Multiple antag types and conversions within the same round

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:59 pm #191343

So this is something we don't currently have any guidelines, rules, or anything close to what we should do in a situation where for example:
1: There's a cult
2: There's traitors
3: There's lings
4: There's gangs
5: Xenomorphs which are convertible to cult for some reason.
6: Malf AI and Ratvar
All mixed in the same round.

Normally this just doesn't happen, save for xenos and badmin button pushing. With datum antags Soon™, something like this might actually pop up naturally on its own. So i'd like to have an open discussion about what takes precedence when it comes to your objectives.

Traitors flashed by a head rev, kill whoever, help revs? Cult Xenomorphs, listen to queen or narsie? Ling cult, same deal here? Nuke Op getting ganged? Cultist getting flashed by head rev?
There are a lot of weird ass combinations to keep in mind.

Okand37 · Post by **Okand37** » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:25 pm #191355

I believe the conversion gamemodes should come first, because they're essentially brainwashing.

Post by **Archie700** » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:33 pm #191362

What if your target is a member of your team?

Even worse, what if your target is your leader?

Alex Crimson · Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:35 pm

What if you are a ganger who gets converted into a cultist? Is that even possible? Logically it would make sense that the last conversion would be the overriding one, right? No matter what kind of antag you are, if you get converted into another antag then that takes priority.

If your objective is part of the team, then too bad. No greentext for you. Consider it a loss the moment you got converted.

TheNightingale · Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:54 pm

I'd say the team antag should always come first, except when the solo antag specifically overrides it. You shouldn't kill the CE if they're a cultist and you need to steal their blueprints, but similarly, they should give you the blueprints, because you're on the same team. If your objective is "kill the CE", though, they're fair game. Xenomorphs must never go against their queen's wishes, no matter what.

DrPillzRedux · Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:56 pm

Team antags are team antags, no exceptions. Doesn't matter if you're a ling/traitor/whatever. You have the icon, you work for that group. If your objective goes against the group, tough titty, suck it up and red text. No one cares.

Follow the group whose icon is above your character it's really that fucking simple.

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:58 pm #191401

Can't wait for the xeno gang, that poor queen must be so upset that her babies are dealing weed and acting roadman.

Post by **oranges** » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:28 pm #191407

what if people understood that admins messing up the roundtype antags may possibly ruin peoples rounds sometimes and that's okay

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:37 pm #191410

Reece wrote:Can't wait for the xeno gang, that poor queen must be so upset that her babies are dealing weed and acting roadman.

> Alien queen grounds her children for joining a gang and commands them to stay in their rooms

I like it

Bawhoppennn · Post by **Bawhoppennn** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:23 am #191453

Well in incoming's original design doc, the list was something like Sling>Cults>Rev>Gang>Personal Objectives (ling, tator, etc.)

Screemonster · Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 am

There is a sort-of-similar situation.

1: be traitor
2: fuck up, get forceborged
3: be now subservient to AI+laws, tough titty 'cause your objectives don't matter any more.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:40 am #191473

it has to be team antag first

if you can still achieve your original objectives you're free to go for it but at least you shouldn't be able to kill your allies. if your target is on your side you can't just murder them.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:05 am #191480

Alright, but what about within conversion antags themselves. Whose brainfuck is stronger?
I don't think we have to worry about Narsie vs Ratvar, since that's already covered i'm sure.

What if you flash a cultist? Cult a xeno? Gang a rev?

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:35 am #191482

i think it would probably be better to nip that in the bud. your current allegiance should take primacy over any new brainwashing attempts. codewise i don't think many of those should even be possible, as it will lead to an administrative clusterfuck and it's simply too confusing to the end user.

being two team antags at once shouldn't be possible except as a result of an event or something. making this a reality is probably not too difficult on coderbus' end. there's already sort of a precedent in the resistance of traitor cyborgs to being emagged, for instance.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:38 am #191483

And then when we go back to traitors. What if the traitor cults objectives are to escape alone, the same can be said with changelings. Or they have objectives to kill another member of said gang/cult/rev/whatever. You can't just say that "Oh, the brainwashing of Revs/Cults/Gangs/Whatever is stronger", and then also suddenly make snowflake exceptions which would make everything related to this annoying to deal with, especially as a player. Since it would effectively be silicon policy for antags, a huge, bloated mess which would make antags less fun to play since they have to carefully tiptoe around without breaking anything.

