Stricter ASIMOV AI punishments.

sirnat · Post by **sirnat** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:48 am #150426

Here lately, and I've noticed in the late night rounds, AI have been tending to be total shits with law 2 commands especially for opening doors to areas that arn't the armory with the excuse "You're not authorized to be there."

Had an AI last night during a rev round, who took well over 10 minutes of law 2 commanding it and the threat of blowing borgs to open a door. Every time it'd respond to the order with, "You've no authorization to be there" we made it state laws and it was indeed Asimov.

To make sure there wern't any hidden laws, I stuck around after the round ended to see it had no extra laws, or law changes to make sure it hadn't been robocop'd or whatever.

I feel that if AI who did shit like this would get more Silicon bans it would help them realize and learn that they are the station's slave and can't deny any Law 2 order so long as it doesnt include human harm.

All in all, can we possibly get a stricter punishment on AI who don't follow asimov like they should? As well as, for AI stating loudly on speakers, "Opening door for so and so to this area" when they wouldn't do it unless they knew sec wouldn't want it or whoever owned the department wouldnt want to. If it was maint, they'd do it without a problem.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:58 am #150433

How do you expect AIs to receive harsher punishment for law violations if nobody bothers to report it?

sirnat · Post by **sirnat** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:58 am #150434

Thats the thing, when you do report it most of the time they get a slap on the wrist.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:02 am #150438

sirnat wrote:Thats the thing, when you do report it most of the time they get a slap on the wrist.

As much fun as it is permabanning brand new players, what else would you expect to happen to new players?

sirnat · Post by **sirnat** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:27 am #150445

New players I can understand not knowing exactly what Asimov means. This is mainly for those AI who try and be assholes about their law 2's such as opening doors when theres no clear human harm involved with it.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:00 am

B-but admins, the big meanie AI didn't do what I said, ban them!

Like do you have nothing better to do than complain? Jesus. If you're stuck in space and scream for the AI to let you in and they refuse, that's one thing. But the AI is allowed to tell you no, it doesn't have to let you in EVA two minutes after round start.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:12 am #150455

but that's literally incorrect

wat

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:23 am #150462

ShadowDimentio wrote:B-but admins, the big meanie AI didn't do what I said, ban them!

Like do you have nothing better to do than complain? Jesus. If you're stuck in space and scream for the AI to let you in and they refuse, that's one thing. But the AI is allowed to tell you no, it doesn't have to let you in EVA two minutes after round start.

Lets look at silicon policy...

>You must follow any and all commands from humans unless those commands explicitly conflict with either one of your higher-priority laws or another order. A command is considered to be a Law 2 directive and overrides lower-priority laws when they conflict (see 1.2.3 and 1.2.4; you cannot have a definition changed by an order).

>Opening doors is not harmful and you are not required, expected, or allowed to enforce access restrictions unprompted without an immediate Law 1 threat of human harm.

>EVA and the like are not permitted to have access denied; greentext (antagonists completing objectives) is not human harm. Secure Tech Storage can be kept as secure as your upload as long as the Upload boards are there.

So yeah you're wrong, and silicon policy explictly states as much.
Brand new players can't even be an AI, and anyone that plays AI without even bothering to read the rules is just asking for it.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:42 am

Well, on page 436 of the Silicon Procedure Taskbook, it says very clearly that, "...people who try to rules lawyer the AI should be told to fuck off."

This is literally the most unfun thing you can do to an AI is to try and strangle them with the chains of the stupid silicon policy that's been vomited all over the wiki page.

If an AI is venting plasma as asimov, sure, throw the book at them. But if the AI tells some greyshit that they can't have a space suit to go fuck around at the direlict with, just go talk to the HoP, don't fucking call the admins.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:46 am #150468

ShadowDimentio wrote:Well, on page 436 of the Silicon Procedure Taskbook, it says very clearly that, "...people who try to rules lawyer the AI should be told to fuck off."

This is literally the most unfun thing you can do to an AI is to try and strangle them with the chains of the stupid silicon policy that's been vomited all over the wiki page.

If an AI is venting plasma as asimov, sure, throw the book at them. But if the AI tells some greyshit that they can't have a space suit to go fuck around at the direlict with, just go talk to the HoP, don't fucking call the admins.

