Latejoin being all security slots/Assistant cap

[DrPillzRedux]

This is pretty cancerous. HoP's these days tend to remove all other jobs open for sign-up and switch them all to sec. This ends up with sec being looted to nothing as people are forced to join as sec, go get free shit from sec, then abandon the job entirely. It's basically making security public access with all the braindeads that pop up because of it.

Also prevents late join antags.

Edit: It's likely the cap on Assistants causing this. FIX THIS!

[Cy294]

Agreed, if the HOP sets it so only one job is open, assistant slots should open automatically.

[DemonFiren]

I believe preventing late-join antags is half the point.

[Incomptinence]

They shouldn't have the time to close all the jobs isn't it a 5 minute cool down?

[Davidchan]

Wait there is a way to prevent people from joining as assistant? That sounds counterintuitive to the role and game. Seems like this should be directed to coderbus first and policy second.

[Lumbermancer]

Isn't assistant unavailable until other jobs are taken?

[Owegno]

You can only latejoin as assistant if there are less than 5 assistants or no other job is open.

[bandit]

I believe preventing late-join antags is half the point.

*parades through the station with a picket sign reading 'THIS IS WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU DISABLE ANTAG FOR ONE ROLE'"

[WarbossLincoln]

I believe preventing late-join antags is half the point.

even for our extreme low RP that's some metagaming BS.

[Reece]

That's funny as fuck though.

[Cobby]

I believe preventing late-join antags is half the point.

*parades through the station with a picket sign reading 'THIS IS WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU DISABLE ANTAG FOR ONE ROLE'"

No, the real issue is trying to balance a game for a community who has one server that does well for having rounds over a hour, and another that constantly pushes hour thirty - 2 hour mark [at least used to and does whenever I join the server].

On sybil, this is rarely a problem since most rounds don't provide that many windows of opportunities to edit the job slots [because of the cooldown].

On basil [i'm assuming], this can easily be done when the HoP is twiddling his thumbs waiting for "roleplay" or conflict to occur in his office.

Unless you want to have configs for every feature that bases itself on the typical round length [in this case, the HoP job edit cooldown], you're just going to have to or ban people for using the feature that wasn't designed for the lengths of rounds basil typically endures.

[Wyzack]

I know that i am a bit out of touch as i have not played much the past few weeks but does Basil really still have more roleplay and longer rounds with 90 fucking people on peak times and around 60 the rest of the time?

[Jacough]

Sounds like something people should be banned for.

[Cobby]

I know that i am a bit out of touch as i have not played much the past few weeks but does Basil really still have more roleplay and longer rounds with 90 fucking people on peak times and around 60 the rest of the time?

Everytime I get on it the rounds drag on longer and nearly every traitor is doing their job instead of creating issues.

Maybe I need to get on basil more when it's like 70 players and see how it fares.

[D&B]

Yeah rounds are still fucking long.

[onleavedontatme]

I know that i am a bit out of touch as i have not played much the past few weeks but does Basil really still have more roleplay and longer rounds with 90 fucking people on peak times and around 60 the rest of the time?

It comes down to round type and who is the captain. I have been in severnal 1.5-2 hour high pop rounds in the past week or so.

[Okand37]

Generally the only time I see people doing this as a head of personnel is when they're an antagonist. If they're not, usually the tsunami of adminhelps alerts us of the problem and we ask them to stop then open up more job slots (sometimes on the last part)

[lzimann]

I think the problem is that: Assistant slots are limited and will only open when all the other jobs are filled. On the other hand you have security officer, which the slots scales with the population, so the interaction might be a little weird between both jobs.

[Cobby]

just go sec officer and switch jobs from the HoP tbqh.

[Jembo]

This real issue is that they're not opening up 9 clown slots, and 9 mime slots for a clown / mime race war.

[DrPillzRedux]

just go sec officer and switch jobs from the HoP tbqh.

This is still preventing late antags. It's creating assistans with sec gear.

Just bring back unlimited assistant slots.

[Screemonster]

just go sec officer and switch jobs from the HoP tbqh.

This is still preventing late antags. It's creating assistans with sec gear.

Just bring back unlimited assistant slots.

do the antag roll when they join anyway and if they happen to be a sec officer give it to some other random player

[Incomptinence]

I don't think hops are even planning this shit when the station is full and you open any job slot it will lock assistant off. So maybe get rid of that dumb setting?

[Owegno]

I know that i am a bit out of touch as i have not played much the past few weeks but does Basil really still have more roleplay and longer rounds with 90 fucking people on peak times and around 60 the rest of the time?

I find the only difference between adminning Sybil and Basil during prime freedom hours are the names I recognize and amount of admins on.

[Cobby]

just go sec officer and switch jobs from the HoP tbqh.

This is still preventing late antags. It's creating assistans with sec gear.

Just bring back unlimited assistant slots.

I'm not seeing the issue when basil runs extended most of the time and people tend to do very little with their antag anyways, often making it pseudo-extended. It's pretty clear antagonists are not exactly the focus point on the basil server [it is actually one of the main advertisement points when comparing it to Sybil], so denying the ability to join as one after everyone else has fullpowers, healing viruses, rnd maxed, etc. doesn't really seem like that big of a deal to me. I would say this would very much impact sybil where antags heavily define the round and the progress made is heavily defined by a player's competency in the job, but that would imply sybil would allow a HoP enough time to effectively do this.

