Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

onleavedontatme
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
Byond Username: KorPhaeron

Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by onleavedontatme » #226030

Bottom post of the previous page:

The current ones seem pretty worthless. Every admin and player thinks it means something else, to the point where someone admins ban you for critting people while other admins will let sec hack off all of a guys limbs for theft.

What does "escalation" mean to you? How do we put it into words better?
User avatar
Luke Cox
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:52 am
Byond Username: NocturnalQuill
Location: Prisoner Transfer Room

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Luke Cox » #245977

Do shit, get hit
Image
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Cobby » #246069

Arianya wrote:quote
There's no set line for some of the rules though. Many of them are open to interpretation, and removing administrators who disagree with your interpretation is silly if you purposefully leave it to be interpreted other ways [within reason of course, which is also subjective].

Admin Complaints are mainly "this person didn't even bother to check up the facts, but here look at these receipts ;-)" or " wow this guy was a jerk when I was not being aggressive at all " or other bad practices that leads to someone being incorrectly treated/banned/etc. in our 2d space fort
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
confused rock
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:18 am
Byond Username: The unloved rock

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by confused rock » #246171

PKPenguin321 wrote:
CPTANT wrote:So how often do you guy's feel your round is "ruined" because of someone over escalating?

Because personally it basically never happens to me for some reason.
It's stopped happening to me but only because I got good and when people escalate for shitty reasons I just dunk them before they dunk me
can you teach me? usually either i dunk the shitter too early and get bwoinked or he manages to get away with killing me.
Image
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Arianya
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am
Byond Username: Arianya

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Arianya » #246318

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
Arianya wrote:quote
There's no set line for some of the rules though. Many of them are open to interpretation, and removing administrators who disagree with your interpretation is silly if you purposefully leave it to be interpreted other ways [within reason of course, which is also subjective].

Admin Complaints are mainly "this person didn't even bother to check up the facts, but here look at these receipts ;-)" or " wow this guy was a jerk when I was not being aggressive at all " or other bad practices that leads to someone being incorrectly treated/banned/etc. in our 2d space fort
Hence why we have headmins who can rule on whether an admin was or was not right to do "x".

Theres always going to be wiggle room and subjectivity in interpretation, even if we made our current rules (even more) pseudo-legalese with subclauses and attempts to pin down every potential situation.

The important aspect is that the players have somewhere to object if they feel that a rule has been mis/not enforced, which they do.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg
User avatar
BeeSting12
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:11 am
Byond Username: BeeSting12
Github Username: BeeSting12
Location: 'Murica

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by BeeSting12 » #246336

The best escalation policy is "start shit get hit."
Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day
[2020-05-21 01:21:48.923] SAY: Crippo/(Impala Chainee) "Shaggy Voice - She like... wants to get Eiffel Towered bro!!" (Brig (125, 166, 2))
hows my driving?
User avatar
PKPenguin321
Site Admin
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by PKPenguin321 » #247087

confused rock wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
CPTANT wrote:So how often do you guy's feel your round is "ruined" because of someone over escalating?

Because personally it basically never happens to me for some reason.
It's stopped happening to me but only because I got good and when people escalate for shitty reasons I just dunk them before they dunk me
can you teach me? usually either i dunk the shitter too early and get bwoinked or he manages to get away with killing me.
It mainly requires being good at the game in general enough to win a fight. If he's not covering his eyes and there's a screwdriver in reach, that's a quick fight ender, since they'll more often than not run away before they get blinded (and if they don't it does a stun now and then, so it's not completely awful in combat). Tables to slam him on are good. Do that and get off harm intent to keep him up there and just beat the shit out of him. Straight up punches are cool if you can dodge. Throw stuff you don't need if it does damage, like air tanks, nearby chairs/trash, that kind of thing.

The important part is to heal them afterwords. If they leave you alone, tada, fight over. If they don't, kick their shit in again. This is usually where I go straight for the kill, then hand them off to genetics to clone whilst I leave and go back to my business. If they fuck with you a third time (usually this time they will come armed with some form of stun so be wary), pull out all stops and murder their shit. Maybe pass their corpse to sec and say they were a traitor, or just leave them in a locker to rot or something. Up to you.

Just DO NOT let yourself go into crit. If you get damaged to the point of walking vastly slower than him, do what you can to get away from the fight. This is ESPECIALLY true if you've already kicked his ass once before, as he will usually go straight to just killing and leaving you to rot. When you're making a getaway, look for nearby spectators who will witness your murder, disposal bins to plop yourself into, quick stuns like wet floor tiles to push him back and get ahead of him.

It's generally easier to avoid conflict in the first place, though.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image
User avatar
J_Madison
Rarely plays
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:39 pm
Byond Username: Akesson

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by J_Madison » #247251

Situational awareness and appropriate security escalation:

Here's a general list of escalation from least to most:
Cooperate it out.
Tase and cuff.
Tase, disable, baton cuff.
Straight jacket
Crit.
Kill.
Special weapons and circumstances.


Co-operative or hostile;
First factor that decides whether or not I tase and cuff him.
If you're unarmed and co-operative, it's less likely I floor and cuff you.

Openly armed, concealed armed, unarmed.
If you're armed, It's not unreasonable to shoot first ask questions.

