Atmos Modifications

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

Moderators: In-Game Game Master, In-Game Head Admins

Forum rules
Read these board rules before posting or you'll get reprimanded.
Threads without replies for 30 days will be automatically locked.
User avatar
Ikarrus
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:17 am
Location: Canada
Byond Username: Ikarrus
Github Username: Ikarrus

Atmos Modifications

Postby Ikarrus » Sun May 25, 2014 11:59 pm #8972

There's been some disagreement within adminbus on exactly where the line should be drawn for "Atmos Metagaming". The main point of contention specifically is whether or not replacing pumps with manual valves should be bannable.

A lot of admins have been forbidding the use of manual valves in atmos, mostly because it's perceived to screw over the AI, but I have to disagree on this point. Manual pumps are hardly permanent, and are easily replaced. Most AIs have or will have engineering borgs that can replace these pumps and make the gas flow again. The AI honestly has enough going for it without having an admin-protected ability to gas the station at any time.

Atmos techs have barely anything else to do, especially if we're going to restrict what they can or can not do to their own departments. It may be an upsetting thing to happen but I don't believe it's something we should be getting the admins involved with. I'd just like us to give atmos techs a little more leeway with what they do in their own department.

I am hoping that we can come to a consensus with an official policy from a head admin.
Former Dev/Headmin
Who is this guy?



User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Psyentific » Mon May 26, 2014 12:23 am #8980

Much like the engineer's job is to set up the engine, keep the station powered, and prevent the singulo from escaping, the Atmo Tech's job is to set up atmos, keep the station breathable, and pre-emptively prevent plasma floods. Given that replacing the pipes is a simple wrench job, yes, yes they should be allowed to manual valve the plasma and N2O tanks. If it wasn't for admins, I'd expect them to do it every round. If you don't have an engiborg, or your engiborg doesn't know how to wrench up a pipe, that's your own fault - Don't cry to admins about it.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
Brotemis
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:45 pm
Byond Username: Brotemis

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Brotemis » Mon May 26, 2014 1:14 am #8985

Actually, this is the same as "securing" boards in secure tech storage or the upload boards, or the armory.

It's metagaming, pure and simple. You have literally no reason or IC reason to modify atmos and the excuse "prevent plasma or harmful gas flood" won't cut it. Who are you trying to prevent flood gasses?

Who are you preventing from stealing from the armory?

Unless someone makes an attempt to mess with atmos, you can't justify this. And I'd rather make a move away from powergaming because as soon as it becomes the norm to do so, you're not only making people get yelled out for NOT doing it, you're making the game extremely unfun just to get dat redtext.

User avatar
Ikarrus
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:17 am
Location: Canada
Byond Username: Ikarrus
Github Username: Ikarrus

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Ikarrus » Mon May 26, 2014 1:30 am #8988

Hiding the armory or secure tech boards is a completely different matter, as it's considerably harder to find where they went than it is to replace a pipe segment. As long as atmos isn't put into an irreversible state, I don't think it's an issue admins should get involved in.

I don't like how atmos techs that want to work on a project need to follow the meta and leave a very conspicuous corner of the piping untouched.
Former Dev/Headmin
Who is this guy?

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Psyentific » Mon May 26, 2014 1:53 am #8996

Brotemis wrote:It's metagaming, pure and simple. You have literally no reason or IC reason to modify atmos and the excuse "prevent plasma or harmful gas flood" won't cut it. Who are you trying to prevent flood gasses?

No, no it isn't. It's competence. It's being good at what you do. It's like wiring the emitters into the collectors to prevent a containment failure, or swiping your ID on the emitters to prevent random chucklefucks with spacesuits from releasing the engine. The only reason I don't expect Ty Andrews or whatever other robusters are in Atmos to do this every single round is because it's a jobbannable offense. Preventing a plasma flood is the Atmo Tech's job, same as preventing a singulo breach is the Engineer's job or preventing a viral outbreak is the Virologist's job; the manual valve is one of the easiest ways to do this.

Brotemis wrote:Who are you trying to prevent flood gasses?

Anyone and everyone - A harmful gas flood is a guaranteed shuttle call, especially if it's done through Atmos instead of canisters. "PLASMA IN DISTRO" is the one thing you never want to hear over Engineering chatter, and it's the Atmo Tech's one, single, above-all-else job to prevent that.

