Lethal Escalation Against Security

[Tornadium]

So I just wanted to check what is the current policy on this.

Just encountered an issue in a round where admins gave a player the go ahead to murder security and welder bomb the brig because their contraband was confiscated. Is this a thing now? I was under the impression that lethal force required sufficient escalation and a better reason than "They stole muh shit that I shouldn't have had in the first place AFTER I already broke a law and wasn't even brigged for it".

[Wyzack]

To clarify, i am the admin who made the call and the contraband in question was a tarot deck

[Tornadium]

To clarify, i am the admin who made the call and the contraband in question was a tarot deck

You should probably also add that he was looking to trade the tarot deck for an emag with a known traitor, and also stole an emag from the contraband locker when he broke into the brig. Something he wasn't even brigged for.

[Raven776]

So wait, when security takes my unloaded stetchkin that I get from the vault on metastation then I can start killing them?

[Doritos]

lethal force required sufficient escalation and a better reason than "They stole muh shit that I shouldn't have had in the first place

If you perform any sort of escalation against security that ISN'T killing them then they'll execute/permabrig you.

It's reasonable to want to keep your magical space wizard artifact that can give you magical space wizard powers.

It's reasonable for security to not want you to have magical space wizard powers.

[Tornadium]

So you're telling me immediate lethal escalation is kosher now for all crew who have shit they shouldnt have? Alright cool.

[Wyzack]

It was an IC conflict and i wanted it to remain IC. I considered telling them not to go lethal at all and realized that would be kind of dumb considering sec would unzip the valid baton posthaste regardless. Hell, you were the one bitching that there was not enough conflict outside of antag business on Basil. I strongly feel that admins do not need to enact OOC consequences for every damn thing. I told you to deal with it IC and you decided to storm off instead. Also i do love any time someone goes with the classic "X HAPPENED? I GUESS THEN I CAN DO Y OBVIOUSLY NOT ALLOWED THING NOW LOL THANKS ADMINS" sperge out

[Tornadium]

It was an IC conflict and i wanted it to remain IC. I considered telling them not to go lethal at all and realized that would be kind of dumb considering sec would unzip the valid baton posthaste regardless. Hell, you were the one bitching that there was not enough conflict outside of antag business on Basil. I strongly feel that admins do not need to enact OOC consequences for every damn thing. I told you to deal with it IC and you decided to storm off instead. Also i do love any time someone goes with the classic "X HAPPENED? I GUESS THEN I CAN DO Y OBVIOUSLY NOT ALLOWED THING NOW LOL THANKS ADMINS" sperge out

You cannot apply rules subjectively based on the exact same circumstances.

That is literally the definition of a shitty system of law. Simply put you cannot give one player the go ahead to murder security for taking contraband and not allow other players to do the same and enforce a punishment. I actually was not the person saying there was not enough conflict on basil at all, so that is entirely irrelevant.

This was not an IC conflict, dude wanted to trade tarot cards for an emag. Dude broke into the brig and attempted to steal the emag so I took both and just kicked him out of the brig without any detaining. He then proceeds to come back and welder bomb the brig almost killing several crew and then proceeds to murderbone against security for doing their jobs.

I couldn't deal with it IC because my body was left in the hall, I had literally my uniform left and that was it. The rest of security was braindead and the armory was looted, HoP was braindead and the Captain had fucked off and hadn't been seen for nearly 30 minutes. So by the time I even get cloned I can't even get a replacement ID woooo yeah I can totally get revenge on a dude who now has half the armory on him.

So I'm super fucking confused here, Are you telling me any action taken against security should be considered acceptable if lethal action is taken simply because there is a risk security will "unzip the valid baton" despite the person being clearly in the wrong and having attempted to steal syndicate items from the brig?

Are you fucking shitting me?

[Wyzack]

Good thing this is a fucking video game and not a court of law. If a headmin wants to come slap me on the wrist or deadmin me or something they can feel free, but i am not getting in to an autistic shouting match over this

[Tornadium]

Good thing this is a fucking video game and not a court of law. If a headmin wants to come slap me on the wrist or deadmin me or something they can feel free, but i am not getting in to an autistic shouting match over this

This isn't an autistic shouting match, this is me asking for clarification regarding rule precedence and reasoning for enforcement.

Your current justification goes against all the precedence I know, We literally banned people like Burer for that kind of shit.

As an admin you are still held to a level of standard, Just saying "Nah it's a video game" doesn't justify being entirely unfair in your enforcement of established rules. Nothing in this case in any way justifies lethal escalation, at least to my knowledge. I've seen people banned for going on valid sprees because someone stole their items, welder bombing multiple people to get one target who stole a fucking item from them. The behavior was shitty and I would like to know what in this specific instance made a player breaking into the brig to steal antagonist items (Who was not punished at all outside of having the contraband taken) 100% A-OK to start a war against sec. A war which included welder bombing of the brig causing hull breaches and nearly killing a few members of crew and then hunting security in the halls.

