Abductor "antag"

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onleavedontatme
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Abductor "antag"

Post by onleavedontatme » #130918

So are abuctees full antags or what, rules wise? I've been telling them that they can kill people if it makes sense objective wise (dismantle the cloner and kill anyone trying to rebuild it for "stop cloning," the guy who made a boh singulo to "return to the warp") but otherwise are not full antags.

But I've argued with other admins who say that "antag is antag" and that an objective to steal fruit means take the armory and kill everyone.

For what it's worth, the person who coded abductors agrees with me as far as I'm aware, and abductors sre primarily meant to be non lethal, not churn out a bunch of murder sprees.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Bluespace » #130919

They should be semi-antag. They should be gibbed if they start doing shit that's clearly just being done due to "le antag do anything" meme.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Incoming » #130920

Honestly abductees probably shouldn't even be antags, they should just get a message saying it's encouraged to act like a nut.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by CPTANT » #130923

They should definitely not use "steal the shoes" as an excuse to just flood the station with plasma and bomb the shit out of it.

I think they should get something like "don't harm the crew" in their objectives or something.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by onleavedontatme » #130925

Incoming wrote:Honestly abductees probably shouldn't even be antags, they should just get a message saying it's encouraged to act like a nut.
I was told they were added to the traitor panel for tracking purposes (it becomes an admin issue when the "oxygen is toxic" guy starts smashing all the windows and we cant easily verify why hes doing that).
CPTANT wrote:They should definitely not use "steal the shoes" as an excuse to just flood the station with plasma and bomb the shit out of it.

I think they should get something like "don't harm the crew" in their objectives or something.
I think harming the crew is fine as long as you do it in a creative way/tie it in to your objectives.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Wyzack » #130927

I agree, i think it is so fucking silly to just have a solid defining line between "Not allowed to hurt people" and "fucking mass murder because i can"
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Void Slayer » #130963

Demanding that people who have antagonistic role play objective foisted on them then criticizing how they choose to go about it is a dark path we should not really go down. We do not force other antags to act in ways we want to give them freedom to make the round interesting, besides not screwing over team objectives. If you do not like that abductors give out antag tokens then remove them, but as long as they are giving out objectives we should not limit them.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Davidchan » #130967

Abductors killing people is... no. I don't even consider them antags. The crew certainly doesn't like them and people get their valids at the chance to kill one and steal his shit, but if they are working together properly most crew won't be able to do much more than slap one upside the head before he TPs out.

Having them do more than abduct is fine. The station is an experiment to them, so maybe its a control group and they are dead set on keeping the status quo, to include removing other antags if necessary or helping avert danger, or maybe they are doing a test a group and are tasked to change or introduce new elements to the test. Give them more equipment to buy via the science console for abducting people, machines or items that can be placed on the station that will cause random things to happen, from mob spawners to overloads in the power net.

In all the abdjuctors (and their victims) should get 'fun' objectives, things which might be an annoyance to some but generally funny to others.

Then again, I've always wanted to abdjuct the hop, steal his ID and go back to the station and hand out random access (literally random. Chef wants botany access. He has security now! Engineering needs into cargo, SCIENCE time! Clown wants full access? Clown can go anywhere EXPECT maintenance tunnels now.)
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Shaps-cloud » #130975

Void Slayer wrote:Demanding that people who have antagonistic role play objective foisted on them then criticizing how they choose to go about it is a dark path we should not really go down. We do not force other antags to act in ways we want to give them freedom to make the round interesting, besides not screwing over team objectives. If you do not like that abductors give out antag tokens then remove them, but as long as they are giving out objectives we should not limit them.
yeah how can i be expected to steal people's shoes without maxcapping the station and releasing the singulo??
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by imblyings » #131006

Abductors and abductees can only happen if admins press the button and what the admin giveth, the admin can taketh away. If they start causing too much mayhem, any admin can just spawn in ERT or badmin to restore the balance.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Cheimon » #131077

I don't see why any antagonist "must" have free reign to do whatever they want if it doesn't fit the character of their game position. While it makes sense that certain "primary" antagonists should have no restrictions, the reality is that almost all other antagonist types do, or are considered to. Almost any team, for example, includes a "no teamkilling" expectation.