It's not as if manual valving is hard to undo, either. Pull up a pump or a straight pipe, unwrench the valve, wrench the pipe in. Done. It'd be a different case if it was something irreversible, such as piping plasma output into plasma input then superpressurizing the pipes to prevent any alterations. It'd be a different case if it was something actually hard to do, such as thermite-breaching the plasma tank to vent it, or removing the plasma intake inside the tank. But it's not. It's a wrench and ten seconds. A trained monkey could do it - Literally. The case is now that, if the AI intends to plasma flood, by the time an average atmo tech has 'reasonable suspicion' that the AI is rogue he'll already be dead or he'll be unable to stop it.

Will an AI be screwed if he wants to plasma flood but doesn't have an Engiborg? Yes, absolutely. Should he be? Yes, absolutely.
If the AI doesn't have an engiborg, odds are he has a secborg, which are plenty potent on their own and don't need plasma floods to back them up.
If the AI doesn't have an engiborg or a secborg, then either he's an idiot with a Law 0 (Screwed anyway) or he got subverted by an idiot (Screwed anyway).
It's not as if getting a cyborg change is hard - This just makes an AI commit to either a 'borg murderbone or atmos tomfoolery, and removes his ability to do both out the gate.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Location: in down bad
Byond Username: Paprka

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby paprika » Mon May 26, 2014 2:16 am #9003

But a manual valve doesn't prevent gas flooding. The only person it hinders from flooding gas is the AI, so you're specifically metagaming the AI, which you have no reason to suspect as a traitor or malf at round start, is going to flood gas.

/thread
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

Aurx
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:24 pm
Byond Username: Aurx

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Aurx » Mon May 26, 2014 2:33 am #9004

Psyentific wrote:If the AI doesn't have an engiborg or a secborg, then either he's an idiot or he got subverted by an idiot.

So nobody choosing to sign up for borg that round means the AI's an idiot?
Head admin, /vg/station
Game admin, /tg/station
POMF FOR HEADMIN

User avatar
Neerti
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:06 pm
Byond Username: Neerti

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Neerti » Mon May 26, 2014 2:37 am #9005

Before the obvious is said.

An AI asking for a cyborg makes people think 'I bet it's rogue'. I'm not exaggerating.
ImageImage
- Game Admin -
Feel free to PM me on the forums or IRC with questions, concerns, feedback, or just talk about stuff.
Have I not met my hitler quota this month?

User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Location: in down bad
Byond Username: Paprka

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby paprika » Mon May 26, 2014 2:45 am #9007

Yeah admins have all the right in the world to ban non-antag atmos techs who do this at roundstart no matter what. That's immensely shitty.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Psyentific » Mon May 26, 2014 2:53 am #9011

paprika wrote:But a manual valve doesn't prevent gas flooding. The only person it hinders from flooding gas is the AI, so you're specifically metagaming the AI, which you have no reason to suspect as a traitor or malf at round start, is going to flood gas.

/thread

The only person other than Atmo Techs who flood gas is the AI; They're kinda notorious for it.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

Aurx
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:24 pm
Byond Username: Aurx

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Aurx » Mon May 26, 2014 3:00 am #9014

Psyentific wrote:
paprika wrote:But a manual valve doesn't prevent gas flooding. The only person it hinders from flooding gas is the AI, so you're specifically metagaming the AI, which you have no reason to suspect as a traitor or malf at round start, is going to flood gas.

/thread

The only person other than Atmo Techs who flood gas is the AI; They're kinda notorious for it.

Yeah, because people are idiots who are afraid of atmos. It takes nearly zero effort to break in to atmos and set it up to pump plasma. If you have a spacesuit, you can even do it from space and unless there's somebody in atmos right then you'll get away with it no problem.
Head admin, /vg/station
Game admin, /tg/station
POMF FOR HEADMIN

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Psyentific » Mon May 26, 2014 3:03 am #9017

I never said people weren't capable of it. I said that the single role most notorious for creating a plasma-fueled inferno out of any(all) rooms on the station is the AI. It makes sense to take pre-emptive steps to counteract that, especially if it's your job to deal with atmospheric issues in the first place.