And what Saegrimr also said, and then which team antag mode with brainwashing gets the upperhand over the other? Someone who is both a Cult and a Gang, who will they serve first, the cult, or the gang.

Honestly, cultists being paranoid of possible danger from fellow cultists sounds like a good thing. You shouldn't ever trust anyone.

ShadowDimentio · Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:57 am

Just have it so if you're in one you can't be in another. Like a ling walks down the hall and a ganghead tries to pen them and they both get a message about how it fails/they just nearly got converted.

This is the part where the ganghead whips out an uzi and the traitor whips out a revolver and agree they won't rat on each other, or alternatively where they both shoot each other dead only for the HoS to show up immediately afterwards.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:03 am #191497

I personally think the best thing is to keep it simple. Team antag overides everything, plain and simple. Anyone who complains about it can eat a dick. They're still antags with all the benefits their initial antag position has to offer so there's really nothing to bitch about.

What if you flash a cultist? Cult a xeno? Gang a rev?

Again, keep it simple. Your latest conversion should determine where your loyalty lies.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:25 am #191498

Gets ugly if you're a culted xeno, though.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

The only time people have ever culted xenoes in real play started with the queen in xenobio pen, though.

DrWoofington · Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:02 pm

firecage wrote:And then when we go back to traitors. What if the traitor cults objectives are to escape alone, the same can be said with changelings. Or they have objectives to kill another member of said gang/cult/rev/whatever. You can't just say that "Oh, the brainwashing of Revs/Cults/Gangs/Whatever is stronger", and then also suddenly make snowflake exceptions which would make everything related to this annoying to deal with, especially as a player. Since it would effectively be silicon policy for antags, a huge, bloated mess which would make antags less fun to play since they have to carefully tiptoe around without breaking anything.

And what Saegrimr also said, and then which team antag mode with brainwashing gets the upperhand over the other? Someone who is both a Cult and a Gang, who will they serve first, the cult, or the gang.

Honestly, cultists being paranoid of possible danger from fellow cultists sounds like a good thing. You shouldn't ever trust anyone.

No it doesn't.
If you get converted, deal with it and play.
Why convert if people that were converted still can kill you? What's the point? Might as well not convert.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:14 pm #191562

Yeah people got it pretty much on the mark, team objectives trump personal objectives if they conflict with each other. If they don't conflict and you can reasonably try for both then that's fine, go for the rare doublegreentext.

But all this is just unenforced policy right now.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:20 pm #191563

I dunno, i think it would be most interesting to force traitors and stuff to still cooperate with their team as much as they can, but allow them to complete their objectives even if it interferes with the team. So murdering your entire cult for lulz is not okay, but quietly assassinating one of the members and trying to cover your ass to the others is. Not everything needs to be risk free you cowards, remember when paranoia was a thing?

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:36 pm #191573

I think that Wyzack has a point here. Converted traitors should not act against their team, unless it benefits their objective.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:40 pm #191575

obviously this would not be as easy to administrate but i think it would be worth it

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:20 pm #191586

Of course, there's always an alternative - traitors can't be converted. They already can't be recruited into clockcult (but can be recruited into regular cult).

Post by **MMMiracles** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:19 pm #191600

InsaneHyena wrote:Of course, there's always an alternative - traitors can't be converted. They already can't be recruited into clockcult (but can be recruited into regular cult).

Are you positive about that?

I can't find a single instance where traitor minds resist clockwork conversion, so I'm pretty sure they're as vulnerable as anyone else.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:47 pm #191607

Honestly I'd say make OPs/Traitors and Changelings immune to anything shy of shadowling conversion. Antagonists rarely have reason to rat on each other unless they get in each other's way and allowing the conversion to go through could be considered pretty shitty if there was never any real chance they could have accomplished their objectives.

To explain away why the conversions don't work on the solo antagonists (for you lorefags), Traitors and OPs can be fluffed as having training to resist memetics or forced ideological conversion and malfunctioning AIs are too corrupted for clockcult brainwashing to stick. Changelings you can fluff as their brain chemistry being too weird/loyalty to the hive too strong to alter. Xenos could be vulnerable to supernatural conversion, flashes and gang implants don't work on them due to a lack of eyes and incompatible biology. Swarmers could be converted by Ratvar, it doesn't make a huge difference if they're unaligned or aligned in all honesty - not like they can hurt you.