[Raven776]

It was an IC conflict and i wanted it to remain IC. I considered telling them not to go lethal at all and realized that would be kind of dumb considering sec would unzip the valid baton posthaste regardless. Hell, you were the one bitching that there was not enough conflict outside of antag business on Basil. I strongly feel that admins do not need to enact OOC consequences for every damn thing. I told you to deal with it IC and you decided to storm off instead. Also i do love any time someone goes with the classic "X HAPPENED? I GUESS THEN I CAN DO Y OBVIOUSLY NOT ALLOWED THING NOW LOL THANKS ADMINS" sperge out

Comparing two analogous things together isn't a sperge out, but there's obviously more to this than I thought when I made my comment.

[Tornadium]

It was an IC conflict and i wanted it to remain IC. I considered telling them not to go lethal at all and realized that would be kind of dumb considering sec would unzip the valid baton posthaste regardless. Hell, you were the one bitching that there was not enough conflict outside of antag business on Basil. I strongly feel that admins do not need to enact OOC consequences for every damn thing. I told you to deal with it IC and you decided to storm off instead. Also i do love any time someone goes with the classic "X HAPPENED? I GUESS THEN I CAN DO Y OBVIOUSLY NOT ALLOWED THING NOW LOL THANKS ADMINS" sperge out

Comparing two analogous things together isn't a sperge out, but there's obviously more to this than I thought when I made my comment.

There really isn't, Dude had Contraband. He attempted to steal more contraband by breaking into the brig.

The contraband was then taken and no punishment handed out.

It literally would be the same as the situation you described. The precedence here is, if security takes shit you shouldn't have for a good reason you can go lethal.

[Bolien]

The important thing here is precedent.

~Trigger warning, le slippery slope meme ahead~
The waters have really been muddied by an admin allowing him to murderbone sec for pretty much no reason.
People can use this example as easy justifications for them lethally attacking sec after receiving small punishments.

I'm also worried about sec in this hypothetical situation.
Their only reasonable defense to this kind of retalition is to just outright murderbone themselves, so it all goes downhill from here, potentially.

I really do not agree with Wyzack's decision to allow this.
Honestly this sounds like it belongs in admin complaints more than anything, up to you Tornadium.

If the complaint fails then maybe then its time for this policy discussion, as clearly something has changed and I'll just have to execute every shitter instead of glorious telegulag.

[InsaneHyena]

> murderboning sec as nonantag is okay, username, do exactly that!

Why the fuck did you think it was the right decision?

[Zilenan91]

Security threads

[Eaglendia]

So you're telling me immediate lethal escalation is kosher now for all crew who have shit they shouldnt have? Alright cool.

Why do you always do this?

[NikNakFlak]

Because they are a cancerous player

[Zilenan91]

I was dissapointed and confused when tornadium got unbanned from security. He was always terrible.

[Tornadium]

So you're telling me immediate lethal escalation is kosher now for all crew who have shit they shouldnt have? Alright cool.

Why do you always do this?

I'm guessing you've ever heard of hyperbole or making a sarcastic comment to point out the idiocy in what someone is saying huh.

Well let me explain what I meant in words you might understand. A situation like the one we have here is an extremely shitty precedent to set. In this circumstance we have literally no confrontation escalation, We have no reasoning or threat to a player that justifies starting a personal war against security either. Just some dude who had shit he shouldn't have had, attempted to steal more shit he shouldn't have had from the brig (Traitor gear) and got it taken away. Now usually I'd have just brigged the dude and confiscated it but I just took the contraband and let him go.

The justification here is that if he did anything against security they might "unzip their valid baton". The admin literally thinks it's okay to go straight to murder and using fuel tanks to welder bomb areas of the station because there is a chance security MIGHT kill them for it. Why is this suddenly a unique case for security? A random assistant is just as likely to jump to valids and murder you if you fuck with them but I'm pretty sure we don't just allow for random instant murder. Why ban people on countless occasions for failure to escalate correctly only to set a precedent of "Yeah you can just do whatever against security because they might just kill you if they catch you".

I mean I'd maybe understand if someone was being a massive turbo shit and throwing someone in the gulag or permabrig for literally no reason on top of beating them or something but this was literally a case of the person in question being entirely 100% in the wrong, getting off without any real punishment outside of the equipment stolen and the holo confiscated. What's to stop me from doing the same if security confiscate my improvised shotgun as an assistant? Am I fully justified to start attacking officers on sight, killing and looting them and welder bombing the brig?

[Tornadium]

Because they are a cancerous player

See above post,

What about using sarcasm and hyperbole to point out flaws and contradictions in a situation such as this constitutes cancerous behavior.