Keep in mind that the AI has no real reason to be screwing with atmospherics in the first place, especially if there's atmo techs around to do the manual valving in the first place. I consider manual-valving acceptable for the same reasons I consider cutting the camera/AI Control in the RD's office acceptable.
Last edited by Psyentific on Mon May 26, 2014 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
imblyings
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm
Location: >using suit sensors
Byond Username: Ausops

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby imblyings » Mon May 26, 2014 3:07 am #9019

Brotemis wrote:It's metagaming, pure and simple. You have literally no reason or IC reason to modify atmos and the excuse "prevent plasma or harmful gas flood" won't cut it. Who are you trying to prevent flood gasses?


please, you're an admin.

Metagaming is the use of information known to the player and not the character.

What is feasibly known to a character on a server which doesn't enforce canon end-of-round mindwipes and allows persistent memory?

The fact that plenty of stations get flooded with plasma from atmos.

This isn't metagaming then, unless you are using rule 0 to say that characters aren't allowed to remember anything about plasma floods.

You could call it powergaming but the fact is you could call it competency as well- you could even call it correct roleplay if someone wanted to roleplay a competent atmos tech.

I don't care either way and look, maybe it's to the greater benefit of fun that certain antags doing certain things are given extra hugbox protection. But if you are going to give certain antags doing certain things extra hugbox protection, at least understand clearly what it is that you are doing, use the right words to describe what you are doing, and more importantly, put all these very arbitrary policies in a place where players can see them. I can't find any reference to this rule in the game rules page or the atmos tech page on the wiki.
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.

User avatar
Neerti
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:06 pm
Byond Username: Neerti

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Neerti » Mon May 26, 2014 3:07 am #9020

paprika wrote:But a manual valve doesn't prevent gas flooding. The only person it hinders from flooding gas is the AI, so you're specifically metagaming the AI, which you have no reason to suspect as a traitor or malf at round start, is going to flood gas.

/thread
ImageImage
- Game Admin -
Feel free to PM me on the forums or IRC with questions, concerns, feedback, or just talk about stuff.
Have I not met my hitler quota this month?

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Psyentific » Mon May 26, 2014 3:09 am #9021

Neerti wrote:
paprika wrote:But a manual valve doesn't prevent gas flooding. The only person it hinders from flooding gas is the AI, so you're specifically metagaming the AI, which you have no reason to suspect as a traitor or malf at round start, is going to flood gas.

/thread

Psyentific wrote:The only person other than Atmo Techs who flood gas is the AI; They're kinda notorious for it.


Flooding plasma is a rogue AI's signature move, right up there with laser-fueled secborg killing sprees and the telecomms APC's main breaker being set to off. It's utter foolishness not to take steps to prevent that, especially if you want to call yourself a competent atmo tech. It's not metagaming, it's gud-gitting.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
imblyings
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm
Location: >using suit sensors
Byond Username: Ausops

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby imblyings » Mon May 26, 2014 3:24 am #9024

Maybe there needs to be some sort of distinction set between pre-emptive actions meant to minimize death from antag action and pre-emptive actions meant to stop antags from getting greentext.

Because there is a difference, if not a subtle one, at times.
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.

User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Location: in down bad
Byond Username: Paprka

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby paprika » Mon May 26, 2014 3:31 am #9025

>"Notorious" for it
>"Signature move"
>"They always do it"

Are you that bad at concealing your metagame?
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Psyentific » Mon May 26, 2014 3:33 am #9027

Why should I need to conceal it?
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
Neerti
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:06 pm
Byond Username: Neerti

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Neerti » Mon May 26, 2014 3:35 am #9028

Image

>inb4 >what is metagaming?
>inb4 weak policy
ImageImage
- Game Admin -
Feel free to PM me on the forums or IRC with questions, concerns, feedback, or just talk about stuff.
Have I not met my hitler quota this month?

User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Location: in down bad
Byond Username: Paprka

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby paprika » Mon May 26, 2014 3:36 am #9029

mfw
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Psyentific » Mon May 26, 2014 3:51 am #9036

My arguement for manual valving basically boils down to this:

1) Manual valving is easy to do and easy to undo.
If the AI is incapable of undoing a manual valve, it shouldn't be flooding plasma in the first place. All you need is a wrench - Even if you don't have an engiborg, you may have someone who subverted you or someone you can convince/coerce into holding the wrench.

