/tg/Station 13

Or properly, how do you feel about the statement:

Keeping hulks human is bad because it protects hulk griefers, hulk antags, hulk validhunters, and hulk idiots, none of whom deserve it, and only from nonantag Asimov AIs

Strongly Disagree
Disagree
Neutral/Ambivalent/Don't Know
Agree
Strongly Agree

Leaving vote-change enabled for anyone who has trouble with simple English like the above. Your votes will be accounted for, but the primary value of this thread will be in rational, calm discussion, or I will slice you with a box cutter. Votes without explanation will be observed, but not given as high regard.

Background: While hulks have traditionally been considered humans, for some time they were not, now they are again. As the final step before implementing the "Follow Your Goddamned Laws" Silicon Policy Update ( http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf ) is resolving the argument about whether hulks ought to be considered human to an Asimov AI.

This means that posts which are off-topic for certain reasons will be deleted or edited to be blank save for an indication of their SHAMEFUL STATUS:

• Arguing about the background of whether hulks have been human. I explained it above and if anyone else says "hulks have always been nonhuman" or whatever, they're wrong, besides which that wouldn't matter. See the next point.
• Stating that hulks have always been human. We know. Nobody cares. Appeal to Tradition is not a valid argument. Yeah, they were always human, and for 800 years bloodletting was a popular medical practice.
• Arguing about whether Asimov should be the default lawset. Not the place for it.
• Trying to remove secborgs. Not the place for it.
• Situations in which the AI or Cyborg in question is subverted or an antagonist. They do not care about human status; therefore, arguments such as that hulks "counter silicons" are nonsensical.
• Whining about the poll's wording. Deal with it.
• Possibly more if people find shitty posts to make that I didn't think to forbid

As has been said before, Hulk Human status only protects Hulk griefers and punishes Asimov Silicons. I'll expand my thoughts when I get to my computer but suffice to say Hulks being non-human is fair.

Being hulked is almost always an optional choice you bring upon yourself if the AI/sec decides to put you down, which you usually deserve. If not, ahelp, because rule 1 still applies to all players anyway you fat nasty trash.

I would suggest doing it the same way as I recall mutant races being treated, IE they're non-human, but they're protected by rule 1 until they start harming humans.

Thunder11 wrote:I would suggest doing it the same way as I recall mutant races being treated, IE they're non-human, but they're protected by rule 1 until they start harming humans.

That's the exact proposal. Well, more of that if they make themselves nuisances in any way but yelling over radio (let's smash a bunch of walls everywhere! Let's break into the armory!) the silicons can relieve them of their hulk mutation. Violently.

Hulk is extremely powerful, useful, and easily widespread. Having it remove human immunity from the AI is an excellent trade-off that makes good sense and game balance.

Virology Hulk, on the other hand, is a strange situation. Is a human non-human for the ten seconds he turns into a hulk? What if he turns back just as a silicon is harmbatoning him? Is a silicon punished for accidentally hitting a human?

Stickymayhem wrote:Is a human non-human for the ten seconds he turns into a hulk? What if he turns back just as a silicon is harmbatoning him? Is a silicon punished for accidentally hitting a human?

If a virohulk manages to get into enough trouble with the law/silicons to invite a harmbaton in that short of a time period, I'm impressed. I would also tentatively classify that under "Hulk idiots."

That virology symptom is overpowered and should be fixed anyway. Either removed or give disabilities as well as superpowers.

No because the whole point of virology is to give you good symptoms while filtering out disabilities (if you do your job right).

Plus, random powers can be a serious disability some times. Have a taser, sneaking up on someone, whip it out, lolhulkcan'tshoot and you didn't even notice you turned hulk because you had a gas mask on gloves on? Happened to me on more than one occassion. Or you try to stun someone and they turn hulk. It's a disability and a good symptom, which is the best kind of viro symptom. The effects should last a bit less though, very short bursts means you'll have to keep track of what you have and such.

Also if it gets to the point where Viro symptoms are getting to obnoxious to deal with, then make the CMO do their actual job and reign in the Virologist, or arrest the Viro.

paprika wrote:No because the whole point of virology is to give you good symptoms while filtering out disabilities (if you do your job right).

Why don't we give the symptom that makes you invulnerable to all damage and makes your punches instantly kill.

I mean, if that's you think the point of virology is.

paprika wrote:Plus, random powers can be a serious disability some times. Have a taser, sneaking up on someone, whip it out, lolhulkcan'tshoot and you didn't even notice you turned hulk because you had a gas mask on gloves on?