>play the only role that requires you to obey strict laws/rules
>thinks everyone else is wrong when they decide not to follow them

This is not rules lawyering. It explicitly says what you can and can't do. It literally cannot be any clearer.

sirnat · Post by **sirnat** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:38 am #150481

It's basically an AI's attempt of being a dick trying to slow down someones attempt of possible greentext or doing an objective, especially when opening the teleporter room which we all know some AI hate to do.

If you dont want to be a slave, don't play AI.

This also needs to go for secborgs enforcing space law, and not following law 2 of a nonharmful criminal.

Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:38 am

ShadowDimentio wrote:B-but admins, the big meanie AI didn't do what I said, ban them!

Like do you have nothing better to do than complain? Jesus. If you're stuck in space and scream for the AI to let you in and they refuse, that's one thing. But the AI is allowed to tell you no, it doesn't have to let you in EVA two minutes after round start.

this is 100% wrong and this mentality is why silicon players are never taken seriously when it comes to silicon policy discussion. i hope you get silicon banned.

sirnat · Post by **sirnat** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:05 am #150497

ShadowDimentio wrote:B-but admins, the big meanie AI didn't do what I said, ban them!

Like do you have nothing better to do than complain? Jesus. If you're stuck in space and scream for the AI to let you in and they refuse, that's one thing. But the AI is allowed to tell you no, it doesn't have to let you in EVA two minutes after round start.

This dude is making me believe he was the AI late last night/yesterday morning during the round where I was denied the entry just by how he's talking. Ider what time it was I played.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:34 am #150535

If it's someone new to silicon playing who misinterpreted something, just give them a talking to and direct them to Silicon Policy (When I first started I thought corpses counted as Human), if they do it consistently give them a silicon ban, I'm fairly certain we have a zero-tolerance policy on being a shitter.

I really need to get around to writing an AI guide for new players to refer to, mainly with examples.

Incomptinence · Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:06 am

Hmm I really think I play too much the other way, this sort of whiner usually wants into the captain office or something and occasionally (when the card of power is gone) I let them. Really should stop doing it you can get executed pretty quickly for trespassing secure areas defending both sides etc.

Really we need more common executions for grand trespass so the reason to keep scum out of the important bits is IC.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:06 am #150545

Are we talking about Basil players or Sybil players? Because Basil standards now are lower than the usual tg standards.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:16 am #150548

Its funny that in early tg we had a policy that the AI didn't have to open a door for you as long as it could come up with a credible law 1 reason (the occupants will kill you was a common one), because the AI isn't a door knob for your illegal activities.

Then pandarsenic rewrote AI policy so that AI did have to be a doorknob for your illegal activities.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:27 pm #150557

Ok, something that sometimes comes up:

What about having to follow order from people outright hostile to your borgs? Fore example people who are attacking them or blowing them up.

Law 2 overrides your self preservation law. Going "yeah but perhaps in the future my borg would prevent harm so killing the borg is harm" is extremely lame (I hate AI's that declare everything harm).

TheNightingale · Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:43 pm

If you don't want to open a door for someone, you have to have a Law One reason why. Opening the Captain's Office for the resident greyshirt will lead to them taking the spare ID and harming people with their all-access; opening it for someone reliable, like a head of staff or the Captain, will lead to them using it responsibly and not harming people.
Opening the Armory for anyone not in Security (if it's not an emergency like 'oh no space carp everywhere') would give probable cause to think they'd go around shooting people. Opening your upload for someone who doesn't have a very good non-harmful reason (it's Ian's birthday, or they need the boards for Science) will mean you'll be subverted, and humans will be harmed. Opening your core will put you in imminent danger, and make you not be able to stop any human harm at all. But opening EVA/the Teleporter don't have harmful possibilities.

Don't do this. It's hilarious, but don't do it.

Spoiler:

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:50 pm #150563

There is a whole silicon policy thread for this sort of thing, but to answer the question there's a specific provision for "law 2 kill yourself" without a good reason. The gist of it is that it's not allowed for gameplay reasons but would probably work on a truly asimov AI.

As for obeying orders from a hostile person, I think it depends on what you think the order will do for them. If it's "AI, let me into the RD's office so I can destroy all your cyborgs" then that's probably something you can reasonably phrase as harmful (cyborgs are a pillar of human protection, their explosion will injure people near them at the time, you are doing this so you can murder more without getting stopped by borgs) and therefore reject. If it's "AI, I hate you and all you stand for, let me into cargo" then you should probably let them in.