Wizards are literally magic and think your attempts at brainwashing are adorable.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:00 pm #191612

Shadowlings are out.

Elder gods should probably still be able to get into any brain that doesn't have a FUCK YOU implant, though.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:10 pm #191617

I can't find a single instance where traitor minds resist clockwork conversion, so I'm pretty sure they're as vulnerable as anyone else.

Well, it happened a while ago, but I couldn't convert traitors. Maybe it got fixed.

MrEousTranger · Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:50 pm

Xeno cultist.
Convert human cultists to xenos
CULT OF THE XENO QUEEN.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:35 pm #191642

Wyzack wrote:I dunno, i think it would be most interesting to force traitors and stuff to still cooperate with their team as much as they can, but allow them to complete their objectives even if it interferes with the team. So murdering your entire cult for lulz is not okay, but quietly assassinating one of the members and trying to cover your ass to the others is. Not everything needs to be risk free you cowards, remember when paranoia was a thing?

What about Escape Alone then? Since it would mean you would have to prevent Nar-Sie from being summoned since he would ruin that, the same with Ratvar. And they would have to destroy Dominators aswell if they are a gangster. Or, at worst, kill everyone.

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:00 am #191787

It should be like this, whatever antag you get first is your primary antag.

Because this'll simplify things in the future when a traitor murderbones a lot and then gets converted by revs and it turns out that he killed 8 people RIGHT before he got converted.

Sidon · Post by **Sidon** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:28 am #191793

Why is a code issue in policy

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:58 am #191795

Sidon wrote:Why is a code issue in policy

Because currently this is something that wasn't even possible by code standards, save for badmin interaction. As I said before with datum antags maybe ever this century this could come up naturally.

Whether this just turns into policy, or a guideline on how to code a hierarchy of antags to prevent multiple conversions outright is to be seen later.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:22 am #191812

yackemflam wrote:It should be like this, whatever antag you get first is your primary antag.

Because this'll simplify things in the future when a traitor murderbones a lot and then gets converted by revs and it turns out that he killed 8 people RIGHT before he got converted.

And then the traitor jumps back up after getting converted and immediately murders the rev head who flashed him because "huehuehue gotta go for high score" and then the ahelps start pouring in as he goes around murdering as many revs as he can for shits and giggles. You want to keep things simple? Team antag comes first.

And again, as far as "escape alone" objectives go, the way I see it is, tough shit. If you're really upset about it then you can go eat a dick. You've still got a shot at greentext through your new team antag objective so focus on pulling your fair share with your new found buddies instead of crying like a bitch over the fact that they're no longer valid.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:06 pm #191882

I know it's fun to devise antag priority based on fluff but you can't expect players to remember that sling takes precedence over gang and so on, just make it so that the last conversion takes priority and be done with it. You are traitor and get converted by cult? You're a cultist now. You're a ganger and get slinged? You are a thrall. You're a cult and get revved? You're a rev, go kill the cultist CE. You're a kid? You're a squid now.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:10 pm #191883

I do not think we should cater to the lowest common denominator of mouth breathing dipshit that cannot remember a list of like 6 things

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:15 pm #191884

We could just wait until datum antags are fully completed and not give traitors conversion abilities in the meantime

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:16 pm #191885

Wyzack wrote:I do not think we should cater to the lowest common denominator of mouth breathing dipshit that cannot remember a list of like 6 things

New players do join frequently.

TheNightingale · Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:32 pm

Doesn't "escape alone" allow for other antags to be on the shuttle with you anyway?

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:51 pm #191907

I can't wait to see admins bwoinking people and going "You shouldn't have killed your thrall mate even though you got revved because CLEARLY thrall takes precedence over rev as described in this handy .doc I have hidden somewhere on the wiki, ding dong bannu"

yackemflam · Post by **yackemflam** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:59 pm #191908

Jacough wrote:
yackemflam wrote:It should be like this, whatever antag you get first is your primary antag.