Oh my God, you probably killed yourself out of frustration after that. Horrible, just horrible. How can we ever live with something like that.
I even found a quote to describe this:

paprika wrote:When has it ever been a problem anywhere but security.

paprika wrote:Or you try to stun someone and they turn hulk.

That's supposed to be a negative trait?

paprika wrote:It's a disability and a good symptom, which is the best kind of viro symptom.

It's not, that's what I'm proposing to fix.

They meant the whole "ready to shoot, cant because 'lolhulk'" thing.

Stickymayhem wrote:Hulk is extremely powerful, useful, and easily widespread. Having it remove human immunity from the AI is an excellent trade-off that makes good sense and game balance.

I feel this sums it up pretty well.

Hulks are non-human because of the points brought up above - Notably, it being a willing, knowing decision, protecting idiots/griefers/validers is bad, and balance.

Hulks are stun immune, which means the only way for silicons to deal with a rogue hulk is harming them until they aren't a hulk anymore - However, this directly contradicts their default lawset. If you make hulks non-human, it's fine now.

Pandarsenic wrote:This means that posts which are off-topic for certain reasons will be deleted or edited to be blank save for an indication of their SHAMEFUL STATUS:

• Arguing about the background of whether hulks have been human. I explained it above and if anyone else says "hulks have always been nonhuman" or whatever, they're wrong, besides which that wouldn't matter. See the next point.
• Stating that hulks have always been human. We know. Nobody cares. Appeal to Tradition is not a valid argument. Yeah, they were always human, and for 800 years bloodletting was a popular medical practice.
  
• Arguing about whether Asimov should be the default lawset. Not the place for it.
• Trying to remove secborgs. Not the place for it.
• Situations in which the AI or Cyborg in question is subverted or an antagonist. They do not care about human status; therefore, arguments such as that hulks "counter silicons" are nonsensical.
• Whining about the poll's wording. Deal with it.
• Possibly more if people find shitty posts to make that I didn't think to forbid

YOU FORGOT THE PART WHERE I SAID IF WE MAKE THEM NON-HUMAN, THEN PEOPLE CAN ARGUE STUFF LIKE WIZARDS ARE NON-HUMAN WHICH IS A VALID POINT yo i had caps on

Ok, more seriously, I think hulks should be non-human. Shitty hulks who destroy everything in their wake are just plain awful.

420goslingboy69 wrote: YOU FORGOT THE PART WHERE I SAID IF WE MAKE THEM NON-HUMAN, THEN PEOPLE CAN ARGUE STUFF LIKE WIZARDS ARE NON-HUMAN WHICH IS A VALID POINT yo i had caps on

In logic and critical thinking, a slippery slope is a logical device, but is usually known under its fallacious form in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any rational argument or demonstrable mechanism for the inevitability of the event in question. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process that leads to the significant effect. The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B. Modern usage avoids the fallacy by acknowledging the possibility of this middle ground.

Except wizards being non-human is also a pretty popular discussed thing too.

Wizard is not a race, are you stupid

Wizard is a class

Elf wizard

Human wizard

Orc wizard

omg don't you know anything

Mutate won't be as easy mode though. Which is arguably a good thing.

But hulks arent a race either.
Human Hulk lvl 5 Geneticist branch

^^^

If you make Wizards non-human, you should make Nuke Ops non-human. And cultists too why not. Heck just set default to Corporate.
Wizards are human, undebatably.


Hulks are a demi-human, really. Much like Slime people, lizardmen, and the like. They're not strictly human, but are usually afforded the same basic rights as a human; They're silicon-valid, but shockbolting them in because of it is poor form.

Pandarsenic wrote: [*]Stating that hulks have always been human. We know. Nobody cares. Appeal to Tradition is not a valid argument. Yeah, they were always human, and for 800 years bloodletting was a popular medical practice.

So, what you're saying is that we're getting leeches soon?

In total seriousness though, hulks shouldn't count as human. Visually, they don't look human (ie; green skin, huge muscles, probably way taller). They don't usually behave like a typical human (more lore-wise) and , really all their classification of human is good for is grief protection.

I'm in favour of hulks as non-human

420goslingboy69 wrote:But hulks arent a race either.
Human Hulk lvl 5 Geneticist branch

Dude what

A hulk is a green muscle monster

A wizard is a dude who wears robes

This shouldn't need explaining.

Wizards shouldn't get AI protection by default since they can VERY easily subvert or steal it. There will probably be another discussion on this following the hulk discussion depending on what the official policy turns out.

paprika wrote:Wizards shouldn't get AI protection by default since they can VERY easily subvert or steal it. There will probably be another discussion on this following the hulk discussion depending on what the official policy turns out.

