Shredding Security Policy

Stickymayhem · Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:10 pm

So one of the most interesting things we learned from the Low Rules rounds was that even with the station in total chaos, security is infinitely more fun with lower restrictions. Much lower restrictions.

I'm tempted to replace all of security policy with a simple rule about sticking together and having your partners backs, and consequently removing some anti-greytiding rules to even things out a bit. Far more effective than OOC punishment is immediate and harsh IC punishment. When you table a cop and try to take his shit then get immediately kicked to death by his three buddies it tends to be a better disincentive than finding out you're going to be banned for a day at the end of the round.

This is controversial as fuck I'm sure, and I don't think we can go as drastic as removing it entirely, but I wouldn't mind security basically being a strong group of thugs led by the HoS who can kind of choose how his department will be that day. You can do brutal crackdowns until the station revolts, or be as nicecurity as you want.

I really liked the greytide and security testing each other to kind of see how the round would be. Security would make big shows of force to show damn well that greytiding would get you a hiding and then chill out having established their authority, or tiders would poke at the brig to see how competent they were that round and punish them if they weren't.

Security was packed on every round like this and I think it would be again if this was implement.

So discuss what absolutely essential components of the policy we need to hold on to and problems that will probably come up.

This is just a discussion for now.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:19 pm #105822

Sadly I was not on to participate during the low rule events so I can't speak from experience.

The only area of concern I can immediately call up is to ensure at minimum the security chain of command remains in place, effectively the HoS is the commander and the Warden has command in the brig.

Of course if some officer is getting to uppity I'm sure under a gutted sec policy the HoS could just toss him into a jail cell to cool off.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:26 pm #105823

Low rules security in 95% of cases results in lower casualties in security as a result of trying to do your job properly and not get banned.

So yeah, do it.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:32 pm #105826

I look forward to endless hours of tornadium posting

Stickymayhem · Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:36 pm

As an addendum to a new lower ruleset Tornadium will be pre-emptively banned from all security rules permanently.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:38 pm #105830

Why would I be consistently posting, maybe to approve I guess.

Stickymayhem · Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:38 pm

Steelpoint wrote:Sadly I was not on to participate during the low rule events so I can't speak from experience.

The only area of concern I can immediately call up is to ensure at minimum the security chain of command remains in place, effectively the HoS is the commander and the Warden has command in the brig.

Of course if some officer is getting to uppity I'm sure under a gutted sec policy the HoS could just toss him into a jail cell to cool off.

This would be the main thing I'd retain yeah. Security should be a group following the HoS. The HoS deals with the most shit but gets to decide the flavour of the department for the round,

Stickymayhem · Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:39 pm

Tornadium wrote:Why would I be consistently posting, maybe to approve I guess.

Dunno I just think it would be funny if Security Policy was just:

1. Look out for other security personnel
2. Obey the chain of command within the brig
3. Tornadium isn't allowed to play security.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:47 pm #105838

Stickymayhem wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Why would I be consistently posting, maybe to approve I guess.
Dunno I just think it would be funny if Security Policy was just:

1. Look out for other security personnel
2. Obey the chain of command within the brig
3. Tornadium isn't allowed to play security.

But then you'd miss all the fun of me being in IRC?

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:59 pm #105843

Do it do it do it do it do it do it do it

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:33 pm #105872

+1. That's basically how it was a year and a half ago. I dislike OOC punishment for a variety of reasons that most other people probably do too, so anything that lets security handle things in a straightforward, IC sense without having 'ADMINS, HELP! THE HoS IS EXECUTING ME WITHOUT CAPTAIN PERMISSION DESPITE THE FACT THAT I TRIED TO KILL HIM!' is a godsend.

Make it a poll, if you will.

TheNightingale · Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:41 pm

I like the idea of Security being able to work properly, but...

Stickymayhem wrote: consequently removing some anti-greytiding rules to even things out a bit

This part worries me a little. Greytide rules are too lax as it is; you can easily walk up to someone and stun-cuff-strip them because you want their stuff, without being punished. Leaving the punishing to Security works fine sometimes, but not always.

