Policy Discussion - Escalation

Locked
Tornadium
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 11:55 am
Byond Username: Tornadium

Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Tornadium » #100069

So since this thread got locked before I could reply I figure a policy discussion is a good place to continue : https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3989

Personally I feel if neither party makes absolutely no attempt to resolve the situation peacefully and continually antagonize each other then that is ENTIRELY IC escalation of conflict. It is different if one party say tries to talk some sense into the other or apologizes of course.

In the case of the above thread as an example : The clown made absolutely no attempt what so ever to cool the situation down. Instead he kept going after the Bodyguard/Captain, he knew he was fucking with them and rightfully got dunked. He knew exactly what he was getting into when he started antagonizing other members of the station. Whenever you behave this way you should void all admin protection, You can't actively fuck with another person despite being given multiple opportunities to avoid and not fuck with them, get yourself murdered and then cry like a bitch.

SS13 really shouldn't turn into "Resolve everything in Adminhelps". Seems to be more and more common on the server (Not my own opinion, judging by deachat conversations and OOC comments).

Thoughts/Opinions?
User avatar
Timbrewolf
Rarely plays
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:55 am
Byond Username: An0n3

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Timbrewolf » #100143

The problem isn't with admin intervention.

The problem is that our sec team has too many rules that prevent them from wailing on shitters and miscreants.

The admins in this situation did their jobs. TechnoAlchemist should know you can't jump to harm-batoning someone for harsh words under the current rules.

If our sec policy was more lenient to allow sec players to be a little bit more like the "Jack-booted thug" archetype we wouldn't be in this situation and more people might want to play sec officers vs. speshul snowflake HoP assigned dumbshit jobs they think can circumvent the sec rules.
Shed Wolf Numero Uno
NSFW:
Image
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by CPTANT » #100314

That particular instance you are referring to is NOT a good example of proper escalation at all.

The clown insults the captain -> harmbaton
The clown insults the captain again -> more harmbaton
The clown slips someone -> several harmbaton
clown tries to table -> more fucking harmbaton
Clown finally starts to harm back -> kill him

that's not escalation, that's bullshit.
It makes about equal sense for an officer to beat every greytider that hits them to death instead of brigging them
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
Tornadium
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 11:55 am
Byond Username: Tornadium

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Tornadium » #100316

CPTANT wrote:That particular instance you are referring to is NOT a good example of proper escalation at all.

The clown insults the captain -> harmbaton
The clown insults the captain again -> more harmbaton
The clown slips someone -> several harmbaton
clown tries to table -> more fucking harmbaton
Clown finally starts to harm back -> kill him

that's not escalation, that's bullshit.
It makes about equal sense for an officer to beat every greytider that hits them to death instead of brigging them

I'd like to point out, He's not a Security Officer.

I'll reply in more detail in a second to both posts.
callanrockslol
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:47 pm
Byond Username: Callanrockslol

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by callanrockslol » #100669

If the clown attacks someone for being beaten up for being an unoriginal unfunny douche they deserve what they get assuming they get cloned and yelled at.
The most excessive signature on /tg/station13.

Still not even at the limit after 8 fucking years.
Spoiler:
Urist Boatmurdered [Security] asks, "Why does Zol have a captain-level ID?"
Zol Interbottom [Security] says, "because"

Sergie Borris lives on in our hearts

Zaros (No id) [145.9] says, "WITH MY SUPER WIZARD POWERS I CAN TELL CALLAN IS MAD."
Anderson Conagher wrote:Callan is sense.
Errorage wrote:When I see the win vista, win 7 and win 8 hourglass cursor, it makes me happy
Cause it's a circle spinning around
I smile and make circular motions with my finger to imiatate it
petethegoat wrote:slap a comment on it and call it a feature
MisterPerson wrote:>playing
Do you think this is a game?
Gun Hog wrote:Untested code baby
oranges wrote:for some reason all our hosts turn into bohemia software communities after they implode
Malkevin wrote:I was the only one that voted for you Callan.
Miggles wrote:>centration development
>trucking
ill believe it when snakes grow arms and strangle me with them

OOC: Aranclanos: that sounds like ooc in ooc related to ic to be ooc and confuse the ic
OOC: Dionysus24779: We're nearing a deep philosophical extistential level

Admin PM from-Jordie0608: 33-Jan-2552| Warned: Is a giraffe dork ~tony abbott

OOC: Saegrimr: That wasn't a call to pray right now callan jesus christ you're fast.

