Disallow murder sprees on Basil.

[TheNightingale]

I propose that, on Basil, murder sprees be disallowed, even as an antagonist. Simple. You can kill people if they're your objective, you can kill people who are attacking you, you can kill people if they had it coming; but you can't kill people for just being there.

Why?: Because Basil is virtually always lowpop (it hits 40 at its highest points, and 15-20 is the usual amount), and the people who play on it don't appreciate murderboners. It's not fun for the victims, and on a station of about 20 people, the victims will be the vast majority of the crew.
How?: Anyone caught murderboning on Basil gets slapped with a dayban from both servers (as individual server bans aren't a thing).

Are you just saying this because "i ded pls ban"?
It's been a problem for a while; people from the hub or from Sybil come over, get antag, then murderbone with it. It's not fun for anyone but the killer, and since Basil is almost always lowpop, it's very difficult to stop them (especially if they're prepared).

But doesn't it infringe on antagonists?
Yes, that's the point. Even antagonists have to abide by the rules, and killing everyone just because you can is Being A Dick.

Why not on Sybil too?
Because the Sybil culture is more adapted to favour combat over roleplay, and Sybil is usually populated; it's not necessary there.

Why can't you just git gud?
It's a roleplaying game. Why can't you just roleplay?

No, seriously, what's stopping you from killing them?
Aside from the fact that we shouldn't have to? Our culture is adapted to roleplay, not combat, and when someone goes around shooting everyone they see, that becomes even more of a problem. There's often only one person in Security, and if they're killed and have their gear/access taken (especially if it's the Captain), then there simply aren't enough people to stop it. Basil is a medium RP server (Sybil is a light RP server, for comparison, and NoX is no RP), and it's not in the spirit of roleplay or sportsmanship to wordlessly murder everyone.

So how do you define a murder spree? Is it a murder spree if...
I know it when I see it.

But I think it's fine!
Do you play on Sybil?

Well, yes, but-
That's why, then. This is about Basil specifically; although Sybil might be willing to put up with murder sprees, Basil isn't.

[VincVsVincent]

In my opinion you should change it that only people with the objective to escape alone are allowed to murderbone.

[TheNightingale]

It doesn't count if they're doing it for their objective. Killing people in Escape is fine. Saying "anyone who comes in the Escape hallway gets shot, I'm hijacking this shuttle with no survivors" and then shooting people in the hallway is also fine. Killing people in Escape, then killing the Security Officer who comes to stop you is also fine. Going to each and every escape pod and shooting the occupants, however, isn't, and nor is killing people completely uninvolved in your mission.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Nah

[TheNightingale]

Nah

Usually in threads like this, so others can understand their way of thinking better, people give reasons along with their opinions. Apparently not always.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Nah

Usually in threads like this, so others can understand their way of thinking better, people give reasons along with their opinions. Apparently not always.

SS13 is a game about mass violence, solidarity in the face of violence, and unstoppable engines of murder being dunked by a clown hiding in a closet with a toolbox. "If you kill lot on my server I get you ban" is kinda against what a lot of people here consider the spirit of /tg/.

[Pascal123]

There is no fun in two to three chucklefucks running around with loot from the gateway, an all-access and cargo/armory killing people, even antags throwing out the codewords.

Not for anyone else, anyways. Its powergaming, bland, and contributes nothing to the round but annoyances. One second its all calm, your having fun. Everyone is enjoying the shift, when Murderous Antag #43689 Shows up with all the gear in the world, just to kill everyone.

Hey guys, look at me, I looted the armory, i have the captains spare ID, I have a blood-red hardsuit, E-Shield, holoparasite, five C20RS, and a double e-sword, with enough ammo to fuel an army. Oh... hang on i gotta get some more stuff from the Cargo shuttle... Yeah, turns out i'm a changeling, too... Oh, and i can shoot fireballs, Cause why not? After all, i'm gonna need it to kill a bunch of unnarmed crewmembers. Aren't i just the most robust and skilled player alive?

[oranges]

I think it's pretty bad, SoS has been playing recently and he said it was really bad.

[TheNightingale]

SS13 is a game about mass violence, solidarity in the face of violence, and unstoppable engines of murder being dunked by a clown hiding in a closet with a toolbox. "If you kill lot on my server I get you ban" is kinda against what a lot of people here consider the spirit of /tg/.