2) Manual valving is competence, not metagaming.
Manual valving is a basic counter to a widely known and widely used method of forcing a shuttle call. This is a clear pattern recognizable both in-character and out-of-character. Since the Atmo Tech's job revolves around keeping the station breathable, and since his worst case scenario is plasma in distro, it makes sense to assume that a competent atmo tech will take pre-emptive steps to counteract this.

3) Manual valving minimizes casualties - It does not deny greentext.
An AI can kill a single person easily enough - Past that, all it has to do is force a shuttle call, which is easy to do with any borg and moderately harder without a borg. Murderboning is poor form and ought to be discouraged under all circumstances. If you can't kill a single meatbag without plasma and get away clean, gitgud.

4) Server rules and administrative policy should not encourage or incorporate hand-holding, and should not discourage skill and knowledge.
This never should've been a policy in the first place - See above reasoning. I'm actually curious how this came to be policy in the first place, because it doesn't seem like something that jives with the rest of policy. It feels far too hands-on and far too specific.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
Kelenius
 
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:53 am
Byond Username: Kelenius

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Kelenius » Mon May 26, 2014 4:00 am #9040

Ikarrus wrote:Manual pumps are hardly permanent, and are easily replaced. Most AIs have or will have engineering borgs that can replace these pumps and make the gas flow again. The AI honestly has enough going for it without having an admin-protected ability to gas the station at any time.

Atmos techs have barely anything else to do, especially if we're going to restrict what they can or can not do to their own departments. It may be an upsetting thing to happen but I don't believe it's something we should be getting the admins involved with. I'd just like us to give atmos techs a little more leeway with what they do in their own department.

Lockers are hardly permanent, and are easily replaced. Most traitors have or will have emags or EMP items that can hack open those lockers and make weapons accessible again. The traitors honestly have enough going for it without having an admin-protected ability to loot the armory at any time.

Warden has barely anything else to do, especially if we're going to restrict what they can or can not do to their own departments. It may be an upsetting thing to happen but I don't believe it's something we should be getting the admins involved with. I'd just like us to give warden a little more leeway with what they do in their own department.

Anyway

Yes, putting manual valves there is metagaming. Almost of the level of carding the AI at roundstart: it means that you suspect the AI of the station to be rogue. If the AI is not rogue, you are not 'improving' anything, you are making it worse, because if someone /else/ gets into atmos and starts a plasma floor, AI will be unable to /stop/ it.

User avatar
Neerti
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:06 pm
Byond Username: Neerti

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Neerti » Mon May 26, 2014 4:08 am #9042

How do you feel about wardens putting the guns in a locker in his office? Isn't it shitty? In-fact it's bannable to do so fnr.

I can turn your argument about why manual valving is good and turn it into why securing the armory asap fnr is being competent.

My arguement for putting the guns in the armory in a locker basically bolts down to this:

1) Gun securing is easy to do and easy to undo.
If the traitor is incapable of opening a locked locker, it shouldn't be looting in the first place. All you need is an emag - Even if you don't have an emag, you may have someone who has a gun or someone you can convince/coerce into giving you guns.

2) Armory securing is competence, not metagaming.
Guns in locker is a basic counter to a widely known and widely used method of acquiring weapons. This is a clear pattern recognizable both in-character and out-of-character. Since the Warden's job revolves around keeping the brig and armory working, and since his worst case scenario is hole to space, it makes sense to assume that a competent warden will take pre-emptive steps to counteract this.

3) Armory securing minimizes casualties - It does not deny greentext.
A traitor can kill a single person easily enough - Past that, all it has to do is force a shuttle call, which is easy to do with any traitor items and moderately harder without. Murderboning is poor form and ought to be discouraged under all circumstances. If you can't kill a single crewmember without guns and not die, gitgud.

4) Server rules and administrative policy should not encourage or incorporate hand-holding, and should not discourage p2w and meta.
This never should've been a policy in the first place - See above reasoning. I'm actually curious how this came to be policy in the first place, because it doesn't seem like something that jives with the rest of policy. It feels far too hands-on and far too specific.


Also, 'convince someone to wrench manual valve' . Are you for real with me?
ImageImage
- Game Admin -
Feel free to PM me on the forums or IRC with questions, concerns, feedback, or just talk about stuff.
Have I not met my hitler quota this month?

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Psyentific » Mon May 26, 2014 4:32 am #9051

Neerti wrote:How do you feel about wardens putting the guns in a locker in his office? Isn't it shitty? In-fact it's bannable to do so fnr.
Also, 'convince someone to wrench manual valve' . Are you for real with me?