Meanwhile, certain playstyles while allowed within the rules are still definitely frowned upon. While traitors, wizards, and changelings are expected to do whatever they want, including murderboning, people get annoyed if Nuke Ops do the same instead of trying to set up a nuclear device (I don't mean murdering people on the way to the disk, I mean ignoring it entirely). This is because while the first three have a fairly loose design goal (made clear by their pretty variable objectives), Nuke Ops are equipped and designed for one very specific mode. The struggle to secure the disk is a deliberate way of ensuring the Nuke Ops have to come up against the best of the Station Crew, and that's why they get better equipment.

Abductors are very similar. They are given equipment and abilities specifically to allow them to go into departments, take out single targets with ease, and then teleport out. That means they have a great deal of capacity to subdue someone, but not a lot of incentive to kill them. But if all abductors became mass-murderers, that equipment would be subverted in a completely ridiculous way. The teleport system and the alien baton are simply too powerful to reliably counter, and with the added reality that abductors will steal much more powerful weaponry they become nigh-invincible, only brought down by incompetence or and overwhelmingly prepared crew.

It's totally reasonable to design an antag around doing things a particular way, and therefore it's totally reasonable to say that an antag should be bound by certain rules. We already have these expectations and in some cases these rules: telling abductors not to go and murder the station is simply extending that.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by sirnat » #131106

I once late joined a round on box, and stepped off the shuttle.

What do I see? An abductor dressed as the hop who has a egun and guns me down outside the sec cp, then teleported away. Luckily I called it out and medics/sec came and healed me.

Make them listed as 'antags' for tracking reason, and the abductees.

I say let the abductees be the antags but not allowed to bomb or release singularity as well as plasma flooding.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by TheNightingale » #131112

The abductees are already antags, but they sometimes disregard their objectives and murderbone. I think that's what this thread is about. Maybe a big red "YOU HAVE TO AT LEAST PRETEND TO FOLLOW YOUR OBJECTIVES" when they get abducted?
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by invisty » #131151

If people are incapable of at least pretending to role-play their new role, then I think it's pretty safe to say they're not the types of people we want around here. Slap a job ban/account ban on them and enjoy their swan-song in FNR.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Shadowlight213 » #131154

Wait. So is this thread about the abductors or the abductees? If the latter then it's horribly titled.
If abductors start killing people and murderboning, then they should be jobbanned from it as that is completely against what they are supposed to do.

Abductees are a little more of a grey area I think, but for the most part they probably should at least make an effort to follow their objectives.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by firecage » #131185

Well. Nuke Op's can be jobbanned if they screw up their objective on purpose. Revs and Cult can similarly be jobbaned. Thus jobban abductors if they begin randomly killing people, since some antags already have limits to what they can and cannot do.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Steelpoint » #131188

I thought this thread was bout the abductees? Not the abductors.

The thing with being abducted is that its not entirely out of one's control. If one knows that there are abductions going on simply hiding in a empty room and waiting for someone to abduct you could lead to a one way ticket to a antag token, assuming your implant does not kill you somehow. Of course its very unreliable but people will go to lengths to achieve a form of antagonist status, I duly recall people willingly allowing themselves to be borgified at a Cyborg Conversion Unit during Malf Rounds, I even recall people, in the middle of a big fight, dragging themselves and others to be borgified. But I digress.

The question should be what do we gain for abductee's being antagonists, and what would we lose if they lost that privilege? Does the abductee having antagonist rights create a net positive influence on the round or does it act in bad faith to the round and its enjoyment?

Prehaps look into making abductee's non-antagonists that simply have to find a way to deal and/or cope with the side effects of their implant.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Screemonster » #131201

Basically this has turned into the "You are the survivor!" problem all over again. Got an objective to grab a gun and stay alive until the end no matter what? LE ANTAG STATUS TIME TO RELEASE LE SINGULO

Admittedly that sorta chaos was kinda the point of Summon Guns but people have got some meme into their heads that restricting any antag in any way is some sort of slippery slope to baystation - in fact, that was the main problem with the Survivor fiasco, that it created antags, which by their very definition cannot be subject to any playstyle restrictions or anything like that, apparently.
It's the reason why admins can't pull players in for events, because there's always that shitbird who screams MUH ANTAG STATUS I CAN DO WHAT I WANT and goes on a murderboner-stroking rampage when their RP brief was that they were a slippery used mech salesman or a bunch of hippies from the Galactic Wildlife Federation with the objective to stage a sit-in protest about the mistreatment of slimes or whatever.