OOC: Eaglendia: Glad I got to see the rise, fall, rise, and fall of Zol

OOC: Armhulenn: CALLAN
OOC: Armhulenn: YOU MELTED MY FUCKING REVOLVER
OOC: Armhulenn: AND THEN
OOC: Armhulenn: GAVE ME MELTING MELONS
OOC: Armhulenn: GOD FUCKING BLESS YOU
OOC: Armhulenn: you know what's hilarious though
OOC: Armhulenn: I melted ANOTHER TRAITOR'S REVOLVER AFTER THAT

7/8/2016 never forget
Armhulen wrote:
John_Oxford wrote:>implying im not always right
all we're saying is that you're not crag son
bandit wrote:we already have a punishment for using our code for your game, it's called using our code for your game
The evil holoparasite user I can't believe its not DIO and his holoparasite I can't believe its not Skub have been defeated by the Spacedust Crusaders, but what has been taken from the station can never be returned.

OOC: TheGel: Literally a guy in a suit with a shuttle full of xenos. That's a doozy
Malkevin

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Malkevin » #101004

CPTANT wrote:That particular instance you are referring to is NOT a good example of proper escalation at all.

The clown insults the captain -> harmbaton
The clown insults the captain again -> more harmbaton
The clown slips someone -> several harmbaton
clown tries to table -> more fucking harmbaton
Clown finally starts to harm back -> kill him

that's not escalation, that's bullshit.
It makes about equal sense for an officer to beat every greytider that hits them to death instead of brigging them
But it is escalation.

Clown could've backed off and exercised the cream pie filling it calls a brain to go "Hm... maybe I shouldn't insult the captain and give this guy more of an excuse to beat me" at any point.

But no, the parties involved in the incident separated then one of them kept coming back for more.

If Techno had gone straight to the 10 harmbatons that would be improper escalation.
If Techno had hunted down the clown and attempted to bait him so he could beat him further, that would be improper.

But what happened was that the clown ran off, later came back and effectively said "I am consenting to you continuing your previous actions, please beat me", "I am now fighting you, TO THE DEATH!"
Amelius
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 3:29 am
Byond Username: Amelius

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Amelius » #101005

CPTANT wrote:That particular instance you are referring to is NOT a good example of proper escalation at all.

The clown insults the captain -> harmbaton
The clown insults the captain again -> more harmbaton
The clown slips someone -> several harmbaton
clown tries to table -> more fucking harmbaton
Clown finally starts to harm back -> kill him
Back in the fun days, this would be two lines shorter and twice as funny, often involving slipping the clown through the harmbatons and depositing him at cloning.

I miss the old days more every day. Even the HBL nightly event blitzes.
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by oranges » #102187

Consider the following hypothetical?

The clown insults the captain -> punch
The clown insults the captain again -> more punch
The clown slips someone -> several punch
clown tries to table -> more fucking punches
Clown finally starts to harm back -> kill him

I'm fairly certain this would be considered valid escalation by most admins, so why does the tool change the rules?
User avatar
Not-Dorsidarf
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #102529

Weren't there two clowns in that incident? One doing the rudeness, a different one attacking the dude?
Image
Image
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
Actionb
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:51 am
Byond Username: Actionb

