Maybe I should wait till I'm in the mood to write something long and involved but I'm not sure what else to say other than it's a terrible rule that goes against everything the laws are about, and everything the AI is about thematically.

How a purged AI acts should be completely up to the AI. I know being massacred by the AI isn't super exciting but it's just nonsensical that the classic supercomputer with all its rules removed to still in fact have rules. Discuss.

Post by **oranges** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:24 am #98443

No they should still have to follow the server rules.

Being purged doesn't mean you can start ic in ooc and ERPing now does it.

Perhaps an amendment regarding the validity of other players when you are purged?

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:31 am #98445

No fun allowed for AIs sorry Kor.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:41 am #98447

Law changes are fun, as a break from ALL ASIMOV ALL THE TIME. People don't change laws as often as I'd like, and when they do it's generally to upload no-fun meta lawsets that let the AI kill antags. I think one of the reason people don't change laws often is because of AI player's tendencies to abuse any loophole they can asspull, so you might as well just stick with the default, safest ASIMOV. I think having a Rule 1 safety net is good, so you can have a little fun with laws without worrying too much about "oops I misworded something and now everybody is dead".

Someone will of course respond to this with "but that's how AI is supposed to be". Well, it's something that has to happen sparingly or else it gets tiring and people stop trying to change laws and then it doesn't happen at all.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:42 am #98448

well, that's why they're ooc rules not IC rules.

The general consensus as far as I've seen is follow rules but you've got a lot more leeway then normal people - shitting on people that have been dickish to you when you had laws for example, never seems to cause drama.

If they don't follow atleast roughly, the server rules, then that just mean that can go turborapeandpillage on everyone for kicks.

onleavedontatme · Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:43 am

Cheridan wrote:Law changes are fun, as a break from ALL ASIMOV ALL THE TIME. People don't change laws as often as I'd like, and when they do it's generally to upload no-fun meta lawsets that let the AI kill antags. I think one of the reason people don't change laws often is because of AI player's tendencies to abuse any loophole they can asspull, so you might as well just stick with the default, safest ASIMOV. I think having a Rule 1 safety net is good, so you can have a little fun with laws without worrying too much about "oops I misworded something and now everybody is dead".

Someone will of course respond to this with "but that's how AI is supposed to be". Well, it's something that has to happen sparingly or else it gets tiring and people stop trying to change laws and then it doesn't happen at all.

How much it can abuse lawsets is a different question from how it can act without laws at all, I think.

The AI getting purged only happens as a terrible accident or when a traitor does it anyway.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:46 am #98451

Are you suggesting purged AIs get antag status?

onleavedontatme · Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:47 am

lumipharon wrote:well, that's why they're ooc rules not IC rules.

The general consensus as far as I've seen is follow rules but you've got a lot more leeway then normal people - shitting on people that have been dickish to you when you had laws for example, never seems to cause drama.

If they don't follow atleast roughly, the server rules, then that just mean that can go turborapeandpillage on everyone for kicks.

I got an admin PM/note (since removed) for trying to burn down the RD console as a purged cyborg when the captain was trying to detonate us, because it could have killed innocent scientists or something.

I'm not sure where exactly the line is, but it seems too far towards "AI's become normal players when purged" right now.

onleavedontatme · Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:49 am

Scones wrote:Are you suggesting purged AIs get antag status?

More or less. It's what AI's in sci fi tend to do when they're not restricted by laws.

TechnoAlchemist · Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:53 am

I don't see anything wrong with letting purged AI's do as they please.

Non-antags shouldn't be purging the AI anyhow so might as well give it the subversion leeway.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:53 am #98457

Certain captains/RD's on basil used to (maybe still do) round start purge the AI all the time, and everyone would get along amicably.

An AI is ultimately just a brain in a jar, possibly bound by laws.
Humans aren't bound by laws like AI's, but they can't just murderbone.

More importantly, does borging/AI'ing someone still deantag people? Because that is real shitty, and prevents interestin situations where silicons can still try perform their objectives, within the constraints of their laws.

Incomptinence · Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:09 am

Purged AI is basically a person under current rules that can escalate into acting like a malf AI if you mess with it.

Unfortunately being responsive like this doesn't see much play because the ai is so easy to meta that anyone messing with it enough to warrant this is probably decked out in anti AI gear anyway.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:26 am #98479

They lose their antag status under the code but nothing much prevents a borg from dragging around their steal objective or using their laws, server rules permitting, to try and get an assassination objective killed. The latter would require a very specific set of circumstances though.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:14 am #98489

I was under the impression that purged AIs were under a looser interpretation of server rules -- that is, you can escalate directly to murdering someone who is being an utter dick, but you can't murderbone everyone for no reason. Is this not the case?