If you want to roll antag, then come when the round starts :^)
There was a time when there wasn't any midround antags, people still joined and played the game.

"but this makes it hard to do traitorous things when there's more security around" -- If you aren't going to do anything antagonistic to begin with [which you clearly haven't if you've allowed the HoP to rack up all these slots and close literally every other job] then I doubt you're all of a sudden going to feel inclined to do it as soon as you see the announcement console blare out several security officer's at once.

Again, this issue is entirely preventable if the current antagonists would *DO* something antagonistic.

I don't think hops are even planning this shit when the station is full and you open any job slot it will lock assistant off. So maybe get rid of that dumb setting?

This is probably what's actually occuring, as I doubt even with basil rounds lasting longer that HoPs are effectively doing this.

Then again, the obvious issue here is that you didn't join soon enough, so just join as an officer and wait it out [again, you can go to the HoP to change your job]. You don't need an antag role everytime you join the game, particularly when you're on a roleplay-oriented server [THE roleplay-oriented server in our community].

[DrPillzRedux]

The issue is having to fucking join as sec, be you a new player, bad player, or whatever. Sec gets fucked from those who then join and go braindead, get their ID and gear stripped by anyone, sec gets looted, etc.

This is an issue and how you're plugging your ears screaming BUT BUT BUT is just dumb.

[Cobby]

The issue is having to fucking join as sec, be you a new player, bad player, or whatever. Sec gets fucked from those who then join and go braindead, get their ID and gear stripped by anyone, sec gets looted, etc.

This is an issue and how you're plugging your ears screaming BUT BUT BUT is just dumb.

so dont join if you hate sec so much that you can't go on it then go to the HoP to get your jobchanged to <not sec>? There's typically something to do as ghosts anyways.

Saying "THIS IS AN ISSUE" does not make it any more/less an issue. It's a feature in the game that can only be fully utilized to the degree you're referring to if people are treating it like pseudo-extended [or it is actually extended] and are drawing out the round to the fullest extent in order to [from what I usually see] make themselves as unstoppable as possible. You stop it by being antagonistic, not by getting them banned.

[DrPillzRedux]

I have never seen selective reading so hard before, my god.

Let me break it down in short segments so you can process it.

It's not just not wanting to play sec.

It's new people being forced to sign up as sec.

It's people who will loot sec, run around with a sec ID while not acting as sec.

It's people who sign up, get bored, then go braindead in the halls with a sec ID and gear.

It's forcing latejoin antags to be null.

It's ruining security.

BBBUT JUST GET AN ID CHANGE

No. You are missing the entirw point. Actually read my post.

[DrPillzRedux]

This is practically every latejoin game on basil. This is 31 minutes in.

[Owegno]

This is practically every latejoin game on basil. This is 31 minutes in.

Adminhelp it honestly. If there is a HoP closing slots randomly as non-antag that's pretty dickish.

[DrPillzRedux]

Adminhelp it honestly. If there is a HoP closing slots randomly as non-antag that's pretty dickish.

Admins don't seem to understand the problem with this, because I did and this was the response.

Admin PM from-Duncdar: While I'm sorry you feel that way, you can always observe or play on Sybil. Unfortunately, being high-pop really limits mid-round job slots.

Then change the security scaling of slots if that's the issue or re-enable assistant joins instead of this cancer. At least they'll be assistants that don't start with brig access.

[Owegno]

Seems the issue is not with HoP's closing slots then but the whole assistant cap change.

[bandit]

The issue is people metagaming by forcing the only open slot to be the only role that can't be antag.

[oranges]

Admin PM from-Duncdar: While I'm sorry you feel that way, you can always observe or play on Sybil. Unfortunately, being high-pop really limits mid-round job slots.

What did he mean by this?

[Incomptinence]

Honestly any job past normal the hop opens will "force" people to be that and not assistant. Asscap begone.

[Duncdar]

Adminhelp it honestly. If there is a HoP closing slots randomly as non-antag that's pretty dickish.

Admins don't seem to understand the problem with this, because I did and this was the response.

Admin PM from-Duncdar: While I'm sorry you feel that way, you can always observe or play on Sybil. Unfortunately, being high-pop really limits mid-round job slots.

Then change the security scaling of slots if that's the issue or re-enable assistant joins instead of this cancer. At least they'll be assistants that don't start with brig access.

I apologize for not understanding the situation that you had described, but the issue entirely flew over my head. When you had stated it was cancer and "it's just shit HoP's and shitty security scaling code," it seemed you were venting in ahelp, which isn't uncommon. I assumed there was some problem related to the code's "security scaling," as you had mentioned, and the aforementioned HoPs failing to adjust late-join spawns.

Since neither of us had followed through after that last comment, I felt that (despite my apparent misunderstanding) all was well and there wasn't an OOC issue outside of it being code-related. I will certainly be more vigilant in watching for these kinds of problems in the future, though! Thanks for bringing it to my attention, since I would've been clueless of what was going on otherwise.