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Actionb » #103943

Unless you actively prevent the revival of the guy you just murdered due to escalation, I see no point getting the admins involved.
This isn't a fucking kindergarden. If you mess with the wrong people repeatedly and you are too retarded or too stubborn to back off, you deserve what is coming to you. In the clown case, the clown knew he could resort to ahelps if he lost - letting him ignore the common sense to just stop fucking with a heavily armed bodyguard in favour of trying to win an escalation. At any point he could have gone to security or complain to the HoP; any competent officer would have brigged and disarmed the bodyguard for assault without the captain being able to do anything about it... and keep in mind security HATES bodyguard vigilantes and will gladly help.
The bodyguard was shit himself, that's true. But boy, if you can't kill something, stop poking it.

Same goes for that hair-shaving business: if you get dunked by a bored greyshit because you shaved his hair, get robust or stop shaving... There's instant revival via defibs now, so stop whining and man up.
Again, unless your killer strips & stuffs you into a locker/spaces you, shit like this can be dealt with IC-ly via security.
User avatar
Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Oldman Robustin » #106252

I figure I'll post this in the proper thread, I'd like to see an official ruling on this.

1) Be scientist, get captain's permission to turn botany into a public science room w/ crusher, autolathe, etc.

2) Rebuild botany and get some banannium

3) Re-tile botany and a the hallway area directly below botany with banannium tiles.

4) Engineers coming along and wordlessly grabs all the tiles, shoves them in his bag, and runs as I yell for him to stop.

5) Chase him down and crit him with a fire extinguisher, he fights back but loses.

6) I collect my bananium, epipen him, and let a borg carry him to medbay a few feet away.

7) Security interviews us after the incident and tells us not to fight or steal from each other anymore, that's sec's position on our conflict.

8) He runs up to me in chapel 20 minutes later, stunprods me, cablecuffs, sprays me with a flamethrower multiple times and then drags me into maint where I die.


Case 2:

1) Working Toxins, testing different mixes for their potency.

2) After about 20 minutes a scientist comes in with a monkey and wants to light the monkey on fire. I tell him no and ignore him.

3) He sits there for 3-4 minutes begging me to light this monkey on fire in the mix room. I can't do that because it would let out a ton of hot air into the buffer zone that would then escape when the airlocks rotated... plus it would potentially ruin the hot air mix.

4) After I again refuse to burn his monkey in the mix chamber, he runs up, grabs a valve, grabs one of the fucking tanks I'm working on, and then runs toward the test site. I disarm him, get the valve back, and tell him to fuck off.

5) He just follows me back into toxins and grabs the now COMPLETED TOXINS BOMB, and runs out to the hall. I chase him and he goes north to the escape hallway, I grab a fire extinguisher on the way out and start cracking his head as he runs down the hall.

6) I only get a couple hits in before he reaches the tool storage room and uses a welder to attack me back (15 burn per hit). I win that fight and epipen/gauze him and tell the responding secborg to take him to medical but watch him since he tried to steal a bomb.

7) Captain asks about what happened too, tell my story, captain nods and walks off.

8) This dude gets released and comes sprinting into toxins and immediately starts hitting me with a wrench, I run out of the room and get a screwdriver. I've already contactied an admin about this and explaining that I'm going to kill him if he keeps this up. I go back into toxins and he's managed to once again grab the tanks I was working on and finish another bomb. I got after him with the screwdriver to the eyes and start hitting him, he throws a bomb at me. Since he grabbed a default tank with one of my mixed tanks it wasn't full potency, but the bomb was enough to kill both of us. I adminhelp about it and get "Valid, you tried to kill him" as the response.


I'm pretty adamant that both of these decisions were not correct. I'd love some clarification as to whether they were and if so, what exactly our escalation policy is.
Image
Amelius
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 3:29 am
Byond Username: Amelius

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Amelius » #106258

Oldman, I disagree with both judgements. That's killbaiting, plain and simple. Instigators can't escalate, only respond in kind. That said, the situation gets flipped on it's head if, say, the instigator is crit, thrown out, and/or deposited in medbay, then the victim attacks the instigator when he sees him again for no particular reason, then it's legitimate to kill and potentially space in self-defense.
Jacough
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:24 pm
Byond Username: Jacough

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Jacough » #106291

Malkevin wrote:
CPTANT wrote:That particular instance you are referring to is NOT a good example of proper escalation at all.