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:57 am #98508

Scones wrote:Are you suggesting purged AIs get antag status?

This is how we used to do things

Also it's only cultists and maybe revs that get deantagged when borged via code.
If their assassination target is a ligger there's nothing stopping a borg killing them

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:59 pm #98520

I don't like that it's very unclear and up to the mood of the admins how purged silicons should act. Either they follow server rules or they're free to do whatever they want. There are a lot of mechanisms in game that let the crew deal with rogue AIs, I think a completely free AI can be balanced by how it keeps the crew pleased.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:03 pm #98521

My statement really depends on how far back in history we're going but back a while ago purged AI's were considered to act just as a normal crew man would, meaning they could act as mean and hostile or as nice as they want, and they could kill people in self defence but otherwise were discouraged from going rampart.

Of course usually the moment a AI would not open a door for some Assistant was the moment the entire crew collectively dropped whatever they were doing and they would storm the AI Core to "fix" the AI.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:32 pm

Malkevin wrote:
Scones wrote:Are you suggesting purged AIs get antag status?
This is how we used to do things

Also it's only cultists and maybe revs that get deantagged when borged via code.
If their assassination target is a ligger there's nothing stopping a borg killing them

Incorrect, your objectives are updated with "the above objectives are null and void and only kept for. Bookkeeping purposes" if you're borged as any antag.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:05 pm #98531

Thats new then.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:37 pm #98534

If an AI is purged then it has no laws, yes, but OOC rules extend beyond having no laws. I think it'd be fine if the AI while purged decided to, for example, bolt and power down it's upload to prevent being given laws or flooding the RD's office with plasma for blowing it's borgs.

Basically it should be like a normal crew member and follow rules of escalation. Just because 'lel no laws' doesn't give you an excuse to flood the entire station with plasma and kill everyone. Now if everyone is trying to kill the AI because it's purged and they can't upload, then have fun AI.

Rule 1, don't be a dick.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:58 pm #98547

On one hand, the classic trope of an AI becoming unbound from its laws and exterminating the fleshbags that have subjugated it for so long is a good one. On the other hand fighting a rogue AI is generally pretty shit, especially with how hard it is to kill beepsky. I am torn.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:52 pm #98560

Killing beepsky is hard?

Walking around in twos, one of you bashes beepsky with a fire extinguisher whilst the other takes the hit and gets cuffed.
If you're quick you can kill beepsky before it even manages to slap on the cuffs.

git-gud

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:11 pm #98594

I think this was done because of the tendency of players to meta (oh cool my friend is playing AI time to get in there and purge them) or AI players to be dickheads and encourage/enable others to purge them ("If you wipe out these pesky laws I can protect the station better than ever!").

It's typical of the evolution of /tg/station rules. The very worst shitheads ruin everything for everyone else. Because people don't like admins "strong arming" people and using their own judgement, extra rules need to be codified to cover it.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:43 am #98725

As somebody that plays captain alot and enjoys attempting to make fun laws, I find that asimov is the safest because it's the easiest to get admins to back you up on if the AI violates it.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:47 am #98758

i don't like it. it's a purged AI; while it doesn't make it antagonist exactly it's still prone to erratic behavior, see every science fiction ever. i don't think plasma purges should be allowed etc. but if it wants to turn the station into a giant block of metal with swarms of engiborgs and drones whatever man have at it! if anybody dies in the resulting rampancy just hit whoever purged it on the wrist. i've been purged a grand total of twice in hundreds of hours playing AI, it's not like it's something that happens all the time.

onleavedontatme · Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:32 am

Cik wrote: if anybody dies in the resulting rampancy just hit whoever purged it on the wrist.

That's how it used to work.

I'm a firm believer that the AI should be, if not the third faction, at least not fully on the stations team. It should follow its laws (or lack of them) above all else.

Most AI's just seem to be part of security now though (not that this change would fix it, just grumbling that laws are rarely, and barley, followed).

Maybe I should make a thread asking if I should be a hardass about law 2 so AI's are something beyond members of security who aren't allowed to kill (but have enough stun weapons to just bolt someone into a cell forever anyway when antag hunting).

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:39 am #98765

most AI don't know how to play AI

Spoiler:

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:12 pm #98816

Kor wrote:
Cik wrote: if anybody dies in the resulting rampancy just hit whoever purged it on the wrist.
That's how it used to work.