Responsive or unresponsive.
Response shows a person is there and aware, and can cooperate.
An unresponsive suspect could be disguised and are not cooperative.

Known danger/no compromise/nothing to lose individuals.
Anyone with a background of fighting to the last bone,carrying weapons at all times, lack of compromise or remorse.
These are no questions asked stun and cuff. Not only do I stun, but I exhaust with a disabler, and I stunbaton. Take no prisoners and leave nothing to chance to these players.

Impervious to weapons.
Double energy sword, hulk, stimpacks, implants. Kill them or put them down by critting them.

Group mentality.
Greytides, cooperation between individuals. Unless you beat them on numbers game, take no prisoners because no matter how augmented or armoured you are, five will pummel you.

Uncontrolled, passively dangerous.
Changelings, aliens, ect are dangerous not by choice. If they're loyal keep them, if they're not kill them.

Vicinity of danger.
Bombs, guns, being the armoury. it's reasonable to kill you on the spot before you martyr yourself.

Silicon hostiles.
Unique enemy. Very difficult to permanently kill with normal weapons. Kill on sight.



Examples:
Unarmed, cooperative nukeop can be shot for having an implant, but can be spared but arrested.
Armed, uncooperative, hostile group of genetic assistants can be killed on the spot.
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Cobby » #247274

Honestly if someone just starts messing with your stuff I don't think it should be the player's duty to keep them in the round, especially since there ARE ways to still play the game postmortem [unless you're banned from those, which sucks for you].

In a low rules meme round I did [> using meme rounds as legitimate policy discussion], my escalation rule was simply "If you start it, you don't get to finish it UNLESS you made an obvious attempt to ratify the situation [return their gear, fix what you broke, etc.]". The trick was the person being inconvenienced could do what ever to you in terms of escalation any time during this.

I guess the issue is that we're stuck between "Greytide is obnoxious" and "Minor conflict is pivotal in rounds to act as a distraction to antag activities and keep rounds interesting where antags are making it feel like pseudoextended".

Basically we're at a point where If you're above the "grey[tide] area" you will be banned, and if you're below the "grey[tide] area" you are "protected" in terms of other players having to deal with your shitty-but-not-yet-deemed-bannable behavior numerous times and risk being killed depending on how they escalate the conflict before they can get you out of their hair.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
bandit
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by bandit » #247320

One of the main factors, in my view, is persistence. Does someone graytide almost literally or literally every round, or do they get into fights on occasion? It's not hard to avoid fights, really. (This goes for security as well, it's not that hard not to get bwoinked every round you play security.)
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls
User avatar
Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Oldman Robustin » #250522

One question is how much of the rules is going to be in the "rules" and how much is going to be splayed out in a policy/precedent section.

It's not hard to come up with a reworded version of the current rule that offers a little more guidance, but anything beyond that would require input as to the proper balance of keeping the player informed versus information overload.
Image
User avatar
YBS
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:54 am
Byond Username: YBS

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by YBS » #251413

I think the first step to properly outlining escalation would be to catagorize and define what different levels if effects are and what warrants their appropriate responses. Could have a template like

Personal Effect
>Minor
>Major
>Critical
Workplace Effect
>Minor
>Major
>Critical
Station-wide Effect
>Minor
>Major
>Critical

It could play out like Space Law but for nonsec OOC translation. Of course there's always going to be line-toeing greytide who have ahelp on speed-dial for when their immersive RP griff blows up in their faces, who are the cancer that make these definitions so necessary in the first place.

If something like that was going to be lawyered out it'd be a long process, then you'd have to trust admin awareness to actually cite the precedent and honor it over bias in every single case. Dunno meng.
Image
User avatar
Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Oldman Robustin » #252523

Most judiciable codes of conduct split the severity of an offense into tiers like that.

Part of how big this undertaking is, is that it would require consensus on what types of behavior distinguish these tiers.

The difficulty is exaggerated by the fact that, for example, common law countries are relatively stable and so the analysis of law takes place against a steady backdrop that allows us to gently carve the nuances of our legal standards.

SS13 is a flaming shitheap that is almost always in a perpetual state of crisis - so a "minor" crime in one context might be something that tips the scales into catastrophe. In real life tossing a banana peel on the ground isn't likely to result in the death of everyone you know, but its quite possible in SS13.

So it makes sense to right the rules as standards that can adapt to constantly shifting circumstances (words like reckless and reasonable are dependent on context), but it also requires enough precedent or detail that we're not having 20+ admins all using their own personal definitions to adjudicate incidents.
Image
onleavedontatme
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
Byond Username: KorPhaeron

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by onleavedontatme » #252741

I legtimatley do not understand if we still have escalation rules or not because I see them on the page but in every practical application of the rules I see "okay well you started it with X action therefore you can't ever retaliate ever again or else you're baiting"
User avatar
Owegno
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:53 pm
Byond Username: Owegno
Location: Western Freedonia

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Owegno » #252762

Since nobody else seems to want to write better escalation rules (I would really like if someone else did but this needs to be resolved I in my opinion.) I can give a crack at it, but I have question before I do.