[DemonFiren]

> murderboning sec as nonantag is okay, username, do exactly that!

Why the fuck did you think it was the right decision?

Again I find myself agreeing with this guy.

[Steelpoint]

I take their tool belt.

They take my life.

Nice precedent.

[Saegrimr]

So you're telling me immediate lethal escalation is kosher now for all crew who have shit they shouldnt have? Alright cool.

Also i do love any time someone goes with the classic "X HAPPENED? I GUESS THEN I CAN DO Y OBVIOUSLY NOT ALLOWED THING NOW LOL THANKS ADMINS" sperge out

> murderboning sec as nonantag is okay, username, do exactly that!

Why the fuck did you think it was the right decision?

I take their tool belt.

They take my life.

Nice precedent.

6. In-game administration rulings are final.
Incidences of admin abuse, negligence or disputed rulings can be taken to the forums. If an admin says something was 'looked into, handled, resolved' etc, regarding an issue, it is unlikely an admin will provide any further information. Admins are under no obligation to reveal IC information. Deliberately lying or misrepresenting facts in adminhelps will be dealt with harshly. Promises or threats to use an admin ruling to grief or otherwise misbehave in the future merit an on the spot permaban.


Tread carefully. Precedent doesn't exist. Everybody involved needs to fuck off.

[onleavedontatme]

We have 40 different volunteers policing just over a thousand rounds per month in a game with near limitless possibilities. Not every admin decision is going to be exactly consistent nor is every decision a precedent.

[IrishWristWatch0]

Wow you could sum up all of this garbage with just the first two rules. How fun.

[Malkevin]

It was an IC conflict and i wanted it to remain IC. I considered telling them not to go lethal at all and realized that would be kind of dumb considering sec would unzip the valid baton posthaste regardless. Hell, you were the one bitching that there was not enough conflict outside of antag business on Basil. I strongly feel that admins do not need to enact OOC consequences for every damn thing. I told you to deal with it IC and you decided to storm off instead. Also i do love any time someone goes with the classic "X HAPPENED? I GUESS THEN I CAN DO Y OBVIOUSLY NOT ALLOWED THING NOW LOL THANKS ADMINS" sperge out

You do realise that making rulings like this actually encourages security to unzip their valid baton?

Think about it, look at the facts.
1. He had contraband
2. He was looking to trade said contraband for traitor contraband.
3. He breaks into the armory to steal the traitor contraband

By precedence Point 3 gives Tornadium full rights to execute the guy on the spot, end of.
But he decides not to execute him, not to even brig him, just take the shit he stole and kicked him out.
Quite literally letting him off with the lightest punishment he can get.

Naturally no good deeds goes unpunished and the guy not only takes revenge but does so with the full blessing on an admin...


Now if I was there instead of Tornadium the guy would've been zipped off to the gulag to take a nice hot bath, and I'd feel completely justified in doing so because of the scenario which actually did happen instead.

[Wyzack]

Do you want to know the best part about all this. When it came up in game, i did a little more looking in to it. Originally i did not know about the emag. I am not certain i would have made the call any differently but the fact remains i made the call on incomplete information. I apologized to Tornadium for making a potentially bad call and told him he could seek his justice IC. Then i guess he got mad that i was not going to i guess ban the guy for doing what I said he could do and now we have this thread.

@Malkavin if you had done that I probably would have encouraged the miner to deal with it IC however they could. I am not biased against security by any means, before this whole shitstorm happened i told a guy who ahelped over sec killing him when he escaped from prison and saxxed around into the armory that it was valid.

Tl:DR Deal with your problems IC, this is a fucking video game, play it

[Incomptinence]

Wow you could sum up all of this garbage with just the first two rules. How fun.

fully accountable fully accountable fully accountable

Sad state of affairs when admins don't have the attention span to read through the text of rule 0 beyond WHEE I CAN DO ANYTHING!

Sayings it's just a game cuts both ways if the game is trivial so is the position of the admin involved in administrating that game. Axe em.

6. In-game administration rulings are final.
Promises or threats to use an admin ruling to grief or otherwise misbehave in the future merit an on the spot permaban.


Tread carefully. Precedent doesn't exist. Everybody involved needs to fuck off.

This is literally the most retarded section for the rules and just snaps the heads off innocent laymen for assuming real life legal precedence (taught in school heard in news part of popular culture whatever) is workable in the inky black mess we call a game.

It adds up to basically yelling YOU CAN'T TALK TO ME I TAKE EVERYTHING LITERALLY.

[Tornadium]

6. In-game administration rulings are final.
Incidences of admin abuse, negligence or disputed rulings can be taken to the forums. If an admin says something was 'looked into, handled, resolved' etc, regarding an issue, it is unlikely an admin will provide any further information. Admins are under no obligation to reveal IC information. Deliberately lying or misrepresenting facts in adminhelps will be dealt with harshly. Promises or threats to use an admin ruling to grief or otherwise misbehave in the future merit an on the spot permaban.