In essence, SS13 is a game; and games are there so you can have fun. Games exist to be entertaining - and roleplaying games exist to be entertaining through roleplay. There's solidarity/clowns in the face of mass violence (read: every nukeops round ever), and there's killing defenseless people just because you can. We don't just want SS13 to be fun for one person, or even two - it should be fun for everyone, optimally, and if a person can't have fun without ruining other peoples' fun, this might not be the right game for them.

I wouldn't say /tg/ even has a unified spirit - there's the powergaming, validhunting Sybil crowd, and the metafriending, circlejerking Basil crowd, and they each have different values and see different things as important. To Basil, it's important that people roleplay and take into account others' feelings when making actions - and to kill many people where you don't have to, ruining their fun in the process, isn't taking their feelings into account. I'd go so far as to say it's being a dick, in fact, which is violating the first rule we have.

If you like mass violence and solidarity in the face of it, that's fine, that's what Operative rounds are for, and what the gateway's for. But God forbid someone actually find something other than MLG Pro 20-0 k/d ratios interesting. In the end, this only applies to Basil - and I'd wager many of those who disagree with it won't be affected by it anyway. I've yet to find someone who routinely plays on Basil, has an appreciation of the culture and people who play there, and still supports running around with nine guns killing everyone.

[ShadowDimentio]

No.

[TheNightingale]

Usually in threads like this, so others can understand their way of thinking better, people give reasons along with their opinions. Apparently not always.

[The Ultimate Chimera]

In my honest opinion, Sybil seems more like the server for murderbone. I agree that if you had the escape-alone objective as a tator you could murderbone no problem, but just in general? Why?

[Shaps-cloud]

Murderboning on lowpop is pretty shitty in general, at least Sybil usually has a population that can put up a fight

[TheNightingale]

Well, murderboning people might indicate a traumatic experience in the past, possibly one which has impacted on the present day. It's entirely possible that people who garner entertainment from causing the despair of others, people who enjoy murderboning... maybe they themselves were murderboned? If they had a traumatic experience, it's not unlikely that they'd express these repressed feelings through the medium of SS13.

I think they enjoy the feeling of power they get by clicking 2D spacemans; they get a kick out of it, and aren't too bothered by what others think. There's no doubt that they're aware of the disapproval they'll receive, but evidently, it doesn't impact their decision - perhaps they do it specifically to get negative attention (because negative attention is better than no attention?). If it was purely for the violence aspect, they'd play on NoX or Traitorstation, or places where it's culturally acceptable and encouraged to act in such a manner - but they don't, and so that indicates either they're doing it for the shock factor, they genuinely want negative attention, or they prefer to prey on unsuspecting roleplayers.

Either way, it's not the sort of behaviour that belongs on Basil, I'd argue; whether or not it belongs on Sybil isn't for me to determine, but explicitly going out of your way to ruin others' fun knowingly and without reason is unjustifiable.

[Takeguru]

It's been this way for so long that changing it would be stupid.

Sure, getting killed sucks, but we have more ways than ever to get back into the round in some capacity and we have 2 servers.

Also, I don't think I've pulled enough murderbones off to make up for the times I've been killed by a changeling squad absorbing literally everyone so we can't ban it yet.

[TheNightingale]

Established precedent isn't always right; if a convincing argument can be presented that something is bad, it should be removed. I'd like to think there's a few convincing arguments. Note that this only applies to Basil, so you won't have to worry about it being banned on Sybil (yet) - if you've been killed by changeling squads absorbing literally everyone on Basil, that's not something you'll have to fear any more, since it'll be against the rules.

I don't see it as about being killed so much as about having one's fun interrupted - it's okay to die, and sometimes it can even be entertaining (for example, if your killer roleplays with you beforehand - you being given a last request, perhaps). But wordlessly being murdered by a passerby isn't fun, and above all, it shows that they're unconcerned with the fun of other players. It'd be different if someone kidnapped, roleplayed-with, and killed, their victims, but this isn't about that. This is about people who run around with {insert robust weapon, e.g. C20r here} and {insert robust support item, e.g. energy shield, here} and kill everyone they see.