In the past escalation always seemed to be a case of attacker starts fight, defender escalates, attacker escalates back, and so on until the fight is done. But today it seems only the defender is supposed to escalate and the attacker is only allowed to escalate to the defenders level, never above. So my question is should I try to re-write escalation rules where each person takes turns escalating or only the defender can escalate and the attacker has to match and go no higher. Also I would probably just write it as a play by play of a few made up examples of whats valid and whats not.
Last edited by Owegno on Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
onleavedontatme
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
Byond Username: KorPhaeron

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by onleavedontatme » #252766

I wouldn't even say "to the defenders" level.

In practice you always have to be below the defender. Even if they've gone to lethals, you're generally only allowed to run away if you're considered the instigator.
In the past escalation always seemed to be a case of attacker starts fight, defender escalates, attacker escalates back, and so on until the fight is done. But today it seems only the defender is supposed to escalate and the attacker is only allowed to escalate to the defenders level, never above.
Thanks for perfectly putting my gripe with the escalation rules into words though. I'd rather it go back to the old way, but having the rules page actually reflect what we do would be better than nothing.
User avatar
Grazyn
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
Byond Username: Grazyn

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Grazyn » #252790

The term "escalation" itself is misleading since it appears the only real difference is between lethals and non-lethals as far as admins are concerned. This leads to 2 types of approach.
First one, places the burden on whoever used lethals first: someone could have annoyed you for the whole round in all kind of ways but the moment you use lethals on him, you're at risk of getting banned if he dies or be forever dead with no right to ahelp if you lose, since you were the one who "escalated" to lethals.
Second one, burden on whoever started shit. You start (non-lethal) shit with someone, they come to settle the issue, even if they use lethals first you're just supposed to roll over, die and accept your death, or run away. If you don't, and end up killing them, you get banned for killbaiting because you were the one who started shit with them.

About the issue of "coming back from cloning after you lost the original fight to get revenge": in both the aforementioned cases, if you were the one who "escalated" or "started shit", and ended up dead, you have no right to go back for round 2. This way people on the defender side don't feel compelled to gib/space someone because they fear them coming back forever until they manage to win.

Finally, no matter the approach you choose, no ban or warning should be dealt unless someone ahelped about it. People get in a fight, one dies, none of them ahelps, move along nothing to see here.
User avatar
cedarbridge
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by cedarbridge » #252948

The problem with "escalation" in general is that the person not-instigating is almost never in the driver's seat. If I get jumped in a hallway by Shit McGrey and the clown and I punch him in the face to get rid of him. He can just say "oh good, escalation" and proceed to beat me into crit. I never asked for this "fun minor conflict" that now just put me into medbay for 10+ minutes but the instigator got exactly what he was looking for. I just wanted to do my job, but somebody not assigned actual antagonist status was given antag-lite via our escalation policy to take me functionally out of the game for the sin of being too close to them in a hallway when the need to griff struck him. The standard model for escalation favors the instigator in this case though. Disarm/Push > Victim punches via harm > Instigator harms into crit.

What I haven't managed to get from this is what was added to the game experience generally that has improve the experience? The instigator got to griff within the rules. The victim got taken out of the round until medbay could put him back together. Tops instigator gets a couple minutes in the brig but probably not since sec usually has more to do than chase some random hallway brawl over nothing and probably never gets reported either. The victim essentially just has to "deal with it" as an IC issue and generally just gets a raw deal out of it.
Spoiler:
A lot of this wouldn't even be an issue if we didn't have so many unassigned assistants in rounds where even basic department roles aren't being filled but that needs its own thread.
User avatar
D&B
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:23 am
Byond Username: Repukan
Location: *teleports behind you*

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by D&B » #253001

If you're gonna fix escalation rules fix the mess that is the "You stole from my department when I wasn't even working, therefore you're now free valid. Over. Bend"
Spoiler:
[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
[20:26:39]ADMIN: PM: [censored]->[censored admin]: Alright, no problem. I have some input. Fuck my boy pussy.
[20:27:06]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Okay then. Have fun.
[20:31:29]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Excuse me?
J_Madison wrote: that's a stupid fucking stat
you don't play, you've never played
lying little shit with your bullshit stat
fuck you
ColonicAcid wrote:and with enough practise i too could blow my own dick so well that only the gods know how it feels.
User avatar
cedarbridge
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by cedarbridge » #253042

D&B wrote:If you're gonna fix escalation rules fix the mess that is the "You stole from my department when I wasn't even working, therefore you're now free valid. Over. Bend"
That's simple enough. Just add a limiter to the department defense clause that you can only defend a department you're actually working. That doesn't require you to be physically present there, but if somebody just busts into a department that's clearly being used for something without a word then there's room to throw them back out.
TheNightingale
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:07 pm
Byond Username: TheNightingale

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by TheNightingale » #253063

Grazyn wrote:Second one, burden on whoever started shit. You start (non-lethal) shit with someone, they come to settle the issue, even if they use lethals first you're just supposed to roll over, die and accept your death, or run away. If you don't, and end up killing them, you get banned for killbaiting because you were the one who started shit with them.
That sounds fair to me. If you don't like it, maybe... don't start shit with people?
User avatar
Grazyn
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
Byond Username: Grazyn

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Grazyn » #253086

cedarbridge wrote:The problem with "escalation" in general is that the person not-instigating is almost never in the driver's seat. If I get jumped in a hallway by Shit McGrey and the clown and I punch him in the face to get rid of him. He can just say "oh good, escalation" and proceed to beat me into crit. I never asked for this "fun minor conflict" that now just put me into medbay for 10+ minutes but the instigator got exactly what he was looking for. I just wanted to do my job, but somebody not assigned actual antagonist status was given antag-lite via our escalation policy to take me functionally out of the game for the sin of being too close to them in a hallway when the need to griff struck him. The standard model for escalation favors the instigator in this case though. Disarm/Push > Victim punches via harm > Instigator harms into crit.