Normal gamemode antags should be unrestricted, naturally, but if the question is down to them "being antags", then... why should that in and of itself apply to everything even slightly abnormal on the traitor panel?
Hell, just create a "side-antag" status if you're that incapable of dealing with life without using a rigid flowchart.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by onleavedontatme » #131226

It's not even as new and shocking as people seem to think. We've had silicons able to act antagonistic within lawsets for years.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Oldman Robustin » #131234

Give them free reign.

It's far harder and messier to enforce anything else. I've almost always had people try to lynch me after I get abducted, I would barf out non-hostile slimes (that may eventually become hostile if not fed or frozen after a few minutes) and I went straight to escape to evacuate, after barfing out one slime I had two guys attack and kill me on the spot.

Yes its over the top when someone BOH bombs the station because they needed shoes, but that's not the standard reaction to being an abductee and whatever negative effects there are to the occasional mass murder abductee, its far worse banning people or pestering them with BWOINKS because of the grey area surrounding their objective.

If you really want to prevent that, make abductees part of the abductor "team" with a clear policy that nothing they do should render the station inhospitable or hazardous to future abductions. This prevents plasma flooding, sing releasing, maxcap bombings, etc. and leaves you with the more benign murder methods that the crew can more readily counter.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Cheimon » #131238

If we're talking about abductee behaviour, part of the problem is that the objectives you're given are very inconsistent. Just like with traitor and to a lesser extent changeling, this means that they get treated as guidelines (because when they're that random, that's all they functionally are).

For reference, objectives given vary from stealing all shoes/pets/bars of soap/lights/monkeys/fruit, to capturing a [person of specific job]/[someone], to stopping any cloning, to forcing a shuttle call (which is where hur singulo tcomms time 4 bombs comes in).

These objectives are definitely flavorful, but they don't really set any boundaries or suggest to a player that they ought to do something specific. In other words, they encourage the idea that you're a 'full' antag, licensed to murderbone at will.

If you want to change that, then the solution is to change the objectives. Other than 'serial killer', there are several directions you could take this antag. Two of the most obvious are non-violent thief and saboteur (with the obvious exceptions of making hull breaches), and also perhaps adding a third 'dud' in, just to discourage people from deliberately getting abducted for antag. The third one wouldn't give any antagonistic status at all, but you'd still be valid as hell. If you were to pick those three, then, you might get abductees that weren't going for murder but were still freshly impacting the round in a meaningful way.

EDIT: uhh, Oldman's idea in bold at the bottom of his post is much better than mine. One could additionally make the point that murder is also generally unhelpful to future abductions, but that's probably putting it a bit strong (after all, without it abductors could turn into shadowling 2.0).
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Cobby » #131264

I'm really not seeing the issue here.

If you can't think of something creative to fit your objective, you don't HAVE to murder the entire station. I do not understand the difficulty in asking people to have a bit more creativity or just not do anything. Odds are you're a side-antag so it's not like you're the driving force of the round, and odds are you're also not the only abducted on the station.

We should go by how the individual who made them intended them to be played as.
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invisty
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by invisty » #131272

Oldman Robustin wrote:I've almost always had people try to lynch me after I get abducted, I would barf out non-hostile slimes (that may eventually become hostile if not fed or frozen after a few minutes) and I went straight to escape to evacuate, after barfing out one slime I had two guys attack and kill me on the spot.
Oldman Robustin wrote:Yes its over the top when someone BOH bombs the station because they needed shoes, but that's not the standard reaction to being an abductee and whatever negative effects there are to the occasional mass murder abductee, its far worse banning people or pestering them with BWOINKS because of the grey area surrounding their objective.[/b]
All of this can be resolved if players and admins act reasonably. It's a shame that players almost never act reasonable in the first place.

IMO, if this can't be resolved, just tweak abductees so that their modifications don't cause harm to other players or incite antagonistic (see: drawing the attention of security and thus yakkedy-saxxing which leads to murdering) behaviour.
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Re: Abductor "antag"

Post by Incomptinence » #132026

Free reign once they do their job. They need the station crew as test subjects once the tests are conducted it makes IC sense to do whatever.

Are they on the possible events yet with a decent probability? Could really use more of them.
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