The "you can get back into the round" argument might work on Sybil, but on Basil, there isn't always a way to do that - I've been in many rounds where, for one reason or another, I've died, and there were no other options available. It's rare that there'll be both a Scientist and a Miner on staff, so posibrains aren't seen often, and people just plain forget about making drones or adamantine golems. There's nobody around to request a pAI, either.

[Zilenan91]

I support this. It's absolutely cancer to go on Basil and see people be literally unstoppable with all the gear in the world.

[PKPenguin321]

antagonist freedom should not be infringed on unless validhunting is infringed on, and at that point you've essentially made the server a higher RP level which isn't something we have the tools to enforce at the moment

suggested solutions:
when somebody murderbones on basil, admins should be encouraged to shake things up

[Zilenan91]

Basil is really just a different server than Sybil. Lot of hubbies who are pretty new to the game and not a whole lot of super robust people. Eventually somebody goes on a murder spree and everybody dies, and sometimes this happens multiple rounds in a row which isn't very fun for anyone really.

[Pascal123]

The thing is, these guys get so boring, bland, and powergamey about their big murderspree that they literally gather enough gear, spells, powers, what have you, to make it so even deathsquads cannot stand against them. All while stroking their dick ICly about how robust they are.

[firecage]

No

[TheNightingale]

antagonist freedom should not be infringed on unless validhunting is infringed on, and at that point you've essentially made the server a higher RP level which isn't something we have the tools to enforce at the moment

suggested solutions:
when somebody murderbones on basil, admins should be encouraged to shake things up

But doesn't it infringe on antagonists?
Yes, that's the point. Even antagonists have to abide by the rules, and killing everyone just because you can is Being A Dick.

The server is a higher RP level. It's medium RP, as opposed to light RP. We wouldn't allow spacing someone for having a balloon, either, and we already look down on people who validhunt when they don't have to (e.g. cremating the RD after you see them deconstruct an EMP kit).
Basil does have dedicated admins who can enforce this; or if a murder spree is taking place, someone can hop to Sybil and go "Hey, they're breaking the rurus, can you ban them?".
Admins 'shaking things up' just encourages the killer to keep killing; "If I kill enough, the admins will send some tougher opponents against me!". Antagonists should be encouraged when they do something encourageworthy.

[Pascal123]

Admins 'shaking things up' just encourages the killer to keep killing; "If I kill enough, the admins will send some tougher opponents against me!". Antagonists should be encouraged when they do something encourageworthy.

And the truth of the matter will be that the majority of the murderboners would actually be too unrobust, and likely won't succeed in fighting something that can actually fight back... I like it.

[Malkevin]

Murder boners are the result of discouraging valid hunting and especially discouraging sec players (murder boners wouldn't be able to loot the armoury if someone was actually there to guard it)


This thread makes me think of a black man in the ghetto yelling "where's da police?" as his suv is carjacked and driven off whilst run dmc's fuck da police is blaring out.

[TheNightingale]

Nobody's there to guard it because there are fifteen people on the station, of which one or two are Security, and both of those are out patrolling and/or roleplaying with people. Unlike Sybil, a Security Officer might be the station's only line of defense, not the first. If a prospective murderboner can get past that first roadblock (which is easily done with gateway/uplink/changeling gear), it's unlikely that they'll be stopped at all.

I'd disagree with your claim that "murderboners are the result of discouraging validhunting" - when people validhunt and immediately kill every antagonist they see, antagonists know that if they don't go loud and kill everyone, they'll be killed by validhunting Security/Assistants. Example: Wizard rounds. Most Wizards are hostile, because they know if they try anything else, they'll get dunked. The few that still try gimmicks (thereby forfeiting their robustness, in many cases) find themselves killed immediately. Validhunting is a direct cause of murderboning, and murderboning just encourages people to validhunt whenever they can (so they don't get killed by the antagonist they released).

Remember that this only applies to Basil; you'll still be allowed to keep the MLG Pro 420 noscopes on Sybil. Additionally, it might be a good idea to play on Basil, to get some idea of how the culture works. If your experience with murderboners is based on your time on Sybil, that might not accurately reflect how they're perceived on Basil.