What I haven't managed to get from this is what was added to the game experience generally that has improve the experience? The instigator got to griff within the rules. The victim got taken out of the round until medbay could put him back together. Tops instigator gets a couple minutes in the brig but probably not since sec usually has more to do than chase some random hallway brawl over nothing and probably never gets reported either. The victim essentially just has to "deal with it" as an IC issue and generally just gets a raw deal out of it.
Spoiler:
A lot of this wouldn't even be an issue if we didn't have so many unassigned assistants in rounds where even basic department roles aren't being filled but that needs its own thread.
Interesting enough, I had a full "escalation" experience shortly after I posted my last message here. Before people chime in to say "policy is the new ban requests", I didn't ahelp, I don't want them banned, I don't even know their character name.

Low pop, only modes extended and traitor, and it wasn't extended. I'm a roundstart scientist, I walk into dorms to grab the air pump there, and I cross an Unknown in a chicken suit who's just leaving dorms. As I'm reaching for the pump, Chicken Man turns back, wields a flash, and comes towards me. Now, earlier I heard the CE say over the radio that the clown was a menace, and this guy looked like a clown (they didn't say a word during the whole engagement, so they may have been a mime). He's obviously coming to flash me, so I disarm him and run away. He follows, still trying to flash, so I wear my welding goggles and I manage to grab the flash but he starts pushing me back, so I run to the bar hoping he wouldn't keep fighting me if we are in a crowd.

Chicken Man follows and we start a disarm fight, which eventually involves bar patrons as well who don't know who is the aggressor and who's the defender. I never once used harm intent, with the specific purpose to avoid escalation and to give him the benefit of doubt. He's the first to switch from disarm to kicks and punches, and by then I'm sure I must be his assassination target. He tables me, I punch him back, patrons punch me, Pun Pun joins the fight, finally I'm critted. A bar patron drags me to medbay and leaves me there to die. My corpse is ignored until Chicken Man walks into medbay and grabs it.

"Well, there we go, he's gonna finish the job". But here's the plot twist. He drags me to cloning. He waits for the cloning process, then he puts me in cryo, strips my old corpse and leaves all my stuff carefully piled up outside the tube. Now, under our vague escalation policies, he could've just gibbed me since I was the one who started the fight by disarming him (the logs would have confirmed it) or I could've went back for round 2 (and lose again due to my unrobustness) since he was the first to use lethal damage. Or I could've spent even more time ahelping, or trying to summon an admin from IRC, yet more time arguing in the eventual ban appeal and so on. I just gathered my things instead and went back to work.

The moral of the story is: there will always be non antag shitters who want to mess with you and yes you're gonna lose a good portion of the round dealing with them. But when it's all over, before you want to move to the next step (ahelps, IC retaliation, policy threads etc,) ask yourself "Do I really want to waste even more time over this stuff?". You're gonna find out that the answer is "No, I fucking don't."
User avatar
Owegno
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:53 pm
Byond Username: Owegno
Location: Western Freedonia

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Owegno » #253402

D&B wrote:If you're gonna fix escalation rules fix the mess that is the "You stole from my department when I wasn't even working, therefore you're now free valid. Over. Bend"
I'll actually fix that. In-fact now that you mention it I think the current attitude towards escalation comes from the seventh rule 1 precedent. Unless a headmin tells me there has been a change or someone points to some resolved policy thread that states such a change I'll try and rewrite them around how the rules used to be enforced, hopefully in a manner that allows for IC conflict without it the possibility of it being awful for the defender/victim. Granted this could take me a bit since this is super low on my priorities.
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Cobby » #253521

TheNightingale wrote:
Grazyn wrote:Second one, burden on whoever started shit. You start (non-lethal) shit with someone, they come to settle the issue, even if they use lethals first you're just supposed to roll over, die and accept your death, or run away. If you don't, and end up killing them, you get banned for killbaiting because you were the one who started shit with them.
That sounds fair to me. If you don't like it, maybe... don't start shit with people?
Yeah follow the CYA [Cover Your Ass] protocol for doing anything. Don't steal from anywhere, ask. If no one is present, go to the HoP and ask for a job change so you can manage the area [or ask for a custom job so you don't get dunked on misinformation]. If none of that is possible, then do what you "have" to do BUT UNDERSTAND YOU MAY GET WRECKED DUE TO MISINFORMATION.
D&B wrote:If you're gonna fix escalation rules fix the mess that is the "You stole from my department when I wasn't even working, therefore you're now free valid. Over. Bend"
See Above. If that's too much work, then the item is probably not important enough for you to take [hoarding items '''just in case''' is lame anyways]
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
onleavedontatme
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
Byond Username: KorPhaeron

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by onleavedontatme » #253530

It's a pain in the ass on low pop to go ask a HoP that might not exist, only to have them ask for a stamp from a head of staff that also might not exist, just so you can get whatever item it was for doing your job.