Actually, the case of the warden's gun locker is different from manual valve, but the same issue as the tech storage boards and the AI Upload boards.
That is, if an important item is relocated, someone who wants that item first has to find that item - The e-gun stash could be anywhere. Warden's locker, toilet cisterns, crate on the firing range, whatever. The AI Upload board could be deconstructed for R&D for all you know.

The difference comes about because it's very easy to tell that the plasma tank has been manualvalved and that, since it's atmos, it's very easy to pull up a pipe or a pump to replace it, even if the atmo techs have made off with the pipe dispenser. Relocating the armory or the boards becomes a wild goose chase, whereas a new pipe can be pulled from a handful of tiles away.


Edit:
And yes, speaking as a spaceman whose primary motive is prudent self-interest, if the AI PDAs me and says "Do this, then sit in engipod for the next 20m. Don't get in my way, and I won't burn you with the rest of the station", I'd do it. There's probably a fair bit of people who would do the same. You could talk them into it, you could promise safety, you could use a secborg to force them to do it at gunpoint.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
Kelenius
 
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:53 am
Byond Username: Kelenius

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Kelenius » Mon May 26, 2014 4:43 am #9056

Psyentific wrote:Edit:
And yes, speaking as a spaceman whose primary motive is prudent self-interest, if the AI PDAs me and says "Do this, then sit in engipod for the next 20m. Don't get in my way, and I won't burn you with the rest of the station", I'd do it. There's probably a fair bit of people who would do the same. You could talk them into it, you could promise safety, you could use a secborg to force them to do it at gunpoint.

Ha

Ha

Ahahahahahahahahahah

Here's a short story of K.E.L. the traitor AI who completed his objective, told everyone that there'll be no more killing and that I won't touch escape wing. Two engineers broke into my core, went past all the defences, missed the escape shuttle just to not let me greentext.

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Psyentific » Mon May 26, 2014 4:45 am #9057

Kelenius wrote:
Psyentific wrote:Edit:
And yes, speaking as a spaceman whose primary motive is prudent self-interest, if the AI PDAs me and says "Do this, then sit in engipod for the next 20m. Don't get in my way, and I won't burn you with the rest of the station", I'd do it. There's probably a fair bit of people who would do the same. You could talk them into it, you could promise safety, you could use a secborg to force them to do it at gunpoint.

Ha

Ha

Ahahahahahahahahahah

Here's a short story of K.E.L. the traitor AI who completed his objective, told everyone that there'll be no more killing and that I won't touch escape wing. Two engineers broke into my core, went past all the defences, missed the escape shuttle just to not let me greentext.



>Sibyl
Two engineers being valid-seeking greentext-deniers doesn't mean there aren't reasonable people on the server, trying to RP.

E: Quoted because new page.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
Neerti
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:06 pm
Byond Username: Neerti

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Neerti » Mon May 26, 2014 4:59 am #9062

The policy has to be the same on all three servers.

Also I'd bet the same thing would happen on arty. Not basil, since nobody would be on to stop the AI.
ImageImage
- Game Admin -
Feel free to PM me on the forums or IRC with questions, concerns, feedback, or just talk about stuff.
Have I not met my hitler quota this month?

User avatar
Pandarsenic
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Location: AI Upload
Byond Username: Pandarsenic

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Pandarsenic » Mon May 26, 2014 5:09 am #9066

I would argue that the standard pipe layout has a solid IC reason (It's modular and can put any gas in any section) and an OOC reason (Allowing low-modification flooding of any gas).

Manual valves before you have a reason to suspect AI hostility is meta.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
The latest /tg/station13 Silicon Policy reference document can be found at http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf
If you need something handled that involves silicons, lawsets, etc., forum message me or find me on IRC.
ImageImage
I take Rule 1 of the servers very seriously. If you do too, we shouldn't have a problem.
Spoiler:
Image Image
Image Image

User avatar
MisterPerson
Board Moderator
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:26 pm
Byond Username: MisterPerson

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby MisterPerson » Mon May 26, 2014 5:40 am #9071

Reasons to outlaw atmos modification purely designed to dick over the AI:
Increases the fun of the AI, if it's rogue
Increases the fun of people who enjoy plasma floods, which is mostly new players who haven't experienced very many
Increases the fun of anyone who subverts the AI
Decreases the "play-to-win" attitude some atmos techs take

Reasons to allow atmos modifications, including ones that coincidentally dick over the AI:
Gives atmos techs more latitude for modifications, which will increase the amount of enjoyment they get from not having to worry about breaking the rules or actually getting banned. In particular, this is one of the major causes of the "atmos tech = assistant who starts with tools" attitude many, many players have.