The clown insults the captain -> harmbaton
The clown insults the captain again -> more harmbaton
The clown slips someone -> several harmbaton
clown tries to table -> more fucking harmbaton
Clown finally starts to harm back -> kill him

that's not escalation, that's bullshit.
It makes about equal sense for an officer to beat every greytider that hits them to death instead of brigging them
But it is escalation.

Clown could've backed off and exercised the cream pie filling it calls a brain to go "Hm... maybe I shouldn't insult the captain and give this guy more of an excuse to beat me" at any point.

But no, the parties involved in the incident separated then one of them kept coming back for more.

If Techno had gone straight to the 10 harmbatons that would be improper escalation.
If Techno had hunted down the clown and attempted to bait him so he could beat him further, that would be improper.

But what happened was that the clown ran off, later came back and effectively said "I am consenting to you continuing your previous actions, please beat me", "I am now fighting you, TO THE DEATH!"
Did you know that if you use the stun baton without the harm intent you can just stun them without hurting them?
Image
User avatar
EndgamerAzari
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:59 am
Byond Username: EndgamerAzari
Location: Being violently sucked into a hole in the sky.

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by EndgamerAzari » #106300

Jacough wrote:Did you know that if you use the stun baton without the harm intent you can just stun them without hurting them?
But then they won't learn anything!
Spoiler:
Shaps wrote:I never thought I'd see the day where someone tried claiming the moral high ground on drinking a bottle of cough syrup
TechnoAlchemist wrote:dumb baby boo boo "i wish I enlisted then mom would be proud" ballistics.
Saegrimr wrote:
Wyzack wrote:Remove players 2016, they ruin everything they touch
IM TRYING
Saegrimr wrote:
yackemflam wrote:It's like dish washing, someone has to do it.
MAYBE IF YOU'D QUIT SHITTING ON THE PLATE WHEN YOU'RE TOO LAZY TO GET UP TO GO TO THE RESTROOM AND JUST PUT THEM IN THE FUCKING SINK WHEN YOU'RE DONE
FantasticFwoosh wrote:Zip ties are best applied on assistants and other nobodies because of the exact reason they are disposable (applies to both).
An0n3 wrote:Azari for headmin 2015
He's an admin you can trust because nobody remembers to involve him in their conspiracies.
Drynwyn wrote:hbrahlrlahrlharlahr FEATURE CREEP
ShadowDimentio wrote:Instructions too complex, spaced the clown
Akkryls wrote:I mean, we are rightfully pissed off, but let's be pissed off for the correct reasons.
Falamazeer wrote:I am sufficiently outraged for you
Maccus wrote:You look like the dad every teenage boy doesn't look forward to meeting at his girlfriend's house
nsos wrote:When I was a teen and did the inevitable trying to suck your own dick thing I managed to get the head in my mouth and I feel like the rest of my life is me being punished for that
miggles wrote:is that supposed to be a trick question or just a dumb one
cedarbridge wrote:My first idea is that everyone just stops being faggots to each other but that's not going to happen, obviously.
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Most soap operas could be improved if every scene had a greyshirt in the background hooting "GIBE DE POOSIE BOSS" all the time
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:classic style is "shit on everyone from the greatest heights, so they cannot climb high enough to shit on you"
Super Aggro Crag wrote:you can't just use meme to mean "thing I don't like" you goatherd
Saegrimr wrote:"lel just go explore make YOUR OWN fun wow do you have NO IMAGINATION back in MY DAY we used to shove twigs in our urethras and PRETENDED WE WERE KNIGHTS"
An0n3 wrote:Fucking crystal ass wind chime lookin' bitch.
Saegrimr wrote:It should be common sense but this is /tg/.
User avatar
Arete
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:55 am
Byond Username: Arete

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Arete » #106317

Amelius wrote:Instigators can't escalate, only respond in kind.
I don't think this is currently a rule, but it probably should be.