You don't have to be a powergaming griefer to want chems as a botanist or to do RD as a miner for example, and it doesn't help anyone if the geneticist/xenobiologist comes and lynches you for doing a job that nobody else was doing.
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Cobby » #253544

Kor wrote:It's a pain in the ass on low pop to go ask a HoP that might not exist, only to have them ask for a stamp from a head of staff that also might not exist, just so you can get whatever item it was for doing your job.

You don't have to be a powergaming griefer to want chems as a botanist or to do RD as a miner for example, and it doesn't help anyone if the geneticist/xenobiologist comes and lynches you for doing a job that nobody else was doing.
You can have chems as a botanist without stealing the dispenser [also you don't need 500u of Mutagen, get what you need then leave so the chemist has some energy to work with whenever they may join]. However, I've taken the dispenser before and have given it back when a chemist joins in case they need both, and always try to tell people i'm taking it so if there are MDs or CMOs they can object [i'm not even fully following CYA and I'm not dead!]. I leave it where it's easy to be seen, I return it when asked, and It's never gotten violent.

It DOES get violent when people hide the dispenser or take it without even mentioning what they're doing. That's on them [CYA]. As seen on my earlier post [like 2 before iirc], if you make an effort to ratify the situation I believe you should be protected [and in reality most people won't mind as opposed to this boogeyman where everyone is checking off the laundry list hoping you've done the right ones so they can boot you out of the round].

If a HoP is being overbearing, then you can explain to the miner [who probably doesn't care because there's like 5 over lockers available] that you were simply trying to progress your job. You can put the stuff back after you've gotten minerals and people won't bat an eye. If you're mining you don't really need all the equipment either, just get what you need to mine minerals. The assumption that people see "valids" and exploit these at every possible corner is why we have rule 0 and why we keep these rules vague so admins can act on good faith if the player is not.

Lowpop is loose on what would normally be seen as tiding anyways since everyone knows there are roles left unfilled that may be vital to that particular round [especially for Sci/Mining]. We purposefully leave the rules non-specific for this very reason since we understand situations may be different and trying to black-white something just creates line-toeing, right?

Just act in good faith and/or COVER YOUR REAR.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by CPTANT » #256368

So how far are you supposed to go against security officers trying to arrest you for actually no reason?


Because if I actually did nothing (and no, no DINDU NUFFIN) and a security officer tries to taze me without explanation I would give them only slightly more leniency then someone else doing so.

I would stun them and disengage, but if they persist there will definitely come a point where I will just kill them, since after tazing sec you are pretty much on the capital punishment list anyway.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
onleavedontatme
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
Byond Username: KorPhaeron

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by onleavedontatme » #256370

Honestly just go to space or lavaland and ignore the rest of the round (maybe try PDAing the HoS or Captain), because security will kill you if they catch you like you said, but they're "just doing their jobs" and "only trying to arrest you" if you fight back with any effectiveness so you'll probably get a note or ban.
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by CPTANT » #256379

Kor wrote:Honestly just go to space or lavaland and ignore the rest of the round (maybe try PDAing the HoS or Captain), because security will kill you if they catch you like you said, but they're "just doing their jobs" and "only trying to arrest you" if you fight back with any effectiveness so you'll probably get a note or ban.
probably correct.

Which is exactly the reason why I have always advocated for lifting the ridiculous admin protection security has.

If there is one group that doesn't need protection it is security.

No other group is so capable of resolving things IC.

And when you lose that IC resolution once in a while anyway you shouldn't cry about it.


Like noted before this also leads to that strange meta where nobody retaliates against antags that pose as security because they fear getting banned.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
User avatar
Grazyn
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
Byond Username: Grazyn

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Grazyn » #256393

CPTANT wrote:So how far are you supposed to go against security officers trying to arrest you for actually no reason?


Because if I actually did nothing (and no, no DINDU NUFFIN) and a security officer tries to taze me without explanation I would give them only slightly more leniency then someone else doing so.

I would stun them and disengage, but if they persist there will definitely come a point where I will just kill them, since after tazing sec you are pretty much on the capital punishment list anyway.
Before you go on a rampage please take into account that usually sec officers are doing this because you were set to arrest and showing as wanted on their hud. This can happen due to a variety of reasons, maybe someone framed you, or your prints were on a crime scene, or a random assistant with all access and sechuds decided to set you to arrest. You don't know this, and most of the times the officer doesn't know either. But this doesn't matter to the lowly officer, they see you are wanted and taze you. Now, if you immediately start resisting/disarm them as soon as they pull out the tazer or take any other hostile action, they will have their confirmation that you are indeed rogue. If you don't resist, odds are that you will be let go after a quick search. Or you may end up spending 20 minutes in the brig trying to explain your side to some dumb redshirt. But if you resist you are just guaranteed to get a bad time from sec.