[Malkevin]

My point is that you get cut down like cattle because you've moved on from the days of walking about with a stun prod/gloves or syringe gun full of date rape drugs, you don't defend yourselves because you see anyone with those weapons as "dirty valid hunters"

Funny enough one of the last times I played on basil I late arrived as hos to hear reports of a murder boner on the loose. I spotted him in the hall, he wasn't robust in the slightest and seemed to freeze in fear at the sight of me before bumbling about try to run off.
I tased and lased him.
I got called a fascist...

[Saegrimr]

Yeah yesterday Mekhi showed up and everybody in dead chat was crying about the evil Sybil shitlord there to powergame and ruin everybody's fun.

[TheNightingale]

If Basil culture has evolved far enough that we don't feel the need to walk around with "self-defence" tools, that's a good thing, and that should be encouraged. If the players on a server don't want something, why should that something be allowed?

[Steelpoint]

Because at that point why keep up the façade of Basil being a /tg/station server? I disagree with this mainly in that its against the principle's of /tg/station.

However I think this thread's existence simply showcase's the ideological divide between the two servers

[DrPillzRedux]

You came to the wrong place to play if you want more than light RP and rules to prevent pointless murder. The general concencus is that if you can't deal with dumb murderbone, a (shitty) tg tradition, you should go somewhere else.

Lowpop or not, server community mindset or not, it's still tg.

[TheNightingale]

When you say "the principles of /tg/station" and "/tg/ tradition", you really mean "the principles/traditions of Sybil". Basil has different values, and our rounds are different; go on and ask what people think about murderboning, and I can guarantee the response will be different to what Sybil players would say. As evidenced from this thread, people who play on Basil don't accept behaviour like that; and changing it on Basil in no way affects the traditions and principles of Sybil. For a long time, it's been an unwritten rule that "you don't go on murder sprees on Basil", and it's high time that was formalised.

[Takeguru]

Separating the rules of Bagil and Sybil is a bit of a slippery slope.
What's bannable on Bagil next? Slipping?

I'm not an admin, but I can safely say it'd be an annoyance to enforce two differing sets of rules, especially for the admins that operate on both servers.

[Pascal123]

It doesn't exactly seem hard to enforce a "Don't kill everyone you meet without proper justification. These are other players who want to enjoy the game, too." Policy.

Things changed to fit Sybil over Bagil because Bagil was less populated. Now they are fairly equal in terms of Playerbase. Things should not be one-sided. If Sybil can have things their way, Why can't Bagil?

[Takeguru]

And being an antag is proper justification.

[Malkevin]

It doesn't exactly seem hard to enforce a "Don't kill everyone you meet without proper justification. These are other players who want to enjoy the game, too." Policy.

Things changed to fit Sybil over Bagil because Bagil was less populated. Now they are fairly equal in terms of Playerbase. Things should not be one-sided. If Sybil can have things their way, Why can't Bagil?

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.

[Wyzack]

To be fair that is a selective screen shot. Lots of the time I see 55 on basil and 65 on sybil

[Anonmare]

I knew this would degenerate into a Sybil vs Basil debate

Someone owes me a handjob behind Costcutters.

[lumipharon]

TBH people that play on sybil and not on basil have no valid opinion in this thread.
Not only do you not know what's going on, it doesn't effect you either.

If basil players want a pretty reasonable change then why not?

[imblyings]

>Adminhelp: why did the traitor from last round kill me even though i wasnt his target
>player pettiness and salt gets involved
>admins stuck between he said she said without any real standard to go by trying to justify antag kills
>multi tldr post fnr requests on how an antag killed too many people
>havent even touched upon nonantag restrictions

at best basil could try out an edited version of bay/polaris rules, applied temporarily when admins are free to not only enforce but continually make players aware of a different set of rules

That or admins restricted somehow to adminning on basil only

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I play bagil almost exclusively, except that I've been exiled to sybil lately so that the chorus of "I never see this guy on sybil, so he doesn't play" doesn't stain my next review.