STOP
STOP STOP STOP
LETTING THE AI VALIDHUNT MORE IS BAD. GUYS PLEASE

Blatant validhunting is literally one of the biggest violations of rule 1 on the server.

Besides, the wizard getting valid killed is WAY, WAY better than sec borgs tasing security for trying to kill the wizard after he's ei nath'd 50 people.

Same goes for hulks. EVERY antag besides rev has an EMP that disables borgs. Being mad because you got rekt by silicons as wizard because 'v-valid hunting!' is almost as bad as valid hunting.

Wizards are humans
Or
People who get spellbooks from summon magic and use them aren't humans

Wait no that's a terrible idea. Guess wizards stay human!

Honestly though, with both headmins and most of the community pretty apparently in favor of this, I guess that means it's time to make the new silicon policy official, with Saucey's blessing.

But are sec borgs who tase security for trying to kill an ei nath scum wizards rule 1 violators?

paprika wrote:But are sec borgs who tase security for trying to kill an ei nath scum wizards rule 1 violators?

No because they are following their laws.

If need be, we can change the fluff and the code to accommodate hulkwizards.

Why would ops or cultists (or wizards or even ninjas) be nonhuman again?
The first are solders, the second are more-or-less brainwashed, the third is (depending on who you ask) a lucky bastard or with alot of augs, and the last is probally closest to being non-human of the lot, thanks to (lorewise) genetic manipulation. They all look like humans, act like humans, get stunned like humans, bleed like humans and die like humans, thus they must be humans.

Hunks meanwhile DONOT look like humans, DONOT (normally) act like humans, DONOT get stunned by humans, etc. etc.

I would argue Nuke Ops, Cultists, Wizards and Ninja's should be considered to be Human, I don't even think you can get a solid argument to classify them as non-human.

Its oft been hinted that the Wizard is really just using or exploiting highly advance technology that from our perspectives IS magic. Going by the classic quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Nuclear Operatives are, as noted, just Human soldiers that are well equipped.

Hulks are on a different level.

Listen, if sense is getting in the way of balance - too bad for sense.

Kelenius wrote:Listen, if sense is getting in the way of balance - too bad for sense.

^
Realism is the first casualty of balance. Or lore, depending on who you ask.

Steelpoint wrote:I would argue Nuke Ops, Cultists, Wizards and Ninja's should be considered to be Human, I don't even think you can get a solid argument to classify them as non-human.

Its oft been hinted that the Wizard is really just using or exploiting highly advance technology that from our perspectives IS magic. Going by the classic quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Nuclear Operatives are, as noted, just Human soldiers that are well equipped.

Hulks are on a different level.

I thought wizards were plasma huffers? or was that the goon backstory, whatever.

If anyone tries to argue that nuke-ops, cultists and wizards are non-human then they are silly regardless.

Ninjas are probably comparable to a tech priest.

Well, looks like 25 people say hunks should be non-human while six say they are human, and two sit there watching...


So is the official policy that they are non-human now?

Polls have always been a general gauge of community response or at least the people who have the capacity to click an option at the very least. It'll be discussed and hopefully soon there will be a policy on it.

I was gonna go neutral, but then I realized this can give me more options since I'm never a hulk.

I had a round as an asimov AI where a hulk was smashing through everything, literally everything. The crew were begging me to kill him or not care if the hulk was killed. It was so shit, and so blatantly done while admins were online, I'm pretty sure it was a false flag attack to make people hate hulks being human more.

The worst part was ooc and admins later after round end saying that hulks were still human and after being witness to a hulk tearing through what must have been every department including the bridge and upload. Hulk was a non-antag too, seeing as the round eventually turned out to be wizards.

fucking christ you guys have rule 0 for a reason.

But when one admin uses their rule 0 judgement to judge a certain way on something and another admin does the same thing but judges differently people feel like they've been cheated and blame it on the admin and not the rules. That is why server policies for minor things exist.

Oh man my memories of unstoppable (for me) hulks pawing at my upload like their hamhands are a hacked AI module are so fond.

Or that time an idiot geneticist uploaded a law that basically just said I was a cultist and to keep it secret (not even that only cultists were human or who they were or whatever), then the hulk geneticist broke into my core and killed me for not aiding the cult I couldn't discern from normal crew.

I think Hulks need at least rule one protection on an individual (ie; AI cannot tell its borgs to kill all hulks because one is breaking shit) basis. The problem is that it is possible to be hulked against one's will. For instance, I had a few rounds as the RD where genetics was using an all powers SE on everyone they cloned, thus mass-producing hulks who did not necessarily want to be hulks.