Modifications that still allow the AI to plasma flood should be both allowed and encouraged. Taking an administrative stance like that would basically solve the one advantage I outlined above. Of course if the AI is rogue, there's someone clearly trying to break into atmospherics or flood plasma, or someone already has flooded plasma, then by all means, shut off the plasma by any means necessary.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Feedback is dumb and it doesn't matter

User avatar
Helios127
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:38 am

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Helios127 » Mon May 26, 2014 5:49 am #9073

WHY DONT

why dont

we remove manual gas valves if they are metagaming?
just play on /vg/station, go have fun for christs sake

User avatar
leibniz
 
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 6:21 pm
Location: Seeking help
Byond Username: Leibniz

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby leibniz » Mon May 26, 2014 5:52 am #9074

Pandarsenic wrote:I would argue that the standard pipe layout has a solid IC reason (It's modular and can put any gas in any section) and an OOC reason (Allowing low-modification flooding of any gas).

Manual valves before you have a reason to suspect AI hostility is meta.


I agree with this.
My approach to meta is not to modify the standard stuff purely to make an antag's job more difficult BEFORE something indicates the presence of an antag. (reasonable suspicion)
Also, it is somewhat related, that with standard valves, the AI can undo a flood started by humans.

Not strictly relevant, but I believe that borgs should take some damage from fires or strong heat, because flooding and fire seems to be a bit too much of a faceroll now.
Founder and only member of the "Whitelist Nukeops" movement

Aurx
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:24 pm
Byond Username: Aurx

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Aurx » Mon May 26, 2014 5:54 am #9076

MisterPerson wrote:Gives atmos techs more latitude for modifications, which will increase the amount of enjoyment they get from not having to worry about breaking the rules or actually getting banned. In particular, this is one of the major causes of the "atmos tech = assistant who starts with tools" attitude many, many players have.

If somebody repipes atmos and it just so happens it cuts off plasma floods, whoopdeefuckingdoo. They put in actual effort, they get to have fun. I sure as hell wouldn't jobban over a repiping that was actual atmospherics engineering.
Head admin, /vg/station
Game admin, /tg/station
POMF FOR HEADMIN

User avatar
Ikarrus
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:17 am
Location: Canada
Byond Username: Ikarrus
Github Username: Ikarrus

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Ikarrus » Mon May 26, 2014 6:02 am #9079

Yes, that would address my biggest concern here. I'd be okay if we just took into account their intentions instead of a blanket ban on all modifications to the plasma gas line.

If it was clearly done to prevent the AI and only the AI from gassing the station, then it's an issue. If the atmos tech wants to do run a more comprehensive project in atmos we should let him do it without treating the gas line as some kind of untouchable set up.

I'd be okay with this.
Former Dev/Headmin
Who is this guy?

User avatar
Neerti
Rarely plays
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:06 pm
Byond Username: Neerti

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Neerti » Mon May 26, 2014 6:28 am #9086

We could redesign atmos to allow modification easier without breaking the main system.

Or add plasma tanks the AI can use outside atmos but it'd be kinda silly.
ImageImage
- Game Admin -
Feel free to PM me on the forums or IRC with questions, concerns, feedback, or just talk about stuff.
Have I not met my hitler quota this month?

User avatar
bandit
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby bandit » Mon May 26, 2014 6:36 am #9090

How big of an issue is this, really? I've literally only ever seen this happen in two cases:

A) The AI was already either fucking with atmos or suspected to be rogue, over comms
B) The guy doing manual valves was an antag who wanted to AI-proof his own plasma flood. (One time I was a traitor AI and someone came in halfway through setting the flood up to manual-valve all the things. It turned out he was a traitor and he flooded everything for me.)
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Psyentific » Mon May 26, 2014 7:42 am #9097

bandit wrote:How big of an issue is this, really?

Right now? Not. By the time the AI is flooding plasma, most atmo techs are dead or have long-since fucked off.