Admin PM from-Duncdar: While I'm sorry you feel that way, you can always observe or play on Sybil. Unfortunately, being high-pop really limits mid-round job slots.

What did he mean by this?

We may never know.

[Screemonster]

How about disallowing the HoP from opening the same slot twice in a row?

Or open an assistant slot for every actual job slot, or make it open them two at a time and force them to be different roles.

[WarbossLincoln]

Or just remove the assistant cap. You can't force someone to actually do the job that's open. They're going to join as whatever is available and fuck with stuff with whatever access/gear that job has.

[firecage]

cmspano, or they just might not even join if assistant isn't open, since they played the other jobs so bloody much, they get bored of them extremely easily, and they just want to play simple jobs with no real responsibilities or expectations like assistant, clown, or mime, or librarian.

[Cobby]

Spoiler:

I have never seen selective reading so hard before, my god.

Let me break it down in short segments so you can process it.

It's not just not wanting to play sec.
ok, I said pretty explicitly you can get your job change.

It's new people being forced to sign up as sec.
not a problem nor an argument because, again, you can get your job changed.

It's people who will loot sec, run around with a sec ID while not acting as sec.
you can't "loot sec" after the limited amount of lockers have been used up. It's not a bannable offense for person X to take the blame because person Y isn't doing their intended job, nor is it even a bannable offense for person Y to not do their job unless it happens consistently [which again isn't person X's problem]. It doesn't even matter if everyone carried a sec baton when antagonists have done nothing and continue to do nothing to create conflict in the round outside of a greytider, which probably isn't going to be an issue since everyone has the same gear he does. If you want to wait until you're a mighty slimehulkdwarf with max viruses, then you need to realize nonantagonists have also progressed in their department as well and can use that against you.

It's people who sign up, get bored, then go braindead in the halls with a sec ID and gear.
THEY can get a secban then. The HoP is not at fault for an officer going braindead in the halls with secgear.

It's forcing latejoin antags to be null.
not a problem in basil, already mentioned this.

It's ruining security.
not an argument

BBBUT JUST GET AN ID CHANGE
yes do this

No. You are missing the entirw point. Actually read my post.
you haven't really made an impressive argument for why I need to ban a HoP for doing something that takes a large amount of time [probably less as populations get higher, which if you want to argue the actual cooldown of the feature then we can talk (not in policy though)] when no one has made any move to do anything antagonistic. It's like banning geneticists for giving out powers to security only, and he can do it at roundstart if he's lucky as well. Give these people something to do outside of their job when you're the antagonist and they won't be able to progress far enough to nullify your efforts as one.

There is no obligation to do the job you signed up for outside of Head Roles [and you can just shoot the admin a PM if you don't want to do the job]. This extends to security.

JUST
GET
AN
ID
CHANGE
or ghost [there's several ghost roles as said earlier] or switch servers and play a quick round or two.

Or better yet just ask for a cooldown increase on the feature if people, after all this time, have found out they can manipulate it advantageously.

I still have doubts this is even being used maliciously. HoPs are probably just opening sec slots [not a bannable offense] and the others are getting filled, resulting in the remaining slots to be just sec. Welcome to high pop, sybil will gladly take more users if you don't like the large population of basil !

[confused rock]

sec only is too confusing and challenging for new players (WHO THOUGHT ASS CAP WAS A GOOD IDEA)

[oranges]

yes the Assistant cap was very high on sybil for this very reason. I don't' know why the admins are not lifting it, as it's very easy to change.

[imblyings]

HGs legacy

[Shadowlight213]

Unless it was changed, new players have a grace period in which they are allowed to bypass the assistant cap. So, the argument of new players being forced to play sec doesn't really hold much ground.

I suppose we could do some logging to double check, but it seems that it's just all the job slots getting filled up, not hops closing them all.

There are alternative options, you just simply are refusing that consider them.

Also, a removal of the assistant cap seems unlikely. I recall mentioning removing it at one point and even MSO being in favor of keeping the cap.

[Davidchan]

Honestly I don't see the need for the ass cap, it may reduce greytiding a bit but really if someone wants to tide they are going to tide regardless of job title. There may be another reason for the cap but it's beyond me, it's hardly ss13 to me if half the active crew isn't wearing grey.

As for only opening sec/antag protected spots, seems like power gaming and just another reason to bring back antag sec.

[Saegrimr]

if someone wants to tide they are going to tide regardless of job title.

That just makes it more noticeable and easier to ban them for. :^)

[Arianya]

IMO this is as bad as it being all security, especially when its so early into the round and I seriously doubt every position is filled.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

It is also worth noting that in highpop rounds it is very likely that all the roles but sec (especially if HOP boosts the sec role cap) will be taken, since a lot of players dislike playing sec and will pick anything else or even ghost

[oranges]

IMO this is as bad as it being all security, especially when its so early into the round and I seriously doubt every position is filled.

Yes but at least new antags will be injected into the round as needed.

[Incomptinence]

If we didn't have the stupidity of asscap we could have sec who made the antag roll come in as assistants.