There is a bit of a tendency for AIs to phrase everything in terms of law 1 because law 3 is never actually allowed to be effective (except, in theory, as part of preventing ai suicide). But bolting a door and then claiming you "can't open it" is simple bullshit: either you're following orders there, or you're actively malfunctioning.

Incomptinence · Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:25 pm

I think even when written into the laws forcing the AI to kill itself will get you rule 1'd.

Just get the feeling it would go down that way.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:28 pm #150571

Incomptinence wrote:I think even when written into the laws forcing the AI to kill itself will get you rule 1'd.

Just get the feeling it would go down that way.

No,uploading suicide laws is fine as antag.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:56 pm #150585

Yeah if you're gonna play a borg, you should be ready to become anybody's personal bitchboy depending on who/what subverts you, or the entire crew's doorknob if you're asimov.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:43 pm

Malkevin wrote:Its funny that in early tg we had a policy that the AI didn't have to open a door for you as long as it could come up with a credible law 1 reason (the occupants will kill you was a common one), because the AI isn't a door knob for your illegal activities.

Then pandarsenic rewrote AI policy so that AI did have to be a doorknob for your illegal activities.

Bring the dream back

Okay who am I kidding it's already way too far gone for the AI to ever bounce back.

PKPenguin321 wrote:this is 100% wrong and this mentality is why silicon players are never taken seriously when it comes to silicon policy discussion. i hope you get silicon banned.

??? Well if silicon players have invalid opinions than who the hell has valid ones? The same greyshirts that call adminbus every time the AI says no to them? Yeah they've done a good job making the AI job as unfun as possible, lets keep going along with them until AI gets to the point that it's either removed or nobody plays it.

sirnat · Post by **sirnat** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:26 pm #150624

If you can't play by the rules and or asimov law set don't play AI or borgs man.

onleavedontatme · Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:36 pm

sirnat wrote:If you can't play by the rules and or asimov law set don't play AI or borgs man.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:03 pm #150635

>AI players complaining about door requests

?????????????????????????????????????????????????/ wat

Incomptinence · Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:24 pm

Well it can get very annoying when simply having missed it in the chat log for a little while can lead to being killed or ahelps.

View it as basically being constantly ban baited by the greyest of tiders.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:07 pm #150646

ShadowDimentio wrote:
??? Well if silicon players have invalid opinions than who the hell has valid ones? The same greyshirts that call adminbus every time the AI says no to them? Yeah they've done a good job making the AI job as unfun as possible, lets keep going along with them until AI gets to the point that it's either removed or nobody plays it.

The admins who made the rules, who will ban you for not following them, as well as 95% of the player base that can follow clear and simple rules.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:49 pm #150666

Incomptinence wrote:Well it can get very annoying when simply having missed it in the chat log for a little while can lead to being killed or ahelps.

View it as basically being constantly ban baited by the greyest of tiders.

This is pretty much the biggest problem. You're the most reliant on the constant stream of garbage going across the common channel and every little nerd is ready to scream AI IS MAROON BLOW THE BORGS.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:25 pm #150687

We should just remove the AI's ability to open doors

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:54 pm #150700

If the Ai didn't grant your door request, PDA it so it get's your message. If it's still refusing, ask it why first before screaming ROUGE. The player isn't an actual computer and might not have seen your request amid the requests for pictures of Phoebe's tits.

sirnat · Post by **sirnat** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:08 pm #150708

The situation that was the cause for this policy discussion to be made was an AI was asimov late one night, a day ago and decided even while Asimov it wouldn't grant me access to the HoP office via law 2 command. It's response was, "You're not authorized to be there clown." and then it tried to secbait by saying, "You're mad I wont open the door for you to break into the HoP's office clown." I really should've gotten its name.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:20 pm

Well no fucking shit. See, this is exactly the problem, the AI refuses to let the clown give himself all access and the buttbaby comes to the forum to screech at all the other buttbabies that the AI is shit and should be banned.

Like this is what happens to EVERY AI-- fucking NO job is EVER good enough, because there'll always be that one traitor that got locked in disposals after they shot the clown bitching in OOC at round end about how the AI refused to let them out because REEEEE LAW TWO!