If manual valving becomes okay, I'm willing to bet that every atmo tech that cares enough to do his job is going to manual valve N2O and Plasma. This is a good thing - The AI ought to have to work for that plasma flood, and ideally commit to it to the exclusion of other high-bodycount methods.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
Kelenius
 
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:53 am
Byond Username: Kelenius

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Kelenius » Mon May 26, 2014 7:56 am #9098

Psyentific wrote:
bandit wrote:How big of an issue is this, really?

Right now? Not. By the time the AI is flooding plasma, most atmo techs are dead or have long-since fucked off.

If manual valving becomes okay, I'm willing to bet that every atmo tech that cares enough to do his job is going to manual valve N2O and Plasma. This is a good thing - The AI ought to have to work for that plasma flood, and ideally commit to it to the exclusion of other high-bodycount methods.

Question, have you ever played a malf or traitor AI?

Have you ever player those without any cyborgs?

Apsis
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:26 pm

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Apsis » Mon May 26, 2014 8:18 am #9101

Wouldn't cutting the cameras in atmos be a better way to stop the AI?

Anyway, the reason why cinnamon toast crunch is bannable is because it's the taste admins can see. If it's done fnr (IC) then you really have no defense. Smart players can get around most (I think atmos and the armory are among the few you can't) of this, or just dodge being noticed because everyone does it (hoarding tools guy says hi).

User avatar
Psyentific
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:44 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Byond Username: Psyentific

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Psyentific » Mon May 26, 2014 8:27 am #9103

Kelenius wrote:
Psyentific wrote:
bandit wrote:How big of an issue is this, really?

Right now? Not. By the time the AI is flooding plasma, most atmo techs are dead or have long-since fucked off.

If manual valving becomes okay, I'm willing to bet that every atmo tech that cares enough to do his job is going to manual valve N2O and Plasma. This is a good thing - The AI ought to have to work for that plasma flood, and ideally commit to it to the exclusion of other high-bodycount methods.

Question, have you ever played a malf or traitor AI?

Have you ever player those without any cyborgs?

I don't play Silicon at all.
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

User avatar
ShizCalev
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:12 am
Byond Username: ShizCalev
Github Username: ShizCalev

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby ShizCalev » Mon May 26, 2014 8:51 am #9110

I always supported the anti-meta admin protection on round start manual valve replacements.

If they suspect the AI's rogue, that's fine, then you can do it. But it shouldn't be done at round start to prevent the AI from releasing in the off chance it suddenly decides to go rogue.

If the protection is repealed, then you guys might as well edit the map so atmosia always has manual valves in place for the mix pipe.
ImageImage


>Be ling
>Spread misinformation about how SM works to sabotage it
OOC: ChemicalRascal: Lying about game mechanics in relation to an engine that is poorly understood by most isn't cool, though

User avatar
Knaive
 
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 6:25 am
Byond Username: Knaive

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Knaive » Mon May 26, 2014 10:29 am #9116

When I atmos tech on the metastation maps I usually just pipe the plasma to the turbine. The way I get it set up allows me to basically prevent the AI from ever using the plasma to flood while still being able to have the whole IC reason of using it for backup power.

Roundstart manual valves are just lame and lazy, and overall boring for everyone.

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Mon May 26, 2014 10:59 am #9120

The problem with atmos is that there is really no fucking way of using those gases in a useful way.

We need to come up with uses for those gases, otherwise there's no real reason to keep those pipes in the first place.

Admittedly, there's no reason to keep antimov around either.

So, unless there's some way to use those gases, pipes should either be removed or assumed to be there for fun reasons and protected by policy. Which is exactly what happens here. For the same reason antimov is there.

And I agree that JUST replacing valves with manual ones is fucking stupid and just plainly metagaming AI.

Admittedly, for some reason we still allow AIs metagame humans. For example, depowering upload is considered absolute norm, because LEL HOOMANS HARM, even though it's absolutely the same as replacing valves with manual. But that's another issue for another thread, I think.

User avatar
Pandarsenic
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:56 pm
Location: AI Upload
Byond Username: Pandarsenic

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Pandarsenic » Mon May 26, 2014 11:06 am #9122

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Admittedly, for some reason we still allow AIs metagame humans. For example, depowering upload is considered absolute norm, because LEL HOOMANS HARM, even though it's absolutely the same as replacing valves with manual. But that's another issue for another thread, I think.