Tread carefully. Precedent doesn't exist. Everybody involved needs to fuck off.

Good thing I didn't promise to grief or threaten to use a ruling to misbehave in the future then huh, Making a sarcastic point to show the idiocy of someones statement is not a threat nor is it a promise.

We have 40 different volunteers policing just over a thousand rounds per month in a game with near limitless possibilities. Not every admin decision is going to be exactly consistent nor is every decision a precedent.

Rulings should be consistent with the established precedents and rulesets unless there is a specific event('s) which alter the ruling. In this incident was there any reason at all to justify a non-antag murderboner? Like any at all that you can come up with?

Edit: I'll make it easier actually, even before you bring the fact that he broke into the brig to steal traitor contraband that he was trying to trade for into the equation. Was even confiscating contraband such as Holoparas or whatever a justification for murder boner and a war against security? Making holes the in the station and nearly killing other crew members?

[IrishWristWatch0]

Don't make sarcastic fucking shit in something you want taken seriously.

[Tornadium]

Don't make sarcastic fucking shit in something you want taken seriously.

Sorry I thought it was rather obvious I was being sarcastic because of the ridiculousness of the point being made.

[Saegrimr]

i was only k-kidding guys
just a p-prank

[Tornadium]

Do you want to know the best part about all this. When it came up in game, i did a little more looking in to it. Originally i did not know about the emag. I am not certain i would have made the call any differently but the fact remains i made the call on incomplete information. I apologized to Tornadium for making a potentially bad call and told him he could seek his justice IC. Then i guess he got mad that i was not going to i guess ban the guy for doing what I said he could do and now we have this thread.

Wait you still think it's kosher for someone to break into the brig to try to steal traitor gear and then use that as justification for a non-antag murder spree?

I don't....What?

Yes you did apologize, I still feel this needs to be brought to the forums and discussed so we are fully aware if this is the correct course of action because if people can go on murder boners because I confiscate shit then things will need changed in security policy to allow for some kind of way to deal with it.

It's just kill baiting, Take shit you shouldn't have and when security takes it from you (according to this precedent being set) you are fully justified to start your own personal burer war.

[Tornadium]

i was only k-kidding guys
just a p-prank

I'm not sure who that was directed at but please grow up Saeg.

You can assume intend and try to pin shit like that on me all you want, just do it somewhere that isn't derailing the point of the thread thanks.

[Saegrimr]

because if people can go on murder boners because I confiscate shit then things will need changed in security policy to allow

please grow up Saeg.

This is fucking golden.

[Tornadium]

because if people can go on murder boners because I confiscate shit then things will need changed in security policy to allow

please grow up Saeg.

This is fucking golden.

Thanks for pointing that out, I forgot to finish that sentence.

[IrishWristWatch0]

How long is this thread going to go on before everyone hates themselves and nothing comes out of it?

[Doritos]

I mean, Tornadium asks a pretty good question if you can look past the him being Tornadium and shitting everything up bit.

What can you/are you supposed to do to security that takes your super magical fun toy away that you got from an away mission/mining/whatever knowing that if you try to get it back they'll likely perma/execute/whatever you if you try to get it back?

[tedward1337]

How long is this thread going to go on before everyone hates themselves and nothing comes out of it?

More like how long is this thread going to continue before someone bans tornadium from the game

[Tornadium]

How long is this thread going to go on before everyone hates themselves and nothing comes out of it?

More like how long is this thread going to continue before someone bans tornadium from the game

Ban me for raising a legitimate concern.

Sounds legit.

[tedward1337]

Tor, I have very little patience for forum lawyers.
You're one of them.
Just play the game, and enjoy it. If you want to bitch and moan about admins and their decisions take it somewhere else. You need to stop creating policy "discussions" in which you trash an admins decision and claim that you were "making a sarcastic joke"

[Tornadium]

Tor, I have very little patience for forum lawyers.
You're one of them.
Just play the game, and enjoy it. If you want to bitch and moan about admins and their decisions take it somewhere else. You need to stop creating policy "discussions" in which you trash an admins decision and claim that you were "making a sarcastic joke"

Re-read the thread.

I was being sarcastic in response to a player comment, not an admin ruling ( I still think the ruling is idiocy hence the thread but still).

The policy discussion forum is literally for discussing policy, this is a grey area that needs to be addressed. Everything about this event goes against my understanding of the current implementation of the ruleset and our policy tendencies. Why even have this sub forum if you're not going to use it to make clarifications on policy?

[imblyings]

There are multiple subjective justifications for actions in this game, many of which are opposed to each other despite their own legitimacy. Everything is also considered on a case by case basis and no amount of forum threads will change this.