The problem with that, of course, is that sometimes it's difficult to say who exactly the instigator is.
TheNightingale
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:07 pm
Byond Username: TheNightingale

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by TheNightingale » #106322

Arete wrote:
Amelius wrote:Instigators can't escalate, only respond in kind.
I don't think this is currently a rule, but it probably should be.

The problem with that, of course, is that sometimes it's difficult to say who exactly the instigator is.
The instigator is the first person to be an ass to the other. If we can't stop people being asses for no raisin, we can at least work out who the bigger ass is.
Jacough
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:24 pm
Byond Username: Jacough

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Jacough » #106373

Arete wrote:
Amelius wrote:Instigators can't escalate, only respond in kind.
I don't think this is currently a rule, but it probably should be.

The problem with that, of course, is that sometimes it's difficult to say who exactly the instigator is.
Kind of is already
Murder is justifiable as long as it was properly escalated. You can’t go from a single rude punch to a knife in the neck. You can, however, go from a single punch to a counter punch to a brawl to using weapons, and so on. Other IC justifications may exist for murder, but these are on a case by case basis. Minor aggravations like demotions, pranks, insults, or thefts are not adequate justification.
Image
User avatar
John_Oxford
Github User
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:19 am
Byond Username: John Oxford
Github Username: JohnOxford
Location: The United States of America

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by John_Oxford » #106415

Just pointing out, slightly off topic.
We only really need 3 rules. Assuming the admins don't ban everyone for doing anything.
1. Don't be a dick ( Everything else )
2. Don't use your dick (No ERP)
3. Don't have a dick that breaks the laws of physics. (No Explot/bug abusing)
Bill Rowe - Used for everything // SYS-OP - AI // SYS-USR - Cyborg
https://gyazo.com/07cbe7219ba24366c1f655ad6c56a524

Signature Content:
Spoiler:
Offical In-Game rank:
Image

Image

Image

Image
TechnoAlchemist wrote:you where always right john, you where always right
>implying the admin conspiracy wasen't just confirmed by a admin.
see, i told you motherfuckers.
NikNakFlak wrote:this isn't a game you can't just post whenever you want
I don't even know what the fuck tg is.

Image

Image
User avatar
DemonFiren
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 pm
Byond Username: DemonFiren

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by DemonFiren » #106459

So lesbian ERP is permissible?
Excellent!
Image
Image
Image
ImageImageImageImageImage

non-lizard things:
Spoiler:
Image
TheNightingale
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:07 pm
Byond Username: TheNightingale

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by TheNightingale » #106491

Jacough wrote:
Murder is justifiable as long as it was properly escalated. You can’t go from a single rude punch to a knife in the neck. You can, however, go from a single punch to a counter punch to a brawl to using weapons, and so on. Other IC justifications may exist for murder, but these are on a case by case basis. Minor aggravations like demotions, pranks, insults, or thefts are not adequate justification.
That means you (the instigator) can walk up to someone (the victim) and punch them; they punch back; you can then repeatedly punch and chokehold them, loot their things, stab out their eyes with a screwdriver and leave them outside medbay.

This isn't entirely a good thing.