How about... if the cops are after you and you're a non-antag, you can't fight back? No disarming the officer trying to arrest you, no slipping them on water-filled pest sprays, just running away peacefully.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:42 pm #105877

Release the redtide.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:42 pm #105878

Anything to be able to tell greytiders to suck it up and deal with it rather than having to bwoink sec about petty shit.

Please keep the chain of command going for executions though, at least up to the HoS so we don't have sec just throwing the clown out an airlock for trespassing.

Stickymayhem wrote: consequently removing some anti-greytiding rules to even things out a bit

Fuck this though.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:42 pm #105879

Why obey the chain of command in the brig only?

2: Obey the chain of command, period (unless a mutiny to overthrow an incompetent superior is agreed upon by the majority of fellow Security staff.)

Not sure if we should write it down that the Warden has no authority on officers outside the brig, but is in line for acting HoS.

Also, if the cops are after you because you started shit as non-antag. Be specific, ffs.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:43 pm #105880

TheNightingale wrote:How about... if the cops are after you, you can't fight back? No disarming the officer trying to arrest you, no slipping them on water-filled pest sprays, just running away peacefully.

No. Already you CAN fight back if security is 'after you', via non-injuring means (cuffing, disarming, slipping). Especially in the mid-lategame where 'security' can easily be lings/traitors/not actually security.

That would be just further restriction, which is the opposite direction as we want to go.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:11 pm #105891

Stickymayhem wrote:When you table a cop and try to take his shit then get immediately kicked to death by his three buddies it tends to be a better disincentive than finding out you're going to be banned for a day at the end of the round.

How certain are you about this part? From here, it looks like there are a lot of players who fully plan on connecting to the server, fucking with people until they get brigged, then going braindead while they occupy themselves with other things until next round.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:34 pm #105905

Stickymayhem wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Why would I be consistently posting, maybe to approve I guess.
Dunno I just think it would be funny if Security Policy was just:

1. Look out for other security personnel
2. Obey the chain of command within the brig
3. Tornadium isn't allowed to play security.

Could we also double ban deathhoof? I know he's perma'd but let's just cover our bases.

But seriously, I late joined AND COULDN'T JOIN SECURITY!!!
This was an amazing enough event in and of itself to justify further investigation.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:27 pm #105921

the crimson tide

sirnat · Post by **sirnat** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:18 pm #105939

I played as a HoS one of these rounds and had security actually spread out on the station in pairs, was a good round,. Dealt with alot of shitters trying to attack me on the escape shuttle, to take my laser, felt good to beable to kick their shit in.

Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:27 pm

Yes. Security policy making them unable to do anything without getting banned has been shit for ages, and allowing more lenience in what they're able to do is what I think we've needed for ages. Fund it

onleavedontatme · Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:51 pm

I'd be happy to give security more leeway in dealing with lawbreakers, but I wouldn't go so far as to toss out every extra rule they have.

An assistant stealing your ID or the clown slipping people and not getting banned is way different than the HoS running around robbing people at random.

The IC response to minor shit is "call security then" but that doesn't really work if security is the one griefing.

That and trying the other way of resolving things IC (violence) will just mean a permabrigging. They should still be held to a slightly higher standard as far as random unprovoked grief goes.

But yeah, sure, space all the greytiders you want.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:01 pm #105964

This is a good policy, I think. Just don't allow powergaming.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:12 pm #105967

removing some anti-greytiding rules to even things out a bit.

Eh, I'm a little iffy on this part.

Stirring up a mob and trying to break into the brig because security kicked your teeth in after you tried to grab a suspect they were arresting for no reason other than"whoo anarchy! Fuck the police!" should definitely be considered a firm no. Trying to lynch or harass the entire security force just because a single officer is being shit shouldn't be acceptable either. On the other hand, if security is going full blown shitcurity with multiple officers robbing suspects and keeping their gear with no intervention from the warden or HoS, publicly executing handfuls of crew members, beating people in the halls for petty shit and killing borgs for trying to prevent them from beating people in the halls, etc. then yeah, viva la revolucion.

