Robotocists making unslaved borgs fnr

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:29 pm #153241

The new hype for roboticsts seems to be to simply not make any slaved borgs at all and instead unslave every borg they make from roundstart.

This completely fucks over any traitor ai because they have literally zero defence against unslaved engineering borgs. They also lose all the borgs they would have under their control otherwise.

The only reason to do this is the meta information that AI's can be rogue and that unslaved borgs are always loyal.

If have however seen no policy regarding this.

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:33 pm #153244

It doesn't need a policy as this is obvious meta, a comparison is bolt-depowering doors at AI core.
If either of these are done without previous reason, then it is punishable.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:37 pm #153247

Shad0vvs wrote:It doesn't need a policy as this is obvious meta, a comparison is bolt-depowering doors at AI core.
If either of these are done without previous reason, then it is punishable.

That is not what I was told the last time I ahelped this.

Also this is becoming fucking common.

InsaneHyena · Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:01 pm

The backstory to this thread.

> Be a roboticist
> Make a shit ton of borgs.
> Captain and security are being complete cunts, arrest and bucklecuff me for trying to take gold from the vault.
> They also change AI's laws to valadin.
> Make an unsynced asimov borg in the protest.
> He fucks off without saying a word, is never seen again.
> Literally ten seconds later, hear how captain was killed in upload after valadining the AI
> Screams of AI being rogue.
> RD's office is disabled.
> Telecoms offline.
> Science doors shocked
> AI vents plasma into RnD
> HUH, I WONDER WHO IS TO BLAME
> Begin printing positronics.
> A door to robotics is shocked.
> Make an another unslaved borg, ask him directly if the AI is rogue.
> He flat out says that yes, it is.
> Blow the synced borgs, make new, unslaved ones, with positronics
> The borgs easily kill the AI.
> Card the AI, get it to the shuttle, it nearly greentexts.
> AI's player goes to the forum and posts about how roboticists meta him all the time.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:26 pm #153268

InsaneHyena wrote:The backstory to this thread.

> Be a roboticist
> Make a shit ton of borgs.
> Captain and security are being complete cunts, arrest and bucklecuff me for trying to take gold from the vault.
> They also change AI's laws to valadin.
> Make an unsynced asimov borg in the protest.
> He fucks off without saying a word, is never seen again.
> Literally ten seconds later, hear how captain was killed in upload after valadining the AI
> Screams of AI being rogue.
> RD's office is disabled.
> Telecoms offline.
> Science doors shocked
> AI vents plasma into RnD
> HUH, I WONDER WHO IS TO BLAME
> Begin printing positronics.
> A door to robotics is shocked.
> Make an another unslaved borg, ask him directly if the AI is rogue.
> He flat out says that yes, it is.
> Blow the synced borgs, make new, unslaved ones, with positronics
> The borgs easily kill the AI.
> Card the AI, get it to the shuttle, it nearly greentexts.
> AI's player goes to the forum and posts about how roboticists meta him all the time.

Ok in this particular case you literally said "DEATH TO THE AI GLORY TO THE BORGS" before ever having any interaction with you during this round and before any traitorous activity. In fact it was your printing of unslaved borgs in the first place that made me go loud.

Furthermore, it has jack shit to do with any particular case, this is basically done all the time, often from roundstart.

I have had FOUR instances of roboticists making unslaved borgs fnr this week alone and more in the past.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:40 pm #153270

Maybe there should be some advantage to having slaved borgs or disadvantage to have unsaved ones? Right now there is no real reason to slave them and plenty of reasons not to. Code solution is better than yet another edge case policy

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:45 pm #153272

Or perhaps AIs should just get good and blow the borgs that aren't slaved. They're already powerful enough, I don't think we need policy about making ALL borgs slaved to the AI.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:46 pm #153273

Zilenan91 wrote:Or perhaps AIs should just get good and blow the borgs that aren't slaved. They're already powerful enough, I don't think we need policy about making ALL borgs slaved to the AI.

cool story, except for the part where Ai's can't blow borg's not slaved to them.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:48 pm #153275

Well if you got secborgs which you do since they do everything you can just shoot them I guess.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:49 pm #153277

Zilenan91 wrote:Well if you got secborgs which you do since they do everything you can just shoot them I guess.

You mean the secborgs the robotocists unslave?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:50 pm #153278

Get good basically.