Amelius's proposal of 'no escalation by the instigator' means you can't do that third stage of taking their stuff and poking their eyes out. They could, on the other hand, and if they did you could respond in kind (but not by killing them, because that's a bit worse than putting them in critical state).
Void Slayer
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:44 pm
Byond Username: Void Slayer

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Void Slayer » #106628

TheNightingale wrote:
Jacough wrote:
Murder is justifiable as long as it was properly escalated. You can’t go from a single rude punch to a knife in the neck. You can, however, go from a single punch to a counter punch to a brawl to using weapons, and so on. Other IC justifications may exist for murder, but these are on a case by case basis. Minor aggravations like demotions, pranks, insults, or thefts are not adequate justification.
That means you (the instigator) can walk up to someone (the victim) and punch them; they punch back; you can then repeatedly punch and chokehold them, loot their things, stab out their eyes with a screwdriver and leave them outside medbay.

This isn't entirely a good thing.

Amelius's proposal of 'no escalation by the instigator' means you can't do that third stage of taking their stuff and poking their eyes out. They could, on the other hand, and if they did you could respond in kind (but not by killing them, because that's a bit worse than putting them in critical state).
There is also an element where this kind of behavior might be okay in a one off instance, but if you make a habit of valid hunting escalations you instigate it should be ban able.

This is where admin notes are really useful so they can see if this was just a one off thing they should warn is crossing into a bad area or ban and let them explain on the forums.


Also Oldman, the second example you gave is total bullshit, he escalated the situation against the ENTIRE CREW by detonating a bomb, to prevent his death, which happened ANYWAY. There would be no justification for that.
User avatar
Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Oldman Robustin » #106864

Case #2 was decided by the Headmin (Kor) on at the time, basically "well you tried to kill him so valid".

If "no escalation by the instigator" isn't part of the policy, it needs to be. I mean it's really common sense. Same principle as killbaiting.

You don't get to set up the circumstances for someone to try and kill you and then:

1) Try to get them banned (killbaiting)

2) Kill them first

#1 isn't allowed, it follows that #2 shouldn't either.
Image
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by CPTANT » #106870

How does escalation apply to security?

Case 1:

Yesterday I had someone who started to bash me with a fire exinquisher for "attacking his friend" who I cuffed for a search. He got off 3 hits before I tased his ass and put him in the gulag for 500 points. He completes the sentence and I don't see him again until the shuttle comes. He is arrested for something else and runs away cuffed, I retrieve him and decide he is not worth the hassle and release the cuffs in the shuttle. He then proceeds to bash me several times with an exinquisher again.

Can I throw people like that into space without questions asked? Or is everyone going to scream shitcurity again if I do that.

Case 2:

I gulag someone for greytide shit and screaming shitcurity stuff all the time for 500 points. When I try to leave he immediately recalls the labour shuttle and I end up on the gulag again. The moment I step out of the shuttle he tries to disarm me to grab my baton. He fails and I stun his ass.

Can I beat him into a pulp?
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
Amelius
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 3:29 am
Byond Username: Amelius

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Amelius » #106883

CPTANT wrote:How does escalation apply to security?

Case 1:

Yesterday I had someone who started to bash me with a fire exinquisher for "attacking his friend" who I cuffed for a search. He got off 3 hits before I tased his ass and put him in the gulag for 500 points. He completes the sentence and I don't see him again until the shuttle comes. He is arrested for something else and runs away cuffed, I retrieve him and decide he is not worth the hassle and release the cuffs in the shuttle. He then proceeds to bash me several times with an exinquisher again.

Can I throw people like that into space without questions asked? Or is everyone going to scream shitcurity again if I do that.
It's probably good practice to ask the HoS / Captain if they're around or will listen, but yeah, once someone is on their second or third chance after actual assault with a lethal weapon, you're pretty free to throw someone out an airlock, especially in a code red situation where you can 100% legitimately murder them in the halls if they try to robust you with a fire extinguisher. Also, someone calling 'ROGUE SEC' etc. makes you instavalid, or at least used to.
CPTANT wrote: Case 2:

I gulag someone for greytide shit and screaming shitcurity stuff all the time for 500 points. When I try to leave he immediately recalls the labour shuttle and I end up on the gulag again. The moment I step out of the shuttle he tries to disarm me to grab my baton. He fails and I stun his ass.