Now, I never play officer unless it's high pop and it's the only job still available, but when I do I will always check the records to see why the guy I just arrested is set to wanted, if there's no reason I will ask on the radio, and if no one can answer me I will let them go. I try to see the situation from the other guy's POV. Being arrested without knowing the charge is shitty.
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by CPTANT » #256419

Grazyn wrote:
CPTANT wrote:So how far are you supposed to go against security officers trying to arrest you for actually no reason?


Because if I actually did nothing (and no, no DINDU NUFFIN) and a security officer tries to taze me without explanation I would give them only slightly more leniency then someone else doing so.

I would stun them and disengage, but if they persist there will definitely come a point where I will just kill them, since after tazing sec you are pretty much on the capital punishment list anyway.
Before you go on a rampage please take into account that usually sec officers are doing this because you were set to arrest and showing as wanted on their hud. This can happen due to a variety of reasons, maybe someone framed you, or your prints were on a crime scene, or a random assistant with all access and sechuds decided to set you to arrest. You don't know this, and most of the times the officer doesn't know either. But this doesn't matter to the lowly officer, they see you are wanted and taze you. Now, if you immediately start resisting/disarm them as soon as they pull out the tazer or take any other hostile action, they will have their confirmation that you are indeed rogue. If you don't resist, odds are that you will be let go after a quick search. Or you may end up spending 20 minutes in the brig trying to explain your side to some dumb redshirt. But if you resist you are just guaranteed to get a bad time from sec.

Now, I never play officer unless it's high pop and it's the only job still available, but when I do I will always check the records to see why the guy I just arrested is set to wanted, if there's no reason I will ask on the radio, and if no one can answer me I will let them go. I try to see the situation from the other guy's POV. Being arrested without knowing the charge is shitty.
Which is exactly the reason why these things should be an IC issue.

I dont KNOW if someone is arresting me for a legitimate reason (from his end) or that I am getting turned into changeling food. Therefore I should have the CHOICE of going with someone to the brig or escalating by resisting arrest.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
User avatar
cedarbridge
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by cedarbridge » #256568

This really just sounds like "sec arrested me for a reason I wasn't communicated so I assaulted the officer and saxed, do I get to kill them now?"
User avatar
Screemonster
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:23 pm
Byond Username: Scree

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Screemonster » #256803

If the police have to chase you, they're bringing an asskicking with them.
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by CPTANT » #256867

cedarbridge wrote:This really just sounds like "sec arrested me for a reason I wasn't communicated so I assaulted the officer and saxed, do I get to kill them now?"
"A random person in maintenance tazed me and is now absorbing me, should I politely ask them the reason for shooting a tazer at me?"
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
User avatar
Qbopper
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:34 pm
Byond Username: Qbopper
Github Username: Qbopper
Location: Canada

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Qbopper » #256915

CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:This really just sounds like "sec arrested me for a reason I wasn't communicated so I assaulted the officer and saxed, do I get to kill them now?"
"A random person in maintenance tazed me and is now absorbing me, should I politely ask them the reason for shooting a tazer at me?"
those are indeed two different quotes, I fail to see any relevance

A rando tazing and absorbing you is "fuck I'm going to die right here and now", how does that equal "sec arrested me and didn't tell me why"?

I'm probably missing something obvious but I don't see the parallel
Limey wrote:its too late.
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by CPTANT » #256960

Qbopper wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:This really just sounds like "sec arrested me for a reason I wasn't communicated so I assaulted the officer and saxed, do I get to kill them now?"
"A random person in maintenance tazed me and is now absorbing me, should I politely ask them the reason for shooting a tazer at me?"
those are indeed two different quotes, I fail to see any relevance

A rando tazing and absorbing you is "fuck I'm going to die right here and now", how does that equal "sec arrested me and didn't tell me why"?

I'm probably missing something obvious but I don't see the parallel
I guess you've been used to that all seeing admin eye too much if you assume everyone can tell if someone has malicious intent when he whips out a tazer and shoots at you.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
User avatar
Qbopper
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:34 pm
Byond Username: Qbopper
Github Username: Qbopper
Location: Canada

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Qbopper » #257051

CPTANT wrote:
Qbopper wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:This really just sounds like "sec arrested me for a reason I wasn't communicated so I assaulted the officer and saxed, do I get to kill them now?"
"A random person in maintenance tazed me and is now absorbing me, should I politely ask them the reason for shooting a tazer at me?"
those are indeed two different quotes, I fail to see any relevance

A rando tazing and absorbing you is "fuck I'm going to die right here and now", how does that equal "sec arrested me and didn't tell me why"?

I'm probably missing something obvious but I don't see the parallel
I guess you've been used to that all seeing admin eye too much if you assume everyone can tell if someone has malicious intent when he whips out a tazer and shoots at you.
There's no need for passive aggressive comments. You seem to be saying "I got cuffed and brought to brig without being told why in front of witnesses" is the same as "I got tazed, cuffed, brought into maint, and murdered by a greyshirt" is the same thing, and maybe I misunderstood you, but that's the impression I got

It's hard to convince people of your point of view when you start to insult them
Limey wrote:its too late.
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by CPTANT » #257454

Qbopper wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
Qbopper wrote:
CPTANT wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:This really just sounds like "sec arrested me for a reason I wasn't communicated so I assaulted the officer and saxed, do I get to kill them now?"
"A random person in maintenance tazed me and is now absorbing me, should I politely ask them the reason for shooting a tazer at me?"
those are indeed two different quotes, I fail to see any relevance

A rando tazing and absorbing you is "fuck I'm going to die right here and now", how does that equal "sec arrested me and didn't tell me why"?