[TheNightingale]

>Adminhelp: why did the traitor from last round kill me even though i wasnt his target
>player pettiness and salt gets involved
>admins stuck between he said she said without any real standard to go by trying to justify antag kills
>multi tldr post fnr requests on how an antag killed too many people
>havent even touched upon nonantag restrictions

at best basil could try out an edited version of bay/polaris rules, applied temporarily when admins are free to not only enforce but continually make players aware of a different set of rules

That or admins restricted somehow to adminning on basil only

There's a difference between killing one person and going on a murder spree. As in the original post - you'll know it when you see it.
I like the idea of the Bay/Polaris rules, but those are quite heavy RP (compared to Basil's medium), and applying them only when admins are available isn't such a good idea - rules are either there or they're not, and in this instance, we should never be encouraging murder sprees. It wouldn't be difficult for players to adminhelp "This guy just killed half the station with a revolver, that's lame", and it'd be even easier for people to just... read the rules. If this was implemented, hopefully there wouldn't be people doing this anyway - because nobody likes to get caught breaking the rules, right? If there really are no admins on at all, we can just save logs and show the fifteen ghosts and piles of dead bodies.

[onleavedontatme]

[04:39:32]OOC: Rae Sremmurd/Youngbuckliontiger : also about basil
[04:39:38]OOC: Rae Sremmurd/Youngbuckliontiger : they posted about anti murderbone
[04:39:43]OOC: Rae Sremmurd/Youngbuckliontiger : that was because of me too
[04:39:54]OOC: Rae Sremmurd/Youngbuckliontiger : ive been honing my murderboning skills tehre
[04:40:05]OOC: Kevinz000/Kevinz000 : young what did i say about bullying the hubbies
[04:40:21]OOC: Rae Sremmurd/Youngbuckliontiger : but its so fun

Surely there is something between "guy who goes and only plays on basil to kill as many people as possible then laughs about it like it's a griefing raid" and "OH NO WE ARE BAY NOW, LAY DOWN YOUR WEAPONS TRAITORS, RP YOUR WAY TO THAT DISK OPS"

[onleavedontatme]

>moved on from the days

Our old combat, which I realize many people disliked, was very simple in that everyone was very fast, attacks basically ignored armour, and everyone killed/died in one hit. A whole station of glass cannons. Everything was overpowered to a point of vague balance.

We kinda got halfway into a new system and then stuck. Nowadays carrying stun gloves on you wouldn't matter much against a murderspree because the traitorling with adrenal implants can just hit a button to ignore your attacks and murder you afterwards. Since we can't all be glass cannons, we tried to make people who could tank X amount of hits or block Y attacks, and it's possible to stack those advantages until it becomes very difficult for an armed officer to deal with you, never mind random civilians.

[Pascal123]

-Snip-

Well then... I guess you could start with him.

[Wyzack]

I think that a better compromise would be that murderboners are up for merciless and relentless admin fuckery. Erts, squids, exploding corgis, sentient hivebots, any other silly shit. Not a 100 percent effective solution for now but it should help some. Also you are a top scrub if you think killing a bunch of unrobust pubbies makes you good

[Zilenan91]

You're right on them being unrobust. Pubby servers are hilarious, especially the griefers. Griefers in particular are fantastic, I had one trying to toolbox and slip me as a janitor for like 3 minutes before he got a knockdown, beat me halfway to death, and then upon getting up I bottlesmashed him into oblivion.

If you get guys like that on basil consider not banning them but doing something else. Like jailing them, making them wear clown clothes, and giving them every disability known to man and telling the crew to murder them horribly.

[Wyzack]

Im my experience they just ghost or logout when they get humiliated, which makes it boring

[Zilenan91]

They can't handle having the control taken from them when they try to take it away from others. I feel bad for them honestly, they'll never really realize just how much depth there is in this game.

[TheNightingale]

Opening them up to admin shenanigans requires that there are admins online (which isn't always the case), requires that said admins be 'fun' ones (which also isn't always the case), and doesn't actually stop them doing it again. Giving them an antagban (or a real ban) for both servers will dissuade people from trying it on Basil - because they know this'll stop them doing it on Sybil too, where it's seen as more acceptable.

[confused rock]

Additionally, it might be a good idea to play on Basil, to get some idea of how the culture works. If your experience with murderboners is based on your time on Sybil, that might not accurately reflect how they're perceived on Basil.

I tried basil because sybil was down.
I was met by pascal and some friend of his talking shit about sybil and calling everything ever metafriending, and then when sybil came up they went there just so they could talk shit about it some more.
In any case, it would be stupid to have basil be the high rp server when you consider that it is the one with the hub.