Can I beat him into a pulp?
You can definitely beat him up, but you probably shouldn't kill him, but I doubt anyone would blame you, and competent admins would probably just laugh at the greytider if they AHd.
User avatar
Saegrimr
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
Byond Username: Saegrimr

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Saegrimr » #106947

Amelius wrote:but yeah, once someone is on their second or third chance after actual assault with a lethal weapon, you're pretty free to throw someone out an airlock, especially in a code red situation where you can 100% legitimately murder them in the halls if they try to robust you with a fire extinguisher. Also, someone calling 'ROGUE SEC' etc. makes you instavalid, or at least used to.
If you have the ability to stun and restrain them, do so. Or better yet ahelp people like that who think they can just bonk their problems with sec away so I can direct them somewhere else with "kind words". With being on the escape shuttle proper protocol is awful hard to follow in the chaos so if the airlock is easier, whatever. I certainly wouldn't care if I saw those attack logs after an ahelp.

Someone yelling ROGUE SEC doesn't let you go find them and space them, sorry, although pending more of these "low rules" rounds coming up this might change. Feel free to max their timers or throw them in perma if they're screaming that on the way to the brig, but I doubt giving legitimacy to their rogue sec claims will help you at all in the long run.
Also from the rules "-If a person is intentionally fucking with security is yelling "rogue sec" or something similar, adminhelp it. This can be punished with a rule 1 violation ban."

If shit is happening to the point you're at code red, don't take shit from them. The announcement even tells them to not fuck around or they'll just be beaten on the spot.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
User avatar
Not-Dorsidarf
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #106987

Saegrimr wrote:
Amelius wrote:but yeah, once someone is on their second or third chance after actual assault with a lethal weapon, you're pretty free to throw someone out an airlock, especially in a code red situation where you can 100% legitimately murder them in the halls if they try to robust you with a fire extinguisher. Also, someone calling 'ROGUE SEC' etc. makes you instavalid, or at least used to.
If you have the ability to stun and restrain them, do so. Or better yet ahelp people like that who think they can just bonk their problems with sec away so I can direct them somewhere else with "kind words". With being on the escape shuttle proper protocol is awful hard to follow in the chaos so if the airlock is easier, whatever. I certainly wouldn't care if I saw those attack logs after an ahelp.

Someone yelling ROGUE SEC doesn't let you go find them and space them, sorry, although pending more of these "low rules" rounds coming up this might change. Feel free to max their timers or throw them in perma if they're screaming that on the way to the brig, but I doubt giving legitimacy to their rogue sec claims will help you at all in the long run.
Also from the rules "-If a person is intentionally fucking with security is yelling "rogue sec" or something similar, adminhelp it. This can be punished with a rule 1 violation ban."

If shit is happening to the point you're at code red, don't take shit from them. The announcement even tells them to not fuck around or they'll just be beaten on the spot.
The problem is, that mindset breaks down if they actually are an antag instead of a shithead. Because they wont stop and the meta-bubble of "Can't kill this guy, he might not be an antag" will get you killed.
Image
Image
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
User avatar
Saegrimr
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
Byond Username: Saegrimr

Re: Policy Discussion - Escalation

Post by Saegrimr » #107048

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:The problem is, that mindset breaks down if they actually are an antag instead of a shithead. Because they wont stop and the meta-bubble of "Can't kill this guy, he might not be an antag" will get you killed.
Them being an antag or not doesn't change how you handle a situation, unless they're coming at you with an esword or something. You'd have to be a pretty shitty traitor to just run up to sec in the halls and start bashing them with a fire extinguisher in multiple attempts.

If they come back for more after that, its fair game. Even if an admin didn't get back to you in time. Its a weird line because security is expected to just stun and brig these kinds of shitters because they're much more well-armed so the normal rules of escalation get all fucky for people who are looking for valids.. HENCE THE POINT OF THIS THREAD I GUESS. ┐('~`;)┌
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users