Because this'll simplify things in the future when a traitor murderbones a lot and then gets converted by revs and it turns out that he killed 8 people RIGHT before he got converted.
And then the traitor jumps back up after getting converted and immediately murders the rev head who flashed him because "huehuehue gotta go for high score" and then the ahelps start pouring in as he goes around murdering as many revs as he can for shits and giggles. You want to keep things simple? Team antag comes first.

And again, as far as "escape alone" objectives go, the way I see it is, tough shit. If you're really upset about it then you can go eat a dick. You've still got a shot at greentext through your new team antag objective so focus on pulling your fair share with your new found buddies instead of crying like a bitch over the fact that they're no longer valid.

But then people would get confused when team antags take over other team antags.
What if you are a cult who got ganged?

First come first serve, and admins can reply to those ahelps with 'valid' like they do with everything else that is valid.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:15 pm #191914

Tbh It'd just make sense to make it impossible for some antags to be converted. Maybe put them on a scale and only allow conversions if the convertee's antagonist weight is lower than the converter's.

0 - Regular crew/Non-antagonists/Abductors/Xenobiology Humanoids/Neutral Humanoids
1 - Non-head Revolutionaries/Gang Members/Greentext
2 - Swarmers/Xenomorphs/Malfunctioning Cyborgs (classic malfunctioning AI)
3 - Revolutionary Leaders/Gang Bosses/Cultists (Blood and clock)/Traitors/Changelings/Operatives/Shadowling Thralls/Malfunctioning AIs/Cyborgs synced to a Traitor AI
4 - Shadowlings/Blob-Infected personnel (If we ever go back to classic Blob)
5 - Wizards/Umbras/Devils

Under this system, Gang leaders could convert revolutionaries but not the revheads themselves. Clock cultists could convert unsynced classic malfunctioning unsynced cyborgs but not ones that are synced to a malfunctioning AI. Shadowlings can convert gang bosses but not vice-versa.
There'd probably have to be a few code-exceptions to stop some weird happenings like bloodcult swarmers but I think it'd be better to let code rather than policy handle this.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:39 pm #191934

What if you are a cult who got ganged?

Then you're a gang member instead of a cultist now. Just pay attention to that pretty little symbol next to your character and help whoever else has that symbol. It's pretty straight forward.

Screemonster · Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:06 pm

Another code solution would be something similar to mindshield implants.

If you're in a converted role, you're treated as "implanted" by that faction and only specific things remove that status (revs being implanted puts them back in the "crew" faction, while implanting a cultist doesn't deconvert them but does prevent future conversion, etc)
Any method of conversion that doesn't work on implanted personnel fails if the person in question has been converted to something else already. Deconvert them first and you're good (by feeding them holy water or whatever)

Sidon · Post by **Sidon** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:52 pm #191992

Jacough wrote:
What if you are a cult who got ganged?
Then you're a gang member instead of a cultist now. Just pay attention to that pretty little symbol next to your character and help whoever else has that symbol. It's pretty straight forward.

Why are gang converts stronger than a cult?

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:27 am #192011

He never said it was stronger. You can just be re culted afterwards in this scenario

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:32 am #192012

Honestly, we should just make it so a situation like this doesn't happen, and maybe code out culting xenos and shit like that.

IMO it just seems like a lot of work to fix something that really should never happen

Bawhoppennn · Post by **Bawhoppennn** » Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:24 am #192041

You guys are overcomplicating it by way too much. A simple hierarchy, which we can list in the rules, will be perfectly fine and make sense.

I will make an executive decision for all circumstances we should all be able to agree on:

Silicon Laws
v
Thrall (getting removed anyways)
v
Cults (all are mutually exclusive)
v
Revolution
v
Gangs
v
Xeno Hive
v
Personal Allegiances:
-Traitor
-Ling
-Wizard
-Any Admin Objectives (Special circumstances apply ofc)
-Revenant (Not that they can be converted anyways)
-Ninja
-A few others but you get the idea
v
Teams (Ops, ERT, Etc.) (only if there is a conflict)

Blob: Immune to all other antag types

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:46 am #192059

only option here making sense is the idea up above on group antags giving pseudo loyalty implants of their own, which prevent multiple antag types on one person but this is a code solution to a niche problem usually caused by badmins