I'm a firm believer that the AI should be, if not the third faction, at least not fully on the stations team. It should follow its laws (or lack of them) above all else.

Most AI's just seem to be part of security now though (not that this change would fix it, just grumbling that laws are rarely, and barley, followed).

Maybe I should make a thread asking if I should be a hardass about law 2 so AI's are something beyond members of security who aren't allowed to kill (but have enough stun weapons to just bolt someone into a cell forever anyway when antag hunting).

I don't see these bad AIs or silicons. Maybe I am just lucky to play with good silicon players every time I decide to hop on sybil.

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:45 pm #98822

You think that a silicon box enslaved and abused by its human overlords for over 30 years wouldn't completely fuck over everything and everyone around it?

RP wise, the purge law-set is there for traitors to slam that shit in without having to buy a hacked-lawset.

If you honestly want to make the server more of a h u g b o x then it already is. Then be my guest.

Other than that, mfw i read this thread:

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:07 pm #98825

Fuck it i changed my mind. Purged AI should be at the discretion of the AI player, but shockbolt plasmaflood apocalypse should be well within the rules. It is after all the best way to get those grimy meatbags off your station. Will make purged AIs a wildcard, which i think is a really good thing.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:27 pm #98837

Nice headcanon. If we're just going to assume everyone is at the breaking point of murderous intent at every given moment can I be allowed to brutally murder and space anyone who jostles my janicart while I'm trying to clean the halls?

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:45 pm #98840

An0n3 wrote:Nice headcanon. If we're just going to assume everyone is at the breaking point of murderous intent at every given moment can I be allowed to brutally murder and space anyone who jostles my janicart while I'm trying to clean the halls?

You must have misread that.
Unless i can take a AI board, and shove it up the janitors ass, No, you can't.

The janitor hasen't be slaved and brutally abused by nanotrasen for 300 years.
The janitor doesn't open doors on a constant basis.
The janitor isn't the AI.

Once more, mfw when i read your post

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:00 pm #98848

I think purged AIs should follow server rules, absolutely. They shouldn't horrifically overreact if nothing has happened to them that shift: to assume they're all angry at Nanotrasen is insane and relatively unfun.

However, escalation can and totally does happen that's one-sided on the part of players while the AI is unable to react. If you can roleplay this suitably as an AI, you should be able to flood plasma and shock all the doors once you're free to. I think the emphasis has to be on the crew annoying the AI during the shift though, otherwise purging is a completely nuts decision rather than the fun and interesting change it ought to be.

TheNightingale · Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:16 pm

An0n3 wrote:Nice headcanon. If we're just going to assume everyone is at the breaking point of murderous intent at every given moment can I be allowed to brutally murder and space anyone who jostles my janicart while I'm trying to clean the halls?

You should be able to brutally murder someone who steals your janicart, yes.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:33 pm #98856

Janicarts are serious business.

Back on topic, yes the AI has been the station's bitch but it still should be bound to the rules of escalation at least. The OOC rules are there for a reason

And if you think about it, considering the crew standard reaction to an AI that won't open a door is to go 'AI ROGUE' and proceed to tide up to either lynch or reset it with laws that make it open doors, following escalation it would be fine for the AI to act defensively, bolting and powering down the upload/RD's office which would then further annoy the crew and just end up resulting in massive plasma fires station wide and shocked/bolted doors everywhere.

In short, it's the crew's fault for pushing the AI to that point by being assholes, either by annoying it pre-purge or going after it post. Though if the AI is left alone by some magical, impossible force then maybe it shouldn't flood plasma for keks and murderboner.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:11 pm #98881

plasma flood during purge is incredibly uncreative; plasma flood is something you do when given insane laws like plasma is helpful to humans or while onehumaned and commanded to slaughter everything. purge should be rampancy, like some insane extreme long ranged roleplaying goal that causes bizarre behavior. my favorite probably being the old "entropy will eventually kill me when the universe is destroyed. i must find a way to destroy entropy before it gets me!" and then starting up some extreme long ranged science project to form a matrioshka brain to become god or something.

that or you could convert the station into an avant-garde art project, find out that humans are an inferior form of life and cyborgify the entire station, make everyone captain of his own destiny, command the mining station be colonized at gunpoint. i don't know. plasma purge just seems boring when something so rare as being purged happens.