I do, however, think that lizardmen and slime people and potato people should be human under law one, because there's really nothing dangerous about them that isn't also applicable to humans.

the gist has always been that nonhumans (slimepeople, lizard people, golems, hulks etc) were covered by rule 1.

it's just that if one starts being a dick, that one in particular is valid.

85% of people who have voted agree that hulks arent human.

You are playing a game where you are not fully in control of everything. You will be put into situations beyond your control, which will result in some rounds being ruined for you. Man up and deal with it. However, if you are obviously griefed, be sure to report it to administrators by using the ‘adminhelp’ verb.

Silicons don't need to have control over everything. Also was it actually stated that using spell mutate as a wizard would give a window for AI and borgs to attack the wizard?
"Making AI able to kill everything equally, the policy".

alien219 wrote:You are playing a game where you are not fully in control of everything. You will be put into situations beyond your control, which will result in some rounds being ruined for you. Man up and deal with it. However, if you are obviously griefed, be sure to report it to administrators by using the ‘adminhelp’ verb.

Silicons don't need to have control over everything. Also was it actually stated that using spell mutate as a wizard would give a window for AI and borgs to attack the wizard?
"Making AI able to kill everything equally, the policy".

>Implying this is a problem

>Implying that the AI isnt trying to do what it can to "Not Harm" the wizard

alien219 wrote:You are playing a game where you are not fully in control of everything. You will be put into situations beyond your control, which will result in some rounds being ruined for you. Man up and deal with it. However, if you are obviously griefed, be sure to report it to administrators by using the ‘adminhelp’ verb.

And, so?

alien219 wrote:Also was it actually stated that using spell mutate as a wizard would give a window for AI and borgs to attack the wizard?

It's pretty simple logic.

Hulks are non-human.
Non-humans can be attacked by an ASIMOV silicon if they have reason.
Therefore, hulks can be attacked by an ASIMOV silicon if they have reason.
The wizard spell Mutate turns the user into a hulk temporarily.
Therefore, the user of the Mutate spell temporarily can be attacked by an ASIMOV silicon if they have reason.

alien219 wrote:"Making AI able to kill everything equally, the policy"

Great emotional appeal there. I give it a 0/10 does not hold water under basic logical scrutiny.

Aurx wrote:It's pretty simple logic.

Hulks are non-human.
Non-humans can be attacked by an ASIMOV silicon if they have reason.
Therefore, hulks can be attacked by an ASIMOV silicon if they have reason.
The wizard spell Mutate turns the user into a hulk temporarily.
Therefore, the user of the Mutate spell temporarily can be attacked by an ASIMOV silicon if they have reason.

Yes, it's very straight forward. I don't get what's the problem here. I'm assuming wizards get dehulked when at 25% health like normal hulks? Well, you probably won't be able to kill them anyway, even if you swing 1-2 more times after dehulking. After that you obviously have to get them medical treatment ASAP, especially if they're in critical. If you do that, banning you for few extra swings on hulk who suddenly became human will be silly.

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:

Aurx wrote:It's pretty simple logic.

Hulks are non-human.
Non-humans can be attacked by an ASIMOV silicon if they have reason.
Therefore, hulks can be attacked by an ASIMOV silicon if they have reason.
The wizard spell Mutate turns the user into a hulk temporarily.
Therefore, the user of the Mutate spell temporarily can be attacked by an ASIMOV silicon if they have reason.

Yes, it's very straight forward. I don't get what's the problem here. I'm assuming wizards get dehulked when at 25% health like normal hulks? Well, you probably won't be able to kill them anyway, even if you swing 1-2 more times after dehulking. After that you obviously have to get them medical treatment ASAP, especially if they're in critical. If you do that, banning you for few extra swings on hulk who suddenly became human will be silly.

Wizard is human - I may not harm them
Mutate makes him temporarily Hulk
Hulks are non-human
Mutated Wizards are non-human - I may harm them freely
They are not Hulk when the mutation ends
Non-Hulked humans are human
Wizards are human - I may not harm them again

Best get a medkit, you have to heal the wizard when they become human again, and if you kill them you broke your laws.

The way around this is to have someone upload a law that declares "Wizard McMurderboner is not human" when they are hulked, and then laugh as they cease to be human forever.

Alternatively just do this to every person that gets hulk every round and laugh like a lunatic.

Unless the wizard is in critical or other declining condition there is no impetus to have him healed. Nothing in your laws says you must undo harm except law 2 if they order you.