I'm probably missing something obvious but I don't see the parallel
I guess you've been used to that all seeing admin eye too much if you assume everyone can tell if someone has malicious intent when he whips out a tazer and shoots at you.
There's no need for passive aggressive comments. You seem to be saying "I got cuffed and brought to brig without being told why in front of witnesses" is the same as "I got tazed, cuffed, brought into maint, and murdered by a greyshirt" is the same thing, and maybe I misunderstood you, but that's the impression I got

It's hard to convince people of your point of view when you start to insult them
The last moment you get to make any sort of decision on whether to resist or not is before you get tazed. So yes getting tazed by one person is exactly the same the same as the other because you are 100% at the mercy of whoever tazed you in both cases.

tazed = dead
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
User avatar
Grazyn
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
Byond Username: Grazyn

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Grazyn » #257461

To everyone saying that sec shouldn't deal with wanted suspects by stunning them first, asking questions later, I suggest you go play sec for a few rounds and make a pledge to never use stuns against suspects without extensively talking to them first. Tell me how it goes. No, if you're a celebrity player with half the station as metabuddies it doesn't count, use a random name.
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by CPTANT » #257469

Grazyn wrote:To everyone saying that sec shouldn't deal with wanted suspects by stunning them first, asking questions later, I suggest you go play sec for a few rounds and make a pledge to never use stuns against suspects without extensively talking to them first. Tell me how it goes. No, if you're a celebrity player with half the station as metabuddies it doesn't count, use a random name.
Is anyone here saying that?
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
User avatar
Grazyn
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
Byond Username: Grazyn

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Grazyn » #257472

I dont KNOW if someone is arresting me for a legitimate reason (from his end) or that I am getting turned into changeling food. Therefore I should have the CHOICE of going with someone to the brig or escalating by resisting arrest.
This was in response to me saying that officers usually see that someone is wanted and the first thing they do is stun him. You say that they should first inform you so that you can choose to go to the brig. If you see them whipping out a tazer you're going to disarm them and eventually kill them and yadda yadda yadda

So I say, try to behave like you think a perfect officer should and you'll find out that it's impossible to actually arrest someone, in the worst case you're giving them the upper hand and you just end up dead.

So let's say we go with your policy and everyone is now allowed to resist arrest (they already are btw) and kill officers when they start coming (and they don't stop coming), how do you think it's gonna end? Massive burnout, last competent sec players leaving the job, sec replaced by oblivious hubbies, and so the cycle begins anew
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by CPTANT » #257475

Grazyn wrote:
I dont KNOW if someone is arresting me for a legitimate reason (from his end) or that I am getting turned into changeling food. Therefore I should have the CHOICE of going with someone to the brig or escalating by resisting arrest.
This was in response to me saying that officers usually see that someone is wanted and the first thing they do is stun him. You say that they should first inform you so that you can choose to go to the brig. If you see them whipping out a tazer you're going to disarm them and eventually kill them and yadda yadda yadda

So I say, try to behave like you think a perfect officer should and you'll find out that it's impossible to actually arrest someone, in the worst case you're giving them the upper hand and you just end up dead.

So let's say we go with your policy and everyone is now allowed to resist arrest (they already are btw) and kill officers when they start coming (and they don't stop coming), how do you think it's gonna end? Massive burnout, last competent sec players leaving the job, sec replaced by oblivious hubbies, and so the cycle begins anew
I am not saying security personnel should inform you at all, asking people to come to the brig or submit to a search is the best way to get shot in the face. The entire point is that there are CONFLICTING interests. The security officer doesn't want to get shot in the face, I don't want to get tazed and submitted to whatever that person has planned for me.

Resisting the arrest should be an IC choice with IC consequences. And I make that choice depending on the IC information available: Does something look suspicious, did I commit a crime, was I remotely involved in something, is the arrest occuring in a public area, general state of the station, etc.

If it is my judgement that resisting getting tazed is in my interest than escalation occurs. But currently that one of both parties in that escalation has a tremendous amount of OOC protection.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
User avatar
Grazyn
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
Byond Username: Grazyn

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Grazyn » #257480

I see your point but we're still gonna need some boundaries, or it's gonna be easily abused to killbait. I don't want to make the usual "dey just doin dem jobs" argument, but an officer tazing a wanted guy isn't the same thing as, say, a scuffle between a chemist and botanist because they stole his chem dispenser. Tazing wanted guys is literally their job. If everyone is allowed to resist arrest and escalate into murder without any kind of OOC repercussion, I fear we're gonna end up to the good ol' days when sec was just a punching bag for assistants and greytiders in general
User avatar
CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by CPTANT » #272464

I think this thread is another good example of how shit our escalation rules have become:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... ead#unread

Injecting someone with lethal poison for entering a department once even after someone left that department -> ok

Defending against that -> LOLNO BANBAIT YOU TRESPASSED
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
User avatar
imblyings
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm
Byond Username: Ausops
Location: >using suit sensors

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by imblyings » #272467

That's an entirely inaccurate representation of what happened and I'm not glad you posted it.