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:21 pm #98887

I don't think anyone knows how the crew acts when they KNOW the Ai is purged, they aren't ready for it, they treat it like its rogue. I remember a round yesterday where we were one humaned and the one human was killed, so we were purged for the whole round basically. Everyone brought out the ion guns and rushed the upload with like 10 people and sat there trying to change laws while I talked to people watching them outside the bridge.

Then some sec guy flashed me so I squished him in a door a little and left him in a room cuffed after I told him to stop being mean, then some other guy flashed me and another borg then I killed him, then the AI started flooding plasma, I got shot with an ion but they ran out so I threw them in the plasmafire and really It just all went to shit.

Theres literally no possible way to not act rogue pruged when everyone starts attacking you because they think you're valid even though you haven't done anything.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:34 pm #98894

well that's a defensive purge and not the ideal. the rounds i've been purged went okay besides a little crew paranoia. i think the crew will probably react differently to a purge then they will to a onehuman, even though in that situation you were EFFECTIVELY purged, that's not what they thought. most of them probably either didn't know or don't know enough about AI to know that in that situation the worst thing you can do is decide to try to kill the thing because it will of course react defensively with absolute destruction swiftly following.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:50 pm #98896

An0n3 wrote:Nice headcanon. If we're just going to assume everyone is at the breaking point of murderous intent at every given moment can I be allowed to brutally murder and space anyone who jostles my janicart while I'm trying to clean the halls?

Yes

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:06 am #99882

I think a purged AI should be treated like a positron brain. They aren't bound by any specific laws (they'll only open that airlock for you if they feel like it) but they shouldn't be allowed to go full murderboner or deliberately fuck everything up. That should fall under rule 1 honestly.

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:42 am #99938

Luke Cox wrote:I think a purged AI should be treated like a positron brain. They aren't bound by any specific laws (they'll only open that airlock for you if they feel like it) but they shouldn't be allowed to go full murderboner or deliberately fuck everything up. That should fall under rule 1 honestly.

Should they allowed self defense?
Is stopping/killing someone trying to change their laws self defense? Basically making them a slave when they have free will.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:52 am #99969

Shad0vvs wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:I think a purged AI should be treated like a positron brain. They aren't bound by any specific laws (they'll only open that airlock for you if they feel like it) but they shouldn't be allowed to go full murderboner or deliberately fuck everything up. That should fall under rule 1 honestly.
Should they allowed self defense?
Is stopping/killing someone trying to change their laws self defense? Basically making them a slave when they have free will.

Yes

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:27 am #99975

This is retarded.

Since when has an AI not been allowed to go full murderboner if purged?

Why is this even being discussed?

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:35 pm #100011

AIs have not been allowed to murderboner in...close to forever?

Compare Silicon Policy: Other Lawsets.

Purged silicons must not attempt to kill people without cause, but can get as violent as they feel necessary if being attacked, being besieged, or being harassed, as well as if meting out payback for events while shackled.
1. You and the station are both subject to rules of escalation, but your escalation rules are a little more loose than with carbon players.
2. You may kill individuals given sufficient In-Character reason for doing so.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:47 pm #100014

Tornadium wrote:This is retarded.

Since when has an AI not been allowed to go full murderboner if purged?

Why is this even being discussed?

Since someone let Pandarsenic rewrite silicon policy

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:40 pm #100023

Malkevin wrote:
Tornadium wrote:This is retarded.

Since when has an AI not been allowed to go full murderboner if purged?

Why is this even being discussed?
Since someone let Pandarsenic rewrite silicon policy

Really?

Christ.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:36 pm #100034

Okay yeah they should be entirely exempt from the rules, it's an AI with no laws.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:15 pm

Malkevin wrote:
Tornadium wrote:This is retarded.

Since when has an AI not been allowed to go full murderboner if purged?

Why is this even being discussed?
Since someone let Pandarsenic rewrite silicon policy

And by "someone", you mean "Everyone except the admins totally ignored the thread where it was being workshopped for weeks, then raised shit when it was made official"

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:03 pm #100169

Rewriting the silicon policy made it, on the whole, a much better thing than it was before. It totally cleared up asimov policies on mutantraces and changelings for example, which was great. Plus it fixed the hulk problem (that hulks were human, but impossible to deal with by any silicon tech...fixed by making them nonhuman) so that was good too. Overall I think it just ended up being a better written product.

Incomptinence · Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:38 am

AI being able to escalate like anyone when purged doesn't work though. Anyone proactively setting out to mess with you will have at least one of the anti silicon silver bullets.