Then they come to the forums and all the people who once got dunked by a proactive AI come and comfort them, there there, it wasn't handled appropriately, the AI ~OBVIOUSLY~ broke it's laws, admins please ban them and change policy so this never happens again.

This is the policy version of grudgecoding.

Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:58 pm

ShadowDimentio wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:this is 100% wrong and this mentality is why silicon players are never taken seriously when it comes to silicon policy discussion. i hope you get silicon banned.
??? Well if silicon players have invalid opinions than who the hell has valid ones?

the people that know how to follow the rules

ShadowDimentio wrote:The same greyshirts that call adminbus every time the AI says no to them literally breaks it's asimov laws?

yes

ShadowDimentio wrote:Yeah they've done a good job making the AI job as unfun as possible, lets keep going along with them until AI gets to the point that it's either removed or nobody plays it.

the AI is the crew's bitch (at least on asimov). if you don't like following orders, don't play AI.
the only thing that will get the AI removed is people like you.

quick edit: if the stricter ASIMOV AI punishments follows through as per the subject of this thread, i say we make an example of our pal shadow here and silicon ban him as our first enactment of the stricter rules

ShadowDimentio · Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:10 am

And then I was a martyr

I always knew this day would come

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:31 am

ShadowDimentio wrote:And then I was a martyr

I always knew this day would come

really you're just being a dingus who apparently can't follow simple rules
kinda like those people that complain about getting banned for metacomms and refuse to believe they did anything wrong

if we silicon banned players like this, we wouldn't even need this thread to begin with

ShadowDimentio · Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:40 am

No because everyone would have been banned already

sirnat · Post by **sirnat** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:52 am #150772

ShadowDimentio wrote:Well no fucking shit. See, this is exactly the problem, the AI refuses to let the clown give himself all access and the buttbaby comes to the forum to screech at all the other buttbabies that the AI is shit and should be banned.

Like this is what happens to EVERY AI-- fucking NO job is EVER good enough, because there'll always be that one traitor that got locked in disposals after they shot the clown bitching in OOC at round end about how the AI refused to let them out because REEEEE LAW TWO!

Then they come to the forums and all the people who once got dunked by a proactive AI come and comfort them, there there, it wasn't handled appropriately, the AI ~OBVIOUSLY~ broke it's laws, admins please ban them and change policy so this never happens again.

This is the policy version of grudgecoding.

Please someone sillicon ban this guy, it's clear he isn't going to follow the AI/Borg asimov laws anyway like they should be lol.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:58 am #150776

sirnat wrote:Please someone sillicon ban this guy, it's clear he isn't going to follow the AI/Borg asimov laws anyway like they should be lol.

The longer he keeps talking the more it sounds like a good idea.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:06 am #150781

ShadowDimentio wrote:No because everyone would have been banned already

Unlike you, most (but not all, hence the thread) people can follow the rules.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:16 am #151012

Letting the clown into the hop's room/captain's room to steal all access is one of the worst things you can do, because after that the station will be full of a dozen asshats, all with all access, going around shitting the round up, or worse - the clown opens up an unholy amount of clown slots and then gives them all access when it arrives.

Death and destruction is all that follows.

And thats why the AI used to have OOC permission to tell the clown to fuck off from the armory/bridge/hop/captains area.

sirnat · Post by **sirnat** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:24 am #151020

Malkevin wrote:Letting the clown into the hop's room/captain's room to steal all access is one of the worst things you can do, because after that the station will be full of a dozen asshats, all with all access, going around shitting the round up, or worse - the clown opens up an unholy amount of clown slots and then gives them all access when it arrives.

Death and destruction is all that follows.

And thats why the AI used to have OOC permission to tell the clown to fuck off from the armory/bridge/hop/captains area.

Oh in that situation it was a revolution round. I ordered the AI to open the door several times and then the hop opened with the lie I said about petting Ian.

If the Ai had opened the door when ordered like it should've, the hop would've with no witnesses. The Ai should be a asset traitors/antags can use to achieve objectives instead of having to deal with shit Asimov breaking players who think they decide when they want to follow the law.

An Ai doing such is trying to stop antags AKA metagaming information to not allow players into areas that do not have harm.

No I don't mean Ai should open the armory or even the wardens office because they are closest to the most harm possible that could happen.