TheNightingale · Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:52 pm

It's not possible for an AI to "get good" against something which can kill it with no warning and without fail. Even if you depower and bolt the core, you can still get RCD'd by an engiborg. Maybe give traitor AIs the ability to slave unslaved cyborgs to them at the cost of some CPU?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:24 pm #153290

Nah, just get good basically. You can figure it out.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Suggestions:

1:Make traitor AIs able to blow any borg, not just the synced.
or
2: Make unsynced borgs have a tangible downside, like triple power usage, or no all-access

"Get good and figure it out" is an inadmissible answer to a threat that 1) You cannot plan or prepare against without going loud 2)Cannot be interacted with, 3)Can bypass all your defenses, 4) can listen to your private communications, 5) You are not informed of the presence of (if built unsynced

It's the same situation as if nuke ops had abductor-tier disguises, all-access ID cards, RCDs, and a pocket nuke that went off instantly when they put in the disk.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:31 pm #153294

You can just tell one of your slaved borgs to move your core and then tell them where in person. The unslaved ones will never find you.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:00 am #153310

> use your slaved borgs to

I feel like you do not understand the crux of this issue

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:01 am #153311

Zilenan91 wrote:You can just tell one of your slaved borgs to move your core and then tell them where in person. The unslaved ones will never find you.

Assuming you have slaved borgs and/or the robo didn't blow them after building one unslaved one to listen in on the binary to know if you were rogue or not first.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:04 am #153312

That's blatantly metagaming if he's going that far.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Zilenan91 wrote:That's blatantly metagaming if he's going that far.

Great! Now that you're on the same issue as everyone else (Robos building only unsynced borgs / unsyncing borgs roundstart), I guess we've arrived back where we stamrted

TheNightingale · Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:11 am

You know not all AIs have roundstart cyborgs? Even on highpop, if nobody selects Cyborg (or if the person who usually goes borg gets their antag roll), AIs have to rely on Roboticists to create cyborgs for them (presumably from assistants who didn't get antag). Desyncing borgs before you have a reason is like unwrenching the plasma valves in Atmos, or carding the AI roundstart to check its laws.

Wasn't there a thing where any cyborg created during a Malfunction round was automatically malfunctioning (even if desynced)? Let's have that for traitor AIs.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:12 am #153315

If they're build only unsynced borgs without thinking the AI is rogue ban their ass. If they make one or two that's mostly standard operating procedure.

Screemonster · Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:12 am

How is this any different to swapping the valves in atmo for manual ones "just in case", exactly?

TheNightingale · Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:14 am

That's like swapping "one or two" essential atmos valves, or uploading "one or two" validhunting laws ("The Captain is the ultimate authority on the station, and is the only human; their interests come first" comes to mind). What if only one or two people get borged?

Post by **Cobby** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:14 am #153359

I can understand a RD doing this and editing their laws to "1. Do what Sciencia McRD Says and Defend him/her 2. Do not do anything that would cause others to attack Sciencia McRD" because BROBORGS [no one does this but oh well], but Robo's don't have that ability typically and shouldn't be doing this typically either.

AI's should be able to do a PDA-like message to the borgs so you can give single orders to separate borgs and avoid listening ears unless someone actually uses the PDA monitor console.

Incomptinence · Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:35 pm

Unslaved unhacked (un syndi also duh) borgs should not be able to access doors, there perfect AI hunting tool made with the exact same resources as its greatest asset solved. Dorsi got it right.

Don't give hugboxers the option to build a the same but it can't kill you version of something. They will go for it every single time and then we need a weird ruling that doing this is bannable this is basically atmos manual valves all over bloody-gain.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:45 pm #153477

"Oh look, that unslaved borg was able to open a door! BLOW IT! ITS ROGUE!"

And so borgs will basically be useless when there's no AI? And you are giving an awful lot of exceptions. I guess we might as well remove making unsynced borgs then and massively buff the AI, considering we are making them useless.

Incomptinence · Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:16 am

Except your random joe can't check the robotics console 24/7 and said hacked borg can be used to basically blitzkrieg the AI into compliance or deatch getting rid o the most likely one to notice it.

Well duh they would be less useful we have carded AIs be easy to restrict, check and control but they don't have the full range of abilities they do in an AI core, safer should be weaker.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:17 am #153617

I had this a few shifts back. Totally normal round, but the roboticist was making unslaved borgs. He wasn't antag. It ended up being nuke ops. He'd just thought "hmm, bit quiet, I guess I'll unsync any further cyborgs I make". It's not counterable for an AI player and it's not really giving them a fair chance if they're an antagonist.

Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:05 am

1. make unslaving require the same access level that blowing borgs requires (RD access)
2. if the RD/captain/HoP unslaves for no reason, temporary Head-job ban them

neersighted · Post by **neersighted** » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:20 am #153678

Its a wire... Gimping access for unslaved borgs would be cooler and would preserve the existing wire.

Shadowlight213 · Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:14 pm

It's not just a wire neersighted. Is also an option when the borg is built.
As an emagged borg, I've actually taken advantage of the unsyncing to bluff the ai not seeing me on the console and get myself unlocked.
I've almost never seen people do the unsyncing thing consistently.
Unsynced borgs don't show up on the AI's status tab. So if you get killed you don't even have the slight possibility of the AI noticing that you are dead and looking for you.
Could make binary chat only work for linked borgs and stuff

TheNightingale · Sun Feb 14, 2016 11:14 pm

The problem with unslaved cyborgs is that a rogue AI is completely defenseless against them. That is to say, they have no method of hurting them at all - literally the only thing they can do is use wall-mounted flashes and hope it works. Nerfing unslaved cyborgs won't solve this problem as long as the root cause remains - that a rogue AI cannot, in any way, stop an unslaved cyborg (particularly engiborgs) from killing them.