Probable cause to predict harm is covered in my silicon policy :^)

You just have to tell the admins who don't want to change it because it's too much reading to make it official.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
The latest /tg/station13 Silicon Policy reference document can be found at http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf
If you need something handled that involves silicons, lawsets, etc., forum message me or find me on IRC.
ImageImage
I take Rule 1 of the servers very seriously. If you do too, we shouldn't have a problem.
Spoiler:
Image Image
Image Image

Lo6a4evskiy
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:40 pm
Byond Username: Lo6a4evskiy

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Mon May 26, 2014 11:30 am #9124

Pandarsenic wrote:Probable cause to predict harm is covered in my silicon policy :^)

One of the main reasons I love it
Pandarsenic wrote:You just have to tell the admins who don't want to change it because it's too much reading to make it official.

Why do we have illiterate admins? Logs are even more boring and long, don't you have to be able to read logs as an admin

User avatar
Tokiko2
 
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:18 am
Byond Username: Tokiko1

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Tokiko2 » Mon May 26, 2014 9:09 pm #9217

I think it's a weird policy, considering that engineers are told to keep their singulo as safe as possible and are free to modify engineering to make it more secure. Locking emitters, locking collectors, lowering shutters is not only allowed, it's even encouraged!

I don't really feel strongly for or against it though.

Aurx
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:24 pm
Byond Username: Aurx

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Aurx » Mon May 26, 2014 9:26 pm #9219

Tokiko2 wrote:I think it's a weird policy, considering that engineers are told to keep their singulo as safe as possible and are free to modify engineering to make it more secure. Locking emitters, locking collectors, lowering shutters is not only allowed, it's even encouraged!

Despite all those measures, any idiot with tools and gloves or a spacesuit can sabotage containment. None of those prevent the AI from ramping up the PA either. It's making it globally tamper resistant, not AI proof. If an engineer cut PA and emitter cameras round start, I'd act on that the same way I would manual valves.
Head admin, /vg/station
Game admin, /tg/station
POMF FOR HEADMIN

Fatal
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 3:25 pm
Byond Username: FatalX1

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Fatal » Mon May 26, 2014 9:29 pm #9220

I've argued for this before in deadchat a long ago

Basically, the station is a horrible death trap waiting to happen, and in most departments, you are allowed to do what you can to make it safer

The armory is already pretty secure, so there is no need to lock the guns in a locker, the same goes for secure tech storage, it's called SECURE for a reason, so I can understand why these areas have the meta-protection

Atmos is a horrible death trap waiting to happen, there is NO GOOD REASON to why there is even a possibility of putting anything but nitrogen and oxygen into the distribution, so why does this possibility exist? So people can set fire to the station and lag everyone to fuck

Honestly, I'd be quite happy to have atmos cut down to size and have plasma, N20, C02 canisters, ordered through cargo, a lot of the stuff atmos can do is pointless for anyone but antags

Remove the meta-protection, if you want to set fire to the station, you should have to work for it, atmos shouldn't be FORCED to be a fire waiting to happen

User avatar
Antonkr
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:28 pm
Byond Username: Antonkr

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Antonkr » Mon May 26, 2014 10:47 pm #9228

I honestly agree with the whole "Don't AI proof atmos, unless you have a good reason to policy."

It's literally roundstart meta of thinking that the AI might potentially be rogue. I am all for modifying atmos to make it more efficient but replacing those valves with being manual isn't even efficiency, or safety, it's outright being a dick. Atmos is designed to have many different uses. The yellow piping going from plasma isn't outright designed to be put into the station's air supply but rather into canisters and for whatever else it might be needed. It ensures that no gas really runs out on the station.
No longer an admin by own free will. Feel free to add me on steam.

Incomptinence
 
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
Byond Username: Incomptinence

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby Incomptinence » Mon May 26, 2014 11:26 pm #9236

I agree with getting rid of manual valves. They are just a redundant anti AI weapon which is unneeded.

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Atmos Modifications

Postby oranges » Tue May 27, 2014 12:15 am #9250

There is some thought amongst the coders that we should try to involve atmospherics more in the power generation, so that they have something to do other than improving the atmosperics area to be AI proof. Because right now thats basically their entire job, along with cleaning up after toxin spills.

Next

Return to Policy Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JusticeGoat

cron