Basically grey tiding should be a last resort when dealing with corrupt security teams. It should be allowed when a huge portion of security is being absolute shit and neither the HoS or captain can not or will not make the team get their shit straight.

Incomptinence · Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:52 pm

One thing I found very interesting when security restrictions were lower (not event long ago) was basically having fake moral conflicts when how nice or mean I was being misaligned with my commanders.

Not sure about warden but hos being able to have you executed was probably more integral to his presence in the round than his armor. Captains get distracted the hos is right there waiting to dole out death or mercy all the time they were very imposing.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:56 pm #105982

Stickymayhem wrote:So one of the most interesting things we learned from the Low Rules rounds was that even with the station in total chaos, security is infinitely more fun with lower restrictions. Much lower restrictions..

You mean the thing I've been yelling for years only to be called a crazy old man with crazy ideas actually turned out to be true? You mean... I was right?

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:58 pm #105983

I don't think anyone called you crazy, it's just that we couldn't change it even if we wanted to at the time.

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

I'd be wary of not allowing some greytiding against security.

One of the main balance points of security is that they are restricted by rules but have superior equipment, organization and numbers. Remove the rules and they become unstoppable in most gamemodes.

Also you need to be sure people won't be scared to rage against the machine if security decide to be cunts that round.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:49 pm #106007

Does this mean antag sec too? It should.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:54 pm #106008

Removing rules against greytide and having antag sec probably won't work out well.

It'll just end up with a bunch of nerds crying that sec is killing them when they're just getting arrested and riling up the greytide, or antag sec gets a free pass at dragging people off to their murder cave because of all the boys crying wolf.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:57 pm #106011

Do officers still need execution permission?

Also, please don't just remove all antigreytide policy, people are really really good at it, and it's incredibly fun for the tide, so it's going to happen again and again under the lightest of excuses, And sec antag has been a great boon, now that it's fixed to not eliminate officers from the pool entirely and you can still roll it in another job.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:57 pm #106012

These are my personal guidelines for playing HoS

If somebody commits a minor to moderate crime and there is no evidence that they're an antag, they are brigged accordingly
If somebody is caught with suspicious items (cable restraints, stun prods, potentially dangerous items they shouldn't have), they get a lethal chem implant
People who get consistently brigged throughout the round go in perma
Murderers and antagonists immediately go into perma, and I seek authorization from the captain to execute
Anybody who attacks security officers without provocation goes straight to perma
Greytiders are tortured mercilessly
AI laws permitting, all executions are public. Much more fun that way

A lot of the rules restricting security seem unnecessary. So long as you aren't killing or putting innocent people in perma, you're good.

Amnestik · Post by **Amnestik** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:03 am #106014

Both security and the greytiders were really shitty in the low rules round I played, so this seems like a pretty dumb idea.

It was absolute chaos and nobody had time to treat other people fairly, so everyone was fucking everyone else over. This is fun occasionally, but it gets wearisome after awhile.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:15 am #106018

>luke cox still does not know how chem implants are unreliable

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:37 am #106021

Scones wrote:>luke cox still does not know how chem implants are unreliable

I know, you can remove them surgically or counteract the effects of the chloral. I've been considering switching to another toxin and telling them it's still chloral. Sometimes, if they seem especially sketchy, I'll pop in a tracking implant too.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:43 am #106025

Luke Cox wrote:
Scones wrote:>luke cox still does not know how chem implants are unreliable
I know, you can remove them surgically or counteract the effects of the chloral. I've been considering switching to another toxin and telling them it's still chloral. Sometimes, if they seem especially sketchy, I'll pop in a tracking implant too.

However, if the subject suffers from malnutrition,
the implant may become unstable and either pre-maturely inject the subject or simply break

For some reason you couldn't be arsed to read the implant description but that's why they are unreliable.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:50 am #106028

Scones wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:
Scones wrote:>luke cox still does not know how chem implants are unreliable
I know, you can remove them surgically or counteract the effects of the chloral. I've been considering switching to another toxin and telling them it's still chloral. Sometimes, if they seem especially sketchy, I'll pop in a tracking implant too.