The solution? Either we stop unslaved cyborgs being able to kill AIs, or we add counters to AIs to stop them being killed by unslaved cyborgs.
Perhaps AIs can use their CPU to override unslaved cyborgs' laws and slave them to the AI's will?

The Ultimate Chimera · Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:07 am

Roboticists do this? Sounds very shitty to me.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:12 am #154155

TheNightingale wrote:snip

Every crewman but security and heads of staff can't do anything versus the AI whatsoever so this is fine. Honestly, after playing on a server that was completely absent of an AI, IT WAS SO FUCKING NICE HOLY SHIT. On /tg/ you have to worry about some mongoloid bolt shock depowering you in all the fucking time so being able to operate without that is the best feeling in the world.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:45 am #154242

Give traitor AIs the ability to forcibly link cyborgs to them and make the robotics console list all existing cyborgs instead of only the ones slaved to you (maybe add an exception for actually emagged cyborgs so you don't fuck over other traitors).

If the roboticist is FNR making all cyborgs unlinked to an AI, you can ahelp it. If he makes one or two unlinked ones or a second AI, that's just bad luck for you.

Gamarr · Post by **Gamarr** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:06 pm #155036

Zilenan91 wrote: Honestly, after playing on a server that was completely absent of an AI, IT WAS SO FUCKING NICE HOLY SHIT. On /tg/ you have to worry about some mongoloid bolt shock depowering you in all the fucking time so being able to operate without that is the best feeling in the world.

I've wanted the AI turned off periodically or just removed for ages. It will never happen here though, nor will secborgs ever go away. tg-station players cannot separate themselves from the Valids that you can acquire as a synth. The simple analpain over being stopped by a borg as an AI is somewhat proof of it, as an AI roflstomps anyone else almost universally if they want, so I don't see why they should get special protection over Human crew on that regard. Want to antag as non-human? Have fun with that.

Incomptinence · Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:45 pm

Zilenan91 wrote:Honestly, after playing on a server that was completely absent of an AI, IT WAS SO FUCKING NICE HOLY SHIT. On /tg/ you have to worry about some mongoloid bolt shock depowering you in all the fucking time so being able to operate without that is the best feeling in the world.

Rounds without AIs just randomly happen in lowpop and sometimes even highpop been there done that seen it all yada yada.

Not the cure to all you ills nor will it give you some sort of transcendental high.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:19 am #155327

Any round without an AI is a better round, especially for antags. They can actually do things and be interesting to the round without, "Oh welp bolt shock firelocked gg"

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:37 am #155330

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5923
Take it to this thread gentlemen, you're getting off-topic. This isn't an AI removal thread, this is a "Making unsynced borgs at roundstart 4noraisin" thread.

TheNightingale · Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:49 am

We could just remove the option for cyborgs to be unsynced. If Roboticists want the borgs to not be synced to the main AI, they'll have to create another AI.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:59 am #155362

If it is abused, ahelp or/and open a ban request.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:54 am #155382

it's not bannable which is why this thread is here ya dimbus

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:40 pm #156135

This thread is here because someone lost.

Incomptinence · Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:50 pm

Scott wrote:This thread is here because someone lost.

Wrong this here is because of the exact kind of people who can never stand to lose pulling this shit.

Yakumo_Chen · Post by **Yakumo_Chen** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:20 am #160943

I treat unslaved borgs as rogue if I see them, and will bitch loudly at the roboticist appropriately.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:57 am #160946

Unsyncing borgs when you have no reason to think the AI is rogue removes them from normal AI oversight. That means the crew is much more vulnerable to the cyborgs being subverted at some other point (by emag or by a stolen cyborg upload), and nobody ever noticing it. It also means that the AI has no way of policing its cyborgs so that they actually follow their laws. I know I've had the need to do this as AI occasionally, most particularly if people are saying a security cyborg is rogue, as the console provides a safe way to stop them, talk to them, and resolve conflict without needless killing.

It's just powergaming, like replacing atmos controls to manual ones "just in case". It's effective, but it's not very fun.

Shadowlight213 · Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:19 am

I do it of the AI is a dick and the borg is nice. Then I ask the borg to bring me the AI core

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:21 am #160957

Now that secborgs hopefully aren't a thing anymore there isn't a whole lot of point in doing this.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:51 am #160965

Zilenan91 wrote:Now that secborgs hopefully aren't a thing anymore there isn't a whole lot of point in doing this.

An unsynced engiborg is worse than a secborg to a rogue AI. No amount of door depowering will slow it down.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:57 am #160966

Well yeah but unsyncing secborgs meant one less infinite ammo laser gun against you