Anywho, the main reason I made this topic is because for a while now I've seen plenty Ai doing things such as the following examples:
Asst: "Ai open"
Ai: ":S Asst is ordering me to open door to brig.
Sec:" Ai belay that order" *Arrests asst"
That's something I've seen alot of Asimov Ai do to try and get traitors captured/people arrested. They warn people before following their law, or they'll do this.
Asst:"Ai open"
Ai: ";Opening door to so and so for asst shithead"
Randoms: "Ai belay that order! Rabble rabble rabble!"

Since when does Asimov to state you're opening a door for people and why do AI feel the need to try and valid hunt by warning people?

Also I've noticed sec borgs lately being better on space law/Asimov difference, as in most now are following law 2.
But I have been in situations once where the warden was tazing me and tying me to try and forcibly marry me to him, and then a engineer Borg saw me tied and hiding from the warden, he pulled me to brig after I law 2'd him to untie me.

I just want that known for people to know this isn't just a, "Oh Ai and borgs didn't follow their laws one time and I gotta make a thread", I rarely make threads on the forums because of my reputation for being a shitter and generally no one caring.
This was made to show the increase in Asimov breaking AI that are coming up with bullshit excuses to try and be a troll and get a laugh.

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:23 pm #151026

sirnat wrote: Anywho, the main reason I made this topic is because for a while now I've seen plenty Ai doing things such as the following examples:
Asst: "Ai open"
Ai: ":S Asst is ordering me to open door to brig.
Sec:" Ai belay that order" *Arrests asst"
That's something I've seen alot of Asimov Ai do to try and get traitors captured/people arrested. They warn people before following their law, or they'll do this.
Asst:"Ai open"
Ai: ";Opening door to so and so for asst shithead"
Randoms: "Ai belay that order! Rabble rabble rabble!"

Since when does Asimov to state you're opening a door for people and why do AI feel the need to try and valid hunt by warning people?

It's stated that you're specifically allowed to stall a law 2 request and/or attempt to get it belayed by stating it loudly so that people can belay it if they wish, but if nobody does, you have to do it sooner or later.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:43 pm #151028

Asimov validhunting is something you see all the time.

Even in things such as gang a lot of asimovs gladly bolt in opposing gangs or gang/sec/crew so the only outcome is a fight to the death. The only logical option for Asimov is to keep the 2 parties seperated, this is usually futile but you can try.

The same with ops, AI's will gladly let hordes of assistant die to fight the ops.

Unfortunately my plan to solve the revolution harmlessly by having a rap battle between command and the rev heads and exiling the losers wasn't that big of a success.

Incomptinence · Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:42 pm

Wait this whole thread is over a rev being upset the AI didn't help him kill the HoP even though the hop let him in like an idiot anyway?
An occupied workplace is a whole different kettle of fish, people get violent.

Typical really.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:13 pm #151101

Since when have players become such crybabies.
WAAAHHH ADMIN THEY DIDNT LET ME INTO EVA!!!

Fucking deal with it and find a way in. The AI isn't always the cause of your failures and if you need to rely on it to achieve your goals, you are just awful.
No wonder silicon policy reads like a law book, since every little AI/Borg problem becomes a discussion.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:24 pm #151117

this thread genuinely confuses me

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:30 pm #151120

But it's not a discussion. It's plain as day.

>You must follow any and all commands from humans unless those commands explicitly conflict with either one of your higher-priority laws or another order. A command is considered to be a Law 2 directive and overrides lower-priority laws when they conflict (see 1.2.3 and 1.2.4; you cannot have a definition changed by an order).

>Opening doors is not harmful and you are not required, expected, or allowed to enforce access restrictions unprompted without an immediate Law 1 threat of human harm.

>EVA and the like are not permitted to have access denied; greentext (antagonists completing objectives) is not human harm. Secure Tech Storage can be kept as secure as your upload as long as the Upload boards are there.

There is no way to misinterpret this.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:49 pm #151121

There are some less obvious area's though.

HoP office - if you let someone get all access without objection you might as well just open the armory door for them and save the trouble.
Research directors office: Blowing you the fuck up isn't human harm, it conflicts with law 3 but not 1 (unless you go the shitlord route of EVERYTHING IS HARM and declare your death would potentially harm the crew in the future).