However, if the subject suffers from malnutrition,
the implant may become unstable and either pre-maturely inject the subject or simply break
For some reason you couldn't be arsed to read the implant description but that's why they are unreliable.

True, I forgot about that. Still, what else am I supposed to do? It's not perfect but it's better than nothing.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:58 am #106053

I've brought up that description thing before, and elite codermen have informed me that the description is purely fluff, and that chem implants can't randomly go off/fail.
I've never bothered to checkthe code however.

callanrockslol · Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:14 am

We should do this just so all the people that are advocating it will get a taste of how awful no rules sec was.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:21 am #106078

You must be joking Callan.

This server has always had the noose on security since I started at least, which is as close to always as it gets.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:34 am #106080

We only added anti-greytide rules to offset the restrictions security got. As in, security was held to a much higher standard, but players were expected to not give them shit on top of that.

If we're leveling the playing field here in terms of restrictions neither party needs as much admin protection. It's griff or be griffed.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:09 am #106149

Ikarrus wrote:We only added anti-greytide rules to offset the restrictions security got. As in, security was held to a much higher standard, but players were expected to not give them shit on top of that.

If we're leveling the playing field here in terms of restrictions neither party needs as much admin protection. It's griff or be griffed.

So, when did those anti-greytide rules ever get enforced?

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:26 am #106172

I can think of a few incidents this past week where people have ahelped being perma'd or gulag'd for fucking with sec and the admin response has been some variant of 'deal with it'.

You can stop playing the victim now.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:39 am #106174

I don't think sec shoudl just harmbaton every greytider to death when they first encounter them.

I mainly think sec should be able to enforce a zero tolerance policy against people attacking them in a cell/gulag.

I also think there should be zero tolerance for repeated assault against officer (and repeated is twice).

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:47 am #106177

imblyings wrote:I can think of a few incidents this past week where people have ahelped being perma'd or gulag'd for fucking with sec and the admin response has been some variant of 'deal with it'.

You can stop playing the victim now.

I'll admit the last few weeks have been better.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:14 pm #106214

I don't really think this has to be done in conjunction with removal of the anti-grey tiding rules.

Do what goon does and have the assistant ruling of "don't be a shitler" be used.

Void Slayer · Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:43 am

This might be a good area to start testing out a low rule system, since it involves some of the most difficult areas of interaction. Here or with the AI.

I know my normal manner of playing sec is to ensure everyone arrested get's a fair hearing and that any serious punishment is based on real evidence.

The obey chain of command thing should be something like, obey reasonable orders.

HoS orders you to jump into a raging fire? Kill and space someone for scribbling on the floors? Release a murder-boning changeling? Fuck no.

Incomptinence · Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:24 am

It takes more than one interaction to determine someone as a greytider. They are typified by their single minded determination in causing trouble, a normal man will wait out a short sentence a tider will try and destroy the cell as much as they can to screw with you.

I say more than one interaction but it is usually one arrest, the secondary interactions can be observed once they are cuffed and are pretty rote.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:32 pm #107073

I want see this. I still have misgivings on the anti-greytide part, but my views on that have already been voiced.

However, I can see this allowing you guys to figure out the best regulations. Maybe ease back in the extra rules that make sense IF they are needed after all.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:11 pm #107080

Incomptinence wrote:It takes more than one interaction to determine someone as a greytider. They are typified by their single minded determination in causing trouble, a normal man will wait out a short sentence a tider will try and destroy the cell as much as they can to screw with you.

I say more than one interaction but it is usually one arrest, the secondary interactions can be observed once they are cuffed and are pretty rote.

I disagree with that bit about fucking around in the cell, I enjoy jittering around, frothing at the mouth and trying to smash lights ineffectively with a jumpsuit to screw with officers, It's harmless dicking around, I typically play security, and I know where the line is drawn, and if you wanna try to draw it at fucking about then you're probably a bit too thin skinned anyways. Smashing your way out and leaving a big hole on the other hand, over a two minute sentence, you got a good point.

Knocking constantly to badger people is also kinda funny, just don't use the justified sec reaction to justify being a further douchebag unless it's gonna be along the same vein of heckling, littering, and cursing.