The responding admin, myself, and another more older admin both said the CMO was out of bounds. That's why the CMO was warned. But after an admin has intervened OOC, there is no need for the player to retaliate. Cedar failed to tell the other player that he had intervened OOC sure, but that situation was not an argument against escalation rules. If anything, they were correctly applied.

If you want to discuss policy please discuss it factually.

edit-

there are actual issues to be resolved in regard to the escalation rules but Cedar's complaint has nothing to contribute to this thread.
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.
User avatar
imblyings
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm
Byond Username: Ausops
Location: >using suit sensors

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by imblyings » #272513

Oldman Robustin wrote: I think the answer is close to what we see in the real world, our standard would permit people to use "reasonable force" in self-defense. The implicit understand would be that the initial attacker cannot escalate the confrontation with the justification of "self defense" in response to legitimate self-defense by the victim. Like the real world, self defense doesn't mean revenge, if the fight ends then your ability to use violence against the person who attacked you should diminish. That also means we should probably clarify what is tolerated for revenge since we tolerate revenge much more than the real world does. When I say real world I'm not trying to make SS13 or its playstyle more "realistic", I'm just trying to align our rules with what makes sense when our expectations for in-game behavior come close to the expectations we'd have in real life, its simply the easiest way for players to understand what the rules mean.
I was going to tldr but this does make sense and is already available for convenient quoting.
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.
User avatar
cedarbridge
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by cedarbridge » #272608

imblyings wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote: I think the answer is close to what we see in the real world, our standard would permit people to use "reasonable force" in self-defense. The implicit understand would be that the initial attacker cannot escalate the confrontation with the justification of "self defense" in response to legitimate self-defense by the victim. Like the real world, self defense doesn't mean revenge, if the fight ends then your ability to use violence against the person who attacked you should diminish. That also means we should probably clarify what is tolerated for revenge since we tolerate revenge much more than the real world does. When I say real world I'm not trying to make SS13 or its playstyle more "realistic", I'm just trying to align our rules with what makes sense when our expectations for in-game behavior come close to the expectations we'd have in real life, its simply the easiest way for players to understand what the rules mean.
I was going to tldr but this does make sense and is already available for convenient quoting.
This sounds entirely within reason and squares with my own understanding of self-defense justifications.
onleavedontatme
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
Byond Username: KorPhaeron

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by onleavedontatme » #272650

imblyings wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote: I think the answer is close to what we see in the real world, our standard would permit people to use "reasonable force" in self-defense. The implicit understand would be that the initial attacker cannot escalate the confrontation with the justification of "self defense" in response to legitimate self-defense by the victim. Like the real world, self defense doesn't mean revenge, if the fight ends then your ability to use violence against the person who attacked you should diminish. That also means we should probably clarify what is tolerated for revenge since we tolerate revenge much more than the real world does. When I say real world I'm not trying to make SS13 or its playstyle more "realistic", I'm just trying to align our rules with what makes sense when our expectations for in-game behavior come close to the expectations we'd have in real life, its simply the easiest way for players to understand what the rules mean.
I was going to tldr but this does make sense and is already available for convenient quoting.
Unlike the real world we are not trying to create a functioning society though.

We are trying to create a dysfunctional society for the sake of drama and storytelling. In the real world you don't want a janitor being beaten to death because they forgot a wet floor sign. In SS13 it's tradition.

Also in real life you can't break into someones house then kill them in self defense when they attack you, but our escalation rules as currently written seem to apply that such action is allowed in our game.
User avatar
Luke Cox
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:52 am
Byond Username: NocturnalQuill
Location: Prisoner Transfer Room

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Luke Cox » #272653

Does any of this really matter so long as you don't actually kill the person?
Image
User avatar
Qbopper
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:34 pm
Byond Username: Qbopper
Github Username: Qbopper
Location: Canada

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Qbopper » #272681

Luke Cox wrote:Does any of this really matter so long as you don't actually kill the person?
You can remove someone from the round without killing them, though
Limey wrote:its too late.
User avatar
Luke Cox
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:52 am
Byond Username: NocturnalQuill
Location: Prisoner Transfer Room

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by Luke Cox » #272698

Qbopper wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:Does any of this really matter so long as you don't actually kill the person?
You can remove someone from the round without killing them, though
Okay, within reason of course. As long as you don't remove someone from the round unless they try to remove you, does any of this really matter?
Image
User avatar
FantasticFwoosh
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 11:25 pm
Byond Username: FantasticFwoosh

Re: Can anyone write some better escalation rules?

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #274313

Without reading prior thread, id say pretty the below scenario applies.

Fistfight/GBH or manhandling = Touching you is fine - touching them back is fine (attempting to push back) - A few friendly swipes of the fist in a playscuffle = But as soon as they draw first blood or your face has about 15 points of damage leading into greivous bodily harm then its actually a fight, if they take your weapon its also a fight to no quarter unless they give up after getting robusted.

Some people are way too touchy, and percieve every bodily interaction to be a fight. If a assistant actively tries to disarm your weapon that can cause bodily harm (stun baton) then you are in your right to harmbaton them a few times as punishment as long as you only lightly bruise them.

Spoiler:
Image
Image
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users